Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

[ODogg]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

Here are some things I think wrt fumbled snaps:

1 - adding random fumbled snaps would absolutely not be fun by my definition of fun. For me, fun in a video game is defined as the sense of fulfillment derived from learning and subsequently mastering some sort of video game system or mechanic. I don't want to lose because the CPU literally decided I should lose; a random fumbled snap is literally a dice roll. I have zero control over that and I would feel A - robbed if it happened to me, and B - bewildered and cheap if I benefitted from one. Sure, it's "sim", but I do not care about that, it's a video game first. If fumbled snaps are introduced into the game, I personally would only approve of it as a game mechanic around snapping the football.

2 - adding a game mechanic for snapping the football is probably going to make the game more tedious than fun; it'd have to be easy-to-learn and easy-to-master (because how often do fumbled snaps happen, really?), which would make the exercise of game-ifying the snap at all unnecessary and tedious.

3 - It's also not like a fumbled snap game mechanic adds much new complexity to the game; adding a mechanic there and succeeding at it literally achieves the same result as just pressing A / X right now. It literally adds nothing from a game mechanics perspective. It adds from an authenticity perspective, sure, but I don't think it adds enough value there to overcome that lack of value from a game mechanic standpoint, so I could never justify spending time making a snapping mechanic to that end.

4 - if anything, I think that a snapping mechanic might only have significant value in performing long snapping duties on field goals and punts, as to increase the still rather mechanically banal kicking game. Even then I'd probably only limit it to high / low / inaccurate snaps, as to increase chances of blocked kicks.

That's fine, to each their own, you just would not play on simulation mode, where those sorts of things would happen. They are a part of football and do you think a real life coach likes it when their running back is running in the field untouched for a TD and fumbles the ball 3 yards behind them while running? LOL..nope, but that's still part of the game.

And no, they don't need to add snapping mechanics or other nonsense, and it shouldn't be random either, it should be statistically based upon who is snapping the ball and who is under center getting it. Everything should be based upon statistics with a certain element of chance, just like real football.

[Hooe]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

You realize dice rolls are all over this game right? Tackles, fumbles, catches, etc.

Of course I do.

The existing dice rolls are a requirement to get the game to have dynamic outcomes with player ratings. That said, let's pump the brakes before we conflate the dice rolls which augment stick skills and a ratings check - such as making or breaking a tackle - with something which involves no user mechanic mastery or in-game player interaction whatsoever.

[TheBleedingRed21]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

Of course I do.

The existing dice rolls a requirement to get the game to have dynamic outcomes with player ratings. That said, let's pump the brakes before we conflate the dice rolls which augment stick skills and a ratings check - such as making or breaking a tackle - with something which involves no user mechanic mastery or in-game player interaction whatsoever.

I'm not sure where you're getting at.. there isn't much stick skill if any to make a tackle or force a fumble.

Especially for us non switch players who rely on these "dice rolls" with no user input. No need to pump any brakes.. we all play the game different. Just explaining how I feel about wanting bad snaps and the like in.

[Hooe]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

Now why would you implement this mechanic that only happens on less than 1% of snaps? You wouldn't.

Let's take this argument the next logical step - why would you bother implementing any random bad snaps when that only happens on less that 1% of snaps? You wouldn't.

That's fine, to each their own, you just would not play on simulation mode, where those sorts of things would happen. They are a part of football and do you think a real life coach likes it when their running back is running in the field untouched for a TD and fumbles the ball 3 yards behind them while running? LOL..nope, but that's still part of the game.

I would prefer to play simulation mode, foremost. That said, I don't think they are important for video game football. "Part of the game" doesn't mean its important to replicating the total experience.

And no, they don't need to add snapping mechanics or other nonsense, and it shouldn't be random either, it should be statistically based upon who is snapping the ball and who is under center getting it. Everything should be based upon statistics with a certain element of chance, just like real football.

If there is no user mechanic then there must be a dice roll.

Unless you are going to hard code something extremely rigid like "a player with a AWR rating less than 50 always commits bad snaps, otherwise no bad snaps", you must include randomness. As soon as you say "a player with AWR 80 does bad snaps 5% of the time", you have to include randomness to figure out when that 5% happens. You draw a random number 1 through 100 and if it's 5 or less, bad snap.

Statistics outside of ratings don't change anything, because again that just gives you a percentage chance an event will happen, and you still need a random number to compare against the probability to generate the outcome.

[ODogg]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

Let's take this argument the next logical step - why would you bother implementing any random bad snaps when that only happens on less that 1% of snaps? You wouldn't.

Why would you bother implementing it? Because it's still part of the game no matter if it doesn't happen all that often. Its part of football, it needs to be in the game.

