Feedback for fifa17 CTT

[andanesean]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

It's great to know that using different criteria/formulas we are getting identical results.



What criteria do you use to classify a high line (=offside) and a low line (=cover)? In my current simulation sliders I use line height max 75 and min 50.



Unfortunately FIFA doesn't allow us to set aggression related to field areas, like irl.



For my criteria I need numbers. I get all my data at whoscored and than make my personal interpretation of it and create the math to transform real life data into FIFA sliders.

Do you think a FIFA 17 low value for line length (for example, 40) allows a team be dangerous on counter-attack?

What criteria do you use to classify a high line (=offside) and a low line (=cover)? In my current simulation sliders I use line height max 75 and min 50.

Some values are straightforward others are interpreting.

I have taken the liberty and judge the teams who do the most interceptions, playing with high line, except if they use a defensive formation. But before I give them a high line of defense, I use the offside numbers to add. It will say the more times a team runs in the offside (remember we are talking about their attack not defense!) The higher they push on the field. In addition, the amount of goal in the field can be considered as a team playing the ball "in goal" (lesser high ball in fields) and thus the team is offensive oriented and together with the 2 other values makes sense to add the high defense line values for the team. But remember It is my interpretation and it can be argued for and against that I am well aware, but I think it works well. In doubt situations, I also use Whoscored as they directly describe the Teams who play with offside. But I do not always agree with their consideration of which teams are playing offside.

I use the number of blocked shots and clearance to assess on how deep the team's defense is. For me is 3-5-2 = low defense=35-30 , except for teams like Chelsea and the like that presses high even with 3-5-2. As I said, I also have the maximum defensive line height to 75, but I have no explanation for the limitation, just a feeling that it must be the Max value. - fun we agree again.

Do you think a FIFA 17 low value for line length (for example, 40) allows a team be dangerous on counter-attack

If you mean the height of the defense line, no. But I think one of the codes in the updates for FIFA17 made counterattack widely used that it is very easy to lose the ball, it is loose and lacks gravity. The way in which AI with 2-3-4 man chases the ball, It destroys realism in the game. If you mean lines width in sliders and generally, one would think that one narrow Line and hence compactness does not equate to counter football that often uses wings for this, but it can be interpreted in several ways I would think.

[ricardodc]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

For me is 3-5-2 = low defense=35-30 , except for teams like Chelsea and the like that presses high even with 3-5-2. As I said, I also have the maximum defensive line height to 75, but I have no explanation for the limitation, just a feeling that it must be the Max value. - fun we agree again.

So, is 30 the lowest value for line height you use?

If you mean the height of the defense line, no.

No, I mean Line length. I was asking if you think low line length values in FIFA 17 hurt teams counter-attack effectiveness. I am thinking about lowering length...

Example: Man City vs Burley

Burley Line length 45 and above...


Forwards don't give any defensive support.

Burley LL 20 (all other settings the same)...


Finally Forwards start to give some defensive support.

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[andanesean]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

So, is 30 the lowest value for line height you use?



No, I mean Line length. I was asking if you think low line length values in FIFA 17 hurt teams counter-attack effectiveness. I am thinking about lowering length...

Example: Man City vs Burley

Burley Line length 45 and above...


Forwards don't give any defensive support.

Burley LL 20 (all other settings the same)...


Finally Forwards start to give some defensive support.

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So, is 30 the lowest value for line height you use?

Deffensive pressure line, yes.

Let me start by saying that of course we will have comprehension problems sometimes, neither you nor I have English as their mother language, so we're doing pretty well.

I'm not sure there are lines that determine it, at least not on all parameters. Player instruction (forward stay ..) also means something. But not least, formations. If you play 5-3-2, you do not build your game on counter, but more deep defense along with a strong midfield. 3-5-2 stand not always deep, and can easily be used to counter football, see Chelsea.

Compared to your observations with Burnley vs. City. Where you lower with 20 in defense line the value, and see the attackers thus coming back and defending.If it is a fact that happens with other attempts, then it must mean that by lower def. line (20) , then the attack will be drawn (20) back and therefore defend, may well be the conclusion in this case, or what ?. But it must be tested with some matches before we can conclude anything at all and what about the code in the game that changes during some matches ?.

update
Elaborate right here ...

Imagine everything is at 50 and it's standard. If I lower the value to 30, does it mean that attackers are pulled back 20 ?. Is that a conclusion if it works ?.

