Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion Thread 2015

[bcruise]

Quote: Originally Posted by Heroesandvillains

Nice. Keep us posted. The API will call for balls off the plate this year. I think it has for awhile but it seems to me they've increased its likelihood for 15. A few years ago, if I recall correctly, it didn't happen at all.

Yeah, I think this is just an on-screen extension of how the game's pitching AI strategy operates this year as opposed to previous ones. It's no accident that I've seen a lot more 2-0's and 1-1's than 0-2's this year - the CPU definitely nibbles a lot more this time around. And API probably uses that same logic.

[Jr.]

Catching up a bit as there has been a lot of action since my last post.

Quick question, is there any way to turn off the catcher's mitt while on Dynamic Difficulty? I hate that it shows up, but I've never seen an option to have it off, but API still on. I want the catcher to give signs, I just don't want that glove to show up.

Back to my first post, about throwing pitches in the zone and a higher likelihood of "hitting" the spot.. is it that you're hitting the exact location, or that you're considering "hitting the spot" as throwing a strike?

Again, if you're aiming inside the strike zone, the amount of error that can occur and still be a strike is larger than if you're aiming on the corners/edge of the zone. On the edge, you may miss at the same rate as aiming in the zone, but you're throwing balls because that error is more likely to move the pitch out of the zone, rather than missing but still being in the strike zone.

Does that make sense?

Like others, I don't have anything but a few years of personal experience and observation. I just know that I pitch on the corners as much as possible and it doesn't seem like my pitchers are any less accurate, but the misses end up as balls more often (for obvious reasons).

Fantastic discussion, though.

Quote: Originally Posted by Hanoble

I would almost guarantee the pitch call and location animations are linked with their respective pitches and calls, not simply random animations. One way to test it would be to turn on the API and note what the catcher calls and then hit R2 to actually see what he is calling for. At work so cannot do it myself, but I would be VERY surprised if the animations were not specific to pitch and location. I myself tend to not pay as much attention to the catcher as I probably should, I try to play very fast paced games though with fast play on to get through a couple seasons, but the little bit I have paid attention they seem to be realistic to me.

On the catcher's signs, they are linked to the pitches. So 1 is the X pitch, 2 is O, 3 is Triangle, 4 is Square, and Wiggle (4 fingers slightly moving) is R1.

[bcruise]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jr.

Catching up a bit as there has been a lot of action since my last post. Quick question, is there any way to turn off the catcher's mitt while on Dynamic Difficulty? I hate that it shows up, but I've never seen an option to have it off, but API still on. I want the catcher to give signs, I just don't want that glove to show up. Back to my first post, about throwing pitches in the zone and a higher likelihood of "hitting" the spot.. is it that you're hitting the exact location, or that you're considering "hitting the spot" as throwing a strike? Again, if you're aiming inside the strike zone, the amount of error that can occur and still be a strike is larger than if you're aiming on the corners/edge of the zone. On the edge, you may miss at the same rate as aiming in the zone, but you're throwing balls because that error is more likely to move the pitch out of the zone, rather than missing but still being in the strike zone. Does that make sense? Like others, I don't have anything but a few years of personal experience and observation. I just know that I pitch on the corners as much as possible and it doesn't seem like my pitchers are any less accurate, but the misses end up as balls more often (for obvious reasons). Fantastic discussion, though.

On the catcher's mitt/API question, turning it to default will turn the mitt and highlighted pitch off IF you're at All-Star pitching difficulty level or above on Dynamic. There's no other way around that if you're on Veteran+ or lower, but if you're pitching from a behind-the-pitcher view you can turn API off completely and still read the catcher's hand signals for what pitch it's calling. Personally, this is the route I'd take if you still want the catcher to call the game, but don't want an exact target.


As for the rest, I'd say I agree with your line of thinking - that mistake pitches still happen no matter where the pitch is aimed, but the effect is amplified when the miss occurs on a pitch that is aimed nearer to the heart of the plate. If you aim further outside, a bad accuracy pitch is much less likely to be hung over the middle and potentially get hit hard.

No matter which method of pitching I'm using, that fact ALWAYS plays into my pitch selection and strategy.

[Jr.]

