This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

[NinjaDuder]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

So,I was wondering what's considered simulation. Would another ALL PRO FOOTBALL style game be considered simulation even tho it's more FANTASY football than anything.

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Honestly, I didn't read the whole thread here, so sorry if this is a rehash of information, but check out this article from 2009, defining what a Simulation means in regards to video games.

https://www.alteredgamer.com/pc-gaming/58403-from-planes-to-pets-to-people-the-growth-and-breadth-of-simulation-games/#:~:text=%20What%20is%20the%20Definition%20for%20Simulation%20Games,games%2C%20perhaps%20the%20earliest%20and%20most...%20More%20

Personally, I don't interpret Madden as a simulation football game. There was a first person football game for VR a few years back. That is what I would consider a simulation football game, because it was an actual imitation of real life, playing in a football game. Compare Madden to flight simulators, the most popular of which is Microsoft Flight Simulator and then DCS after that probably. They are first person, they have all the details, buttons, switches and controls of a real aircraft, and they even have a very good proximity of the real environment. So, does EA accomplish this? I don't think they do. In my opinion, the "simulation" license is just a bit of legal insurance (like a patent) or "future proofing" and has not yet been developed or at least released to the public by EA. Don't get me wrong, I'm one who actually likes Madden, despite the issues with it. I still play that game more than anything else.

Also, I would not expect a much better game from 2K. Looking at the NBA series...I'm not over excited about it. Will I play it? Heck yes, football is my favorite sport and I'll very much give it a go. Do I expect it to be leaps and bounds ahead of Madden? Definitely not.

[kehlis]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

^^ That's not an article lol. It's an opinion story written by someone trying to break down his interpretation of the websters definition of the word simulation. With no citations or anything as to how it could be used in this case.

It even has an entire section titled "One Gamer’s Sim Game Is Another’s Action Game" which says all you need to know about this guys story.

[JayhawkerStL]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

Also, the only definition that matters is the one the NFL, NFLPA, EA, and 2K paid a ton of money to lawyers to negotiate.

I get that it is annoying that we didn’t actually know any specifics about what 2K agreed to, and what they actually plan, out side of the vague press release about EA being the sole publisher of a NFL simulation game.

But filling that void with conspiratorial speculation about how 2K could make a game they clearly can’t is really sad. It’s all set up to create unrealistic expectations for a game no one knows the name of, what it will look like, play like, or even cost.

Somehow, when the game releases, and if it fail to meet the expectations of those that know nothing, it justifies the next round in this discussion.

Right now, no 2K game exists. If the one they release is not something you want, not a single thing will have changed. People still won’t have a 2K game to play. But because of all this nonsense, people are going to be mad that something that was never going to exist does, in fact, not exist.

It’s the difference between following the news, because you are interested in what they do, and following it so you can hold them responsible. Every single gamer that thinks devs need pressure from fans is toxic AF.

[TarHeelPhenom]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

A few years back, when I was getting into the Out of the Park baseball series, I went over to their forum. They actually had a thread dedicated to debating what was considered sim and what wasn't. To the hardcore PC gamer, they believe that any game where user input(button mashing, joystick control etc.) determines the outcome on the field/court/track is not a real simulation. They said that MLB The Show was not simulation, but arcade based on that and OOTP baseball was a true simulation. That was the first time I had ever heard that. I always thought simulation was simply a virtual game replicating real life sport and personally still do. It was an interesting read to say the least.

[JayhawkerStL]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

A few years back, when I was getting into the Out of the Park baseball series, I went over to their forum. They actually had a thread dedicated to debating what was considered sim and what wasn't. To the hardcore PC gamer, they believe that any game where user input(button mashing, joystick control etc.) determines the outcome on the field/court/track is not a real simulation. They said that MLB The Show was not simulation, but arcade based on that and OOTP baseball was a true simulation. That was the first time I had ever heard that. I always thought simulation was simply a virtual game replicating real life sport and personally still do. It was an interesting read to say the least.

That’s how I’ve always felt. When FPS Football Pro finally died, and interest leagues waned, I bought a Dreamcast and accepted that sim sports was too niche, and I would just enjoy console sports for what they are.

You could hook up a controller to your PC and play FootballPro, but I know literally no one that ever did that. This was about calling plays, building game plans, and roster building.

I ran a league for several years, and played our games live, head to head, but I was just playcalling.

The best league I was in required us to turn in our game plans each week, and the commish ran the files every Sunday night. We used a third party app that read the play by play text and produced a simple scorebug, so you could watch it as the game played. Better yet, he could run four games at a time, and we used ICQ to chat as we watched everyone’s results.

That same app would allow my league to watch a game others played, too.

Seriously, we could not understand why the kids wanted to ruin their sports games with controllers.

