EA Needs to completely overhaul the QB play above and beyond just awareness rating

[Playmakers]

First off, I'm going to start off by saying I have not played the Madden 23 beta and my post is strictly about how Madden has for a decade used the same ratings and logic to Simulate QB play.

I was reading the Madden 23 gameplay gridiron notes and came across this information by EA as to how the QB's will differ.

https://www.ea.com/games/madden-nfl/...ional-football

AI-Quarterbacks
AI-quarterbacks have been tuned to give better differentiation in how well they see the field under pressure depending on their ratings. Quarterbacks with a lower awareness rating will struggle to find open receivers and have a higher chance of throwing to a partially covered target, allowing your defense to make a big play.

Now here's my issue with that statement by EA. They say this every year and the results are the same no true separation amongst the AI QB's.

Let's dig into the ratings they have for all QB's.

EA started out with just throw Power and Throw Accuracy to rate QB's along with Awareness.

Then in 2011 EA added the short, medium, long and PA rating to each QB. (BTW that PA Rating should be something that CPU QB's actually utilize to fool the Human defense based on their rating, but it doesn't)

In 2019 they proceeded to add the Throw Under Pressure, Throw on Run and Break Sack rating.

The QB Traits were added a few years ago which were supposed to add tendencies to each QB.

Now here's the problem despite all those ratings being added over the past decade only the Awareness rating seems to dictate their actual gameplay.

And for the record all scrambling QB's do the same thing as well. They run and slide without any real purpose it seems like. They could pick up 5-10 yards extra sometimes and they will still slide and give up as if there's no true ball carrier logic.

Here we are going on Madden 23, and they are highlighting Awareness as being the driving force.

QB play in Madden is generic and redundant. Despite all these ratings the QB's have no true identity. Unlike NBA 2K where the players move and react like their real-life counter parts Madden QB's all do the same exact things.

I was reading the 23 Beta impressions and the poster named schaidt1 posted this feedback

Cpu qb play still leaves a lot to be desired-
They do not attempt enough deep or medium range throws, lots of dinking n dunking.
They still instantly snap the ball at line of scrimmage
They don't try to draw you offsides
They rarely, rarely audible
They move around in the pocket, but rarely take off and scramble past the line of scrimmage.

Playcalling needs a revamp
Cpu playcalling is bad. 3rd and 5 from the opponents 12 yard line, yup let's call 4 verts.
4 verts in general is called/suggested way to often

When I read that feedback it immediately frustrated me because here we are on NG systems and QB's are still doing the same things.

This was my response without having to type everything over again

I guess I should be upset at this point to hear about those issues still being in the game but at this point I've just grown used to it by EA.

Just seems like we never get authentic/dynamic QB play by the CPU. They will each react and think the same until there's some kind of Rating or tendency that goes above and beyond just the Awareness rating they assign guys.

Maybe adding somethings like Improvise ability, Pre Snap read ability, Clock Management awareness, Man vs Zone Coverage(s) recognize ability into the Tendency Category might be helpful. But what ever they (EA) are doing simply isn't working because it's just copy and paste over and over again year after year.

In fact the last time I recall a QB even doing audibles was Peyton Manning back in like Madden 12 or 13 I believe. He would point out defenders and change plays multiple times.

Seems like EA should have the ability to bring in 6-8 of the top QB's in the league and find a way to replicate their tendencies into the game with these high-powered systems.

Now to wrap this thing up as I mentioned in the Beta thread, I'm still get Madden 23 because I love Football and there's no other options for me to play.

But come on EA you got to completely overhaul this QB logic system. Despite having short, medium and long accuracy ratings 80% of the time the QB's aren't using those ratings. The bottom line is in SIMULATION when you SIM the games only Awareness matters and then on the field when we play the game your still only representing these QB's with the basic awareness rating.

We go and adjust sliders trying to get the best QB play by the CPU and in reality, the Sliders aren't changing your QB logic. It's not changing how they read defenses or how they execute their own team's offense.

