Werewolf XXVI: The Thing - GAME OVER! THINGS WIN!!!

[st.cronin]

Okay, if my previous suggestion has been passed on (I'd still like everyone to at least chip in with what they think), then I reckon that today we should test one of the prime suspects who are being banded about, my preference would be one from Barkeep (to still go back and try to confirm Quik's death, I do notice that he hasn't been swearing etc. lately), JeeberD or Blade. Others may want to go after RA or whomever. Then at night Coffee Warlord has another viewing, in the morning reports his viewing, and we test him to confrim/deny veracity.

I am setting up the VOTE BLADE headquarters at the local mattress store. Volunteers are needed.

- He voted for dubb
- When saldana was being voted on, he tried real hard to get us to vote for BK
- He's been playing way out of character: Normally he's very logical and rigorous, but this game he's been weird.

[st.cronin]

I assume WVU is clean - his absence from the game the last couple of days tells me he's not a Thing. The other Thing could have pmed him to get his attention.

[Raiders Army]

There is the possibility that he was playing the UTR role.

[st.cronin]

There is the possibility that he was playing the UTR role.

What does that mean?

[Coffee Warlord]

Under The Radar.

In this case, way way WAY under the radar.

[Raiders Army]

Under the Radar role. He was just maintaining a low profile to avoid suspicion.

[WVUFAN]

One of the reasons I'm posting so much, in addition to trying to be more active in the game that I've been out of for a few days, it to eliminate the "Under the Radar" thing I've gotten over the last few days. So I'm trying to be a blabbermouth on purpose. :-)

[st.cronin]

I think missing two votes would be taking that too far. That's what I'm talking about - not the lack of activity, the lack of VOTES.

[Swaggs]

Wow... Interesting turn of events since I checked off.

Although I'm not so certain it was the best time to reveal it, I believe that CW probably is the seer. I cannot see much of a point in voting for him. If he is the seer and is then cleared through testing, we lose any chance at picking someone off and then it immediately turns into night action.

Hopefully there is a bodyguard, witness, or someone that can protect and/or identify him at night, or else he is probably not of much use again unless someone can vouch for him.

[Raiders Army]

IMHO, this was a perfect game to play UTR. Things don't want to be found. Things don't want to be tested. That's why I had some hesitation voting for Blade. What I'm sure of are that some of his actions are not consistent with some of the previous games (post count especially). To be more clear, he was pretty defensive when I came out with a list of people whom I considered to be suspicious based on vote counts; however, I find his reactive nature to be consistent with his previous games...but he has not welcomed getting tested. I welcome you to test me, but you will lose a day of testing and possibly another one of us to conversion. That was saldana's mistake early on when he tried to backtrack and say that he was used to the other games and (temporarily) thought that a vote was certain death.

[WVUFAN]

I believe that CW probably is the seer. I cannot see much of a point in voting for him. If he is the seer and is then cleared through testing, we lose any chance at picking someone off and then it immediately turns into night action.


I think he's the Seer too. I just think he was converted early (maybe a lucky break by the Things). I know the justification that Coffee said earlier, but I just feel that since Coffee is, IMO, a very, very good player, and this sounds like a good strategy. As it stands right now, most of you feel Coffee is safe. This is one of those games where NO ONE should ever be considered safe. But most of you are defending him. That's a dangerous thing in this game.

So, you can potentially waste a vote on someone else, or eliminate the chance, at least this round, that Coffee isn't playing all of you. That seems not, at least to me, to be a wasted vote. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, but all of you should at least be considering Coffee as a suspect, and if you're not, you should be wondering if you're playing right into the Things' plans.

That's my .02 cents.

[WVUFAN]

dola -- After reading my last post, I need to lay off the commas so much. :)

[st.cronin]

lol @ the contrast between post 760 and 761

[path12]

IMHO, this was a perfect game to play UTR. Things don't want to be found. Things don't want to be tested. That's why I had some hesitation voting for Blade. What I'm sure of are that some of his actions are not consistent with some of the previous games (post count especially). To be more clear, he was pretty defensive when I came out with a list of people whom I considered to be suspicious based on vote counts; however, I find his reactive nature to be consistent with his previous games...but he has not welcomed getting tested. I welcome you to test me, but you will lose a day of testing and possibly another one of us to conversion. That was saldana's mistake early on when he tried to backtrack and say that he was used to the other games and (temporarily) thought that a vote was certain death.

I don't know where I'm going yet, but UTR is not a strategy that Blade can use. His style is too well known to play that successfully IMO.

[Raiders Army]

eh?

I'm logging off for a little bit. I'll be back around later to see what happens. This has gotten very interesting. :)

[tanglewood]

Here's an idea I just had after catching up. Why not just check Coffee Warlord today to see if he is the seer. If he checks out, then we keep voting for him every day afterward and let him do al the seeing at night. That way we have one confirmed good guy and we could unofficially vote for who to view at night. I am sure that there are some downsides to this idea, namely that that we only get one chance to discover a Thing rather than two, but it would be one confirmed chance as opposed with a guarenteed GG as opposed to one chance, another suspect reported chance and no confirmed GGs. What does everyone else think?

Okay, please ignore this plan, it's a load of crap. I've just some some figuring out with a good ol' piece of paper and pen and the time between finding a thingt and killing it has just too long a turnaround for it to be profitable. The Things would be converting quiker than we could kill them, unless Coffee hit a Thing for 3 or so consecutive nights, which just isn't likely. It looks like we'll have to go back to traditional WW flying by the seat of your pants instinct.

[Raiders Army]

I don't know where I'm going yet, but UTR is not a strategy that Blade can use. His style is too well known to play that successfully IMO.
The post count prior to day 2 was pretty low for him which would've been UTR for him. :)

[tanglewood]

My rather simple question is if Coffee isn't the seer, then why hasn't the real one stepped forward? Open question: Say that you were the seer and someone fake reveals as the seer, how would you play it? Assume that there are multiple seers? Counter-reveal and argue against them? Let it go and come back to it later?

[Swaggs]

I think he's the Seer too. I just think he was converted early (maybe a lucky break by the Things). I know the justification that Coffee said earlier, but I just feel that since Coffee is, IMO, a very, very good player, and this sounds like a good strategy. As it stands right now, most of you feel Coffee is safe. This is one of those games where NO ONE should ever be considered safe. But most of you are defending him. That's a dangerous thing in this game.

So, you can potentially waste a vote on someone else, or eliminate the chance, at least this round, that Coffee isn't playing all of you. That seems not, at least to me, to be a wasted vote. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, but all of you should at least be considering Coffee as a suspect, and if you're not, you should be wondering if you're playing right into the Things' plans.

That's my .02 cents.

I just think it is too big of a risk on his part for it not to be true. He is naming two people as safe with the possibility of being proven (or accused of being) wrong if there is a witness or bodyguard or something. I may be articulating this poorly, but my main point is that once he names names, if he is lying, he is risking a whole lot. It could be a great Thing move, but since he was seemingly under no danger, I just don't see a good reason to make that type of play, other than to keep people from voting for RA and ending our chances.

Anyway, I could be way off, but just my two cents. :)

[path12]

The post count prior to day 2 was pretty low for him which would've been UTR for him. :)

Fair point. But it did bring some suspicion on him, no?

