Madden NFL 18: Initially It Seems A Step (But Not a Leap) Forward

[OhMrHanky]

Quote: Originally Posted by Fuimus Troes

Well, the bandaid fix is what they did last year with the nano blitz, and it nerfed even guys that were ASSIGNED to blitz that you controlled. Ridiculous. And it's absolutely what they did to the speed burst. Like I said in a previous post, pressing that button triggers any defenders close to you to disengage blocks and heatseek towards you like bats out of hell. The ULTIMATE band aid fix...

Yeah, no doubt. That's been there since 15, at the very least, the speed burst thing. And, yeah, it just kills u. I don't know all the ins and outs of their AI coding, but I have to say that when I hear stuff like this, it does sound like poor coding 'philosophy' or 'theory'. In any vid game, as a designer, u absolutely have to cheat to get desired results. This is a fact. No AI is truly 'cerebral'. So, u have to cheat here and there. But, the best AI is created by how and where u cheat. The speed burst is NOT where u cheat, imo. In fact, there should be no cheating there at all. U have RBK rating for the Oline. U have block shed for Dline, u have Strength for both. These are the things that should determine when the block shed actually happens. Speed burst of RB should have nothing to do with it. Pursuit and awareness should dictate the Dline 'sees' the RB and moves in that direction. But, the actual block shed should be performed due to the ratings of the linemen, period.

Same thing with the safeties, now. Again, I really think there's something off with their philosophy. The safety has to be aware of the QB and any WRs coming through, near, or in his zone. He needs to play in a way that makes him equidistant from being able to run to a WR near him or near his zone once the ball is thrown. He should be making adjustments the whole play, not just AFTER the throw, u know? When the ball is thrown, now, his single reason for living is to attack the spot where the ball is going to land or be caught. They have that coded 'correctly,' but they don't have the 'before the throw' coded well at all, it seems.


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[TMJOHNS18]

Quote: Originally Posted by OhMrHanky

Yeah, no doubt. That's been there since 15, at the very least, the speed burst thing. And, yeah, it just kills u. I don't know all the ins and outs of their AI coding, but I have to say that when I hear stuff like this, it does sound like poor coding 'philosophy' or 'theory'. In any vid game, as a designer, u absolutely have to cheat to get desired results.

I agree, it feels that the dev's have taken shortcuts when it comes to refining the game.

For a while now it seems Madden has been coded/designed in a way that favors the casual play now crowd. Things are introduced and tweaked that would appear to be good improvements when viewed within a single game. But once users get into CFM/Head2Head/continued gameplay these changes really fall short and show negative signs.

I don't think this is on purpose, but I do feel it relates to their priorities. They want to add new features, refine gameplay, etc., but if it's not a focused effort then it'll simply be another 'feature' that is dumbed down after a patch or two because it wasn't tested properly. I know the team doesn't have complete control, but it's either shortsightedness or a lack of testing that can really give you half-hearted unbalanced features.

Look at blocked kicks from last year. If you picked up the game every once in a bit, or only played play now verses your friends, it was a great feature. If you played the game repeatedly, especially in CFMs, you ran into a feature that was unbalanced. Now this isn't to say they haven't put in great new features, but unfortunately some of these were dumbed down through patches as well.

Having seen some of the videos of Longshot it feels like another bit of wasted dev time. I'm not knocking the mode itself, just that it looks to not have been ready for this year. I don't know if the higher-ups pushed for a 2017 release, but with some odd-looking cutscenes animations and 'interesting' quicktime choices (moving the ball mid-flight), it seems as though it is rushed or unpolished product.

