Directional Hitting

[El_MaYiMbE]

What is directional hitting exactly? its a new feature mentioned for MLB 15, but I am not sure what it is.

The only thing I think it can be is the hitting that we saw in the MVP series.
Its timed hitting, but the left analog stick determines if you want to pull or hit the ball the other way.

Essentially its timing meets Pure Analog, where all you need to worry about is pull vs/opposite field swing (not height of pitch), and timing the swing.

This was implemented very very well back in MVP 2005.
Pulling an outside pitch caused the bad contact, proper physics (considering the technology then), proper batter reaction.

On the opposite pulling an inside pitch, or going the other way with a ball over the plate resulted in balls in the gap or shots the other way. Hoping this is what this is.....

[nomo17k]

Re: Directional Hitting

How much control did directional hitting in MVP 2005 give to users? I'm curious because 2005 was during my dark age as far as gaming is concerned and missed that game entirely.

"Pulling (i.e., preloading pull I assume) an outside pitch caused the bad contact," but how did the game simulated the bad contact?

For example, in real life you can surely pull an outside pitch if you so desire (just dive, extend, and swing a bit earlier), so I don't really understand why the game should automatically give it a bad contact (if it did). The reason why people say you should go the other way with an outside pitch is partly because the particular approach like what I just mentioned makes you vulnerable to pitches inside. But there is no physical reason that should at all be prevented if a hitter decides that's the right thing to do in the situation.

In reality, the dominant factors deciding which way the batted ball takes off after the contact is relative angle the incoming pitch and the bat makes, and given the limitation in how a hitter can physically swing a bat, that angle is mostly determined by swing timing.

So in MVP directional hitting, when you preload "pull" swing and your timing is actually very late on an inside pitch, what result did you get in MVP 2005?

If the timing overrides the preload (which makes more sense to me), then we could argue what the point of preloading is. If the preload overrides the poor timing input by user, then how can a result be physically natural?

I know many guys have raved about MVP 2005, but I'm just curious how things were. As far as my own baseball video gaming experience is concerned, The Show is the only game that has come close to replicating realistic hitting approach (despite remaining issues and limitations... I'm not saying The Show system is perfect).

[Gagnon39]

Re: Directional Hitting

This is, without question, the thing I'm most excited about in MLB 15. Well, that and pitching with Jon Lester. I loved MVP's hitting and have always wanted it in The Show. I hope it is what I think it is.

The big question (in directional hitting or any interface for that matter) is can we still move which way we want to hit the ball (or the PCI for zone) AFTER we press x? If the answer is yes, then I'll be in baseball heaven. My problem with The Show's hitting on zone is that I often time the pitch right but I'm not able to move the PCI where it needs to go because it stops moving once you press the x button.

[kehlis]

Re: Directional Hitting

This is, without question, the thing I'm most excited about in MLB 15. Well, that and pitching with Jon Lester. I loved MVP's hitting and have always wanted it in The Show. I hope it is what I think it is.

The big question (in directional hitting or any interface for that matter) is can we still move which way we want to hit the ball (or the PCI for zone) AFTER we press x? If the answer is yes, then I'll be in baseball heaven. My problem with The Show's hitting on zone is that I often time the pitch right but I'm not able to move the PCI where it needs to go because it stops moving once you press the x button.

As it should.

I hated MVP's directional hitting and love the Show's zone hitting.

I'm 100% okay with them adding it as an option but if they get rid of zone hitting in favor of directional hitting or try and combine the two I would be extremely disappointed.

I want the result of the swing to come from where the analog is at the time I press the swing button and nothing more.

[Gagnon39]

Re: Directional Hitting

As it should.

I hated MVP's directional hitting and love the Show's zone hitting.

I'm 100% okay with them adding it as an option but if they get rid of zone hitting in favor of directional hitting or try and combine the two I would be extremely disappointed.

I want the result of the swing to come from where the analog is at the time I press the swing button and nothing more.

To each their own. And I highly doubt, given SCEA's track record, that they'd take out an option. They've been good about adding option but not at the expense of taking something out especially when they know that a lot of players would be upset about it.

