YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

[jamesbeaver]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

So ... I am Frankfurt and I am leading 1:0 late in the match ... and then this happened ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0Wpm2we8uk

Wow ... FIFA'd.

Yeah, I have recently come to the conclusion that momentum scripting includes a drop in user players' stats in addition to an increase in CPU stats. I wonder if EA game developers understand how amazingly much better this game would become if they simply removed those pieces of code.

As for your longer video, had the chance to watch it partially. I am seeing a lot of good there, one example being your guts to keep possession. But I assume that since we're trying to improve our playing here, it would be productive to comment on things that don't go too well.

A striking feature is still the large number of interceptions by the CPU. This isn't to say that I could avoid those myself; you'll see counter examples soon. In Fifa it is difficult to know which passes are high risk because of issues with user players freezing and CPU momentum scripting. I have recently tried to start thinking about which passes would be absolutely safe, and prefer those passes under many conditions. Emphasis on "trying" here, because my success varies.

But I think that any long term success will require me to take seriously the fact that pass interception by the CPU is OVERPOWERED in this game. It takes some fun out of the playing, because it will make me avoid passes that a real footballer would make. But the alternative is probably worse.

[jamesbeaver]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

I have two videos for you guys here. They are from the same match, the last match I have played in my CM.

The first one is shorter and more entertaining. This doesn't happen to me on any regular basis in manual play.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vWF8xqV07NU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The second one is longer and more on topic. It illustrates, at times at least, the kind of offensive play that I try to develop. Looking for space. Sort of reminds me of that old commentator line: "Germany is asking questions." The small-scale movement of my offensive players is still not fluid enough, but I am working on it.

The possession-style of play in this video doesn't mean that I don't try to counterattack if it is possible, but I am wary of CPU's überhuman interception capabilities. In the video you can also see what happens immediately after I lose possession in midfield.

The video does not represent the kind of defensive play I would like to achieve. That will be my next focus area. I have just switched from legacy to tactical defending. I won't be using the contain-button, but I need the push-pull to slow down the offensive play of the CPU. But the goal the CPU scores there... I actually defend well in that situation, but the ball just bounces from my defenders right into the feet of the CPU player. You know...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-0s7qYXUDzk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[SpHSpH]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

What's GK set to?

I am playing with GK @ 60/60 ... I am using the same settings that you are using for your career mode (higher pass speed 60/60, higher injuries 90/90, higher shot speed 51/51, higher fullback 100/100, higher first touch 100/100).

[Matt10]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

I am playing with GK @ 60/60 ... I am using the same settings that you are using for your career mode (higher pass speed 60/60, higher injuries 90/90, higher shot speed 51/51, higher fullback 100/100, higher first touch 100/100).

Sweet, glad you gave it a go. The 60 GK has been great for me. Those issues like yours come up on all GK ability levels, kind of unfortunate, bonehead plays do happen - but that was a bummer.

I'll watch the other vids as well, intrigued by James' approach as well.

[bad_philanthropy]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

Yeah, I have recently come to the conclusion that momentum scripting includes a drop in user players' stats in addition to an increase in CPU stats. I wonder if EA game developers understand how amazingly much better this game would become if they simply removed those pieces of code.

As for your longer video, had the chance to watch it partially. I am seeing a lot of good there, one example being your guts to keep possession. But I assume that since we're trying to improve our playing here, it would be productive to comment on things that don't go too well.

A striking feature is still the large number of interceptions by the CPU. This isn't to say that I could avoid those myself; you'll see counter examples soon. In Fifa it is difficult to know which passes are high risk because of issues with user players freezing and CPU momentum scripting. I have recently tried to start thinking about which passes would be absolutely safe, and prefer those passes under many conditions. Emphasis on "trying" here, because my success varies.

But I think that any long term success will require me to take seriously the fact that pass interception by the CPU is OVERPOWERED in this game. It takes some fun out of the playing, because it will make me avoid passes that a real footballer would make. But the alternative is probably worse.

You pretty much nailed exactly how the AI is designed—especially in career mode.

It is a remnant (intended or otherwise so legacy it is forgotten and not tuned) of the "emotional system." Here's the internal EA doc from FIFA 07 describing how it works and its broad rationale and implementation.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9qclf62zlw9yd7r/Fifa%20Emotional%20System.pdf?dl=0

EDIT: I should add, skip to page 6 and go from there for the really gruesome details.

[Matt10]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

So ... I am Frankfurt and I am leading 1:0 late in the match ... and then this happened ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0Wpm2we8uk

Wow ... FIFA'd.

And here is the complete match (sorry - not edited yet - a long video) ...

Frankfurt(HUM) v Hamburger(CPU)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIhEOyU5xac

Yeah, I watched the full match this time, and yes that GK blunder was junk. The animation looked like he was saving it for a goal-kick because the defender deflected the pass. Could be a FT Control thing, but who knows.