I never considered 2K sim, but I loved playing it, and appreciated its lifeline production. But there was nothing sim about any of the 2K football games.

Of course, none of that has anything to do with the definition of NFL simulation as it pertains to the contract 2K abides by.

[tsbmolina]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

Could non-sim be as simple as 5 min quarters with exaggerated player abilities to get inflated stats in that short period of time?

[kehlis]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

Could non-sim be as simple as 5 min quarters with exaggerated player abilities to get inflated stats in that short period of time?

I don't think something that Madden does just fine at doing themselves as their simulation would pass for 2K.

[tsbmolina]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

I don't think something that Madden does just fine at doing themselves as their simulation would pass for 2K.

In other words are you saying that Madden is not simulation? I would agree if that's the case.

[kehlis]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

In other words are you saying that Madden is not simulation? I would agree if that's the case.

Yes/no. What I'm saying is that your proposal can already be accomplished in Madden.

Madden is considered to be a simulation (our opinion is irrelevant). So recreating something Madden already can accomplish would not be something I could see being allowed to be done.

[tsbmolina]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

Yes/no. What I'm saying is that your proposal can already be accomplished in Madden.

Madden is considered to be a simulation (our opinion is irrelevant). So recreating something Madden already can accomplish would not be something I could see being allowed to be done.

What is left and would it be worth 2K's investment in the expensive NFL and NFLPA license if there are strict limitations which basically doesn't allow for much of anything from what you are saying.

[Blzer]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

What is left and would it be worth 2K's investment in the expensive NFL and NFLPA license if there are strict limitations which basically doesn't allow for much of anything from what you are saying.

That's the million dollar question that we have yet to be told.

[kehlis]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

What is left and would it be worth 2K's investment in the expensive NFL and NFLPA license if there are strict limitations which basically doesn't allow for much of anything from what you are saying.

This is the part of the flowchart where the arrow points back to the starting box.

Truth be told, nobody knows except EA, 2k, and the NFL.

Most of what's been said in this thread (and the many others) is nothing but speculation (on all sides).

[tetoleetd]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

That’s how I’ve always felt. When FPS Football Pro finally died, and interest leagues waned, I bought a Dreamcast and accepted that sim sports was too niche, and I would just enjoy console sports for what they are.

You could hook up a controller to your PC and play FootballPro, but I know literally no one that ever did that. This was about calling plays, building game plans, and roster building.

I ran a league for several years, and played our games live, head to head, but I was just playcalling.

The best league I was in required us to turn in our game plans each week, and the commish ran the files every Sunday night. We used a third party app that read the play by play text and produced a simple scorebug, so you could watch it as the game played. Better yet, he could run four games at a time, and we used ICQ to chat as we watched everyone’s results.

That same app would allow my league to watch a game others played, too.

Seriously, we could not understand why the kids wanted to ruin their sports games with controllers.

I never considered 2K sim, but I loved playing it, and appreciated its lifeline production. But there was nothing sim about any of the 2K football games.

Of course, none of that has anything to do with the definition of NFL simulation as it pertains to the contract 2K abides by.

the 2k games were deff sim. they were realistic depictions of the NFL game.

just because you liked to sit on your couch and call plays without playing the actual game doesnt mean 2k wasn't a sim experience lol.

[ElectricAggie]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

Could a game like Backbreaker be considered non-sim?

Backbreaker was developed by NaturalMotion (Euphoria Engine).

NaturalMotion was acquired by Zynga in 2014.

Zynga is currently in the process of getting acquired by Take-Two... just throwing that out there (sorry if it's already been discussed).

An NFL licensed Backbreaker-type game with exaggerated player models and Euphoria physics mixed with some 2k animations would be a dream. Probably not going to happen, but I can dream lol

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[JayhawkerStL]

Re: This whole "SIMULATION " thing(gray area)

What is left and would it be worth 2K's investment in the expensive NFL and NFLPA license if there are strict limitations which basically doesn't allow for much of anything from what you are saying.

The other guys are correct, in that we don’t know.

My speculation is that EA’s definition of sim has nothing to do with sim, but is just an easy way for them to identify features they consider integral to their exclusive license agreement. For me, the NFL simulation language signifies their desire to be the home of every NFL fan that wants to play out the season with their favorite teams.

So, no way to recreate an NFL schedule, playoffs, or Super Bowl. But with player licenses, this would free them up to do anything from APFB 2K23 to MyTeam NFL 2K23 to The Yard 2K23, or anything between.

They can sell games based on NFL logos and stars, but not an NFL season. I think it will be an 11v11 game, maybe with a 7v7 mode, that will be mostly used to for micro transactions.

But if I was betting, I’d say it will be APFB2K23, with a mix of pros and legends, with a MyTeam mode, and a possible 7v7 or arcade mode included.