As for swinging where you move the PCI my problem has always been that this is essentially the same mechanic that has existed since Tony LaRussa baseball back on the SEGA Genesis in the early 90's. The ball comes in and you move a circle to where it's going to cross the plate. You do that and time the pitch any you make good contact. When you think of it like that, to me, it just doesn't feel like baseball when I know that essentially I'm trying to move a circle to where the ball is going to be.

It's much more natural (as is hitting a baseball) to try and hit the ball where it's pitched. In all honesty anyone with any kind of hand-eye coordination can consistently make contact (contact being the key word) with little to no concentration on pitches that are lobbed over the plate. So having a mechanic that is so sensitive to the act of actually making contact with the ball is a little too much for me. Now this is all relative, because with that comment someone would say, "I bet you couldn't just make contact by flipping the bat out over and over against a Major League pitcher." And they'd be right. But I guarantee you Matt Carpenter, or any other number of Major Leaguers can REGULARLY just flip the bat out and at least make contact with the ball 90% of the time. And I'm talking literally just weak foul balls with not even half a swing. Imagine a player flipping the bat out with their front hand, just making contact. I'd be willing to bet most Major League hitters could make contact with the ball often doing that. Which, back to my point, illustrates that the hand-eye coordination to make contact with the ball is relatively simple. It's hitting the ball hard, and making solid contact that is difficult.

I'm probably not explaining what I'm trying to say very well here, but it makes sense in my head. Either way, like I said before, to each their own and if you like zone, go for it. That's what I've used the last few years. But I'll quickly disregard that mode if MVP's hitting is in The Show this year. If it's not, I'll be back to zone.

[kehlis]

Re: Directional Hitting

It's much more natural (as is hitting a baseball) to try and hit the ball where it's pitched.

I agree. And that's why I like zone.

Hitting a baseball involves two things. Location and timing. Those two things alone determine direction.

Zone hitting replicates that perfectly. MVP's directional hitting falsely brought on hitting mechanics that made no logical sense.

[nemesis04]

Re: Directional Hitting

As it should.

I hated MVP's directional hitting and love the Show's zone hitting.

I'm 100% okay with them adding it as an option but if they get rid of zone hitting in favor of directional hitting or try and combine the two I would be extremely disappointed.

I want the result of the swing to come from where the analog is at the time I press the swing button and nothing more.

You do not have to worry about zone being taken away.

[MrOldboy]

Re: Directional Hitting

Only thing I am worried about is if this will result in the game taking tendencies into even less effect, or maybe making defensive shifting (especially infield) useless.

I'd actually like to see a hitter's spray chart become more meaningful in the game not less, especially as it pertains to the AI shifting defensively or auto-shifting for the player. It's a huge part of the MLB now. The ideal scenario for me would be the The Show using ground ball, fly ball and power spray charts more heavily. For instance I'd love for certain hitters who have shown little to no opposite-field power to not be able to hit opposite-field homeruns, even huge power guys. Some hitters also pull outside pitches very well (plate coverage) and others have to rely on a more balanced approach and go with outside pitches. Ask Anthony Rizzo if crowding the plate makes it easier to pull the ball, or ask Edwin Encarnacion if he ever tries to not pull a pitch. But in game I simply do not feel a difference between Encarnacion and other hitters with different tendencies.

It's something that I was hoping for when they announced the hit tendencies, but I cannot tell a difference between hitters honestly. And when you hit an opposite-field HR with Alcides Escobar, well it just doesn't represent the game of baseball that realistically.

Here's two spray charts, Ortiz and Ichiro from 2012-2014. One player directionally hits (groundballs) and the other simply does not.

And to show an extreme HR hitter, Brian Dozier's HR chart for 2014. Dozier has yet to hit a HR even close to resembling an opposite-field HR in his career. So in game I'd like to see a player like Dozier represented to where it is near impossible for the player to hit an opposite-field HR with him. Even someone like Edwin Encarnacion only pulls HRs despite having huge power.

