Sliders: I Don't Get It

[idesign2]

I don't have a problem with including sliders, as long as game developers aren't sacrificing the integrity of the game by including them. It seems some (if not most) sports games are released with atrocious AI and other glaring flaws. Developers many not care about "getting it right" because they know users have sliders to help alleviate any shortcomings. While I appreciate having this tool, I'd personally much rather have a game that "just works" out of the box. As it stands now, these games force me to spend far too much time tweaking and obsessing over finding a good set of sliders that will make a game somewhat enjoyable. Many of the best sports games I've ever played were released prior to the introduction of sliders. That says something, I think.

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

I think you are missing the point of sliders, at least from the end user's perspective. It's about options. "Correct out of the box" is very subjective. It might be functionally correct, but either too easy or too hard for some. MLB: The Show is the best example of this. There are options to ramp up percieved pitch speed or tune it down. This compensates for differences in players individual reaction times. I may react very quickly, but someone may be a bit slower...or even faster. It's to compensate for the obvious fact that we are all different and want different things from our game. I agree with a previous poster who stated (as many have) that hitting is too easy in The Show. some feel it's just fine. Who's right? Neither...again, it's subjective. There have been calls for even more (or at least more sensative) sliders to compensate. I am fine with this because the hitting engine is functionally sound, it just needs tweaking, IMO. This way, I get what I want and those who think it's fine get wehat they want. Sliders, when incorporated effectively and not used as a crutch (as, admittedly, some games have done) are a complete win-win. You aren't required to use them and you certainly don't have to go by any so-called 'slider guru" to make good use of them easier. The slider forums are just another way for gamers to share what works for them in hopes it will work for others...another win-win.

Also, I think you'd get a lot more rational reaction if your article (intentional or otherwise) didn't affect the tone of superiority over and condemnation of those who effectively use sliders. You don't get it or don't want to and that's fine. The reality is that most people who vehemently demand more effective sliders are people who want to make the game more challenging and representative of the given sport...not the other way around as you imply. I don't know your intentions, but tone is a very fine balancing act when writing opinion pieces...just my opinion

Well maybe I struck a match on purpose don't blame me though, I'm a product of sensationalized local newscasts

But you talk about perceived pitch speed and even though I've never played the show, wouldn't you want a "major league" pitch speed that is consistent with the actual professional level? I realize what you are saying that that speed may be too fast for some and too slow for others. My contention is that instead of being able to slow down the pitch speed, those players would just have to practice until they got used to it and those that found it easy would just be better players...just like in real life.

That is what I would like to see in a sports game. I don't want to feel like I'm being patronized. I want to (since I play Head Coach) see if I have what it takes to coach in the NFL. I want it to be a "simulation" of how difficult it truly is to handle a NFL team.

Let me give you an example. In head coach, when it first came out, there was a kicking problem. Most kickers would miss 20-30 yard FG 1/2 the time. That is obviously a development issue. It is not realistic. Some people chose to change the sliders. I didn't. I drafted a kicker with a power rating of 97. He didn't miss the 20-30 yarders in fact he made a 53 yarder. He also missed some 40+ don't get me wrong, but, I adjusted as a coach would in real life, I got a stronger kicker.

There is no equivalent to a "slider" in real life. And again, remember I am a "simmer" not an arcade player, so I want my game to handle like real life and there are no sliders in real life.

flame on...

[SoxFan01605]

Well maybe I struck a match on purpose don't blame me though, I'm a product of sensationalized local newscasts

But you talk about perceived pitch speed and even though I've never played the show, wouldn't you want a "major league" pitch speed that is consistent with the actual professional level? I realize what you are saying that that speed may be too fast for some and too slow for others. My contention is that instead of being able to slow down the pitch speed, those players would just have to practice until they got used to it and those that found it easy would just be better players...just like in real life.

That is what I would like to see in a sports game. I don't want to feel like I'm being patronized. I want to (since I play Head Coach) see if I have what it takes to coach in the NFL. I want it to be a "simulation" of how difficult it truly is to handle a NFL team.

Let me give you an example. In head coach, when it first came out, there was a kicking problem. Most kickers would miss 20-30 yard FG 1/2 the time. That is obviously a development issue. It is not realistic. Some people chose to change the sliders. I didn't. I drafted a kicker with a power rating of 97. He didn't miss the 20-30 yarders in fact he made a 53 yarder. He also missed some 40+ don't get me wrong, but, I adjusted as a coach would in real life, I got a stronger kicker.