I know the majority of the people who play Madden don't play vs the AI so it's not issue. But there are those of us who still prefer to play vs the AI offline and for the past decade your QB Awareness logic has never changed and your posting a gridiron note for Madden 23 hyping Awareness as if it's never been as important before

[knoxvols1]

You said it yourself "your still going to buy madden 23 because it's the only option" Well EA knows this and nothing will ever change until people stop buying their roster update every year for 70 to 100 bucks

[kennylc321]

Quote: Originally Posted by knoxvols1

You said it yourself "your still going to buy madden 23 because it's the only option" Well EA knows this and nothing will ever change until people stop buying their roster update every year for 70 to 100 bucks

Honestly I am also in the crowd that knows he's buying the game. Yes, they will get my $70 but the biggest difference with me is that my expectations are tempered. I know that the game won't be fully operational until the January patch. I guess with me, it helps that I work full time and more, I have a wife and daughter so between all of that, I probably get about 3 hours a week of gaming time. And dropping $70 on the game doesn't really hurt me financially.

It's the other people I feel bad for. The ones who do nothing but whine, whine, whine, and whine more about the game. Talk about how expensive the game is, yet still buy it.

[canes21]

I said it in another thread already, but if EA would take the time to have the CPU utilize the new passing mechanic that the User has with the ability to lead throws in a revolutionary way, it would be a gigantic leap forward for QB play. Even without improved pocket awareness, scramble logic, and QB mannerisms, this would open up the passing game in a way never seen by any CPU QB in any football game ever.

The crazy thing is, it wouldn't require EA to revolutionize the wheel either. Let me try to keep it simple and point out what Madden does already and what is needed to make this work.

What we know Madden already does:

It tracks the ball's location at all times and it tracks all 22 players' locations at all times. These are very rudimentary things that have been done in Madden and video games for nearly forever. They are actors in the scene and are tracked x amount of times per microsecond really.

It also tracks the WR catch radius as we can see with the new system. The game knows, based on the WR's athletic ratings like speed, accel, and CoD, the QB's throw power, and the distance between the QB and the WR where a ball can be thrown and the WR can be guaranteed to at least reach that spot for a potential catch. This is also very rudimentary. These types of calculations take nearly zero processing power and can literally be done thousands of times per second for all WR's if you really want them to.

What EA can do is take this tracked information they already have and simply program the system to run more calculations to find what the optimal throws are. This, again, is rudimentary, and is a calculation that would take little processing power and could be updated something as little as 30 times per second. It could even calculate the 50 most optimal throws so that #1 is the best throw a QB could make, think a fade thrown in a spot only the WR can get to, and the 50th most optimal throw may actually be a terrible throw into coverage. This is good, though, because the system needs to know the good and bad throws to make to then have ratings step in and have the QB ratings dictate how often a QB is making the best throws.

If EA had these calculations running and QB awareness dictated how often the most optimal decisions were made while the accuracy ratings dictated how close to pinpoint accuracy the QB was, the QB play would be potentially scarily realistic. This is already what we as the users do in our heads subconsciously when throwing. When we see a safety shading inside and we have a guy running the streak on the outside, we know to lead them more towards the sideline to keep the ball from the safety. That is our brains calculating what the safest/most optimal throw is to that WR in that instance. This is what EA needs the CPU to see and do, and again, it wouldn't take much processing power to do.

If EA did this, we would start seeing the CPU throw back shoulder throws, they'd throw a safe low throw on a slant in the endzone that is either dropped by the WR or caught for a TD, they'd know to throw a fade deep towards the pylon so that the WR is the only one that can get a hand on it, and so on. They would finally stop throwing a tethered pass that was led the same way trying to hit the WR in stride every time. The CPU QB would know when to throw it and hit someone in stride, they'd know when to take some off of the throw, they'd know when to throw it behind the WR to be more safe, etc.

I sincerely ask that EA makes an attempt to get the QB play to do this. We already have everything being tracked at this very moment that is needed for EA to revolutionize their QB play. Please, EA, have the game use this new pinpoint throwing mechanic and have the system run calculations that decide where the QB throws it inside, or outside, of that WR catch radius so we can see them behave exactly like human players do once the throw is started.

We'd finally see Aaron Rodgers heaving 45 yard passes that are frozen ropes in spots only his WR's could get to. We'd see Brady finding holes in zone coverage every time he is given time in the pocket, we'd see Carson Wentz continuously get less than ideal rolls and throw passes into bad spots, and so on. This would be the first step, and a major one, towards getting better QB play that really separates the elite QB's from the greats, and the greats, from the good, and the good from the rest.