I'm not totally opposed to directional hitting, especially since we don't know how it works yet. But, if it means hitting tendencies will become even less meaningful or that the player can hit the ball anywhere with any player, then I am opposed to it unless it can be turned off completely. I want players in game to resemble their actual tendencies. i.e. Ortiz pulling the vast majority of groundballs no matter what "direction" the player tries to hit. Or Brian Dozier or Ichiro only having HR power when pulling the ball.

[Bobhead]

Re: Directional Hitting

As for swinging where you move the PCI my problem has always been that this is essentially the same mechanic that has existed since Tony LaRussa baseball back on the SEGA Genesis in the early 90's. The ball comes in and you move a circle to where it's going to cross the plate. You do that and time the pitch any you make good contact. When you think of it like that, to me, it just doesn't feel like baseball when I know that essentially I'm trying to move a circle to where the ball is going to be.

It's much more natural (as is hitting a baseball) to try and hit the ball where it's pitched.

....

I agree. And that's why I like zone.

Hitting a baseball involves two things. Location and timing. Those two things alone determine direction.

Zone hitting replicates that perfectly. MVP's directional hitting falsely brought on hitting mechanics that made no logical sense.

Completely 100% agree with both of you. This is exactly what I love about Zone hitting.

MVP was incredibly fun, but now that I've been inside the Zone Mansion I just can't picture myself living anywhere else.

[Gagnon39]

Re: Directional Hitting

But with directional hitting you still have to swing where the ball is. At least you did in MVP. If the pitch was low and away and you swung up and in and timed it perfectly, there was still a good chance you'd miss the pitch entirely. If you did make contact it would be very weak. And the same thing happens in The Show with zone. I've had my PCI way, way off the mark, but I timed the ball right and I at least made contact. Either way, and again, to each their own. This is yet one of the many reasons why The Show is so good. So many options.

[El_MaYiMbE]

Re: Directional Hitting

How much control did directional hitting in MVP 2005 give to users? I'm curious because 2005 was during my dark age as far as gaming is concerned and missed that game entirely.

"Pulling (i.e., preloading pull I assume) an outside pitch caused the bad contact," but how did the game simulated the bad contact?

For example, in real life you can surely pull an outside pitch if you so desire (just dive, extend, and swing a bit earlier), so I don't really understand why the game should automatically give it a bad contact (if it did). The reason why people say you should go the other way with an outside pitch is partly because the particular approach like what I just mentioned makes you vulnerable to pitches inside. But there is no physical reason that should at all be prevented if a hitter decides that's the right thing to do in the situation.

In reality, the dominant factors deciding which way the batted ball takes off after the contact is relative angle the incoming pitch and the bat makes, and given the limitation in how a hitter can physically swing a bat, that angle is mostly determined by swing timing.

So in MVP directional hitting, when you preload "pull" swing and your timing is actually very late on an inside pitch, what result did you get in MVP 2005?

If the timing overrides the preload (which makes more sense to me), then we could argue what the point of preloading is. If the preload overrides the poor timing input by user, then how can a result be physically natural?

I know many guys have raved about MVP 2005, but I'm just curious how things were. As far as my own baseball video gaming experience is concerned, The Show is the only game that has come close to replicating realistic hitting approach (despite remaining issues and limitations... I'm not saying The Show system is perfect).

I did not explain it fully because I assumed most were familiar so sorry for that...I will explain a bit more.

There is no pre-load push or pull....Think of timing today in MLB 14, where you press Square, X or , O to swing, but then lets say that at the same time, if the pitch is inside and you are a right handed batter, you had press the button AND pull left at the same time to swing inside.

As you mentioned timing windows did come into play in MVP as well. If you swung earlier on outside pitch you can still pull it if you had enough power or put the right swing on it. You basically tell the batter where you want to hit the ball and they put the best swing to make it possible. This included swinging under a pitch if you said you wanted a ball in the air or over a pitch if you wanted a ground ball. Timing, location, batter attributes, pitcher attributes, pitch type, etc... determine result...like in real life.

In a nutshell its just Zone hitting, with the PCI hidden, and instead of putting the PCI circle EXACTLY where the ball is going, you "aim" in the general area where you think its going to be (up and in, down and away, down, up , etc..). But the aiming is more for where you want the ball to go and not where you want the bat to go..so unlike Zone when you chose to pull an outside pitch you won't miss simply because the "circle" isn't in the right place you might just roll a pitch over instead. You will still swing in miss again, depending on pitch type, location, attributes, timing, etc...