There is no equivalent to a "slider" in real life. And again, remember I am a "simmer" not an arcade player, so I want my game to handle like real life and there are no sliders in real life.

flame on...

lol...again though, you are missing the point of sliders (although maybe just ignoring it) On a personal level, I agree with the want for the most sim experience. The reality of it though, is this is not the majority of gamers. There are a wide variety of gamers and I can assure you that no sports game that wants to last will ever be completely sim with no options for more casual gamers (who generally make up the bulk of the market). This is where sliders come in. In actuality, sliders benefit sim gamers the most. It allows us to tweak a game to more "realistic" levels. I mentioned The Show. There were (In the opinion of many) not enough walks. Adjustments to the variety of sliders allowed us to tweak this to more appropriate levels. As for the pitch speed...the reality is that there are actually some oder gamers out there (especially in regards to the Show). Maybe they aren't "old" but they would be late 30's to even early 50's. Just like in real sports, they slow down. Should they not be allowed to enjoy a game because of this? This is a more extreme example, to be sure, but it helps illustrate the point. We are all different and "sim" is subjective. To use HC, a game designed for the more "sim" minded, there are many things about that game it's players can't agree upon. The sliders allow for these subjective aspects.

You say you want to open a game and it play correct. What makes you the definitive source of "correct?" I'm not saying that to be contentious, but to illustrate that if the gamers can't agree on the details of "sim," then developers will never get it "right" by everyone's standard. It's an impossible request (unless you really are the ultimate "sim" authority...in which case I bow before you...lol). You also claim you want to see if you have what it takes, for example, to be an NFL Head Coach. I can answer that for you. You don't. None of us do (I'll allow for the chance a prodigy or actual head coach is lurking among us). It's a videogame. The idea is to realistically represent a medium so we can get a "virtual" experience of what it's like. Some are obviously more succesful at it than others, but sliders are an effective tool to compensate. If you don't agree with that, fine. I'm not trying to sell you on using them, but to make you understand why many disagree with your gripes with them. There is no hinderance whatsoever to your game by having the sliders in there. It does allow for amateur programmers (j/k...sort of) and people seeking a better or more personably enjoyable experience to try and accomplish that. In the end these are entertainment sources we are talking about. I see no argument you can make for them being stripped of options that make them more accessable to users (particularly when their presence in no way impacts your experience if you choose to ignore them).

[asu666]

After reading all the posts here, I'm quoting this one because I can answer this question. I was going to quote the post that said "This is the dumbest article I have ever read on OS." but that would have been too much fun.

First, I am Joey, the uninformed author of this article and I have no problem admitting that. The title of the article tells you, "I Don't Get It." Some of your posts were very informative and I appreciate that. Some of your posts were not so informative. lol.

I should tell you about my gaming background as that will also help you understand why I don't get sliders. I'm a sim freak. I've never been a fps or button mashing guy. For example. I pre-ordered Madden CE, went to the midnight party at my local GameCrazy and took home a 2 litre bottle of pepsi and a wee plush football. I have not taken the Madden 09 disk out of its bed once. Not one single time. I bought Madden CE for Head Coach. My comrades in the Head Coach forum know me quite well lol, and my distaste for sliders.

When I open a game, any game, I want the confidence of knowing that this is the best possible game the developers could have made. Now I realize that the "business" of gaming makes that a pipe-dream, yet I still dream.

Which leads me to ASU's question. He asked what the point of the article was. The point, actually the question I want answered is don't you feel like if there were not sliders, then the developers would be forced to make the game as realistic as possible before shipping it? That is what I worry about. That instead of putting the realism (and if I'm reading all your posts correctly THAT is why you change sliders, to make it more realistic, challenging) in our, the gamers hands, would not having sliders force the developers to make the near-perfect game?

I'm not a programmer. I don't want to have to spend the countless hours of "tweaking" sliders to make the game realistic and challenging. One of the other posts made a great point about the variances in sports games. There are too many variables in football especially, but I'm sure all sports, to even know what the "base-line" is. Then where are you? Do you have to change the sliders every time you play a different team like mentioned in another post? When does it end? Why do we have to do it in the first place?

That is what the point of the article is.

Flame on

Everyone plays sports games differently. For example, I never use turbo because I think a player's maxium speed should be hit when the user presses the analog stick all of the way in one direction for a few seconds. For me it is important to be able to ensure that the game plays right for my style. Sliders are there because it is impossible to perfectly balance most sports games for every user. For every five minute quarter cheeser with the turbo button taped down there is a serious simulation fan that can't stand that style of play. Sliders are the middle ground that keeps the peace.