[mckerney]

Unvote Raiders Army
Vote Blade

[path12]

My rather simple question is if Coffee isn't the seer, then why hasn't the real one stepped forward? Open question: Say that you were the seer and someone fake reveals as the seer, how would you play it? Assume that there are multiple seers? Counter-reveal and argue against them? Let it go and come back to it later?

I believe Coffee is the seer. If it's a fake reveal the real seer should have been out there by now (unless it was Qwik and whoever else died, I forget offhand), and it's too risky at this point for him to assume that the real seer would be dead.

Of course, he could get out there first in order to cast doubt on anyone else who tries to counter, but it rings true to me.

[path12]

I could change this, and I'll try and look back and detail later, but he is pingin' the hell out of my Thing radar:

VOTE HOOPS

[hoopsguy]

Just a quick check - post says deadline is Thursday at 9PM EST. Is this accurate? Do we have another full day before the votes are final?

[Swaggs]

I believe Coffee is the seer. If it's a fake reveal the real seer should have been out there by now (unless it was Qwik and whoever else died, I forget offhand), and it's too risky at this point for him to assume that the real seer would be dead.

Of course, he could get out there first in order to cast doubt on anyone else who tries to counter, but it rings true to me.

I also believe that CW is the seer, but there is another alternative to your idea.

The seer could be dead or converted.

[WVUFAN]

The seer could be dead or converted.

This is what I've been saying for the past few hours.

[Swaggs]

This is what I've been saying for the past few hours.

Yes. But what would CW's motivation be for making that claim, while he has no heat on him? He would be calling attention to himself for no good reason, other than to pull the vote away from RA. If the Things feel threatened enough to make that type of play, why would they potentially out both of themselves?

Again, it is possible that CW and RA are Things, but it would have been a pretty risky (potentially game-ending) play for CW to lie about this.

[WVUFAN]

Yes. But what would CW's motivation be for making that claim, while he has no heat on him? He would be calling attention to himself for no good reason, other than to pull the vote away from RA. If the Things feel threatened enough to make that type of play, why would they potentially out both of themselves?

Because by clearing a pure scientist (RA), it "proves" he's not a Thing. Sure, it would be suicide to clear a Thing, but if he clears someone who's isn't a Thing, it validates him and does what it's doing right now -- creates defenders. He doesn't have to prove his innocence -- he's got people who are doing it for him, most of whom are scientists too.


Again, it is possible that CW and RA are Things, but it would have been a pretty risky (potentially game-ending) play for CW to lie about this.

But he isn't lying about RA. In most games, that would make him safe. In this game, it makes him dangerous, because people are assuming he's safe.

[path12]

I also believe that CW is the seer, but there is another alternative to your idea.

The seer could be dead or converted.

That's why I mentioned Quik. It could be that the seer is dead or converted. But they wouldn't necessarily know that so it's still a pretty big risk.

Unless I'm mistaken and if the things convert or kill someone they get knowledge of that person's role?

[st.cronin]

Yes. But what would CW's motivation be for making that claim, while he has no heat on him? He would be calling attention to himself for no good reason, other than to pull the vote away from RA. If the Things feel threatened enough to make that type of play, why would they potentially out both of themselves?

Again, it is possible that CW and RA are Things, but it would have been a pretty risky (potentially game-ending) play for CW to lie about this.

That's my take as well. If, as posited, CW and RA are both Things, it would have been wiser to hold that strategy until AFTER RA was torched - let things play out a little bit more.

[st.cronin]

Because by clearing a pure scientist (RA), it "proves" he's not a Thing. Sure, it would be suicide to clear a Thing, but if he clears someone who's isn't a Thing, it validates him and does what it's doing right now -- creates defenders. He doesn't have to prove his innocence -- he's got people who are doing it for him, most of whom are scientists too.



But he isn't lying about RA. In most games, that would make him safe. In this game, it makes him dangerous, because people are assuming he's safe.

:rolleyes:

The very first thing that was suggested was that we test CW. Before that, there was very little pressure on him. It would be an absolutely savant move to draw attention to yourself when there is none.

[Blade6119]

Ill do what dubb did yesterday since im now basically in the same boat he was yesterday. I placed my vote, i dont intend to swap it, and after this session on the comp im on i will not defend myself anymore. Go ahead and vote for me, im clean and you will waste a day figuring that out. If you have any final questions for me i suggest you ask them in the next little while, becuase after that ill only stop in to see who else raiders can convince

[Blade6119]

Night one convert, raiders...night 2 convert CW...does that make no sense to anyone? Especially if he is the seer and has been converted...it makes sense to me...oh well, have fun apologizing to me tomorrow evening

[hoopsguy]

Blade, I'm making an assumption here that we only have two Things - and remember, one of them was around during the Saldana vote as a Thing.

Do you think they would align themselves this tightly to each other at this stage in the game? If we do end up testing one of them today (and we still have 24 hours of discussion to go) then we have a clear path to the other one and end the game. That does not strike me as optimal strategy for the bad guys.

[Blade6119]

Please do not edit posts. You should know that Blade.
It said not instead of now, which changes the meaning of the post...it wasnt a vote post, and if you guys really believe im changing incrminating evidence then RA has spun his web perfectly. Test me, please...i want to see how RA spins it when i come up clean

[Swaggs]

Night one convert, raiders...night 2 convert CW...does that make no sense to anyone? Especially if he is the seer and has been converted...it makes sense to me...oh well, have fun apologizing to me tomorrow evening

I'm not voting for you, but it does not make sense to me. If I were a Thing, I would not do what CW did by attaching himself to RA in the way that he did.

[hoopsguy]

Votes as of Post #784:

JeeberD - Swaggs (660)
Raiders - Dubb (667), Blade (668)
Blade - Coffee (690), Anxiety (696), JeeberD (707), Raiders (710), Cronin (722), mckerney (771)
Coffee - WVUFAN (741)
Hoops - Path (773)

Not Voted: Barkeep, Hoopsguy, Tanglewood

[WVUFAN]

:rolleyes:

The very first thing that was suggested was that we test CW.

But he wasn't tested, was he? Last round, he wasn't tested either. And I'll betcha anything he won't be tested this or next round either, due to the number of defenders, such as yourself. So, when WILL he be tested?

[Blade6119]

Blade, I'm making an assumption here that we only have two Things - and remember, one of them was around during the Saldana vote as a Thing.

Do you think they would align themselves this tightly to each other at this stage in the game? If we do end up testing one of them today (and we still have 24 hours of discussion to go) then we have a clear path to the other one and end the game. That does not strike me as optimal strategy for the bad guys.
RA was going down until that CW made his move it appeared...now both are out of danger...seems a fair play to me, that if even they delay it today and get a 3rd convert thats a plus. Then tomorrow, its certainly not set RA or CW will be tested..they dont claim to know im a thing...makes all the sense in the world to me..RA was on the block, CW came to his rescue. And if you review voting records RA couldnt afford to swap to barkeep with how close it was and the lack of voting at the end...he wouldnt have had a plausible reason, and then would have been suspect#1..