One wish I would have, if this is the way they are going to add/tweak features, with band-aides, why not add a whole bunch of changes and polish them up by the final patch? Seems each year you either want to play the OTB or final patched version, why not just add a ton of features that work correctly by February

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by OhMrHanky

I saw another post of yours mentioning this. From what you're describing, it sounds kind of bad, imo. Meaning, from what I'm hearing, you're saying that 'if' we put pass rush to 'aggressive,' suddenly the CPU QB plays more realistically? Lol. I mean, this just sounds like another one of those poorly implemented madden things. Do u actually generate more rush? Or, does it matter? Because, if this is the case, it just sounds like another 'artificial' switch put in. Instead of the CPU QB AI sensing any pressure on any given play, this coaching adjustment 'tells' him to be 'jittery' or 'more aware' of the rush regardless of whether or not a player is in his face? So, I mean, this is good to know. But, it still doesn't really solve the overall QB AI. Sort of a bandaid, maybe. Geez. Madden, oh how thou infuriate me. Lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A. I'm sure the developers didn't put this feature in as a band aid. (wow) Yes, you generate more of a rush.

2. I was taught as a boy scout to utilize all the tools you have to the best of your ability.

B. Your mileage may vary.

3. I said to put pass rush to aggressive on every 3rd down, which might equal to 20 to 30% of the time.

C. I don't see what the big deal is. Sliders and coaching adjustments are there for your disposal. There isn't a sports game I've played over the past few decades that I haven't rearranged sliders to my liking. Why wouldn't I/you do the same with coaching adjustments?

[OhMrHanky]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

A. I'm sure the developers didn't put this feature in as a band aid. (wow) Yes, you generate more of a rush. 2. I was taught as a boy scout to utilize all the tools you have to the best of your ability. B. Your mileage may vary. 3. I said to put pass rush to aggressive on every 3rd down, which might equal to 20 to 30% of the time. C. I don't see what the big deal is. Sliders and coaching adjustments are there for your disposal. There isn't a sports game I've played over the past few decades that I haven't rearranged sliders to my liking. Why wouldn't I/you do the same with coaching adjustments?

A. I'm not saying 'they' put it 'in' as a bandaid. I'm saying that 'you' are saying to use it like a bandaid. Lol. What concerns me here is they create this 'aggressive rush' coach adjustment, which is a great idea, I like it, but they improperly code it to these win/loss scenarios we talk about so much. If it does generate quicker/better pass rush and that affects the CPU QB AI, that's ok. However, if u choose not to use aggressive rush on 3rd down, the CPU QB AI should NOT get sacked standing back there like a statue. And, again, I have to say, I really have a feeling that they have coded, 'u change to aggressive pash rush, we lower CPU throw timer,' u know? And, again, for me, this is not the way u do it. U play aggressive, and the CPU should still play based on the actual pass rush. Again, if that's the case, it's ok. But, to reiterate, Im not saying they added it as a bandaid. I'm saying your suggestion to use it is a bandaid for us to use to see better 3rd CPU QB play. And, I don't think it should be necessary. U know?

And, you're sort of looking at 2 different things here.

1. Sliders - yes, I played with these HEAVY a few years ago because I was bound and determined to make this silly madden play actual football!! Lol. . This is perfectly fine, this is OUTSIDE the actual game as an adjustment to how the game plays. And, depending on how each person users their players, sliders can work completely differently, so this is great. Madden should actually offer MORE sliders like they did in the past, but I digress.

2. In game coaching adjustments. These shouldn't affect the CPU AI directly. Meaning, again, if u choose aggressive, it lowers the CPU QB awareness by -5 or something. Totally hypothetical there, I'm not saying that's what's happening, but just an example of what might be happening under the hood. I don't want that. I want the coaching adjustment to affect the QB indirectly, meaning I want the pass rush to be 'better' or 'quicker,' and the QB now throws the ball away. If that's the case, that's fine.

But still, regardless of setting pass rush to aggressive or not, the CPU shouldn't play like that. And, I have a bad feeling, perhaps the way they implemented the coaching adjustments might've affected normal CPU QB play. Like, it's possible they nerfed the CPU QB play slightly so that when u use coaching adjustments, u REALLY see the effect. U know?