[Cardot]

Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

I definately agree that sliders are not without issues. Often times they aren't explained well, sometimes they have unintendend side-effects and other times they effect the wrong thing or have no effect at all. And yeah, maybe developers do use them as a crutch.

But there are 2 big reasons I like sliders. The first is the ability to customize. Most people here on OS talk about playing sim style. But if you play in an online league with a group here, you will find that everyone has a different definition of "Sim". Infact I am definately not sim. For example I don't play 15 minute quarters and run the play clock down like they do in the NFL and the pure sim guys do. But I also don't want NFL Blitz with guys catching on fire. I want something about 80% up the arcade-sim spectrum, and good sliders allow me to do that.

The other reason for me is being able to adjust the difficulty, and here is where we disagree. If I am in skill level purgatory, you are telling me to practice, and strive to get up to that next level. As much as I enjoy video games, I am not going to "practice". I am 38, none of my friends play video games, and I could care less how good I am. I just want a competitive, fairly realistic escape from the real world for an hour or so a night. I would rather bump a slider or two than invest hours upon hours to find that balance.

[Smokez4DAyz]

I never understood sliders in sports games simply if you're a traveling gamer/online gamer, gameplay sliders don't travel with you. So why spend so much time on a slider set that only you play on? No one else is experiencing the same thing your sliders provide. I always thought that 50 meant was the real 'zero' value, based on the players ratings, so why start sliding from the zero value to extremes...why turn down 3pters, or Run Blocking why turn up Speed or FG pct? I've heard them all. I just play the game how it comes and get good like that.

[catcatch22]

Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

The article writer keeps stressing that if there is no sliders then the developers will give us realistic game play. HA! fat chance. They didn't do it in the past and they won't do it now.

Case in point, I watched a tv show on the developement of Forza Motorsport 2 (a game with no sliders I believe). The developers actually said that "first we made the game with real world physics but then tuned them down so people can actually enjoy the game with the controls they have as options".

This is how they all think, they don't go all the way because they think we don't want a full out simulation, also you have to take into account what controls we have to play the games. Idealy you probably should use a special controller for each and every game to truly get the most realism out of it (like a wheel for racing games). Plus they are right in someways, if you look at the sales of those games most are not complaining that my Ferrari F1 is not as loose as it should be or a 99 mph fastball is not getting to the plate in less than .75 seconds. Actually All Star Baseball 2005 had a realistic pitch speed and it was so fast it was literally unhittable. You barely had any time to react. I am 30 and if I was 12-14 again I would have definitely tried to master it, however this is no way I would do it now.

[Garrett67]

Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

Other than the reason us 'Sim' players like sliders, they also have another role.


Take Madden player 'A', he is just a dude who isn't very good at the game but likes football.

Take Madden player 'B', he is the guy that lives Madden , goes to all of the tourneys and has sick stick skills.

Sliders allow for player 'A' to get similar results and stats as player 'B' without being as good.

[SloeyEZ]

Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

The article writer keeps stressing that if there is no sliders then the developers will give us realistic game play. HA! fat chance. They didn't do it in the past and they won't do it now.

Case in point, I watched a tv show on the developement of Forza Motorsport 2 (a game with no sliders I believe). The developers actually said that "first we made the game with real world physics but then tuned them down so people can actually enjoy the game with the controls they have as options".

This is how they all think, they don't go all the way because they think we don't want a full out simulation, also you have to take into account what controls we have to play the games. Idealy you probably should use a special controller for each and every game to truly get the most realism out of it (like a wheel for racing games). Plus they are right in someways, if you look at the sales of those games most are not complaining that my Ferrari F1 is not as loose as it should be or a 99 mph fastball is not getting to the plate in less than .75 seconds. Actually All Star Baseball 2005 had a realistic pitch speed and it was so fast it was literally unhittable. You barely had any time to react. I am 30 and if I was 12-14 again I would have definitely tried to master it, however this is no way I would do it now.

Great responses one and all! Thank you, I wrote this article truly seeking an education. Like I said, I did not get it. Now I understand. I quoted this response because real quick I just wanted to say that the fact that the devs in this exampled...tuned down the physics to make it more enjoyable is what really irks me. This has nothing to do with sliders I realize, and take this for what it is worth (meaning just my opinion) but I would like a game to play with the real world physics. I guess I am, like most of us here on OS, a hardcore gamer who always wants a challenge, not cheese.