Anyway buddy, make your decision...you know how my personal life is more busy nowadays(UTR my ass, im still top 3 last time i checked)...if you think im bad, vote me. I wont mind, i know who to look at tomorrow night when we waste a scan

[Schmidty]

It said not instead of now, which changes the meaning of the post...it wasnt a vote post, and if you guys really believe im changing incrminating evidence then RA has spun his web perfectly. Test me, please...i want to see how RA spins it when i come up clean

I wasn't implying anything, as I saw the original post; however, next time just quote yourself and fix it in that post. :)

[Blade6119]

I'm not voting for you, but it does not make sense to me. If I were a Thing, I would not do what CW did by attaching himself to RA in the way that he did.
I would, as he saved him...just like WVU said:But he wasn't tested, was he? Last round, he wasn't tested either. And I'll betcha anything he won't be tested this or next round either, due to the number of defenders, such as yourself. So, when WILL he be tested?
He came out, saved a friend(if they are both things), and i dont see him getting tested anytime soon. When i come up clean somehow the group will manage to find a new suspect, and they will get off. The seeds are already sown, and thing or not i applaude them for their play today

[Blade6119]

I wasn't implying anything, as I saw the original post; however, next time just quote yourself and fix it in that post. :)
roger that, thanks for understanding:)

[hoopsguy]

I'm curious what assumptions people are making at this stage in the game to help dictate their actions. Here are mine:

1.) We started with two Things
2.) Barkeep killed one of them on Night 1 (Qwikshot)
3.) They have converted on each of the first two nights; we are still facing two things (12-2 ratio now)

I haven't yet incorporated Coffee Warlord as a seer into my assumptions, but I'm pretty much in agreement with the skepticism about making this play at this stage in the game. Since I've assumed that Qwikshot was a Thing, he can not have been a seer. So there are no dead scientists. And the real seer would have had the opportunity to refute Coffee. I'm about 90% of the way to making this assumption #4.

[dubb93]

That's my take as well. If, as posited, CW and RA are both Things, it would have been wiser to hold that strategy until AFTER RA was torched - let things play out a little bit more.

I disagree. I believe that RA was the vote today if a "seer" didn't come out. If they are able to get people to buy the fact that CW is a seer this could put the vote for either of them off for days and by that time they would have added 1-2 more converts. Keep in mind that there was a late run on RA yesterday.

As for Blade voting for me yesterday. That is as BS as it can be. He changed his vote late in an attempt to break a tie. If I wasn't outside at the time yesterday the game was probably over with RA's death. Noone that switched around 9 to me should be counted as voting for me. That is slanting it and using it out of context, one of the reasons I called BS earlier. They didn't want to vote me, but couldn't get the numbers to go elsewhere so had to change at the deadline. Inside that group(which CW was one of them) is where you will find last night's convert.

[Coffee Warlord]

But he wasn't tested, was he? Last round, he wasn't tested either. And I'll betcha anything he won't be tested this or next round either, due to the number of defenders, such as yourself. So, when WILL he be tested?

I'll happily offer myself to be tested....after Blade and you.

It has been my experience there's traditionally at least one Bad Guy pushing hard to discredit a major role reveal, along with one person guessing totally wrong.

I do, however, question your Thinghood since you haven't been around. Hence, blade goes first, and we'll see how things sort out tomorrow.

[dubb93]

And the real seer would have had the opportunity to refute Coffee. I'm about 90% of the way to making this assumption #4.

No doubt in my mind CW WAS the seer at one point. I think he was most likely converted b/c out of everyone that tried to save me last night, he has changed his play the most today.

[Coffee Warlord]

Of course, I'm ALWAYS fucking wrong about Blade, but dammit, he's gotta be a wolf one of these times. :)

[Blade6119]

I'll happily offer myself to be tested....after Blade and you.

It has been my experience there's traditionally at least one Bad Guy pushing hard to discredit a major role reveal, along with one person guessing totally wrong.

I do, however, question your Thinghood since you haven't been around. Hence, blade goes first, and we'll see how things sort out tomorrow.
See, just like i said he is positioning himself to not be tested tomorrow...and tomorrow he will find another person to be tested before him...seriously, am i the only one(outside of WVU, who was the last person i expected to be thinking clearly after he must have read through soo much today) who sees this logic? Cronin, do you really find this that delusional?

[dubb93]

I'll happily offer myself to be tested....after Blade and you.

It has been my experience there's traditionally at least one Bad Guy pushing hard to discredit a major role reveal, along with one person guessing totally wrong.

I do, however, question your Thinghood since you haven't been around. Hence, blade goes first, and we'll see how things sort out tomorrow.

Of course you would. The whole point in the reveal was to buy you guys a couple of days so you could build up and blend your numbers.

[hoopsguy]

I think we are a long way from anyone being tested right now. Early vote leaders do not always translate into final vote leaders. So I would encourage you not to emotionally check out just quite yet.

If we don't get a Thing today, and they convert again tonight then we lose the chance to close this out in one day (for the time being). Because they will be up to three and the most we can get at a time is two.

[Blade6119]

And dubby sees what im talking about! Thanks for repaying the trust i put in you yesterday buddy! Your right on with what im thinking

[WVUFAN]

I'll happily offer myself to be tested....after Blade and you.


So, you're cool with being tested -- two rounds from now.

Funny -- both Blade and I are willing to be tested THIS round. Again, if we were Things, would we be so willing to be tested, whereas you've just shown that hesitation we would normally pounce on in most WW games.

[Blade6119]

Dola, Dubb...did you ever see the move "Dreamcatcher?" The hero is a guy named dubby, hence why im calling you it(its a movie about alien invasion in a frozen wilderness that the aliens take over bodies..just like the thing, but crappier)...fyi

[Blade6119]

So, you're cool with being tested -- two rounds from now.

Funny -- both Blade and I are willing to be tested THIS round. Again, if we were Things, would we be so willing to be tested, whereas you've just shown that hesitation we would normally pounce on in most WW games.
Ding Ding, tell him what he has won!

[Raiders Army]

Anyway buddy, make your decision...you know how my personal life is more busy nowadays(UTR my ass, im still top 3 last time i checked)...if you think im bad, vote me. I wont mind, i know who to look at tomorrow night when we waste a scan
Top 3 now...not top 3 back then.

What I'm confused about you is that you seem inordinately preoccupied with me. I did not cast the first vote against you, nor the second. This is all because I said that you were tied for MY #2 choice for being a Thing BASED ON VOTING PATTERNS ONLY. I still think we need to check you out because of your reactions and vaporous arguments today.

[Coffee Warlord]

So, you're cool with being tested -- two rounds from now.

Funny -- both Blade and I are willing to be tested THIS round. Again, if we were Things, would we be so willing to be tested, whereas you've just shown that hesitation we would normally pounce on in most WW games.

I repeat. A big reason I came out today was to avoid everyone piling on someone I scanned clean last night. Why should I offer myself to be scanned today, which wastes the vote today, just like it woulda done had I NOT shown my ass.

[hoopsguy]

This is mostly directed at Blade and Dubb. It is rare that I'm this far off the same page on a game as these guys are so I hope we can talk through this scenario in the next few posts.

Lets try and work through the Raiders/Warlord scenario here logically ...

1. Are you guys working with the assumption, as I am, that Qwikshot was a Thing and was killed on Night 1? If not, then why aren't you going after Barkeep?

[st.cronin]

I was convinced Blade was a bad guy BEFORE his crazy last minute vote fiasco. He's done nothing to convince me otherwise.