Which leads me to you discussion about Zone hitting. I believe zone hitting is unnatural. When you play baseball in real life, you do not think "oh that pitch is down and away, let me swing slightly above the ball to hit the ball the other way on the ground." You simply swing and your muscle memory/hand eye coordination allows you to make contact in that same manner without thinking of ALL that in the sub-second time window.

Batting is a reactionary thing, Zone hitting makes it almost a guessing game and it slows down the game too much. It also makes it so batting is precise, and while it 100% is in scientific terms, its not how it plays out on the field. Its amazing how an athletes body doesn't need to process "its a ball low and away, let me swing above the ball a little and swing late to hit the ball the other way" Thats basically what you are doing when you are playing a video game as MLB players, its not natural and its too hard. When I am batting as Mike Trout it should not be hard to hit, his attributes should take over and my strategical decisions coupled with the law averages (baseball in a nutshell) should determine if he is successful, and not the 3 second long decision I had to make every pitch, when I only had 0.5 seconds to come to that decision...an athlete simply sees the balls and through muscle memory and hand-eye coordination can make that decision in sub-seconds and influence the swing with out thinking he is being precise, yet achieving it.

Timing Only in MLB The Show is closest to "real" hitting I believe, but it does lack the ability to influence (I know you can pre-load decision today to influence a pitch, again this is also semi-unnatural) and I think MVP's method was the best. If Directional Hitting is this, I am sure SCEA would have improved the 10 yr old method and make the physics, logic, and implementation of it a little smarter.

[Bobhead]

Re: Directional Hitting

How much control did directional hitting in MVP 2005 give to users? I'm curious because 2005 was during my dark age as far as gaming is concerned and missed that game entirely.

"Pulling (i.e., preloading pull I assume) an outside pitch caused the bad contact," but how did the game simulated the bad contact?

For example, in real life you can surely pull an outside pitch if you so desire (just dive, extend, and swing a bit earlier), so I don't really understand why the game should automatically give it a bad contact (if it did). The reason why people say you should go the other way with an outside pitch is partly because the particular approach like what I just mentioned makes you vulnerable to pitches inside. But there is no physical reason that should at all be prevented if a hitter decides that's the right thing to do in the situation.

In reality, the dominant factors deciding which way the batted ball takes off after the contact is relative angle the incoming pitch and the bat makes, and given the limitation in how a hitter can physically swing a bat, that angle is mostly determined by swing timing.

So in MVP directional hitting, when you preload "pull" swing and your timing is actually very late on an inside pitch, what result did you get in MVP 2005?

If the timing overrides the preload (which makes more sense to me), then we could argue what the point of preloading is. If the preload overrides the poor timing input by user, then how can a result be physically natural?

I know many guys have raved about MVP 2005, but I'm just curious how things were. As far as my own baseball video gaming experience is concerned, The Show is the only game that has come close to replicating realistic hitting approach (despite remaining issues and limitations... I'm not saying The Show system is perfect).

MVP simulated contact almost in the same way as The Show's push pull system, but to a far larger significance. If you pulled up and in and the pitch was down and away, your chances of making quality contact were reduced, but not eliminated. The window for timing was dynamically adjusted based upon how your direction aligned with the actual pitch. Trying to up-and-in an away pitch required a higher degree of timing than doing anything with a pitch down the middle.

[Bobhead]

Re: Directional Hitting

Which leads me to you discussion about Zone hitting. I believe zone hitting is unnatural. When you play baseball in real life, you do not think "oh that pitch is down and away, let me swing slightly above the ball to hit the ball the other way on the ground.".

But actually, you do think exactly that. You are moving the bat to where you see the pitch to be, and adjusting it based upon your desired result (sacrifice fly).

Consider this: If you were correct, MLB batters would not hit more fly balls during sacrifice fly situations than they do elsewhere.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/do-batters-try-to-hit-sacrifice-flies/

Zone hitting really does capture hitting more accurately than you seem to believe.