I would prefer to play simulation mode, foremost. That said, I don't think they are important for video game football. "Part of the game" doesn't mean its important to replicating the total experience.

If a bobbled snap, snap over a QB's head, etc is entirely, never, ever, ever possible then it's not replicating the reality of the sport, which is the actual definition of simulation. A simulation strives to account for all possibilities, not just likely ones.

If there is no user mechanic then there must be a dice roll.

Unless you are going to hard code something extremely rigid like "a player with a AWR rating less than 50 always commits bad snaps, otherwise no bad snaps", you must include randomness. As soon as you say "a player with AWR 80 does bad snaps 5% of the time", you have to include randomness to figure out when that 5% happens. You draw a random number 1 through 100 and if it's 5 or less, bad snap.

Statistics outside of ratings don't change anything, because again that just gives you a percentage chance an event will happen, and you still need a random number to compare against the probability to generate the outcome.

A dice roll implies random chance. Statistical based coding combined with player trait based outcome is not the same as simple, random chance.

No different than every receiver in the NFL has dropped a pass before but some do it much more than others. There's always a chance someone will drop it when its thrown to them but some drop it more often than others. It's not random, it's based upon the players attribute.

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

You wouldn't.

Unless maybe you created a game setting that would have that exact type of thing. And they did implement a feature for something that happens roughly 1% of the time just last year so the fact that it's such a rarity should be a non-issue.

[msdm27]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

"I want to play simulation.... as long as it fits my definition of fun" classic

I really don't see how this is a discussion, especially knowing that now there will be three different modes for different types of players. If it happens in the NFL, even if seldom, there should be a way for it to happen in the game; and as Deuce mentioned it is not just bobbled snaps.

I do believe it's much easier said than done to talk about stats based snap rating because (talking about bobbled/bad snaps) the amount of rareness would make almost all players have a 98-99 rating, so it would almost be better if it's a random modifier.

Bottomline, I can already see the three different play styles becoming the new "MUT vs. CFM" neverending discussion where players clearly don't want to play Simulation mode but still pop in arguing about it simply because they don't want to be labeled as something else, even if that "something else" better suits their game style.

[Mattanite]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

It's always the same tired scenario of losing a game as a direct result of a fumbled snap. That's literally the 1% of the less than 1%. It'd be far more likely that you'd lose a game on a blocked FG or holding penalty than the one or two times in a seasons worth of snaps that you fumbled a snap it would be on a games consequential play. Especially considering it's likely around 50-50 odds that you'd still end up with possession of the ball.

Now why would you implement this mechanic that only happens on less than 1% of snaps? You wouldn't. You'd tie it into the solution for a few of Madden's current flaws. It doesn't just have to be botched snaps, it can be wide, high, low, low and wide, and high and wide. Snaps that upset and timing of the offense. Snap rating. Dictates how often or rare these snaps occur. If they ever figure out OL injuries, most teams don't carry two C's. It puts emphasis on having a backup or another lineman who can come in and do an ample job or you suffer the consequences. Long snappers. They'd actually serve a purpose and require a roster spot instead of being a free cut. There's probably more things that I'm forgetting that could tie in as well. And here's a wild idea, an On-Off option. The only reason they should need to do that is in the description of the Simulation setting: Play true to player and team ratings, with authentic rules and gameplay.

Totally agree and with the direction of splitting styles of modes there shouldn't be any reason not to do this. If they were going to do it, why stop there. Make it rare but it shouldn't be all on the C and his LS attribute, what if QB Catch and AWR counted towards rare bad or slower QB handles and handoffs or bad HB Carry and AWR counted towards bad or awkward handoffs. You wouldn't fully trust those rookies with low AWR then and it puts value back into age28+ veterans already on the decline in sim online leagues.

[R1zzo23]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

Just read the Dev tweets thread and seeing what Rex had to say about the three different play styles and I'm getting very, very exited!

[jfsolo]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

"I want to play simulation.... as long as it fits my definition of fun" classic

I really don't see how this is a discussion, especially knowing that now there will be three different modes for different types of players. If it happens in the NFL, even if seldom, there should be a way for it to happen in the game; and as Deuce mentioned it is not just bobbled snaps.

I do believe it's much easier said than done to talk about stats based snap rating because (talking about bobbled/bad snaps) the amount of rareness would make almost all players have a 98-99 rating, so it would almost be better if it's a random modifier.

Bottomline, I can already see the three different play styles becoming the new "MUT vs. CFM" neverending discussion where players clearly don't want to play Simulation mode but still pop in arguing about it simply because they don't want to be labeled as something else, even if that "something else" better suits their game style.

Your last paragraph is something that I've already been thinking and talking about a lot. I think that there is going to be a clash all year against a part of player base who considers themselves sim players, but who are going to be making tuning suggestions for the sim play style that would turn the setting into competitive lite.