[Raiders Army]

So, you're cool with being tested -- two rounds from now.

Funny -- both Blade and I are willing to be tested THIS round. Again, if we were Things, would we be so willing to be tested, whereas you've just shown that hesitation we would normally pounce on in most WW games.
Increasingly I'm throwing you into the camp with Blade. You choose to ignore what is out there and is patently obvious, yet you make strange comments like this knowing that the answer to this has already been posted.

[Blade6119]

Top 3 now...not top 3 back then.

What I'm confused about you is that you seem inordinately preoccupied with me. I did not cast the first vote against you, nor the second. This is all because I said that you were tied for MY #2 choice for being a Thing BASED ON VOTING PATTERNS ONLY. I still think we need to check you out because of your reactions and vaporous arguments today.
You base your argument(which others like anxiety) are following off the fact you state you are a villager and include that in your numbers. I literally lead a charge onto you(a very uncleared person who makes perfect sense for a night one convert) and off a now tested clean villager and suddenly i have a horrid voting record? I stated pre-game i wouldnt be around much the first day(that friday/weekend) but would get back into the groove later...have i not? You have been so out there this whole game, its amazing...im hung up on you becuase you make sense as a thing. Your play makes sense if your a thing. Not some vote that conversions screw over, not your post count.


What more do i have then my gut to go off of?

[st.cronin]

This is mostly directed at Blade and Dubb. It is rare that I'm this far off the same page on a game as these guys are so I hope we can talk through this scenario in the next few posts.

Lets try and work through the Raiders/Warlord scenario here logically ...

1. Are you guys working with the assumption, as I am, that Qwikshot was a Thing and was killed on Night 1? If not, then why aren't you going after Barkeep?

I am neither blade nor dubb but are you asking why is Barkeep not a suspect?

[JeeberD]

Dola, Dubb...did you ever see the move "Dreamcatcher?" The hero is a guy named dubby, hence why im calling you it(its a movie about alien invasion in a frozen wilderness that the aliens take over bodies..just like the thing, but crappier)...fyi

Read the book, the movie was crap.

And it was Duddits, not Dubby... :)

[hoopsguy]

Cronin, re: post #808:

Why would a scientist both trying to move votes from one scientist to another like that? We know that Dubb was clean yesterday based on testing. The Warlord is saying that Raiders was clean last night based on his seer abilities.

[Blade6119]

I was convinced Blade was a bad guy BEFORE his crazy last minute vote fiasco. He's done nothing to convince me otherwise.
The last minute charge off a villager you mean? Yah, thats totally the play a thing would make...:rolleyes:

[Blade6119]

Read the book, the movie was crap.

And it was Duddits, not Dubby... :)
It sounded like dubby in the movie, so dubby he shall be:)

[Swaggs]

Read the book, the movie was crap.

And it was Duddits, not Dubby... :)

I was going to say the same. It was Duddits (Douglas, but he couldn't pronounce that).

The book was crap, too. :)

[Raiders Army]

You base your argument(which others like anxiety) are following off the fact you state you are a villager and include that in your numbers. I literally lead a charge onto you(a very uncleared person who makes perfect sense for a night one convert) and off a now tested clean villager and suddenly i have a horrid voting record? I stated pre-game i wouldnt be around much the first day(that friday/weekend) but would get back into the groove later...have i not? You have been so out there this whole game, its amazing...im hung up on you becuase you make sense as a thing. Your play makes sense if your a thing. Not some vote that conversions screw over, not your post count.


What more do i have then my gut to go off of?
Well, let's get somewhere with this. Do you think you have a horrid voting record?

[Raiders Army]

I was going to say the same. It was Duddits (Douglas, but he couldn't pronounce that).

The book was crap, too. :)
Actually, I thought the movie wasn't too bad until the end.

[JeeberD]

The end of the movie TOTALLY pissed me off. The book wasn't a classic by any means, but it was decent.

[Blade6119]

This is mostly directed at Blade and Dubb. It is rare that I'm this far off the same page on a game as these guys are so I hope we can talk through this scenario in the next few posts.

Lets try and work through the Raiders/Warlord scenario here logically ...

1. Are you guys working with the assumption, as I am, that Qwikshot was a Thing and was killed on Night 1? If not, then why aren't you going after Barkeep?
I make the assumption as far as the things are like this:
Qwikshot(killed night one)
Saldana(killed day 2)
RA(convert night one)
CW(convert night 2)

I assume qwikshot was a thing until i see another night kill happen(possible tonight). If it doesnt happen again, it means it was a one time power, and i assume it belonged to barkeep. Do i trust him, not one bit. If qwik was good, replace him with barkeep on the list. I voted for him and pushed for him on day 2 when others went to saldana, so i obviously dont trust him.

Im working under the conditions it doesnt matter if hes a thing, as if he is you can merely swap him in for qwik on that list.

[Swaggs]

I have got to say that I believe that CW is the seer, but damn if he didn't throw a big old wrench into this game. I was kind of on board with the other "brilliant" folks like myself, but now I am not sure if I trust anyone in this game.

[hoopsguy]

Cronin, I'm just wondering how people are making their decisions. I'm trying to work out how Raiders and Warlord are ganging up on people as Things. Because intuitively I don't see that being a solid long-term play.

I want Blade/Dubb, or whoever wants to advance the argument that this is our two-Thing combination, to build that case. Best case scenario is that we have two Things tying themselves to each other here and that we end the game with back-to-back votes. But at the moment I don't see it ...

[Blade6119]

Well, let's get somewhere with this. Do you think you have a horrid voting record?
Day one i voted for jeeber(the first vote for him, a random vote for my fellow mod)...sucks he turned out bad, but you can hold against me if you want to. Day 2-1 i vote barkeep, who is still very unclear to me...so 1-1 there...day 2-2 i vote you who i think is a thing...so in my mind in sitting on 1 villager, 1 unknown, and 1 thing(technically an unknown to be fair)...i would call that pretty good.

[Swaggs]

Sorry if this has already been asked, but can we run test after test and hold off the night action, as long as we are killing a Thing each time? If so, we could knock things out in a hurry if someone had any good, reliable information.

[JeeberD]

We have a max of two tests at a time, Swaggs...

[st.cronin]

Cronin, re: post #808:

Why would a scientist both trying to move votes from one scientist to another like that? We know that Dubb was clean yesterday based on testing. The Warlord is saying that Raiders was clean last night based on his seer abilities.

Blade, if I understand correctly, moved his vote to break a tie. He may have moved his vote onto somebody he was hoping to convert. Either way, he broke a tie to vote for a villager. Remember, it was between RA and dubb. Dubb tested clean; RA was scanned as clean last night. Either way I don't see how it clears Blade.

One monkey wrench: If RA was converted and scanned last night, would CW know? I don't have any idea.

[hoopsguy]

OK, so on Day 2 we have Saldana and Raiders as the Things. By mid-afternoon Saldana finds himself accumulating votes in a manner that puts him in danger. But Raiders, who has his vote on Saldana, doesn't move it. To the best of my knowledge (going from memory) he didn't log in during the last couple of hours while the only other remaining Thing was being lined up. He then knows he is on his own for the next day, having to avoid a vote so he can attempt to conversion that night. Which, I'm guessing, isn't automatic with bodyguard/blessed/roles unknown.

