OS Book Club Pt II

[KSUowls]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

Day 1 with Infinite Jest and what in the world is this book?

I'm 70 pages in, which is really 140 pages, which is really 200 pages. Normal Kindle pages are 2 turns to 1 page in the book, this is 4. Also, there are footnotes. Yes, footnotes in a fiction book. I knew about this before but really getting into the book I actually started laughing at one point. I was in like the 3rd page of a 15 page footnote, and I realized that the footnote had a footnote in it. This will be fun. I would say this is my white whale but I think it'd actually be much easier to read Moby Dick than this.

Surprised by footnotes in a fiction book? Clearly you've never read House of Leaves lol.

Spoiler

If you don't get the reference, just do a google image search for House of Leaves. Some page examples show up in the first few results.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

Surprised by footnotes in a fiction book? Clearly you've never read House of Leaves lol.

Spoiler

If you don't get the reference, just do a google image search for House of Leaves. Some page examples show up in the first few results.

My Google search led me to see it described as "literary quicksand" lol, I can't imagine how reading that must be.

[KSUowls]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

My Google search led me to see it described as "literary quicksand" lol, I can't imagine how reading that must be.

Yes imagine reading through a chapter, then suddenly you hit 5 consecutive pages each with a single word or sentence, or having the paragraphs suddenly turned sideways or upside down, or having annotations inserted in big blocks in the middle of a sentence. I honestly don't remember anything about the plot, I only remember the eccentric formatting.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

So I just finished Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee: An Indian History of the American West by Dee Brown . I mean, what's there to say?

It's essentially a textbook, but doesn't read like one. It, to me at least, was much less dry and surprisingly interesting than I expected. Obviously there are a tons of names and dates that can easily be mixed up and forgotten, but the big picture is hard to miss. The reason the details are often hard to pin down is the stories are so similar.

Spoiler

Spoiler

"Hey, that's some nice land you got over there. Wanna let us mine it?" - American

"The land isn't ours. It's everyone's so we can't decide who gets to go where. Just try to keep in mind that we all need to use this land." - Native

"No worries. We're just gonna destroy the trees, build a bunch of stuff to run off all the animals you guys need to survive, and then start building houses so that we can move in. Just sign this paper with all these crazy characters on it because you don't speak the language and trust me. " - American

I think the systematic nature of it all is almost shocking but then less so over time. What struck me is the time period, between 1860 and 1890. At the same time, America was enslaving black people, exterminating the Indians, and fighting themselves.

I did gain somewhat of an appreciation for Native American culture. We learn about them (at least the Powhatans and the Virginia Natives) in school but it's in somewhat of a mythological state so it's hard to grasp. There are a lot of firsthand quotes both from the natives and the settlers that show the contemporary feelings at the time, which I thought was useful. Shows the true opinions of Americans toward the Indians, and the number of ways propaganda was used to paint the picture of them as a whole.

The thing it brought me to was when I was reading Blood Meridian, I think I said something like I didn't really understand why it would be considered a Great American Novel because it didn't portray America as I had known it, or how we generally portray ourselves. But having read this book, it's almost frightening to say that the moral depravity and callousness towards "others" was pretty well described. You could've taken a scene right out of BM that you thought was too graphic and found a parallel from a massacre that actually took place.

The stars of the book are obviously the Natives. Just a very interesting culture to come up against. The way they call everything Great (God is the Great Spirit, the president is The Great Father, and my favorite, General Sherman is Great Warrior Sherman), the true appreciation and reverence towards all the things that make up nature, the way they kinda resigned themselves to accepting things that were bigger than them. It's an interesting outlook. Felt similar to the Stoics, who I'll be reading more from next year (Seneca is one people have been throwing at me).

Spoiler

"So tractable, so peaceable, are these people that I swear to your Majestic there is not in the world a better nation. They love their neighbors as themselves, and their discourse is ever sweet and gentle, and accompanied with a smile; and though it is true that they are naked, yet their manners are decorous and praiseworthy." - Christopher Columbus

" I saw one squaw lying on the bank whose leg had been broken by a shell; a soldier came up to her with a drawn saber; she raised her arm to protect herself, when he struck, breaking her arm; she rolled over and raised her other arm when he struck it, breaking it, and then left her without killing her. There seemed to be indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children."