[ricardodc]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

Deffensive pressure line, yes.

Let me start by saying that of course we will have comprehension problems sometimes, neither you nor I have English as their mother language, so we're doing pretty well.

[emoji1] And it's again the case. I was referring to line height (gameplay sliders) not CTTs.

I am not sure there are lines that determine it, at least not on all parameters. Player instruction (forward stay ..) also means something. But not least, formations. If you play 5-3-2, you do not build your game on counter, but more deep defense along with a strong midfield. 3-5-2 stand not always deep, and can easily be used to counter football, see Chelsea.

I agree about other parameters influence (formations, player instructions). That's why in my testings I only change one setting. In that case, Burley forwards where set to pressure defenders but once you pass their line they get useless defensively. That only changes when setting line length in the 20s.

Compared to your observations with Burnley vs. City. Where you lower with 20 in defense line the value, and see the attackers thus coming back and defending.If it is a fact that happens with other attempts, then it must mean that by lower def. line (20) , then the attack will be drawn (20) back and therefore defend, may well be the conclusion in this case, or what ?. But it must be tested with some matches before we can conclude anything at all and what about the code in the game that changes during some matches ?.

The only way to pull forwards back to help defending is by lowering line length (gameplay slider). Lowering defensive pressure doesn't do the trick.

Same situation. CTTs defensive pressure 1 and aggression 100.



Forwards don't defend.

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[andanesean]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

[emoji1] And it's again the case. I was referring to line height (gameplay sliders) not CTTs.



I agree about other parameters influence (formations, player instructions). That's why in my testings I only change one setting. In that case, Burley forwards where set to pressure defenders but once you pass their line they get useless defensively. That only changes when setting line length in the 20s.



The only way to pull forwards back to help defending is by lowering line length (gameplay slider). Lowering defensive pressure doesn't do the trick.

Same situation. CTTs defensive pressure 1 and aggression 100.



Forwards don't defend.

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Communication wise, we need to be clearer when we talk about CTT or Slider lines as you did with the last record.

And it's again the case. I was referring to line height (gameplay sliders) not CTTs.

Line Heights Sliders: In that case, the least I've played with is standard 50, but generally not under 60. Uses for the average OS Slides values.

We agree that Slider line has the crucial importance. Therefore if we put Slider Height line to 20, it's clear that attackers come down and defend because you Has pushed the line so deeply. The problem is that they are connected to each other H, L, W. Firstly, the entire formation is now closer to 1-5-5, and thus the midfield and attack destroyed. do not know what I'm doing differently, but I often see my attackers back and defend. At times I'm annoyed by how much they are coming home, and therefore sets the instructional parameter to them. But I can see what you mean and of course, especially defensive team attackers should help defend.

The only way to pull forwards back to help defending is by lowering line length (gameplay slider). Lowering defensive pressure doesn't do the
trick.

And that's good. There should also be other values that change the decision if the attacker comes home in defense.

I agree about other parameters influence (formations, player instructions). That's why in my testings I only change one setting. In that case, Burley forwards where set to pressure defenders but once you pass their line they get useless defensively. That only changes when setting line length in the 20s.

But it's in the code, they only do that in attack (To the center line) , their task is not to follow the defenders home. Firstly, they are (opponent) in the defense and it is not certain they participated in the attack, and would also look strange to me if they followed them all the way home.

Sliders Line height 20, for attacking to participate in the defense, I totally agree.
But !, the price of any other parameter is too high, it's not the way for me. As I said, I have not seen it and therefore did not notice whether it's my formations or instructions that do, I dont know?. But I'm continuing my CM to test it. It's good we communicate so much, but we're missing out on doing some tests for our questions, dont you think so?.

[ricardodc]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

Communication wise, we need to be clearer when we talk about CTT or Slider lines as you did with the last record.

I agree.

B]Therefore if we put Slider Height line to 20, it's clear that attackers come down and defend because you Has pushed the line so deeply.

They don't. They only come down to defend with lower values for line length. And seeing a team like Burley (or any other similar) facing a much superior team having 2 FCs that don't defend troubles me.

do not know what I'm doing differently, but I often see my attackers back and defend. At times I'm annoyed by how much they are coming home, and therefore sets the instructional parameter to them. But I can see what you mean and of course, especially defensive team attackers should help defend.

