Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15 Player Ratings Explained

[threattonature]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

Interesting but my question is what data would drive a players value per system when all players have not performed under each system.

wouldn't that be mostly up for interpretation or is there existing data that shows a players effectiveness in a particular system?

We don't necessarily know how a player will fare in a given stystem until we see him in it do we ?

What are the definitive markers you would use to clearly define each system especially when some guys either have no discernable "system" or run a mixture of both.

To me it just initially I think that would cause as many issues as it solves especially since it could be mostly user opinion that would drive it.

So not saying it couldn't work just asking how would it work and if that would really be better ? Another thread maybe ? IDK LOL.

ps apologies for typo's I am using a phone on a treadmill.

Someone just posted the example that I was going to use but for instance say D'antoni is the coach. He may value a player in his system that has high three point shooting and athleticism and would not be concerned so much about defense or post skill or mid range jumpers or even passing ability. A player in a Popovic system would be judged based off of passing ability, shooting, screen setting, defensive and offensive awareness and not necessarily judged more off of all around game and not as much based off of athleticism. A Thibs coached team valuing defensive ability.

Pau Gasol on the Lakers appeared not very valuable due to him not fitting the D'antoni system. So due to overall fit just using base OVR Pau could be looked at as a 75 in the Lakers system as he provides some value but you put him in a Memphis or San Antonio and he could be an 80 or and 85. So in terms of overall value the players attributes don't change but their fit with a team's sytem will better utilize their skills and make them more valuable.

So basically what I'm suggesting is that there be different coaching types for offense/defense. Basic fundamental ones such as offensive type. If you get a P&R PG matched up with a coach that stresses half court offense or pick and roles then it's considered a beneficial match and the player's overall rating is higher versus if a half court/P&R PG is matched with a coach that wants to run his overall rating can drop.

Like someone else mentioned with Madden, I love that they have the player type and system type and that plays a factor in the ratings each team has for each player.

I can sort my thoughts and explain this later. On a conference call and trying to explain is a pain.

[eko718]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

I really don't understand the desire to remove overalls. There won't ever be a perfect formula, because who knows what the perfect formula is? But the harm of having overalls is unclear to me. If they were to be removed, there would still need to be an alternative to organize players... hard to imagine a fantasy draft and even prospect scouting in Association with no such system of organization. There will always need to be a method by which to arrange players, whether it be overall, letter grade, etc. A letter grade would be ambiguous and potentially spark more debate. I prefer the specificity of the overall rating.

[NDAlum]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

I really don't understand the desire to remove overalls. There won't ever be a perfect formula, because who knows what the perfect formula is? But the harm of having overalls is unclear to me. If they were to be removed, there would still need to be an alternative to organize players... hard to imagine a fantasy draft and even prospect scouting in Association with no such system of organization. There will always need to be a method by which to arrange players, whether it be overall, letter grade, etc. A letter grade would be ambiguous and potentially spark more debate. I prefer the specificity of the overall rating.

Who said there was any harm to having overalls?

Players in today's NBA don't have any overalls attached to them. Rookies in the scouting combine don't have overalls attached to them.

Can't you look at individual attributes and make your own determination? The overall rating is just a number and has no substantial meaning to me. I'm confident I could go in there and make a 90 OVR player that nobody would want on their team.

[knick9]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

I'm lost but I know a couple of things:

In the past users look mainly at speed, dunk, and 3pt shooting ratings because they are the most valuable.

And signature skills SHOULD factor into a player's overall rating because some are really powerful. Two equal players shouldn't be rated equal if one has posterizer and finisher and the other has nothing.

[seanbarkley]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

Who said there was any harm to having overalls?

Players in today's NBA don't have any overalls attached to them. Rookies in the scouting combine don't have overalls attached to them.

Can't you look at individual attributes and make your own determination? The overall rating is just a number and has no substantial meaning to me. I'm confident I could go in there and make a 90 OVR player that nobody would want on their team.

...to you (and me and a lot of OS users), but it has for most of the 'not so hardcore' fans/players of this game. Many people don't have the time or simply don't want to go so deep into the game, just that, and take into account that those are the vast majority. IMO 2K is combining both worlds perfectly with the system they are developing.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

Interesting but my question is what data would drive a players value per system when all players have not performed under each system.

wouldn't that be mostly up for interpretation or is there existing data that shows a players effectiveness in a particular system?

I think what he means to say is more or less an evolution of the coach slider system.

For example we know D'Antoni favors spotup 3pt shooting, transition, and pick & rolls.
Prime Steve Nash would rate higher in his system, while Pau Gasol would rate lower.
The catch is not all 30 teams are coached by someone like D'Antoni whose offensive approach is easily defined due to it's extremities.

It's also not necessary and just confuses things. If a player has a higher OVR in a specific system than that messes with trade values considerably. Because then teams where the player doesn't fit will be placing a higher priority on that player.

We don't necessarily know how a player will fare in a given system until we see him in it do we ?

There are some markers when you look at play-by-play data, but it's ultimately true.
Jamal Crawford serves as a good example. He was a combo guard before joining the Clippers and now is exclusively a SG. His efficiency has gone up because he takes considerably more spotup threes now. However, given his player history, it would have been just as likely that he'd take possessions away from Chris Paul. There isn't really any way to conclusively know until the player takes the court. Kevin Garnett didn't look like such a great pickup when the season started, did he?

To me it just initially I think that would cause as many issues as it solves especially since it could be mostly user opinion that would drive it.

In short, yes.

[eko718]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

Who said there was any harm to having overalls?

Players in today's NBA don't have any overalls attached to them. Rookies in the scouting combine don't have overalls attached to them.

Can't you look at individual attributes and make your own determination? The overall rating is just a number and has no substantial meaning to me. I'm confident I could go in there and make a 90 OVR player that nobody would want on their team.

