Posts I'll Never Understand

**Graphik** · 04-08-2005, 04:23 PM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

Originally posted by Heelfan71

which reminds me, I am working on some Madden 2006 sliders right now. I know the game isn't out yet but I am doing them in my head.

LMAO. You must of got that EA e-mail too.

**Shaver** · 04-08-2005, 04:24 PM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

Originally posted by Pared

Barrel jumping... or:

Barrel THROWING at Italian Plumbers...?

Fault - Deuce

Gorilla throwing Barrels at Plumber is the action that would be adjustable by slider (e.g. Throwing Accuracy, Contact Percentage, Long Range). The objective of the event, however, is barrel jumping....

Advantage: Server

**srudoff** · 04-08-2005, 04:52 PM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

While I think it's ridiculous how people treat slider "gurus" as demigods, to use "Developers and playtesters worked a long time on hammering out the defaults" to defend default settings is obtuse. These same developers and playtesters allowed the LH Hr bug to get thru last year - they allowed the manage only bug in mlb to get thru - they allowed the wild pitch bug in espn to get through. they are setting defaults for their target market - which in most cases are the arcade baseball fan who doesn't care if Travis Hafner hits 82 homeruns for them. I'd like to think that most people who come here prefer more accurate results and thus, some slider adjusting is not only warranted, but necessary

**inkcil** · 04-08-2005, 07:37 PM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

Unfortuantely, even though the developers work hard, glaring gameplay glitches are becoming more and more evident as of late. Sliders can be used to fix a problem (as in MLB2k5) or make a game more enjoyable for an individual without impacting the difficulty (speed setting in NBA Live).

From another perspective, for technical junkies, tweaking sliders has become a game within a game. For them it is like taking the baton that the developers are passing off to them and running with it...and in any direction they want to go. Furthermore, if developers say in an interview, "We wanted to make as much of a realistic experience as possible" the slider person has every right, IMO, to come up with some post called "Slider Man's Realism Sliders."

There are technically minded people who just love tweaking the sliders for the enjoyment of others, either finding ways to enhance the experience (whether realism or arcade) as promised by the gaming company, or to serve a select group of gamers that want an alternate gaming experience.

To say that games aren't real is like saying that movies aren't real - its just not a solid argument for people wanting to see real life mimicked in a video game or on the big screen. We all know it's not real already. It's not like we expect the players to come out of the TV like in the recent Fat Albert movie.

As for watching CPU vs. CPU games, a very similar argument can be made against watching Human games on TV...you can also say that baseball was a game meant to be played (compared to watched). So we should all go out and grab a mit instead of watching the next Dodger-Giants matchup.

The main thing for me watching CPU vs. CPU has nothing to do with realism (not that the author necessarily said it did). It's all about being fully sucked into a fantasy world, much like watching a movie (Star Wars isn't real but I still love to sit back and watch it).

Watching CPU vs. CPU serves somewhat of an RPG-like purpose for me. I am in this fantasy baseball world, where my team is doing A, B, and C. But what they do is also impacted by what 2 other teams (that I am not controlling) are doing. For instance, if the CPU decides that Ichiro will be injured in a matchup with Texas that occurs 2 games before my 3-day stint in Seattle, I am impacted by that matchup.

Also, let's say that I am up by 1/2 game over Texas on the last day of the season. If they win their game against the Angels I will not make the playoffs. However, if they lose the game I go to the playoffs and win the division. As an RPG-like element (think of it as a large cut-scene), I would like to watch that game, compared to just pressing a button and finding out what the score of the Texas-Angels game is.

Ironically, I still understand people who don't watch CPU vs. CPU games or tweak sliders.

**Pared** · 04-08-2005, 07:57 PM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

Originally posted by inkcil

Unfortuantely, even though the developers work hard, glaring gameplay glitches are becoming more and more evident as of late. Sliders can be used to fix a problem (as in MLB2k5) or make a game more enjoyable for an individual without impacting the difficulty (speed setting in NBA Live).

From another perspective, for technical junkies, tweaking sliders has become a game within a game. For them it is like taking the baton that the developers are passing off to them and running with it...and in any direction they want to go. Furthermore, if developers say in an interview, "We wanted to make as much of a realistic experience as possible" the slider person has every right, IMO, to come up with some post called "Slider Man's Realism Sliders."

There are technically minded people who just love tweaking the sliders for the enjoyment of others, either finding ways to enhance the experience (whether realism or arcade) as promised by the gaming company, or to serve a select group of gamers that want an alternate gaming experience.

To say that games aren't real is like saying that movies aren't real - its just not a solid argument for people wanting to see real life mimicked in a video game or on the big screen. We all know it's not real already. It's not like we expect the players to come out of the TV like in the recent Fat Albert movie.

As for watching CPU vs. CPU games, a very similar argument can be made against watching Human games on TV...you can also say that baseball was a game meant to be played (compared to watched). So we should all go out and grab a mit instead of watching the next Dodger-Giants matchup.