Can you take a picture or record a video showing that. Don't get me wrong. I am not doubting you. I just want to figure it out.

But it's in the code, they only do that in attack (To the center line) , their task is not to follow the defenders home. Firstly, they are (opponent) in the defense and it is not certain they participated in the attack, and would also look strange to me if they followed them all the way home.

They should not follow everywhere, but depending on the context they should give some pressure.

It's good we communicate so much, but we're missing out on doing some tests for our questions, dont you think so?.

True. I recorded my yesterday test on my YouTube channel. Please go check it out if you can and comment.

Cheers!



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[andanesean]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

They don't. They only come down to defend with lower values for line length. And seeing a team like Burley (or any other similar) facing a much superior team having 2 FCs that don't defend troubles me

Sliders Line Length is the distance from defense-midfield and attack. So if you see at 20 that they come back means that the closer (length) is (low number) the more they help in the defense. That was what I tried to formulate (failed) previous post. That when we put Line Lengh down/lower number (20), you push the midfield and attack further down the defense, and that's probably why you see attackers defend!. But again, it does not work because you pill at all 3 parameter defense-midfield attacks.

Can you take a picture or record a video showing that. Don't get me wrong. I am not doubting you. I just want to figure it out.

I will try to start a new CM to take some pictures to see if I can get my attacker to play defense.

[andanesean]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

Here are some pictures with CM S****horpe. Kevin Van Veen is the target attacker and Madden is right attacking and plays behind Veen in a 4-4-2. Pictures can always cheat but there is no doubt that they come down and defend, not least the target man Van Veen. This is on standard instruction, but it's really not so much because you never see them coming back and defending before (20). This is at Line Length Sliders user 50 and CPU 40.

[ricardodc]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

Here are some pictures with CM S****horpe. Kevin Van Veen is the target attacker and Madden is right attacking and plays behind Veen in a 4-4-2. Pictures can always cheat but there is no doubt that they come down and defend, not least the target man Van Veen. This is on standard instruction, but it's really not so much because you never see them coming back and defending before (20). This is at Line Length Sliders user 50 and CPU 40.

What value for marking are you using?

Did you watch my Spurs vs Everton test video? What do you think about it?

I think with this new compacter lines i will need to lower marking.

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[andanesean]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

What value for marking are you using?

Did you watch my Spurs vs Everton test video? What do you think about it?

I think with this new compacter lines i will need to lower marking.

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Have used user49 / cpu50 marking throughout the season. 49/50 or 50/49 is the code for strength difference in EA's FIFA. I've only seen a bit of it, with what I thought was good. By occasion I want to see something more to give an overall impression, 1½ hours is quite a long time Ricardo. . Would you like to use English next time, or just give me the numbers as it takes time and unnecessary resources to guess your values, Portuguese I do not understand, thanks.

[ricardodc]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

49/50 or 50/49 is the code for strength difference in EA's FIFA.

Care to elaborate? I don't think I've understood it.

I've only seen a bit of it, with what I thought was good. By occasion I want to see something more to give an overall impression, 1½ hours is quite a long time Ricardo.

Sorry. It was the test uncut, unedited.

Would you like to use English next time, or just give me the numbers as it takes time and unnecessary resources to guess your values, Portuguese I do not understand, thanks.

Today I changed to English. I played Liverpool vs Leicester. First half with the current marking values (simulation sliders 60/58 for those teams) and the second half with -10 (50/48). Let me know what do you think looks better. With this new values for lines, I am thinking about reducing marking by 10.

[andanesean]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

Care to elaborate? I don't think I've understood it.



Sorry. It was the test uncut, unedited.



Today I changed to English. I played Liverpool vs Leicester. First half with the current marking values (simulation sliders 60/58 for those teams) and the second half with -10 (50/48). Let me know what do you think looks better. With this new values for lines, I am thinking about reducing marking by 10.

What I'm saying is that 50/49 is the difference from strong to weak. Try and set acceleration and marking to 49/50 and you will discover how strong the CPU will be and vice versa weak at 50/49.

Marking 60: I do not see better defense compared to 50/50, on the contrary. May also be the low value for aggression in CTT (35) Liverpool.
Line H 60: Same as defence pressure CTT, fine.
Line L 38: I think 38 is too compacted, it will not be decompressed. The midfield seems to get squeezed together with the defense, see picture, sorry bad quality

2 Half: Leicester defend slightly weaker marking 50/48. At 2-2, there are 19 plays at Leicester half, they have two lines with 4x2 and yet scores Liverpool too easy.