He barely escapes being the 2nd man voted off (nearly ending the game), goes for his conversion, and chooses Coffee Warlord, who happens to be the seer and is unguarded. They conspire and immediately agree that they have to save Raiders today, rather than just passing the Thing torch on to Warlord to eke out another day like Raiders did at the end of Day 2.

Does this make sense to you? Am I missing some important point in here?

[Blade6119]

Blade, if I understand correctly, moved his vote to break a tie. He may have moved his vote onto somebody he was hoping to convert. Either way, he broke a tie to vote for a villager. Remember, it was between RA and dubb. Dubb tested clean; RA was scanned as clean last night. Either way I don't see how it clears Blade.

One monkey wrench: If RA was converted and scanned last night, would CW know? I don't have any idea.
I broke no tie..my final vote went to RA, the person i voted for all day. CW, your seer, cast the vote that damned dubb to testing:rolleyes:

[Coffee Warlord]

One monkey wrench: If RA was converted and scanned last night, would CW know? I don't have any idea.

No. Which sucks.

However, RA had pretty good odds of being tested today after last night's insanity. Hell, we TRIED to do it last night. I doubt the Things woulda converted him, knowing that.

[WVUFAN]

Question to schmidty: Is there a vote tonight?

[Raiders Army]

Cronin, I'm just wondering how people are making their decisions. I'm trying to work out how Raiders and Warlord are ganging up on people as Things. Because intuitively I don't see that being a solid long-term play.

I want Blade/Dubb, or whoever wants to advance the argument that this is our two-Thing combination, to build that case. Best case scenario is that we have two Things tying themselves to each other here and that we end the game with back-to-back votes. But at the moment I don't see it ...
Perhaps because it isn't possible? As a correction, for the scenario that we are both Things to occur, it would have to mean that there are at least five Things in the game.

7-5 Scientists.
After the voting goes for a Scientist, it would be 6-6 Scientists and the Things win.
Anything less than five Things and this isn't a winning gambit. Let's say it's four Things out there.
8-4 Scientists.
After the voting goes for a Scientists, it would be 7-5 Scientists.
The next day, you take out me and CW. That would make it 7-3 Scientists.

It just doesn't make any sense.

*Disclaimer: This isn't taking into account Barkeep's alleged skill and blessed/bodyguard roles.

[hoopsguy]

Cronin, Blade was definitely looking to build a coalition for someone besides Dubb last night. Again, I'll be happy to go look up posts if someone wants to go that route.

This seems to speak well of him, as Dubb was tested and shown to be a scientist.

That can be your answer for why he would do it, but it draws unnecessary attention if you are a Thing and know that you are already going to advance. Unless he wanted to convert Dubb last night, and thought testing Dubb would get him more leeway today. But I think the exact opposite is true, as the tested guys would seem more likely to draw the bodyguard that evening.

[st.cronin]

Cronin, I'm just wondering how people are making their decisions. I'm trying to work out how Raiders and Warlord are ganging up on people as Things. Because intuitively I don't see that being a solid long-term play.

I want Blade/Dubb, or whoever wants to advance the argument that this is our two-Thing combination, to build that case. Best case scenario is that we have two Things tying themselves to each other here and that we end the game with back-to-back votes. But at the moment I don't see it ...

Me either. It makes no sense whatsoever to me.

[Blade6119]

OK, so on Day 2 we have Saldana and Raiders as the Things. By mid-afternoon Saldana finds himself accumulating votes in a manner that puts him in danger. But Raiders, who has his vote on Saldana, doesn't move it. To the best of my knowledge (going from memory) he didn't log in during the last couple of hours while the only other remaining Thing was being lined up. He then knows he is on his own for the next day, having to avoid a vote so he can attempt to conversion that night. Which, I'm guessing, isn't automatic with bodyguard/blessed/roles unknown.

He barely escapes being the 2nd man voted off (nearly ending the game), goes for his conversion, and chooses Coffee Warlord, who happens to be the seer and is unguarded. They conspire and immediately agree that they have to save Raiders today, rather than just passing the Thing torch on to Warlord to eke out another day like Raiders did at the end of Day 2.

Does this make sense to you? Am I missing some important point in here?
Yes, he wasnt around...and if he had been on the saldana vote there was no viable reason i saw that he could have used to swap if it he wanted to. If he had, he most likely would have hung himself and when that happened saldana as well. This way, they lost just saldana(good move in my mind). He goes after CW, one of the group that led the charge off dubb, a vet, and a fairly trusted person WHO NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BRILLIANT(implying it likely he has a special role)...bodyguard has no idea who to protect and doesnt do CW, CW goes over and they start talking. Day 3 starts immediately i resume my push for RA, and it gains initial momentum. CW steps out claiming seer and clears RA and himself of danger for today, and by the way their playing it tomorrow as well at the minimum. Makes sense to me, as by the time we get around to test them they have 2 more converts(hell, prob. me and a quiet person realistically).

[Blade6119]

Cronin, Blade was definitely looking to build a coalition for someone besides Dubb last night. Again, I'll be happy to go look up posts if someone wants to go that route.

This seems to speak well of him, as Dubb was tested and shown to be a scientist.

That can be your answer for why he would do it, but it draws unnecessary attention if you are a Thing and know that you are already going to advance. Unless he wanted to convert Dubb last night, and thought testing Dubb would get him more leeway today. But I think the exact opposite is true, as the tested guys would seem more likely to draw the bodyguard that evening.
I suspected RA, but when i first tried to get a group i tried to get it to be Jeeber since he already had two votes. Barkeep voted RA and then RA became the target

[Raiders Army]

Day one i voted for jeeber(the first vote for him, a random vote for my fellow mod)...sucks he turned out bad, but you can hold against me if you want to. Day 2-1 i vote barkeep, who is still very unclear to me...so 1-1 there...day 2-2 i vote you who i think is a thing...so in my mind in sitting on 1 villager, 1 unknown, and 1 thing(technically an unknown to be fair)...i would call that pretty good.
In my mind, 2 villagers and 1 unknown.

In everyone else's mind, that's 1 villager and 2 unknowns. That's pretty shitty considering the voting records of everyone else.

You do understand that other than Jeebs, who voted for a villager twice you have the worst voting record?

[Blade6119]

Perhaps because it isn't possible? As a correction, for the scenario that we are both Things to occur, it would have to mean that there are at least five Things in the game.

7-5 Scientists.
After the voting goes for a Scientist, it would be 6-6 Scientists and the Things win.
Anything less than five Things and this isn't a winning gambit. Let's say it's four Things out there.
8-4 Scientists.
After the voting goes for a Scientists, it would be 7-5 Scientists.
The next day, you take out me and CW. That would make it 7-3 Scientists.

It just doesn't make any sense.

*Disclaimer: This isn't taking into account Barkeep's alleged skill and blessed/bodyguard roles.The hell, did you see my list? I think there are 2 things, possibly 3 depending on starting numbers/barkeep's kill.

Where the hell are you getting 5?

[Blade6119]

In my mind, 2 villagers and 1 unknown.

In everyone else's mind, that's 1 villager and 2 unknowns. That's pretty shitty considering the voting records of everyone else.