Quote: Originally Posted by bcruise

On the catcher's mitt/API question, turning it to default will turn the mitt and highlighted pitch off IF you're at All-Star pitching difficulty level or above on Dynamic. There's no other way around that if you're on Veteran+ or lower, but if you're pitching from a behind-the-pitcher view you can turn API off completely and still read the catcher's hand signals for what pitch it's calling. Personally, this is the route I'd take if you still want the catcher to call the game, but don't want an exact target. As for the rest, I'd say I agree with your line of thinking - that mistake pitches still happen no matter where the pitch is aimed, but the effect is amplified when the miss occurs on a pitch that is aimed nearer to the heart of the plate. If you aim further outside, a bad accuracy pitch is much less likely to be hung over the middle and potentially get hit hard. No matter which method of pitching I'm using, that fact ALWAYS plays into my pitch selection and strategy.

Thank you much for that info. For some reason I was of the idea that when you turned that API off, the catcher stopped giving signs, so I never even tried it.

And we're the same in that line of thinking of pitch location.

[SpritePuck]

I play with All-Star with Armor&Swords sliders API off but still use catchers signs.

Here is my understanding of reading catchers signs. You can do this with API off and have them call your game. You will need to somewhat pick your spots but the catcher often gives you a side or lets you know if he wants it up in the zone.

Using API to confirm pitch signs I have found the following. I used Ten different top pitchers with different pitches and number of pitches in practice mode to test this:
They each faced 9 batters twice, for 18 batters total. For total of 180 batters faced. I should have counted pitches but did not. Tried to go big counts though.
Difficulty:
ALL-STAR
API set ON - to see what the sign went with

Pitchers used:

Kershaw
Lester
Price
Bumgarner
Kluber
Wainwright
Cueto
Lackey (sorry a huge Sox fan, I know he is old and not an ace anymore)
Kimbrel
Chapman

Things to note:
Never did I receive a flashed four for a pitcher that only has four pitches.
Never did I receive a break call for a pitch with wrong or no break.
Never did I receive a thigh tap but API placement on wrong side.
Never did I receive a sign for one number when API asked for another.
Never did a standard four sign by catcher indicate the #5 R1 pitch API flash.

Catching signs for calling pitches:

1 finger = X
2 fingers = O
3 fingers = △
4 fingers = ▢
* Flashed 4 = R1
** closed clenched fist = hard fastball (only one I am not 100% sure of)

* He wiggles them quick and then holds four. In game it is not mistakeable!
In softball we call it a flashed sign (may have an official baseball name). We recently started calling it twinkle fingers. Cause from the rubber it looks like a star twinkle. Partially from tape on fingers, which is there to ensure pitcher sees fingers. A 2 thrown when a 3 is called for is not only possibly a huge hit but also very tough to catch.

** About closed/clenched fist
The closed fist has yet for me to occur *in practice. In game it seems to come in fastball counts. Two thoughts occur, it is either a glitch, which I doubt, or a hard fastball. I did for a while think #5 R1 was a possibility but I have since received the sign with a closer that has only three pitches. Thus my guess is it means bring the gas laddy! *But since I never have had it with API displayed I am guessing. I have ruled it out as #5 as that for me has always been a flashed four, plus the closer with only three pitches received it.

Locations:
The quick explanation of how catchers call in The Show
Last place touched is side wanted.
Knee is out of zone.
Thigh is in the zone.

listed somewhat in order of most occurring here they are:

- Sign held long and fades down is standard pitch call.
Could be anywhere.
This is the standard pitch sign.

- Quick sign
Up in the zone. Top third of strike zone or out of zone up.
It is very much noticeably faster than other signs. Most often the 1 but sometimes other numbers. Sign quick motion down then he sets. No indication of where he wants it left or right wise, just up. Could be up and in or up and out. Seems count determined and batter hot zone may also be taken into account as to if inside or out.
*all pitches wanted up in the zone do not get a quick sign but all quick signs are wanted up in the zone. I hope that makes sense

The more specific more rare signs:
Some pitchers get these more than others and which are most common varies by pitcher. Lefties with Cutters get thigh taps a ton to direction of the break.

- Sign with a non glove leg squeeze (move) in toward hand, he kinda taps the thigh with sign (can tell with multiple finger signs he touches thigh, with one it looks like just leg movement)- *right leg as all catchers have glove on left hand
in zone non glove side
* his right leg, so your left zone
(sometimes this means pitch must be started out of zone and break back in)
he kinda squeezes his legs in but non glove leg moves in way more than glove side... once you notice it, you will not miss it!