Try marking 50/50 or 49/50, Line H 60-65 is fine.

[ricardodc]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

What I'm saying is that 50/49 is the difference from strong to weak. Try and set acceleration and marking to 49/50 and you will discover how strong the CPU will be and vice versa weak at 50/49.

I have a different interpretation. Acceleration controls how fast players react to events. It's very important and just 1 point difference has a big impact.
Marking defines zonal defense vs man to man marking (1 being the max zonal while 100 is the max for man to man marking). So, it's logical that marking relates to other sliders, like lines and CTTs. When lines are more open, marking slider needs to be higher and vice-versa. I don't think 1 point difference in marking to be significant.

Line L 38: I think 38 is too compacted, it will not be decompressed. The midfield seems to get squeezed together with the defense, see picture, sorry bad quality

I disagree. If you look back at post #114 (real life Benfica pics) you will see how compact lines (defenders and midfielders) are when defending. The only problem in FIFA 17 might be in the transition to attack. But, in my latest tests I didn't felt CPU offense weaker and counter attacks continue to be effective.

Cheers!

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[andanesean]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

I have a different interpretation. Acceleration controls how fast players react to events. It's very important and just 1 point difference has a big impact.
Marking defines zonal defense vs man to man marking (1 being the max zonal while 100 is the max for man to man marking). So, it's logical that marking relates to other sliders, like lines and CTTs. When lines are more open, marking slider needs to be higher and vice-versa. I don't think 1 point difference in marking to be significant.

It's always a question of interpretation, so it's ok to have different opinions about it. I agree with marking 1-100 values, and yes sliders affect each other, some more than others as we discussed.

When lines are more open, marking slider needs to be higher and vice-versa.

I may misunderstand so try and elaborate?. I'm not sure I agree with you that if lines are more open, Slider's values for marking should be higher ?. Because if we speak line length for Sliders, it's the distance of defense midfield and attacks that are affected with lower values, that value has no effect on the marking values.

I don't think 1 point difference in marking to be significant.

About marking the value 50/49 is crucial not 49/48 or 47/46, etc., that I stand by.

I disagree. If you look back at post #114 (real life Benfica pics) you will see how compact lines (defenders and midfielders) are when defending. The only problem in FIFA 17 might be in the transition to attack. But, in my latest tests I didn't felt CPU offense weaker and counter attacks continue to be effective.

I do not doubt Benfica play compact in all chains, they have a fairly high line and they play with offside. But in comparison to the lines in your video, I do not think they are being decompressed and both teams are within a relatively small area, which is ok at times of the game, but I need them to be decompromised much more in the game and give a more dynamic way to play, but it is also in the code of the game. So if I were to accept Line Length 38, it would only be for each team like Benfica, I would only accept through CTT, and it's not possible at this time.

[ricardodc]

Re: Feedback for fifa17 CTT

I may misunderstand so try and elaborate?. I'm not sure I agree with you that if lines are more open, Slider's values for marking should be higher ?

If we accept compacter lines and high marking both reduce space between players, while open lines and low marking increases it, I use each other to compensate. With this latest update i reduced space between lines (mainly by lowering length) so to compensate I also reduced marking.

I not doubt Benfica play compact in all chains, they have a fairly high line and they play with offside.

The compact lines isn't exclusive of teams like Benfica, it's a wide concept. Today while watching Newcastle vs Spurs i noticed how compact teams were in defense, specially Newcastle.

But in comparison to the lines in your video, I do not think they are being decompressed and both teams are within a relatively small area, which is ok at times of the game, but I need them to be decompromised much more in the game and give a more dynamic way to play, but it is also in the code of the game.

I agree. If we could play 90 min the slow decompression would be fine and realistic. The problem is the lack of time we have by playing just 15 min halves. Things need to be faster (more dynamic) in general.

So if I were to accept Line Length 38, it would only be for each team like Benfica, I would only accept through CTT, and it's not possible at this time.

If you accept that Positioning sliders (lines and FB) should be team specific (like CTTs) why don't change the values in every game (related to the teams) and also during the game? Why people want to set a global positioning sliders set and so assuming all teams position exactly the same way?!

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