You do understand that other than Jeebs, who voted for a villager twice you have the worst voting record?
Well, im sure after today when you all vote for me some people will match me. But RA, keep pushing...its just building up more of a case against you when i come up clean

[st.cronin]

Cronin, Blade was definitely looking to build a coalition for someone besides Dubb last night. Again, I'll be happy to go look up posts if someone wants to go that route.

This seems to speak well of him, as Dubb was tested and shown to be a scientist.

That can be your answer for why he would do it, but it draws unnecessary attention if you are a Thing and know that you are already going to advance. Unless he wanted to convert Dubb last night, and thought testing Dubb would get him more leeway today. But I think the exact opposite is true, as the tested guys would seem more likely to draw the bodyguard that evening.

There are a gazillion possible strategies why he would play that way as a Thing. Remember, I voted for him early yesterday - I think he's been bad from the beginning.

Barkeep's story has basically held up: There's been nothing to contradict it. So I think on day 1 there had to have been a Thing in the group voting for him. Going by memory, that's me, anxiety, and blade. That, coupled with blade's general weirdness, is why I like him. It's not just his low post count: It's the style of his posting, which has been totally out of character.

[hoopsguy]

In case it isn't clear, I'm not jumping on the Blade bandwagon just yet. But I also think that it is unlikely that CW and RA are both Things acting in concert.

In terms of last nights conversion, if the Things (well, I'm guessing there was only one of them last night) had an idea that CW was the seer then it makes all the sense in the world to go after him. But I don't think he makes sense as a random target compared to Dubb/JeeberD/Barkeep. Each of those guys has been cleared and/or has indicated a role that makes them unlikely to be blessed.

[Blade6119]

It's not just his low post count:
You do realize i am now the #1 poster in this thread, right? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Raiders Army]

Yes, he wasnt around...and if he had been on the saldana vote there was no viable reason i saw that he could have used to swap if it he wanted to. If he had, he most likely would have hung himself and when that happened saldana as well. This way, they lost just saldana(good move in my mind). He goes after CW, one of the group that led the charge off dubb, a vet, and a fairly trusted person WHO NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BRILLIANT(implying it likely he has a special role)...bodyguard has no idea who to protect and doesnt do CW, CW goes over and they start talking. Day 3 starts immediately i resume my push for RA, and it gains initial momentum. CW steps out claiming seer and clears RA and himself of danger for today, and by the way their playing it tomorrow as well at the minimum. Makes sense to me, as by the time we get around to test them they have 2 more converts(hell, prob. me and a quiet person realistically).
So if it's only two of us, how do we play this out to win??? You should know by playing the wolf before that no one wants to lose. The preference is always to win. When you're dead and your side wins, it's a hollow victory.

[Schmidty]

Question to schmidty: Is there a vote tonight?

If everyone votes before I am either A) too tired to think straight, or B) have gone to bed, then I will try to post the results tonight.

[Blade6119]

So if it's only two of us, how do we play this out to win??? You should know by playing the wolf before that no one wants to lose. The preference is always to win. When you're dead and your side wins, it's a hollow victory.
You keep doing what your doing right now, throwing other players under the bus and not directly stating you know something. Do just enough to get someone else killed and yourself not tested. its the way wolfs win every game

[Blade6119]

5 more minutes, anyone else got a question for me?

[Raiders Army]

The hell, did you see my list? I think there are 2 things, possibly 3 depending on starting numbers/barkeep's kill.

Where the hell are you getting 5?
Dude, I am seriously getting frustrated at your lack of understanding but I guess that's your play right now. Let me spell it out for you in 1st Grade words:

That case is a case where "we" win and that play is an end game.

I tried to use all monosyllabic words so you'll understand.

[Schmidty]

5 more minutes, anyone else got a question for me?

Check again - The deadline is tomorrow night unless everyone votes.

[WVUFAN]

Could someone post a vote count? Who hasn't voted yet?

[st.cronin]

You do realize i am now the #1 poster in this thread, right? :confused: :confused: :confused:

lol

I forget who said you weren't posting much, and you had some excuse why. That wasn't my point at all.

[Blade6119]

Check again - The deadline is tomorrow night unless everyone votes.
5 more minutes until im gone for the night and likely almost all of the day tomorrow. Im tired of defending myself, have said my piece, and am going to let the chips fall how they may

[Schmidty]

5 more minutes until im gone for the night and likely almost all of the day tomorrow. Im tired of defending myself, have said my piece, and am going to let the chips fall how they may

Ah, ok.

[Raiders Army]

You keep doing what your doing right now, throwing other players under the bus and not directly stating you know something. Do just enough to get someone else killed and yourself not tested. its the way wolfs win every game
*clap clap*

Very nice! I like how you worked that into the thread!

[no sarcasm intended]

[Blade6119]

*clap clap*

Very nice! I like how you worked that into the thread!

[no sarcasm intended]
Am i missing the joke? i didnt mean it to be funny, just an expression...have i said it before?

[st.cronin]

Right now I say the Things are Blade + 1 other.

The second Thing could be anybody ... Barkeep or dubb or maybe Jeeber. Or somebody else.

[hoopsguy]

Blade, responding to Post #834:

So RA, who knows that his fellow Thing is in danger and that he could potentially be on the hook during the next actions, lets him hang. If he changes the vote, they go out looking for a conversion that night, have a day to try and argue their case, but they don't run the risk of GAME OVER on Day 2. And, assuming they are successful with their conversion (of CW or whoever they would pick) even if they are doubled up the next day we move on to Day 4 with 1-2 Things (again, depending on a successful night conversion) after we kill both of them.

But here, the Things now change gears. Now they tie themselves to each other when we have 30+ hours to work through the scenarios. If we talk ourselves into testing one of them, the other one is next and it is game over. Wouldn't it make sense to separate, as you suggest that RA and Saldana did on Day 2? Or if they are going to try and play together, why not have Coffee come out with the seer revelation when we have less time to react to it?

Perhaps there were philosophical differences in how Saldana and Warlord looked at the situation? And Raiders went with the flow in both cases? This is a big sticking point for me right now in going down this train of thought.

[Barkeep49]

I have to be honest. I am looking away from CW & Raiders. I think we're better off in a different direction and that is the direction I am heading.

[Qwikshot]

Here we go humans here we go!(clap clap)

[Barkeep49]

Vote count as of this post
[quote]
Blade6119 112
Raiders Army 107
hoopsguy 99
Barkeep49 92
st.cronin 69
Schmidty 56
Coffee Warlord 53
dubb93 48
JeeberD 32
saldana 29
Qwikshot 29
WVUFAN 26
Swaggs 22
tanglewood 21
path12 16
Anxiety 15
mckerney 14
Alan T 3
Desnudo 2
Vince 2
pennywisesb 2
kingfc22 2
ardent enthusiast 1
SackAttack 1
Fouts 1
Lathum 1
SnDvls 1
bulletsponge 1

[Raiders Army]

Somebody might want to check me:

Blade6119 (5): JeeberD, Raiders Army, mckerney, Coffee Warlord, Anxiety
Raiders Army (2): Blade6119, dubb93
hoopsguy (1): path12
tanglewood (1): WVUFan

No votes yet: st. cronin, tanglewood, Swaggs, hoopsguy, Barkeep49

[Barkeep49]

Here we go humans here we go!(clap clap)
I'm glad to see a shitface root for the right team.