- Sign then thigh
in zone thigh side that is tapped
(again could mean start out of zone to get pitch in zone on side called for)

- Sign then knee then same side thigh
start out of zone and break back in on side tapped
(like a backdoor slider)

- Sign then thigh then other thigh
break across the plate but stay in zone toward *second indication
* the second thigh he tapped

- Sign then knee then opposite thigh
start out of zone and break in toward thigh tap side
(sweeping curve mostly is all that works with this, everything else ends fairly middle zone, the call is very rare)

- Sign then knee
out of zone knee side (a chase pitch)

- Sign thigh then knee
start thigh side and break out knee side

Note guys with 2seamers and sinkers for X the #1 pitch sometimes the API wants it up in the zone, so the catcher calls for them. I believe this is an error as the number one pitch is usually a 4 seam fastball. I would never throw any 2seam pitch up there unless it has more horizontal movement and is breaking out of the zone. Actually, I just would never do it. A 2seamer up in the zone is a souvenir for some fan with bleacher seats.

I was extremely happy to learn the catchers use a standard pitch calling system that is used by USA Junior softball and I assume baseball. Kinda cool how much is in this game and how accurate they made it. I truly believe you could learn the mental side of baseball from The Show. Of course the muscle memory may not be quite so easy.

As George V. Higgins once penned,
"The seductiveness of baseball is that almost everyone with an abiding interest in it knows exactly how it should be played. And secretly believes that he could do it, if only God had seen fit to make him just a little bit less clumsy."

[SpritePuck]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jr.

Back to my first post, about throwing pitches in the zone and a higher likelihood of "hitting" the spot.. is it that you're hitting the exact location, or that you're considering "hitting the spot" as throwing a strike? Like others, I don't have anything but a few years of personal experience and observation. I just know that I pitch on the corners as much as possible and it doesn't seem like my pitchers are any less accurate, but the misses end up as balls more often (for obvious reasons). Fantastic discussion, though....

I throw on corners too as Greg Maddux once said the key to go pitching is low and away.. <----- paraphrased

What I and I think hero were talking about was when selecting location, less vibration means more accuracy. So, one can still hit corners with relatively low to no vinpbration. As vibration is caused by where pitch starts not where it finishes. So, say a 4 seam fastball high and tight will vibrate but that is an accurate pitch. A curve landing high and tight (I know dumb example) would vibrate like crazy as you would be starting it way out of zone. Vs. starting a curve somewhat center it ends very low or even out of the zone, you have no vibration and hit the spot more.

When I say hitting location I mean within a ball or so of where aiming. I used to use classic pitching indicator so exact spot aimed is not easy to know. I now use no indicator so it is just feel.

But yes pitch on the black and low corners especially. Just I feel if fighting the pitches nature trying to place it way to precise the controller vibrate and accuracy goes down the greater the vibration. To me it is like in the actual game when they say a pitcher is "aiming" his pitches. The key is to use the break without fighting it. Of course never through anything down the middle.

I think we do the same thing and I just saud it strangely before. Because what you explain sounds exactly like how I go about it.

[ryan36]

I can't fire up the game right now to even look at the signs from the catcher, but wouldn't a fist be a call for a pitchout?? I have never seen the API call for a pitchout or pickoff move , but usually a fist is a sign for the running game...

[Hanoble]