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

It seems pretty simple to me. I saw Clint say that he wants to know the answer to the question "What is sim?" and that he hasn't seen a consensus for it but IMO they did a pretty good job of wrapping it all together under one blanket in their definition in the screenshot:

"Play true to player ratings and team ratings, with authentic rules and gameplay."

I don't know about anybody else but I'm more than fine with that definition of Sim. And with that, I don't think it really matters what someone's definition of simulation is because they've already defined it themselves. And with that definition should come the expectation of players playing true to ratings and more of that randomness that wouldn't be seen in Arcade or Competitive, otherwise what's the point of separating them? If you're going to make a specific game setting that plays true to player ratings but then still use mechanics to allow the user to override and influence the outcomes it seems to me that the purpose of the mode, by definition, is defeated. If I can still take Tim Tebow and throw it all over the field with precision because I've mastered the new passing mechanic, then am I really playing true to ratings? No. At that point it just essentially becomes Competitive with penalties which is basically what is currently in place and the separation of the modes is pointless.

Ask a competitive player why they don't want penalties or botched snaps and the answer is because it's random and doesn't involve user skill. Fits right in line with "user stick skills are king." So it seems pretty simple to me that moving forward the only thing that should be asked is whether or not a potential implementation fits under their definition of simulation. Not yours, not mine, but theirs. If the answer is yes, then there shouldn't be much debate to be had.

[therealsmallville]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

We've dealt with random fumbles and drops since the beginning of Madden, that we have absolutely zero control over. I just lost a game last week where I hit a wide open WR in the endzone on the final play and he dropped it, even though his catch ratings are in the 90's. I can't tell you how many times I've been barely touched and fumbled the ball on my end of the field, with zero control over it.

Bobbled snaps, fumbled snaps, these should absolutely be part of the game on simulation settings. If we're going to say it's not fun because we have no control, then let's remove fumbles from the game entirely. We also can't control blocking, so let's take blocked kicks out as well. I mean, I don't see why we should exclude one but keep another.


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[thm305]

Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

Is it too late to implement a "snap count"? That would help in the penalty stats in a "sim" way. And also put to use the discipline trait.

Example :
1. Set snap count during pick play screen (could be like changing offensive tempo)
2. Now that there is a set snap count, we no longer need the fake snap button (use it elsewhere). X/A is pressed to start the cadence and the ball is snapped on the desired count.
- Accurate offsides during to actually guessing a snap count.
- Accurate false starts due to not knowing the snap count or rowdy noise.
- Accurate Delay of Game penalties due to not knowing the snap count or crowd noise.

3 penalties that can be fixed if they can somehow incorporate snap counts please!!! [emoji23]

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[Greenblood60]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

"Play true to player ratings and team ratings, with authentic rules and gameplay."

Ratings should be respected whether the style is sim, arcade, or competitive. After all, ratings are fundamental to sport simulations ( whether you think the game is "sim" or not ). All players aren't created equal, which is the essence of sports games whether you're playing Madden or NFL street. As far as the definition of "sim" (for me), it comes down to what works and what doesn't, and do those tactics work in the NFL.

Here is an example of an unrealistic tactic: If you watch some online gameplay, people frequently drop nine players into coverage. They do this ( obviously ) because it's effective, but it wouldn't be effective in the NFL--or any level for that matter. If it was, coordinators would do it.

For a game to be sim, the same strategies that are effective in reality need to be effective in the game (and strategies that are ineffective in reality need to be ineffective in the game ).

[ODogg]

Re: Some Madden NFL 18 Game Style Details Revealed - Arcade, Simulation, Competitive

"Play true to player ratings and team ratings, with authentic rules and gameplay."

Ratings should be respected whether the style is sim, arcade, or competitive. After all, ratings are fundamental to sport simulations ( whether you think the game is "sim" or not ). All players aren't created equal, which is the essence of sports games whether you're playing Madden or NFL street. As far as the definition of "sim" (for me), it comes down to what works and what doesn't, and do those tactics work in the NFL.

Here is an example of an unrealistic tactic: If you watch some online gameplay, people frequently drop nine players into coverage. They do this ( obviously ) because it's effective, but it wouldn't be effective in the NFL--or any level for that matter. If it was, coordinators would do it.

For a game to be sim, the same strategies that are effective in reality need to be effective in the game (and strategies that are ineffective in reality need to be ineffective in the game ).

I 100% agree with your definition. When I was the commish for our NCAA football league we had that one rule as our rule and if people did things we had to judge if they were unrealistic or not we would ask ourselves that.

If it wouldn't work in real life then it should not work in the game. If it does then something is wrong with the game.