Regarding your gameplay. I think you played well. You do a good job of playing the "obvious" ball. Like I would absolutely love playing with you IRL if I was your Striker, because passes to feet would happen on the daily - would be great.

Problem is that FIFA adapts to your playstyle quickly, this is why interceptions for the CPU occur much easier. You have got to keep them on their toes.

On the event that led to the goal. You made a direct pass that was miscontrolled. The LB had several option as he was being pressured, here I would have just sent a through ball, or chipped through ball, down the sidelines and try to hit that corner flag. Once you get into the 80th minute, it's time to set up shop, change tactics, change formation, send long balls towards the corner flags. I saw that even after conceding, your defender was being pressured after your goalkick, you opted to pass across the 18-yard box (which is the ultimate No-No as a defender) instead of just clearing it.

Take more chances, play the obvious "to feet" ball when you want, but don't be afraid to mix it up - like a lot. Find a CAM and make him do all the mixing of plays (like USA have Bradley to do this), and then you'll get used to it. THe outside backs, IRL, clear the ball down the sidelines a lot more than people believe, regardless of what league they play in, so definitely try that a lot more.

If you look at the matches I posted, you don't see the CPU score in the 45 or 90 minute, and if/when they do - it's my fault for not recognizing when to shift my focus, or play safe and hoof the ball out there for safety.

[SpHSpH]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

===== ===== =====
Yeah, I watched the full match this time, and yes that GK blunder was junk. The animation looked like he was saving it for a goal-kick because the defender deflected the pass. Could be a FT Control thing, but who knows.
===== ===== =====

Right ... my CB did touch the ball on its way toward my GK ... but if my GK was concerned about a back-pass, why would he play it with his hands at all? (Note - I do not think that would have counted as a back-pass IRL.) It was just a dribbler on its way to my GK ... you can hear me ... I certainly thought he was just going to gather that up and the threat would have been finished.

===== ===== =====
Regarding your gameplay. I think you played well. You do a good job of playing the "obvious" ball. Like I would absolutely love playing with you IRL if I was your Striker, because passes to feet would happen on the daily - would be great.

Problem is that FIFA adapts to your playstyle quickly, this is why interceptions for the CPU occur much easier. You have got to keep them on their toes.
===== ===== =====

Yep - this is something that I am aware of - I play very safe (and repetitive). I am comfortable in possession and do not feel a need to always blast forward with the ball. My biases are (1) to keep the ball on the ground, (2) to usually play predominantly in the bottom third of the screen (Right side or left side depends on the half), and (3) I try to get the ball all the way into the 6-yard box before I try for a shot.

===== ===== =====
On the event that led to the goal. You made a direct pass that was miscontrolled. The LB had several option as he was being pressured, here I would have just sent a through ball, or chipped through ball, down the sidelines and try to hit that corner flag. Once you get into the 80th minute, it's time to set up shop, change tactics, change formation, send long balls towards the corner flags. I saw that even after conceding, your defender was being pressured after your goalkick, you opted to pass across the 18-yard box (which is the ultimate No-No as a defender) instead of just clearing it.
===== ===== =====

Also something that I am aware of ... I need to just "punt it" more often late in a match. Winning 1:0 or winning 2:0 are both three points ... not really any need to get cute with the ball in the last quarter of an hour when I am protecting a lead. I have real trouble scoring at all ... what are the odds that I am actually going to *ADD* to my lead in the final minutes?

===== ===== =====
Take more chances, play the obvious "to feet" ball when you want, but don't be afraid to mix it up - like a lot. Find a CAM and make him do all the mixing of plays (like USA have Bradley to do this), and then you'll get used to it. The outside backs, IRL, clear the ball down the sidelines a lot more than people believe, regardless of what league they play in, so definitely try that a lot more.
===== ===== =====

Again - true - this is why I routinely beat the CPU in possession (even though many players usually complain about how hard it is to keep the ball / win it back from the CPU) - I am risk-adverse ... and I (1) rarely make an aggressive but low-percentage pass when I am on offense or (2) just clear the ball, instantly giving possession back to the CPU, when I am in a jam on defense. I should be willing to sacrifice some of my possession advantage if it translates into an overall better outcome.

- - -

I had totally done a nice job in editing the most recent match down from 45 minutes to 13 minutes ... but then I realized that somehow I had lost the HD nature of my video file ... and it looked dumpy when I posted it to my YouTube site. I am trying to quickly recreate the highlight video and get that back up later this afternoon.

[SpHSpH]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

OK ... it took all afternoon ... but I think I *finally* put together an edited manager mode video. Here it is ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWI2aPQqm9Y

I will be switching back over to the EPL tonight ... [ Swansea City v Crystal Palace ] will be on the cards.

[jamesbeaver]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

You pretty much nailed exactly how the AI is designed—especially in career mode.

