Small sample test: Reasons CPU doesn't bring in closer in save situations.

[oldtimey]

I compiled a log of the intances in my first-year franchise where the cpu manager brought in a pitcher other than the closer in a save situation. Now, I play cpu-v-cpu, so each game gave me 2 possibilities of this occurrence. You can do your own test, but in my franchise, i came up with 2 common threads when this happened:

1. The save situation became a save situation quickly.
There are times when a late rally in the bottom of the 8th and the top of the ninth will happen while there are a couple of setup/middle men warming in the pen. These guys are preparing to pitch in the current situation, with their team trailing. The cpu will only get the closer up when the current situation is a save situation. So if your rally ends abruptly, say with a DP, there's insufficient time for him to be warmed up properly. Hence, the cpu manager decides to "buy" an out, maybe 2, with a reliever who is already warm. When the closer is properly warm, he will bring him, most times after the first guy has gotten into trouble. The problem is that the AI does not anticipate the situation changing by getting the closer up while the potential lead run is on base. It waits until the save situation is current. Most times, this too late.

2. The closer is fatigued. If you have used him a couple of games in a row, then he is less than 100% rested. The cpu will attempt to rest him by bringing somebody in who is rested. Now, in my franchise, because of the way I set up my bullpens, this guy is usually the pitcher in the long relief spot. He is the 6th starter, but also really the 12th man on the staff. Because he is not used everyday, he is the one most rested. So, he's the guy the cpu goes to when trying to rest the closer. But he will have the closer warming up. If this guy gets into trouble, then the cpu will reluctantly bring the closer in, albeit with is pitching arm dragging the ground.

I am relatively new to The Show franchise with a lot of time on my hands. I hope this isn't redundant and helps in trying to have the most realistic experience in the game as possible.

[metal134]

I think that what you described is also the result of an equally large problem, and that is closers not being used in NON save situations. The CPU seems slavish to the notion that, in order to bring a closer in, it has to be a save situation. So this leads to the issue you described. And if you look at the season stats, you will see closers having darn near the same amount of saves as innings pitched, which doesn't even count blown saves. In reality, closer need to be used twice as much as they do because in real life, and I'm just guesstimating here, but I'd say the average closer is only used in an actual save situation approximately 60% of the time, and when I'm feeling a little less lazy later on, I'll try to come up with an actual number instead of my made up statistic.

[bfindeisen]

Great thread. This issue has drove me nuts for years.

[CanOfCornCobb]

Do you think turning off the option to warm up pitchers can change this? Does this this only affect HUM contrlled players?

[oldtimey]

Quote: Originally Posted by CanOfCornCobb

Do you think turning off the option to warm up pitchers can change this? Does this this only affect HUM contrlled players?

Possibly. I never tried that because bullpen management (warming up pitchers, defining roles, etc.) is one of my favorite aspects of baseball. When the warmup rule was broken in OOTP, that was a gamebreaker for me. This is how the cpu handles the bullpen, so it seems logical that if the AI didn't have to worry about warming him up, the closer would always be ready.

But what the above poster mentioned is also a big problem: the cpu only using the closer in save situations. A team could be on a losing streak and you will not see the closer for a week. And if the losing streak is because of ineffective starting pitching, you need him to shoulder some the burden being placed on the rest of your bullpen. This an issue also. The cpu manager's use of the closer should expand to other high leverage situations and include the "just getting some work in" appearance in blowouts.

[metal134]

Quote: Originally Posted by oldtimey

And if the losing streak is because of ineffective starting pitching, you need him to shoulder some the burden being placed on the rest of your bullpen. This an issue also.

And not even just that. Even if the team is on a winning streak and winning big, the manager (in real life, that is) might bring the closer in in a non-save situation just to get him some work. In reality, pulling on the stats from last year, a top closer should have about 35-50% more innings pitched than saves

[duc748s]

Quote: Originally Posted by metal134

I think that what you described is also the result of an equally large problem, and that is closers not being used in NON save situations. The CPU seems slavish to the notion that, in order to bring a closer in, it has to be a save situation. So this leads to the issue you described. And if you look at the season stats, you will see closers having darn near the same amount of saves as innings pitched, which doesn't even count blown saves. In reality, closer need to be used twice as much as they do because in real life, and I'm just guesstimating here, but I'd say the average closer is only used in an actual save situation approximately 60% of the time, and when I'm feeling a little less lazy later on, I'll try to come up with an actual number instead of my made up statistic.

I was just thinking about this today as I put a few games in with my RttS pitcher. This issue of AI bullpen management is affecting RttS SP also. I am being left in when the SU should be coming in or the closer for 4 out saves. None of this happens until there is a save situation. This is also tied to the score of the game and if anyone gets on base. I think there is another thread about a similar issue but RttS focused. It might be related and affect all modes of play.

[oldtimey]

Here is another reason that the cpu manager won't go immediately to the closer in an obvious save situation. This one is the most glitchy, and kind of lame:

3. There is already a pitcher warming up.
Here is an example. Brewers are at Cardinals. This game is played after an off day, so fatigue is not a factor. Martinez is mowing down the Crew thru 6, allowing 1 run. Going into the 7th, with the Redbirds leading 4-1, cpu Matheny warms up Walden as Martinez breezes through the inning. So, Martinez starts the 8th, as cpu Matheny has closer Rosenthal join Walden. Martinez gets through the 8th, but pitch count and fatigue factor in so cpu Matheny goes to the bullpen to start the top of the ninth. With the score still 4-1 (a save situation), he brings in Walden instead of Rosenthal. Each are 100% rested. Rosenthal has had plenty of time to warm up. The only reason has to be that Walden was warmed up first. The AI is not programmed to skip over Walden and bring in Rosenthal to react to the save situation. The result? Walden pitches to one batter, PH Cecchini, who promptly hits a home run to deep right center! Of course, now, cpu Matheny yanks Walden and brings in Rosenthal, who gets the three outs for the save. I hope one day the situatonal pitching strategy part of the AI gets a serious overhaul.