"Say to us if you can say it, that you were sent by the Creative Power to talk to us. Perhaps you think the Creator sent you to dispose of us as you see fit. If I thought you were sent by the Creator, u might be induced to think you had a right to dispose of me. Do not misunderstand me, but understand me fully with reference to my affection for the land. I never said the land was mind to do with it as I chose. The one who had the tight to dispose of it is the one who has created it. I claim a right to live in my aldn, and accord you the privilege to live on yours." - Chief Joseph of the Nez Perces

" I told the officer that this was a very bad business; that it was very bad for the commissioner to give such an order. I said it was very bad; that we ought not to fight, because we were brothers, and the officer said that that didn't make any difference; that Americans would fight even though they were born of the same mother." - Nicaagat of the White River Utes

" The agreement that an Indian makes to a United States treaty is like the agreement a Buffalo makes with his hunters when pierced with arrows. All he can do is lie down and give in." - Chief Ouray of the Utes

" In whatever capacity you may be here today, if you decide to say anything to us we will listen to you; otherwise, we will dismiss this council.'' Yes, that is all right,' Sitting Bull said,' You have conducted yourselves like men who have been drinking whiskey, and I came here to give you some advice.' He made a sweeping motion with his hand, and every Indian in the council arose and followed him out." SITTING BULL THE ORIGINAL MALCOM X

"We had begged for life, and the white men thought we wanted theirs." Red Cloud of the Oglala Sioux, I thought that one was especially profound

"I did not know then how much was ended. When I look now from this high hill of my old age, I can still see the butchered women and children lying heaped and scattered all along the crooked gulch as plain as when I saw them with eyes still young. And I see that something else died there in the bloody mud, and was buried in the blizzard. A people's dream died there. It was a beautiful dream... The nation's heap is broken and scattered. There is no center any longer, and the sacred tree is dead." - Black Elk

I especially appreciate the glimpses into Native American culture and their ideology, made me want to see how it's survived into the present day so I've added Navajos Wear Nikes a Reservation Life to my list among others. Next up is Pachinko by Min Jin Lee, about a Korean family that moves to Japan. From one very different culture from my own to another.

Edit: My mind came back to Rushmore. I knew it's in South Dakota. I just read the Black Hills are sacred to the Natives. Was basically crossing my fingers and whispering dontbeintheblackhills dontbeintheblackhills dontbeintheblackhills while I went to Wikipedia. Yup. In the Black Hills.

Also found out there's a book called "The Sixth Grandfather" which is the transcripts of conversations he had with an author (who wrote another book called Black Elk Speaks that is apparently very distorted). That should be a very interesting read.

After slowly moving through this the first month or so I finished up the remaining 3/4 this past weekend. Considering one of the first five chapters is the Massacre at Sand Creek it's a hard book to "push through" or read in bulks like a novel or glossy-coated history book.

Like Jalen above me stated this book doesn't read like a typical history book. It's not dry nor does it come across as merely repeating a chronological timeline of events. It reads like a narrative - if that narrative were a factual story on the last events of the most powerful tribes in America. Perhaps because we are taught close to nothing about these events or really any Natives outside of Powhatan (which was interesting to see subjugated in this book as a white sympathizer and sell-out) these events were interesting, but to me it's history is rich for a broad spectrum of reasons; establishing a small viewpoint on a culture where little is ever shown, the absolute madness of "Manifest Destiny", the bloodthirstiness of the Army after the Civil War, the price of "progress", and the low-balling greed and inhumanity of a self-proclaimed great Empire.

Despite these events occuring 150 years ago they still resonate with modern relevance to me considering foreign policy events and sabre rattlings. The ability of the U.S. to manipulate the rules in order for them to gain land and wealth isn't surprising to me, but the genocide of a noble race of people, while concurrently exterminating natural livestock and resources is devastating to read in such detail. The systematic nature of it speaks in a deafening tone in each chapter. Sign a treaty. Violate that treaty. Sign another treaty. Violate that treaty. Repeat until you kill them off with bullets or broken homes. Each chapter I was hoping against logic for a "old age death" for many of these great chiefs (Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Geronimo, etc), but all of their ends except Red Cloud's were senseless, inhumane, and depressing.

One of the most interesting points in the book was that Ely Parker aka Donehogawa drafted the surrender of the Confederacy. As much as we covered the Civil War in school I never knew that a Native American drafted the surrender at Appomattox.

I received a nice stack of additional reading on these events, but I have no motivation to dive into this further right now. I think I need a break of something a bit more lighthearted, but I'm not sure what that will be yet.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

It kinda made me go back and think about what I learned about the Civil War, to find out Grant had a Native American friend he thought of so highly to appoint him the leader of Native Affairs and that he also signed the draft are things I would think are useful to know.

Also the Malcolm X parallel in that he wanted to be a lawyer, and was told he could never be that because it wasn't for his kind.

Makes you curious of all the others lost in history.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

I definitely want to read more about Ely Parker. The small chapter about him was interesting. He worked towards becoming a lawyer up to the point of taking the bar exam, but was denied? No problem - I'll be a civil engineer. He just happens to meet and befriend the future General and POTUS Grant.