So, I mean, to specifically answer your question, I don't want to have to adjust coaching adjustments just to see better QB play. I want to change coach adjustments if I really want to, for coaching reasons. Lol. NOT for CODING reasons!! lol


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[roadman]

Not a MacGyver fan I notice.

A. The discussion is probably null and void because I'm hearing from a few different sources day 0 patch and the QB's are starting to take off and run.

B. Again, I think we are entitled to utilize the materials that we are given and not try to overanalyze a tool too much.

C. Teams IRL try to bring the heat on 3rd down, why not in a video football game?

Your #2- Yes, the agg rush does exactly as intended, makes life helter skleter for the CPU AI.

We should be embracing options instead of finding ways not to embrace them.

I'm just saying the game plays a better game of football when using coaching adjustments, but there are risks to take as well.

No one is forcing anyone to use them, but they are there to use.

[OhMrHanky]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Not a MacGyver fan I notice. A. The discussion is probably null and void because I'm hearing from a few different sources day 0 patch and the QB's are starting to take off and run. B. Again, I think we are entitled to utilize the materials that we are given and not try to overanalyze a tool too much. C. Teams IRL try to bring the heat on 3rd down, why not in a video football game? Your #2- Yes, the agg rush does exactly as intended, makes life helter skleter for the CPU AI. We should be embracing options instead of finding ways not to embrace them. I'm just saying the game plays a better game of football when using coaching adjustments, but there are risks to take as well. No one is forcing anyone to use them, but they are there to use.

Macgyver fan? No, I never watched the show. Lol

If u think I don't like using all the tools available, you're incorrect. I'm a control freak, actually. Lol. And, I love being able to control everything in the game. I tried to dissect those GD sliders almost everyday for a GD YEAR for M25, specifically. Oh, god. It was awful trying to get a realistic form of football out of that game. Lol.

But, you're missing my point just a little. And, it's all good. To each his own. I'm a 'why' person. I want to know 'why' something works and I want it to make sense and I don't want it to be a bandaid/crutch/etc.

As an example. What if this 'play aggressive makes QBs play realistic' was 100% of the time? Meaning, these 2 scenarios were 100% of the time because of the way they were programmed?

1. U don't use aggressive rush, the QB acts like a moron on every 3rd and long.

2. U use aggressive pass rush every 3rd down, the QB plays realistically.

If this happened 100% of the time, I think u would be ok with that. I wouldn't. And, again, to each his own. And, admittedly, I forgot about the coaching adjustments, in general, so I'm ok with changing for 3rd and longs. But, arguably, there may be times that as a coach u don't want to go too aggressive because u are winning by a lot or something or maybe they've run some screens or RB draws on u. So, u make that coach adjustment, and now the QB plays like a moron, again.

If the game has been programmed that way, and I'm not saying it is, who knows? But, if it is, it's a poor implementation, imo, and isn't geared towards realism. As I said earlier, as an AI program designer, u do have to cheat. U absolutely have to cheat somewhere to make it 'look real' or 'look smart'. But, imo, there's a right and wrong way to do it, and there's a better and best way to do it.

So, ultimately, I'll prob go aggressive on 3rd and longs, at the very least, but I'll continue to be disappointed in their programming choices.

lol.


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[Gotmadskillzson]

I played an entire half with it set to aggressive against Cam Newton. Cam Newton attempted to scramble once but got caught from behind before he crossed the line of scrimmage and was knocked out for a quarter. Back up came in and got sacked. What I noticed when Cam came back, he just threw the ball quicker and CPU called more short route plays.

[Toupal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gotmadskillzson

I played an entire half with it set to aggressive against Cam Newton. Cam Newton attempted to scramble once but got caught from behind before he crossed the line of scrimmage and was knocked out for a quarter. Back up came in and got sacked. What I noticed when Cam came back, he just threw the ball quicker and CPU called more short route plays.

It is nice to see that the computer has some logic to it in that regards.