EA could then build off of this and have the already existing traits potentially have more influence over what types of throws are made. If we had a classic roster, they could take this new system and give Rex Grossman a trait or tendency that has him throw the deep ball more often regardless if it is ideal or not, he'd try the most idea deep ball, but that doesn't mean it is still a good throw. On the other hand, it could take other QB's who were known to just dink and dunk all day and have their traits or tendency have their dice rolls skew towards the safer underneath throws even if those have less RAC potential.

EA could really take the CPU passing game to a level never seen before and they already have the framework built to do it, they just need to take one more step and we'd be there and it would make Madden 23 the best Madden ever on the field and make it potentially one of the best football games on the field ever, even with the flaws we know it will likely still have.

[jpdavis82]

I don’t have time to read all of the posts above, but I have the beta and I will say this, I’m making & seeing throws with Rodgers & Mahomes that I haven’t been able to make or seen the AI make with lesser QBs.

[PVarck31]

Not trying to minimize any of this, but first play by the CPU offense in the beta they threw deep downfield.

In four games, I've seen the CPU QBs throw deep and medium routes many times.

I've gotten burned, and I've gotten picks. But I can say that it does happen. At least it has for me. And at a realistic rate from my experience.

[Playmakers]

Great feedback canes

That was a good read and I agree with most of what you said.

It's kind of like how Denzel Washington once said in his movie "I don't how the cell phone works, I just know how to use it"

LOL

But it's the same with these consoles for me

I don't know what goes behind the new Passing Mechanics for the USER but surely if we the USER has the capability as you mentioned then the CPU should have those same options.

It's been beyond time for EA to overhaul the AI QB play in this series. They should look and play more like their real-life counterparts even if we aren't controlling them on the field.

Like I said before I appreciate EA repeatedly looking to improve the WR/DB play, but QB is most important position on the field show it some love to....

I'm sure most fans can agree that the game gets stale every year because the lack of authentic looking QB play by the AI on the field. It might not be the main reason but it's part of the problem.

[canes21]

Quote: Originally Posted by Playmakers

Great feedback canes That was a good read and I agree with most of what you said. It's kind of like how man Denzel Washington once said in his movie "I don't how the cell phone works, I just know how to use it" LOL But it's the same with these consoles for me I don't know what goes behind the new Passing Mechanics for the USER but surely if we the USER has the capability as you mentioned then the CPU should have those same options. It's been beyond time for EA to overhaul the AI QB play in this series. They should look and play more like their real-life counterparts even if we aren't controlling them on the field. Like I said before I appreciate EA repeatedly looking to improve the WR/DB play, but QB is most important position on the field show it some love to.... I'm sure most fans can agree that the game gets stale every year because the lack of authentic looking QB play by the AI on the field. It might not be the main reason but it's part of the problem.

Appreciate it. Great thread that needs to be discussed. With regards to what is all being done, it is all just math behind the scenes. The data that is required for the CPU QB play to be opened up is already being tracked now. What's limiting the QB play is simply how they are built to throw the ball.

Think of a curl route in Madden. If the CPU QB ever goes to throw a curl route, they will attempt to throw it directly at the WR every single time. Now inaccurate throws may give the illusion of them throwing it to the left or right of the WR, but the QB is always trying to throw right at their chest simply because all CPU QB's are programmed to throw a ball that is tethered to the route.

What needs to change is for the CPU to no longer be tethered to the route the way they are, instead they simply need to see the catch radius, which they already have the ability to since the game already tracks that, and they'd see where inside of that radius they can throw a ball that the WR can get to and the DB is least likely to.

Now, if they did that, in this curl scenario, the QB would dynamically throw the ball based on positioning. If the DB was shading the inside of the WR, the CPU QB would now have the knowledge to throw it outside and would attempt that. If the DB was shading over the top, the CPU QB would see the calculations are saying throw it underneath so the WR can shield the DB away from the ball. If the DB was playing the outside shoulder, the CPU QB knows to throw it inside.

It really isn't complex. It's simple tracking and math algorithms that EA already does for the most part. The major change is only where the CPU QB is allowed to throw the ball. Once they aren't tethered to the routes anymore and have the freedom to throw it anywhere inside or out of that catch radius, then the QB play takes a step no other football game has taken before.