Not only were his circumstances interesting and unique, but his tenacity is inspiring.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

I was given an Amazon gift card for my birthday that has been burning a hole in my pocket. As such I've been circling around some books since I looked at my shelf this weekend and nothing really popped out. I will probably start Two Towers this weekend, but looking ahead to the year my shelf seems shallow.

I went through my "Want to Read" shelf on Goodreads and have come up with this small selection:
Blood Meridian - Cormac McCarthy
Little Fires Everywhere - Celeste Ng OR Sing Unburied Sing - Jesym Ward
A Monster Calls - Patrick Ness
The Martian Chronicles - Ray Bradbury

I have a bunch of non-fiction on my shelf that I haven't read yet so I should be set there for the most part on the rest of the year, but I will try to work in some Carl Sagan (not sure where to start really), Deer Hunting With Jesus by Joe Bageant, and The Color of Law.

As for the rest of the year on the fiction front I want to get acquainted with some more literary giants (Morrison, Angelou), revisit some literary classics (Lord of the Flies, Of Mice & Men, The Great Gatsby), test out a couple series (The Emperor's Blade trilogy, Protector of the Small), and try to get at least one or two new 2018 books whatever they may be.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

I think Amazon gift cards automatically convert to Kindle credit whenever someone buys one for me, I just start picking out randoms from my list.

To do a better job keeping up with the years titles, I'm gonna try to read a new release fiction book every month. I'll get backlogged along the way, like this month I don't know if I'll get to anything other than IJ, but I want to get my 12 done by the end of the year. Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are the series that jump out to me, but Kingkiller Chronicle is up there.

I think my biggest random priority is to try and finish my Great American Novel list. For someone who loves history, being able to read books that do such an amazing job at capturing a time period is awesome.

Infinite Jest is so... I don't even know the word. I just really enjoy the way DFW wrote.

Spoiler

About tennis: "The true opponent, the enfolding boundary, is the player himself. Always and only the self out there, on court, to be met, fought, brought to the table to hammer out terms. The competing boy on the net's other side: he is not the foe: he is more partner in the dance. He is the what is the word excuse or occasion for meeting the self. As your are his occasion. Tennis's beauty's competitive roots are self competitive. You compete with your own limits to transcend the self in imagination and execution. Disappear inside the game: break through limits: transcend: improve: win. Which is why tennis is an essentially tragic enterprise, to improve and grow as a serious junior, with ambitions. You seek to vanquish and transcend the limited self whose limits make the game possible in the first place. It is tragic and sad and chaotic and lovely. All life is the same, as citizens of the human State: the animating limits are within, to be killed and mourned, over and over again."

On the transition from telephone to video calls (written in 1996) :" It was an illusion and the illusion was aural and aurally supported: the phone lines other ends voice was dense, tightly compressed, and vectored right into your ear, enabling you to imagine that the voice owner's attention was similarly compressed and focused... even though your own attention was not, was the thing. This bilateral illusion of unilateral attention was almost infantilely gratifying from an emotional standpoint: you got to believe you were receiving somebody's complete attention without having to return it. Regarded with the objectivity of hindsight, the illusion appears arational, almost fantastic: it would be like being able both to lie and to trust other people at the same time."

There's a chapter where a dude going through withdrawals is flipping out at things not going so right way, and you're so far inside his head during the whole thing you almost want to start scratching your damn self. Just incredible.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

I think Amazon gift cards automatically convert to Kindle credit whenever someone buys one for me, I just start picking out randoms from my list.

That would piss me off so much lol.

To do a better job keeping up with the years titles, I'm gonna try to read a new release fiction book every month. I'll get backlogged along the way, like this month I don't know if I'll get to anything other than IJ, but I want to get my 12 done by the end of the year. Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are the series that jump out to me, but Kingkiller Chronicle is up there.

One book a month would be overshooting a realistic goal for me though I did tinker with that thought for a second. I've been running through 2018 Book lists and bookmarking a handful that sound interesting to me. Unfortunately two come out in January and I know I won't get to them this month. For me, I figure if I could do at least 6 new releases that would be a good marker considering I had 1 last year.

This is what I have saved:

Spoiler

The Perfect Nanny - Lelia Slimani
Circe - Madeline Miller
Red Clocks - Leni Zumas
Speak No Evil - Uzodinma Iweala
Invitation to a Bonfire - Adrienne Celt
Children of Blood and Bone - Tomi Adeyemi (I will most likely pre-order this one)

[WaitTilNextYear]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

Just finished Darth Plagueis by James Luceno. Onto Tarkin by the same author. Getting some Star Wars reading in. Luceno is one of those authors that condenses 1 paragraph worth of stuff into 5 paragraphs, but he's not bad. Sometimes flowery language and repetitiveness can be a turnoff, but the stories and characters are entertaining enough. It was cool seeing the lineage of Darth Sidious/Palpatine and how he came to be on the cusp of Galactic Emperor (which is where Darth Plagueis ends up, somewhere during Episode I).