[Raiders Army]

Here we go humans here we go!(clap clap)
That's totally not right.

[dubb93]

So if it's only two of us, how do we play this out to win??? You should know by playing the wolf before that no one wants to lose. The preference is always to win. When you're dead and your side wins, it's a hollow victory.

You claim seer/clean and get everyone to buy it. I know all about fake role reveals and I also know when I would pull them as a bad guy. If I was calling the shots as a thing and we converted the seer and I KNEW I was dead that day I would tell him to clear me. No one else can claim to be the seer b/c he would be on my side and it would give me a good chance of extending my life and hoping other things come up so it never gets checked.

[Raiders Army]

Vote count as of this post
[quote]
Blade6119 112
Raiders Army 107
hoopsguy 99
Barkeep49 92
st.cronin 69
Schmidty 56
Coffee Warlord 53
dubb93 48
JeeberD 32
saldana 29
Qwikshot 29
WVUFAN 26
Swaggs 22
tanglewood 21
path12 16
Anxiety 15
mckerney 14
Alan T 3
Desnudo 2
Vince 2
pennywisesb 2
kingfc22 2
ardent enthusiast 1
SackAttack 1
Fouts 1
Lathum 1
SnDvls 1
bulletsponge 1
Post count?

[Blade6119]

Blade, responding to Post #834:

So RA, who knows that his fellow Thing is in danger and that he could potentially be on the hook during the next actions, lets him hang. If he changes the vote, they go out looking for a conversion that night, have a day to try and argue their case, but they don't run the risk of GAME OVER on Day 2. And, assuming they are successful with their conversion (of CW or whoever they would pick) even if they are doubled up the next day we move on to Day 4 with 1-2 Things (again, depending on a successful night conversion) after we kill both of them.

But here, the Things now change gears. Now they tie themselves to each other when we have 30+ hours to work through the scenarios. If we talk ourselves into testing one of them, the other one is next and it is game over. Wouldn't it make sense to separate, as you suggest that RA and Saldana did on Day 2? Or if they are going to try and play together, why not have Coffee come out with the seer revelation when we have less time to react to it?

Perhaps there were philosophical differences in how Saldana and Warlord looked at the situation? And Raiders went with the flow in both cases? This is a big sticking point for me right now in going down this train of thought.
In my mind, they view it as if they use the seer role(which i believe CW was) then they can ride it the rest of the game(or for awhile)...and if one falls 2 days from now, "he must have been converted in the past two nights to frame me!" Safety in numbers hoops, and by doing this they ensure they get at least 1 more, most likely 2-3 before one of them gets tested. Instead of the flip side of losing one today, possibly both if we got lucky without the CW seer reveal, and tomorrow they are back at 2.

RA stated the whole purpose of his, and by my assumption was to win while alive. Dying a wolf then having the wolves win is hollow. The move today, if correct, ensures RA doesnt die today...its the move he as much told you he would make, do what he can do stay alive

[JeeberD]

Vote count as of this post
[


You mean post count, right?

[Qwikshot]

"This is Howard Cosell and I'm getting a piece of Eskimo tail before the Thing gets me..."

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i107/qwikshot1975/howardcosell.jpg

[Blade6119]

You claim seer/clean and get everyone to buy it. I know all about fake role reveals and I also know when I would pull them as a bad guy. If I was calling the shots as a thing and we converted the seer and I KNEW I was dead that day I would tell him to clear me. No one else can claim to be the seer b/c he would be on my side and it would give me a good chance of extending my life and hoping other things come up so it never gets checked.
Hoops, are you reading this?

[Raiders Army]

You claim seer/clean and get everyone to buy it. I know all about fake role reveals and I also know when I would pull them as a bad guy. If I was calling the shots as a thing and we converted the seer and I KNEW I was dead that day I would tell him to clear me. No one else can claim to be the seer b/c he would be on my side and it would give me a good chance of extending my life and hoping other things come up so it never gets checked.
I honestly believe you're misled and I don't think you're a Thing.

What's interesting is that there has been no talk about who might've been converted last night.

I think Jeebs and dubb are the top candidates as well as the people who've flown UTR.

[Blade6119]

What's interesting is that there has been no talk about who might've been converted last night.
You mean like dubb/wvu/and i trumpeting CW? That kind of no discussion? Do you even read our posts?

[dubb93]

I honestly believe you're misled and I don't think you're a Thing.

What's interesting is that there has been no talk about who might've been converted last night.

I think Jeebs and dubb are the top candidates as well as the people who've flown UTR.

Fuckin vote me again, you seem to like to go around in worthless circles.

[Raiders Army]

Well, im sure after today when you all vote for me some people will match me. But RA, keep pushing...its just building up more of a case against you when i come up clean
So you admit your voting record has been horrid, then?

[WVUFAN]

Somebody might want to check me:

Blade6119 (5): JeeberD, Raiders Army, mckerney, Coffee Warlord, Anxiety
Raiders Army (2): Blade6119, dubb93
hoopsguy (1): path12
tanglewood (1): WVUFan

No votes yet: st. cronin, tanglewood, Swaggs, hoopsguy, Barkeep49

I changed my vote to Coffee Warlord.

[Barkeep49]

Yes, I meant post count. Of course I won't edit the post even though I forgot my other quote tag!

[st.cronin]

I voted for Blade early in the cycle. I'll find the post.

[Raiders Army]

You mean like dubb/wvu/and i trumpeting CW? That kind of no discussion? Do you even read our posts?
Conversion of me I can understand. Conversion of CW doesn't make any sense. The way you spin it isn't logical to a normal person. So I discount what you say.

[Qwikshot]

I'm glad to see a shitface root for the right team.

Ouch.

[Blade6119]

So you admit your voting record has been horrid, then?
Not in my mind, but if you make your assumptions about your own innocence then sure. I admit whatever you want. What other meaningless points do you want me to concede, becuase im happy to. Make a list real quick and ill admit to being the 20th hijacker if it makes you happy. Doesnt change what i think of the situation today.

My suspect list:
1.CW
2.RA(RA could be clean and CW, a thing, clears him...dubb did it a few games back, so we spend 2 days killing me or RA, then the other when they come up clear)
3.Barkeep(still dont know about the qwikshot kill, very possible third thing)
4.Dubb(despite his support of me, or maybe inspite of it...a possible convert, and is playing my support to earn my trust which ALAN T proved was oh so easy)

[dubb93]

So you admit your voting record has been horrid, then?

I think too much is put on voting record. When I'm a wolf my voting record is always the best. Why? I throw my vote away on a wolf that isn't in danger of getting voted and I lay back and vote for people that I think have no chance of getting killed so I get the "unknown" factor for me. You also know when exactly to join a bandwagon. If you don't believe it, look back to the HP game, I had the best voting record the whole damn game.

It is easy to have a good voting record as a wolf b/c you know who everyone is and can discuss things with other people. Not so easy when you are by yourself.

[Schmidty]

Here we go humans here we go!(clap clap)

That's fucking garbage dude. Fucking garbage.

[Raiders Army]

Am i missing the joke? i didnt mean it to be funny, just an expression...have i said it before?
Nope, not that I remember. It's just funny hearing that phrase again. I remember hearing it quite a bit with Peyton Manning, etc. I'm too tired to look for the thread, but the phrase was in the title.