The main thing for me watching CPU vs. CPU has nothing to do with realism (not that the author necessarily said it did). It's all about being fully sucked into a fantasy world, much like watching a movie (Star Wars isn't real but I still love to sit back and watch it).

Watching CPU vs. CPU serves somewhat of an RPG-like purpose for me. I am in this fantasy baseball world, where my team is doing A, B, and C. But what they do is also impacted by what 2 other teams (that I am not controlling) are doing. For instance, if the CPU decides that Ichiro will be injured in a matchup with Texas that occurs 2 games before my 3-day stint in Seattle, I am impacted by that matchup.

Also, let's say that I am up by 1/2 game over Texas on the last day of the season. If they win their game against the Angels I will not make the playoffs. However, if they lose the game I go to the playoffs and win the division. As an RPG-like element (think of it as a large cut-scene), I would like to watch that game, compared to just pressing a button and finding out what the score of the Texas-Angels game is.

Ironically, I still understand people who don't watch CPU vs. CPU games or tweak sliders.

Fantastic post.

**Pared** · 04-08-2005, 08:01 PM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

Originally posted by Clay_OS

Gorilla throwing Barrels at Plumber is the action that would be adjustable by slider (e.g. Throwing Accuracy, Contact Percentage, Long Range). The objective of the event, however, is barrel jumping....

Advantage: Server

Actually, the objective is princess saving in your example. Barrel jumping is one of the participating activities, however. As is fire avoiding, and pit jumping.

Let - Deuce.

**Shaver** · 04-09-2005, 06:18 AM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

Originally posted by Pared

Actually, the objective is princess saving in your example. Barrel jumping is one of the participating activities, however. As is fire avoiding, and pit jumping.

Let - Deuce.

Actually, Donkey Kong, like a Decathalon, is actually separate sports combined into a single event or tournament. So, while fire avoiding, pit jumping, and yellow peg running over are all individual sports, so in Barrel Jumping.

Lob

**Hammerhunker** · 04-09-2005, 08:29 AM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

This is a thread I Don't Understand. Kind of reminds me of high school with the "Understood crowd bashing on the MisUnderstood crowd."

I was always under the impression that this site was designed as an outlet for people who choose video games as a hobby to come and discuss opinions, enhancements, improvements, solutions, unattainable information, etc. about their game. As posters will most often do, disagreements and judgements will be made, but it boils down to the now cliche': "To each their own" or something like that. I don't understand how a poobah can lead a charge basically stating that a group of posters that are interested in using sliders are ridiculous.

I fall into the group of the misunderstood, I guess. I play with the sliders because I want to tailor the game to my liking, plain and simple. I had realism with sports, it was called coaching, but parents came with that package and I would a lot rather deal with bugs and glitches, and be able to manipulate the game the way I want, than with parents. A lot of games I don't touch the sliders (football)much, but especially baseball I do tinker because it is necessary most often to get a playable game.

The author claims that slider use is not realistic. What do you think the NFL's Competition and Rules Committee does? When kicking began to be "too easy" teams relying on the field goal instead of risking the 4th down attempt, they implemented the kicking ball to make the kick more difficult. Also on a miss, the ball would return to the point of the kick. All of this to hopefully increase scoring. Sounds like a tweaking of a slider to me. How about the 2004 mandate to enforce the rule already in place on the chuck zone? No more contact beyond 5 yards, hence there were a ton more illegal contact penalties than ever before. This allowed receivers more freedom, increased offensive potential, huh sounds like a slider tweak. Didn't the NHL try to enforce obstruction and interference more in attempt to increase offense? Haven't teams in MLB work on height and distance of their outfield fences to either increase or decrease the homerun? Both sound like a slider tweak to me. Even the NBA legalized the zone defense and made a bevy of changes to improve their game. Now if sliders are unrealistic, but real the NFL, MLB, NHL, and NBA do essentially the same thing, what is realistic?

I probably set myself up here for some ripping, but I don't really care. Though I wasn't offended by the article, I was taken back. The slider, at this juncture of game ownership to me, is the main reason I visit this site. So, I don't understand why a topic like this should be raised. I hate to use this cliche, but oh well: To each their own, Mr. Fossen, to each their own.

**Medway** · 04-09-2005, 07:15 PM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

To the above poster, those arent slider tweaks they're rule changes, there's a difference. Closest thing to a slider tweak would be someone taking steroids to "up their stats".

If someone wants to watch games then let them be. I like to watch the demo games now and then just to see how the AI acts. I've never made it through a whole game but it is interesting to watch sometimes. Yes you can turn on the tv to watch a real game, but with a video game you have total control over the situation that you are seeing.

Sliders have their use as well. Some people here want to most realistic playing game possible and sliders can help fix problems with how a game plays as opposed to default. Again you have a choice either way. I do think that people can get carried away with them (I have spent way too much time messing with sliders instead of just playing) but I'm glad they are there. Better to have the option and ignore it than not have it and need it.