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

The only book off the top of my head that I for sure want to read that comes out this year is The Female Persuasion by Meg Wollitzer. A podcast host I listen to loves her, and my girlfriend loved The Interestings, so I'll have to see what's there. After that, I'm more a blank slate. So many of the anticipated books I saw were labeled as YA, I don't know how to feel about that. I've not read any young adult books to know how they differ from old (regular?) adult books. I feel like there's kids books and adult books and I dunno how much I want to see what an attempt to bridge that gap looks like.

I've heard only good things about Tarkin. Of all the new EU books, that and Lost Stars are the ones I see the most praise for.

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

The only book off the top of my head that I for sure want to read that comes out this year is The Female Persuasion by Meg Wollitzer. A podcast host I listen to loves her, and my girlfriend loved The Interestings, so I'll have to see what's there. After that, I'm more a blank slate. So many of the anticipated books I saw were labeled as YA, I don't know how to feel about that. I've not read any young adult books to know how they differ from old (regular?) adult books. I feel like there's kids books and adult books and I dunno how much I want to see what an attempt to bridge that gap looks like.

I noticed that, too, along with the majority of them featuring a female protagonist and/or written by female authors. Of course it doesn't matter, but I just found it interesting. Perhaps it was the sites I was looking at.

Young Adult I feel like is such a broad genre. Obviously Harry Potter is a shining example, but the age range is wide. Is Goosebumps YA or more of a kid's series? What about Wizard of Oz? I feel like the quality of writing is so uneven across the board it always makes me hesitant before bookmarking a YA book/series. Then again I guess any genre's quality of writing is uneven.

To me YA basically just means the protagonist is typically a maturing child from the ages of 12-17. Outside of those parameters it's really open game as some of the themes explored in even the books mentioned above are fairly adult and mature. Harry Potter feels like a rarity in that the series matured along with the reader. To me it doesn't matter what the genre is so long as the read isn't inherently shallow or childish. That's ultimately my hesitation when I'm recommended YA books or see them on "must read" lists.

With that said I'm legit excited for Children of of Blood and Bone. The early reviews I've read say it deals with fairly mature themes. I've seen similar praise for The Monster Calls, too.

I'm not a terribly picky reader, but the quality of writing will make or break a book obviously. I could read The Mouse and the Motorcycle or Matilda one hundred times, but I would balk at reading Dan Brown more than once (or once depending on the book).

Anyway, I should finish up Being Mortal (which is a very interesting read) by/on Friday. I'm hoping to jump into Two Towers, but Blood Meridian might come barreling through since I just finished Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

Harry Potter to me is decidedly a children's book, but that's probably a function of the time I read it, the series ended when I was 14. Even googling young adult just has too many meanings. For some people, it's books aimed at younger adults, for others, it's books dealing with younger adults. To some Catcher in the Rye is clearly the best young adult book out there and to others it doesn't count because it was written for adults. Is Lord of the Flies a young adult book? Is Huck Finn?

Normally when I'm browsing and see something labeled as YA it just comes off as watered down adult fiction. I'll need to read one to shake that feeling.

I'm glad Blood Meridian and Bury My Heart were spread out for me, I wouldn't have wanted any part of one right after the other.

[KSUowls]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

To me a YA novel is more about the age of the protagonist than it is about any story content. I actually think a lot of YA novels have very compelling plots. The problem is I've noticed a lot of YA author's just aren't very good writers. I've especially noticed that when it comes to female author's writing about female protagonists where a gritty, survivor mentality strong female lead ends up in some distraught emotional state half way through the story without any compelling reason.

I was a big fan of the Hunger Games book series which would be considered YA. Ignoring the ripoff of Battle Royale, I thought Suzanne Collins did a great job of implementing all the things I would expect of a good 'adult' fiction novel. There was suspense, character development, dark themes, and vivid imagery. Though I will say that even she fell into a bit of the YA trap in the first half of Catching Fire, but then Katniss was back on track. Any emotional breaks she had after that were very believable.

But then you have other stories like Divergent (awful) and Eragon (mediocre) which have a lot of fanfare, but they do not have good writing. The genre is very hit or miss.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: OS Book Club Pt II

I'm considering picking up a companion book for IJ to make sure I'm catching everything. Elegant Complexity is the one I see recommended the most. This is almost bookception. Never would've imagined I'd be getting a 500 page book for the sole purpose of better understanding an 1100 page book.