It is a remnant (intended or otherwise so legacy it is forgotten and not tuned) of the "emotional system." Here's the internal EA doc from FIFA 07 describing how it works and its broad rationale and implementation.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9qclf62zlw9yd7r/Fifa%20Emotional%20System.pdf?dl=0

EDIT: I should add, skip to page 6 and go from there for the really gruesome details.

That is one sad document to read. No sports game will ever achieve true greatness as long as it has such a momentum system built in. Periods of awe will be killed by events lame beyond description, where the momentum decides the outcome, not ball physics, stats or your actions.

Furthermore, there would be an easy and cheap fix for this: just give us an option to turn player emotions off. PES has it in exhibition matches, but even they have so far refused to add the same option to leagues or master league. And, not surprisingly, PES players are (also) completely pi$$ed off by scripting. Well, those few who still play it this year probably aren't.

I have yet to meet a person who would think that player emotions, as they are implemented now, are a good idea. I would still like to know whether the developers at EA live in a state of delusion: do they not know that practically all experienced players would love to see this system scrapped?

[SpHSpH]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

I just keep posting my match videos in this thread. I wish that I could do more from the "tutorial" perspective - but at least I can share my full manual game play and my commentary about what works / does not work for me.

Here is SWA:CRY in Round 23 of my EPL season ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYkEYMrfFko

A little "same old, same old" ... I struggle to score goals.

- - -

I am not efficient at editing these down to bite-size highlights ... that will probably need to wait until the end of the weekend.

[bad_philanthropy]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

Great videos. I see a lot of my own frustrations in the footage—namely players not going after a ball in their immediate vicinity that they are looking straight at. Also, the amazing cpu defensive backtracking, and then re-establishment of an attacking posture all over the outfield in an instant.

One thing I can note from your videos is the absence of basic skill moves. On WC and Legendary the ball roll, and LB fakes have a bit of an overpowered effect of discombobulating the AI defensive structure after you beat a man with them in a 1 on 1. It also seems to draw more defenders in.

For some reason I find a skill move win causes a lot more chaos in the cpu structure than LS dribbling (either on its own or in conjunction with LT+RT, or just LT). Part of me thinks it's a slightly over-emphasized tuning of the new no touch ball fakes mechanic.

I am by no means a "skiller," but I've had to use some of the basics a lot more this year since it seems to create more space and overlaps.

[SpHSpH]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

One thing I can note from your videos is the absence of basic skill moves. On WC and Legendary the ball roll, and LB fakes have a bit of an overpowered effect of discombobulating the AI defensive structure after you beat a man with them in a 1 on 1. It also seems to draw more defenders in.

For some reason I find a skill move win causes a lot more chaos in the cpu structure than LS dribbling (either on its own or in conjunction with LT+RT, or just LT). Part of me thinks it's a slightly over-emphasized tuning of the new no touch ball fakes mechanic.

What is an "LB fake"?

Yeah - I am also the farthest thing from a "skiller" - but I have, in the past, tried to use some of the most basic one-star moves (ball rolls and feints). Even then I am still not sure if I am doing it right or what the correct "timing" of when, in relation to the position of the CPU defender, I should do the move. I am supposed to completely release the LS before I try to do a move with the RS, right? My player could still be moving (inertia), even if I have removed my thumb from the LS, while he performs the basic skill move. Or I can come to a complete hard stop, and then perform a skill move, and follow that with a quick re-start in my motion with the LS.

I have not really done much with the "no touch ball fake mechanic" ... but you make a fair point ... the "new thing on the back of the box" is always overdone as to force players to use it. Harrumph.

[jamesbeaver]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

OK ... it took all afternoon ... but I think I *finally* put together an edited manager mode video. Here it is ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWI2aPQqm9Y

I will be switching back over to the EPL tonight ... [ Swansea City v Crystal Palace ] will be on the cards.

Nice video, and your own comments really add another level. If you're commenting on the fly, I am amazed by how calm you are during the match.

Editing is fun but time-consuming.

[Matt10]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

If anyone follows my Manager Mode, look away, but here is the "raw" gameplay of my recorded footage last night for one of my episodes. I thought I'd contribute a bit to show how I play my matches. Skip ahead to see the match:

<iframe width="750" height="422" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9yLmkate7Oo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[jamesbeaver]

Re: YouTube Tutorials ... but Full-Manual and against CPU?

I just keep posting my match videos in this thread. I wish that I could do more from the "tutorial" perspective - but at least I can share my full manual game play and my commentary about what works / does not work for me.

Here is SWA:CRY in Round 23 of my EPL season ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYkEYMrfFko

A little "same old, same old" ... I struggle to score goals.

Skimmed through this to find some highlights. Great 2nd goal by Palace.

Regarding the result: one goal with four shots on target is very realistic. We, the audience, want more shots, more action!

Earlier you stated that you haven't had much success with crosses. Ok, I have GK 10 and you have 60, but I have recently scored some nice goals with headers. Which is the way it should be, because you can make your attempts very close to the goalie.