As far as the comment on WE8, that game doesn't need sliders because they actually got it right, thats why no one complains about the lack of sliders unlike many other games. WE8 is an anomaly in the sports game market it seems, until other developers spend as much time getting their gameplay right then at least we have sliders to make ourselves happy. When you play that game you are free to just worry about actual strategy as the game itself does not bug you with any glaring flaws. In a perfect world all games would be like that but they aren't.

Not sure if the donkey kong analogy works. That game wasn't meant to be a sim so realism doesn't apply. If I wanted a sports game to play out of the bounds of realism I'd get Blitz or whatever.

**Programmed2Kill** · 04-09-2005, 07:33 PM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

1. Sliders make me sick, but since they're around.....

2. Fossen breaking out the WE8 comment is scary. Our lil' cult keeps spreading the word

3. Pared, keep working those baselines on Clay.

**mgoblue** · 04-09-2005, 07:38 PM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

Originally posted by Medway

As far as the comment on WE8, that game doesn't need sliders because they actually got it right, thats why no one complains about the lack of sliders unlike many other games. WE8 is an anomaly in the sports game market it seems, until other developers spend as much time getting their gameplay right then at least we have sliders to make ourselves happy. When you play that game you are free to just worry about actual strategy as the game itself does not bug you with any glaring flaws. In a perfect world all games would be like that but they aren't.

so aren't sliders the easy way out for a game developer? should we let them off the hook from delivering correct gameplay just because they drop some sliders in there?

**Programmed2Kill** · 04-09-2005, 07:41 PM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

Originally posted by mgoblue

so aren't sliders the easy way out for a game developer? should we let them off the hook from delivering correct gameplay just because they drop some sliders in there?

Excellent point.

**Medway** · 04-09-2005, 07:47 PM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

Originally posted by mgoblue

so aren't sliders the easy way out for a game developer? should we let them off the hook from delivering correct gameplay just because they drop some sliders in there?

Yes they are and no we shouldn't. Its a similar situation to PC games now. Companies know they can always add a patch so they don't have to test it as much. Sliders produce the same situation. It would be great if games didn't need the sliders ala WE8 but unless a company knows their gameplay is spot on then I'd rather them give us the option to fix it than none at all. I have a feeling that WE8 will be the exception for a while, hopefully I'm wrong. I'm not sure what the difference is in the way Konami develops their game. Is it just pure love of getting it right or do they think they market demands it? I'd imagine its the former, someone there must have given them the greenlight to get the job done right. EA's offering has always been behind but they can't blame lack of resources for that. Maybe Konami actually "cares" and that's why they produce such an excellent game, who knows, hard to tell with large companies today if its always just about the money or not.

**luv_mist** · 04-09-2005, 10:42 PM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

So many key thoughts and ideas. I honestly feel small because I'm so late and all the thoughts I had were put down on following pages. Sliders are abused a lot for times, but then they are great additions at other times. One key thing I can really view is the fact that NBA 2K5 was lacking in more aspects than one. Some that can't be fixed while others that shouldn't have slipped through the testing (Timeout bug, awkward subbing, HORRIBLE TRADING FOR THE millionth time). Still, the game does run smoother for me with the sliders. What the heck am I talking about? Honestly, I do like sliders and the ability to adjust the game.

Also, for the guy that explained why he watched games, I can understand. Even though it's not really an option in the basketball games that I play. Don't want to watch my team lose annd all cause that would defeat the purpose. Those who do it just to see how the computer plays are just idiots for the simple fact that a demo can be pre-played stuff by developers or games where the computer does play against itself. I don't know. Just so many different dimensions you can look at on this topic. Great support for every dimension. Still, I think we should start a letter telling these other sports games to increase their default settings following the example of WE8. Haven't played WE8 but I'm just seriously in love with it. That game has to be the greatest game every case I've heard no complaints or bashers against it. That's how all other sports should be. Pure and undivided attention to detail. Ya'll agree

**SportsTop** · 04-10-2005, 12:17 AM

Re: Posts I'll Never Understand

Interesting article overall. It just seemed to me that it was written more to take up some bits and bytes on this site to provoke comment.

I, myself, don't really agree with "watching" the CPU play games against itself, but there are people out there that question our desire to play video games based on real life and complain about them when they aren't real enough. Kind of bundles us in the same group as the CPU watchers as it would seem.

That's nuts. There's a plenty good slider set inside that plastic - it's called "default".

Here's where I get a little confused......

Aren't the "default" sliders (as brought up by the author) just like sliders developed by Pared or Jistic except they happen to be developed by people employed by EA? I mean really, what's the difference? I'd rather have my "default" sliders developed by people that I may happen to have some type of quasi-acquaintance with rather than people who get paid $12 an hour to make sure that they aren't getting 23-19 results everytime they play a baseball game.

At least I know that the sliders developers here at OS have the same vested interest in a game that I happen to like (just as they do) rather than the people that are creating the "default" sliders as part of their job, just passing the time, waiting for the clock to strike five.

Hell, for all I know these "default" sliders could be developed by people that barely even know what a baseball is, let alone that baseball is actually a sport.

Posts I'll Never Understand

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