Quote: Originally Posted by SpritePuck

I play with All-Star with Armor&Swords sliders API off but still use catchers signs. Here is my understanding of reading catchers signs. You can do this with API off and have them call your game. You will need to somewhat pick your spots but the catcher often gives you a side or lets you know if he wants it up in the zone. Using API to confirm pitch signs I have found the following. I used Ten different top pitchers with different pitches and number of pitches in practice mode to test this: They each faced 9 batters twice, for 18 batters total. For total of 180 batters faced. I should have counted pitches but did not. Tried to go big counts though. Difficulty: ALL-STAR API set ON - to see what the sign went with Pitchers used: Kershaw Lester Price Bumgarner Kluber Wainwright Cueto Lackey (sorry a huge Sox fan, I know he is old and not an ace anymore) Kimbrel Chapman Things to note: Never did I receive a flashed four for a pitcher that only has four pitches. Never did I receive a break call for a pitch with wrong or no break. Never did I receive a thigh tap but API placement on wrong side. Never did I receive a sign for one number when API asked for another. Never did a standard four sign by catcher indicate the #5 R1 pitch API flash. Catching signs for calling pitches: 1 finger = X 2 fingers = O 3 fingers = △ 4 fingers = ▢ * Flashed 4 = R1 ** closed clenched fist = hard fastball (only one I am not 100% sure of) * He wiggles them quick and then holds four. In game it is not mistakeable! In softball we call it a flashed sign (may have an official baseball name). We recently started calling it twinkle fingers. Cause from the rubber it looks like a star twinkle. Partially from tape on fingers, which is there to ensure pitcher sees fingers. A 2 thrown when a 3 is called for is not only possibly a huge hit but also very tough to catch. ** About closed/clenched fist The closed fist has yet for me to occur *in practice. In game it seems to come in fastball counts. Two thoughts occur, it is either a glitch, which I doubt, or a hard fastball. I did for a while think #5 R1 was a possibility but I have since received the sign with a closer that has only three pitches. Thus my guess is it means bring the gas laddy! *But since I never have had it with API displayed I am guessing. I have ruled it out as #5 as that for me has always been a flashed four, plus the closer with only three pitches received it. Locations: The quick explanation of how catchers call in The Show Last place touched is side wanted. Knee is out of zone. Thigh is in the zone. listed somewhat in order of most occurring here they are: - Sign held long and fades down is standard pitch call. Could be anywhere. This is the standard pitch sign. - Quick sign Up in the zone. Top third of strike zone or out of zone up. It is very much noticeably faster than other signs. Most often the 1 but sometimes other numbers. Sign quick motion down then he sets. No indication of where he wants it left or right wise, just up. Could be up and in or up and out. Seems count determined and batter hot zone may also be taken into account as to if inside or out. *all pitches wanted up in the zone do not get a quick sign but all quick signs are wanted up in the zone. I hope that makes sense The more specific more rare signs: Some pitchers get these more than others and which are most common varies by pitcher. Lefties with Cutters get thigh taps a ton to direction of the break. - Sign with a non glove leg squeeze (move) in toward hand, he kinda taps the thigh with sign (can tell with multiple finger signs he touches thigh, with one it looks like just leg movement)- *right leg as all catchers have glove on left hand in zone non glove side * his right leg, so your left zone (sometimes this means pitch must be started out of zone and break back in) he kinda squeezes his legs in but non glove leg moves in way more than glove side... once you notice it, you will not miss it! - Sign then thigh in zone thigh side that is tapped (again could mean start out of zone to get pitch in zone on side called for) - Sign then knee then same side thigh start out of zone and break back in on side tapped (like a backdoor slider) - Sign then thigh then other thigh break across the plate but stay in zone toward *second indication * the second thigh he tapped - Sign then knee then opposite thigh start out of zone and break in toward thigh tap side (sweeping curve mostly is all that works with this, everything else ends fairly middle zone, the call is very rare) - Sign then knee out of zone knee side (a chase pitch) - Sign thigh then knee start thigh side and break out knee side Note guys with 2seamers and sinkers for X the #1 pitch sometimes the API wants it up in the zone, so the catcher calls for them. I believe this is an error as the number one pitch is usually a 4 seam fastball. I would never throw any 2seam pitch up there unless it has more horizontal movement and is breaking out of the zone. Actually, I just would never do it. A 2seamer up in the zone is a souvenir for some fan with bleacher seats. I was extremely happy to learn the catchers use a standard pitch calling system that is used by USA Junior softball and I assume baseball. Kinda cool how much is in this game and how accurate they made it. I truly believe you could learn the mental side of baseball from The Show. Of course the muscle memory may not be quite so easy. As George V. Higgins once penned, "The seductiveness of baseball is that almost everyone with an abiding interest in it knows exactly how it should be played. And secretly believes that he could do it, if only God had seen fit to make him just a little bit less clumsy."

Ridiculously awesome post, these are the types of things that 99% of the player base will never even think twice about or care, but the fact it is there is why The Show is, well, The Show. I spent some time with it tonight as well and saw similar things, and undoubtedly there was a consistency there to where I knew they were using some type of real system.

EXTRA CREDIT: With a runner on second was there any attempt to mask the signals or a change in the usual system? I am unsure if you noted where runners were, but it could very well be that some of your unknowns could be tied to a runner on second and the pitcher/catcher using different signals to stop him from relaying that to the batter (doubt this is actually happening, but it is a LONG STANDING series with a lot of iterations and if they went this far who really knows). Certainly happens in real life, so some food for thought