And how do you translate a persons eye test determination of a player's skill in real life into a video game?

[NDAlum]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

To me it's not that difficult to quickly scroll through ratings and get an idea of what a guy is good and/or bad at.

[eko718]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

To me it's not that difficult to quickly scroll through ratings and get an idea of what a guy is good and/or bad at.

Sure, as can I, but that's not the point I was making. There will still be need to organize players in the game. Would you prefer when scouting prospects in Association for the players to be randomly arranged to where you would have to go in and blindly scout guys to discover who the top players are? There will always need to be a system of organization.

When I said I don't see the "harm" in having an overall rating, I mean I don't understand the argument for removing it... maybe you can elaborate on why removing it would be beneficial?

[NDAlum]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

Prospects:
Give projections and player comparisons.

How to organize:
List them alphabetically or by projected starters first. They can have OVR under the hood, I just don't like the visual attribute as I believe it is doesn't hold much substance. You can have two 90 rated guys and they could be polar opposites

Issue I see with overall rating:
I see guys use it to justify ripping off the CPU in all sports games that I play (NBA/MLB/NFL). I think people put way too much stock into OVR.

[JazzMan]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

So we can potentially see CPU teams go after AND start the guys who are one-dimensional yet incredibly valuable to the team, like Kyle Korver or Tony Allen?

This is great news.

[eko718]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

Prospects:
Give projections and player comparisons.

How to organize:
List them alphabetically or by projected starters first. They can have OVR under the hood, I just don't like the visual attribute as I believe it is doesn't hold much substance. You can have two 90 rated guys and they could be polar opposites

Issue I see with overall rating:
I see guys use it to justify ripping off the CPU in all sports games that I play (NBA/MLB/NFL). I think people put way too much stock into OVR.

And that's my point I guess, as this seems to be the main issue folks have with the overall rating. I understand that, but ultimately, there is no concrete advantage to removing it, especially when the reason is one of visual/subjective annoyance. Whether under the hood or visible, it or some iteration of it is necessary. It drives so many systems in the game that it would probably break the game to remove it completely.

Maybe they can implement an option to visually turn it off, but either way they seem to be moving in the right direction with trying to make it more specific and meaningful.

[BobbyColtrane]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

Interesting but my question is what data would drive a players value per system when all players have not performed under each system.

wouldn't that be mostly up for interpretation or is there existing data that shows a players effectiveness in a particular system?

We don't necessarily know how a player will fare in a given stystem until we see him in it do we ?

What are the definitive markers you would use to clearly define each system especially when some guys either have no discernable "system" or run a mixture of both.

To me it just initially I think that would cause as many issues as it solves especially since it could be mostly user opinion that would drive it.

So not saying it couldn't work just asking how would it work and if that would really be better ? Another thread maybe ? IDK LOL.

ps apologies for typo's I am using a phone on a treadmill.

Czar off the treadmill and get back to work I want those playbooks TIZZIGHT!!!!!

[franzis]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

Interesting but my question is what data would drive a players value per system when all players have not performed under each system.

wouldn't that be mostly up for interpretation or is there existing data that shows a players effectiveness in a particular system?

We don't necessarily know how a player will fare in a given stystem until we see him in it do we ?

What are the definitive markers you would use to clearly define each system especially when some guys either have no discernable "system" or run a mixture of both.

To me it just initially I think that would cause as many issues as it solves especially since it could be mostly user opinion that would drive it.

So not saying it couldn't work just asking how would it work and if that would really be better ? Another thread maybe ? IDK LOL.

ps apologies for typo's I am using a phone on a treadmill.

I will keep it simple and realistic:
- first of all, you have to simplify the notion of "team system" taking as example the Team DNA in NBA LIVE 09/10: a kind of breakdown of possessions by type of plays (P&R, ISO, 3pt, etc etc) based on actual NBA stats
- you have to describe the single player style as breakdown of FG% by type of plays (as above) based on actual NBA stats
- when Player X who has his best FG% in Play Y, is traded from Team W to Team Z, IF Team Z uses more (less) Play Y than Team W, THEN Player X receive a boost (penalty) to his offensive ratings (and thus to Overall)...same logic of the Floor General Sig Skill

Obviously it has some limits (too much emphasis on scoring, no attention to defence) that requires extra reasoning, but it seems pretty feasibile to me and I believe that something like that is already in the 2k code (when plays are automatic assigned to players according to their attributes)

[stillfeelme]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

I will keep it simple and realistic:
- first of all, you have to simplify the notion of "team system" taking as example the Team DNA in NBA LIVE 09/10: a kind of breakdown of possessions by type of plays (P&R, ISO, 3pt, etc etc) based on actual NBA stats
- you have to describe the single player style as breakdown of FG% by type of plays (as above) based on actual NBA stats
- when Player X who has his best FG% in Play Y, is traded from Team W to Team Z, IF Team Z uses more (less) Play Y than Team W, THEN Player X receive a boost (penalty) to his offensive ratings (and thus to Overall)...same logic of the Floor General Sig Skill

Obviously this system has some limits (too much emphasis on scoring, no attention to defence) that require extra reasoning, but it seems pretty feasibile to me and I believe that something like that is already in the 2k code (when plays are automatic assigned to players according to their attributes)

The system thing can be confusing but when I think system it is usually:

Triangle, Motion, Princeton offense, Pick and roll. How do you tell what player can do well in a triangle vs. another offense especially if a player has never played under that system? I think the problem lies with the team/coach/philosophy.

The offense/defense suffers if you place your players in situations that don't line up with their strengths. The player doesn't lose actual value at the position based off the scheme though. Think of this some players play a large portion of their college career in zone defense, does this mean they can't play man to man how?