[El_MaYiMbE]

Re: Directional Hitting

But actually, you do think exactly that. You are moving the bat to where you see the pitch to be, and adjusting it based upon your desired result (sacrifice fly).

Consider this: If you were correct, MLB batters would not hit more fly balls during sacrifice fly situations than they do elsewhere.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/do-batters-try-to-hit-sacrifice-flies/

Zone hitting really does capture hitting more accurately than you seem to believe.

You do think that yes, but it took you longer to read my sentence, and it would take you longer to achieve all that with zone hitting, than what actually happens when you are the plate.

While all these things "cross your mind", they happen rather effortlessly.

Using Zone Hitting is too literal. Yes you are literally aiming your bat at the ball in order to make contact, but in reality it is as effortless as just swinging the bat and letting your instincts, practice, and hand-eye coordination find the point of contact.

So while Zone Hitting literally captures the all the moving parts that go into hitting a ball in a certain location, it does not capture the fluid nature of hitting as in real life. Making the the human player holding the remote's ability to read a pitch, think, and react more important than the player they are playing as, who is suppose to react and play as an MLB baseball player who makes this decision in sub-seconds. I play as the Yankees to feel like I am playing with the Yankees, not to play as myself...that what RTTS is for. Zone Hitting is almost a mini-game within the game.

While player skill (person holding the control) is important, it shouldn't hinder the ease (using that term lightly) in which a professional athlete does their job.

It has hard as heck to do a 360 dunk on a regulation rim, but NBA 2K does not make you aim, twirl your stick and stop it at the right moment. Shooting also is aiming, but you dont literally see a floating bullseye that dictates if you hit the back of the rim, off the backboard, etc....The player's attribute, the pressure from the D, attributes, angle, etc...determine what kind of shot you take and where it banks off of. Why should it be any different for baseball and hitting? Because hitting a baseball is harder? To me and you, but to Derek Jeter baseball is easier than basketball.

Now I do not knock it for those who like it and have succeeded with it, as I know some like a challenge. BUt I think the hitting mechanism in MVP series was great, and its that perfect balance between time only hitting and zone hitting that has been missing from the franchise.

Hope I made sense.

[Bobhead]

Re: Directional Hitting

You do think that yes, but it took you longer to read my sentence, and it would take you longer to achieve all that with zone hitting, than what actually happens when you are the plate.

While all these things "cross your mind", they happen rather effortlessly.

Using Zone Hitting is too literal. Yes you are literally aiming your bat at the ball in order to make contact, but in reality it is as effortless as just swinging the bat and letting your instincts, practice, and hand-eye coordination find the point of contact.

So while Zone Hitting literally captures the all the moving parts that go into hitting a ball in a certain location, it does not capture the fluid nature of hitting as in real life. Making the the human player holding the remote's ability to read a pitch, think, and react more important than the player they are playing as, who is suppose to react and play as an MLB baseball player who makes this decision in sub-seconds. I play as the Yankees to feel like I am playing with the Yankees, not to play as myself...that what RTTS is for. Zone Hitting is almost a mini-game within the game.

While player skill (person holding the control) is important, it shouldn't hinder the ease (using that term lightly) in which a professional athlete does their job.

It has hard as heck to do a 360 dunk on a regulation rim, but NBA 2K does not make you aim, twirl your stick and stop it at the right moment. Shooting also is aiming, but you dont literally see a floating bullseye that dictates if you hit the back of the rim, off the backboard, etc....The player's attribute, the pressure from the D, attributes, angle, etc...determine what kind of shot you take and where it banks off of. Why should it be any different for baseball and hitting? Because hitting a baseball is harder? To me and you, but to Derek Jeter baseball is easier than basketball.

Now I do not knock it for those who like it and have succeeded with it, as I know some like a challenge. BUt I think the hitting mechanism in MVP series was great, and its that perfect balance between time only hitting and zone hitting that has been missing from the franchise.

Hope I made sense.

It feels pretty effortless to me. I just lock onto the strike zone and react. I get what you're saying but it is not something I can relate to.