Now back to sliders. Now that I understand what you are doing with the sliders, I am still not a slider person. We can't really argue this point any more than I can argue you not using sliders. Heck, I may be trying sliders after a year in HC to see if I can make it more of a challenge.

Here is what I would like to propose however. Would it be better for the devs to go ahead and make the games "physics-real" to make the games as realistic as possible? Make that 98 mph fastball really seem like a 98 mph fastball? And THEN let us use the sliders to make the game easier/slower?

I guess what I'm saying is, now that I understand that sliders are used to customize a game to one's personal taste, which for the majority of people here on OS and I'll assume for the majority of hardcore gamers (of which we are the minority it seems as far as sales go) that means to crank up the challenge or to tone down certain "random" events so they match real life statistics. What I'm asking is why can't we have the realism FIRST...and let the "casual" gamer use the sliders to dumb down the game for them?

Is that an option?

[Cardot]

Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

What I'm asking is why can't we have the realism FIRST...and let the "casual" gamer use the sliders to dumb down the game for them?

I would certainly be in favor of that. But from the developers standpoint, I would imagine that those "Casual" gamers don't have the patience that we do to adjust sliders. So they default to them.

NHL 2K5 (or maybe 2K6) had a pretty good idea...how well it was implemented is debatable, but the idea was good. But they had some preset settings for Sim Game, Arcade game and I think there were a few others too. Beyond these presets, sliders were available for further customization.

[bsb13]

Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

NHL 2K5 (or maybe 2K6) had a pretty good idea...how well it was implemented is debatable, but the idea was good. But they had some preset settings for Sim Game, Arcade game and I think there were a few others too. Beyond these presets, sliders were available for further customization.

That is probably the best way to go about it. I was just thinking about this the other day when I was playing NHL 2k9 for the PS2. I noticed it had pre-settings for Sim and Arcade. I was wondering way every sports game doesnt do that. That doesnt mean that the Sim setting was perfect, but I bet you will probably have to do less tweaking from that default setting than you would from the Arcade default setting.

[bsb13]

Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

As far as I'm concerned, you are telling everyone to eat a pizza with no toppings. Sliders are the great ingredients like pepperoni, bacon, mushrooms, peppers, etc. Why would I be satisfied eating a cheese pizza when I could be adding meat to it? Or why would I eat a pineapple and ham pizza when I don't want pineapple on my pizza? Quite frankly, I think anyone who doesn't use sliders is nuts. I'd much rather eat my pepperoni, bacon, ham and mushroom pizza than just simply accept whatever slice someone throws on my plate.

I don't want cheese pizza either. I want the meat lovers deluxe with everything on it, well not in real life , irl I actually like cheese pizza, but for my sports games I do want the deluxe.

I just don't want to bring home the cheese pizza that the developer's sell me and then have to slice my own pepperoni, cook and crumble my own sausage, slice all the veggies, and so forth and so on and add them to my pizza on my own! I mean what if I put Anchovies on it and then my pizza sucks but I don't know it's the anchovies making my pie suck, so first I take off the sliced tomatoes, which makes the pineapple slices stronger but my pizza still sucks, so I take off the pineapple and yech, it still sucks. AND I paid $65 + for this pizza

These are the two of the most delicious post I have ever read.

[J.R. Locke]

You don't have to adjust sliders. Developers still need to work on the default settings for online play (lackadaisical effort?).

Your argument that sliders are crutches for developers is just inane. The reason sliders were introduced were for people who wanted more realism. Developers often need to make a game for the average consumer who will not play a full 12 minute quarter NBA game, instead will play 5 minute quarters. If there were no sliders to adjust FG% do you realize how horrible 2k would be?

"This is the dumbest article I have ever read on OS"

I concur!!!!

[bobday]

Well you're not getting it, because you're a moron. How often do you see what damage does a monster with an axe, or how fast a monster is?
Sports games are about realism and perception. Simulating the real leagues, players. How many real monsters did you saw? You're still not getting it right?

[countryboy]

Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

for me, I rarely, rarely, and I mean rarely use sliders. To me, adjusting sliders means that you are trying to get a "predetermined" outcome thus eliminating the unpredictability of the game. Also, in my opinion, slider adjustments become a never ending, vicious cycle. You are playing the game to see if it "plays correctly" instead of playing the game to, well, play the game.

Now having said that, do I think that sliders should be removed? Absolutely not. They have become a mainstream in sports games and in all honesty, the more options given to the user, the better. We all have different opinions of what a "sim" game is and sliders gives the users the ability to adjust the game to their "sim level".