[JeeberD]

"This is Howard Cosell and I'm getting a piece of Eskimo tail before the Thing gets me..."
[/IMG]

Since when are there eskimos in Antarctica?


Damn...I'm too drunk to make sense of tonight's discussions. :o

[dubb93]

Conversion of me I can understand. Conversion of CW doesn't make any sense. The way you spin it isn't logical to a normal person. So I discount what you say.

Well, we have to assume there have been 2 conversions. I can see how it would be out of the realm of possibility that you two could have been the converts.:rolleyes:

[st.cronin]

I honestly believe you're misled and I don't think you're a Thing.

What's interesting is that there has been no talk about who might've been converted last night.

I think Jeebs and dubb are the top candidates as well as the people who've flown UTR.

I actually think I have figured out who the convert is, but I'm going to wait until after this vote to bring it on. If Blade comes up clean, it's a wrong guess anyway.


Post 722

That's a terrible idea: We need to catch a thing EVERY day. The value of clearing somebody does not come close to the value of the Things increasing their numbers while we hope the seer sees one.

I was convinced Blade was a Thing YESTERDAY, and I remain convinced:

VOTE BLADE

[hoopsguy]

Yeah, I am. I'm still not sure why you would use the reveal with so much time left to dissect it, but I can at least subscribe to the newsletter.

I still think the play is inconsistent from day 2 to day 3 (and sub-optimal) but I can see the path you and Dubb are heading down.

[JeeberD]

That's fucking garbage dude. Fucking garbage.


Soooo...did Schmidty just let us know that Qwik was human?

[Blade6119]

Soooo...did Schmidty just let us know that Qwik was human?
If anything he let us know he was a thing, but we cant take his comments to mean a thing, pretend it didnt happen

[hoopsguy]

Here is what I have for votes, don't think there have been any in awhile:

JeeberD - Swaggs (660)
Raiders - Dubb (667), Blade (668)
Blade - Coffee (690), Anxiety (696), JeeberD (707), Raiders (710), Cronin (722), mckerney (771)
Coffee - WVUFAN (741)
Hoops - Path (773)

Not Voted: Barkeep, Hoopsguy, Tanglewood

[Schmidty]

Soooo...did Schmidty just let us know that Qwik was human?

Actually no I didn't. It was regarding the fact that he was making a comment that could affect the game after he's dead.

I AM FUCKING PISSED.

[st.cronin]

I think too much is put on voting record. When I'm a wolf my voting record is always the best. Why? I throw my vote away on a wolf that isn't in danger of getting voted and I lay back and vote for people that I think have no chance of getting killed so I get the "unknown" factor for me. You also know when exactly to join a bandwagon. If you don't believe it, look back to the HP game, I had the best voting record the whole damn game.

It is easy to have a good voting record as a wolf b/c you know who everyone is and can discuss things with other people. Not so easy when you are by yourself.

The last two games I played voting record pointed straight to every single wolf. So, I disagree with your assesment.

[Coffee Warlord]

Hey hoops. Not that I'm going to change my vote unless something drastic happens, but why path?

[Raiders Army]

Not in my mind, but if you make your assumptions about your own innocence then sure. I admit whatever you want. What other meaningless points do you want me to concede, becuase im happy to.
I'm glad that you finally conceded that you have a bad voting record. In that case, I would refer you to what set you off:

Post #665Okay. I'm gonna have to go with a silent conversion here. Damn.

Based on voting patterns, these are my prime suspects at this point:

1. JeeberD, voted twice for a known scientist (Day 2 both votes)
2a and b. Coffee Warlord and Blade 6119, voted for a known scientist (Day 2 2nd vote)

None of the above voted for saldana on day 2.

Next tier is:

4. tanglewood, voted for a known scientist and not sure if his vote counted towards saldana since it was late (at that point, it didn't matter)
5a,b, & c. mckerney, hoopsguy, and Barkeep49, voted for scientists and for saldana

Unknowns: st. cronin, Swaggs, Anxiety, WVUFan. From their votes, we don't know what they voted for.

Possible good guy: path12, voted for saldana, didn't vote for a known scientist
So you flew off the handle on a post that said you had a bad voting record, which you admit. Thanks. I can go to sleep now.

[dubb93]

The last two games I played voting record pointed straight to every single wolf. So, I disagree with your assesment.

They weren't playing the role right.

[JeeberD]

Hey hoops. Not that I'm going to change my vote unless something drastic happens, but why path?


path voted for hoops, not the other way around.

Way to go, Daivd... :rolleyes:

;)

[Coffee Warlord]

path voted for hoops, not the other way around.

Way to go, Daivd... :rolleyes:

;)

Don't MAKE me launch tactical yaks at you.

[Blade6119]

Yeah, I am. I'm still not sure why you would use the reveal with so much time left to dissect it, but I can at least subscribe to the newsletter.

I still think the play is inconsistent from day 2 to day 3 (and sub-optimal) but I can see the path you and Dubb are heading down.
Do whatever you think is smart. I have no allies, no nothing of dubb and WVU, and am solely working on my gut here. Sometimes its right, sometimes its wrong(i never though saldana was a thing..hell, im usually wrong)...but as a simple villager with no bonus knowledge, i can only go off my gut. And as a wolf i would have done everything i think RA has done(including converting RA if im saldana)...and if i converted the seer but was a dead man id beg him to clear me...id make all the same plays, so i vote this way. Might be better to vote CW in case he is pulling one like dubb did a few games back. So as i leave

UNVOTE RAIDERS
VOTE COFFEE

[hoopsguy]

Is this the first Maximum Football reference in a werewolf game?

[dubb93]

They weren't playing the role right.

And if you must know, that is the reason I was voting for hoops earlier. He does play the role right and it was risk/reward. I thought everyone would catch on to saldana, but I wanted to show that hoops was the biggest threat. I thought i caught him, which I've changed my mind on that now, and if I did catch him, he knows how to play the role.

[Blade6119]

I'm glad that you finally conceded that you have a bad voting record. In that case, I would refer you to what set you off:

Post #665
So you flew off the handle on a post that said you had a bad voting record, which you admit. Thanks. I can go to sleep now.
LOL, i cant believe you just made that jump...wow, just wow...that post is wrong by official standards...you are soo agitating..just wow, sleep tight you crazy SOB:p

[st.cronin]

They weren't playing the role right.

Well, in at least one of those games, they did win ... anyway, I think in this game voting record is less useful than normal, but because of that, and because in werewolf the bad play is sometimes the good play, and because there's not much else to go on, I place a lot of importance on it.

That probably didn't make any sense. Suffice that it's what I use and the last few games it's served me well.

[Blade6119]

Well, in at least one of those games, they did win ... anyway, I think in this game voting record is less useful than normal, but because of that, and because in werewolf the bad play is sometimes the good play, and because there's not much else to go on, I place a lot of importance on it.

That probably didn't make any sense. Suffice that it's what I use and the last few games it's served me well.
Cronin, i like you..i do...so dont misconstrue all of the crap i give you after you guys test me...ok? :)

[Blade6119]

Dola, and hoops...you say it doesnt make sense to reveal the seer thing as a wolf at that time...does it make sense if he is a villager?

[Raiders Army]

I think too much is put on voting record. When I'm a wolf my voting record is always the best. Why? I throw my vote away on a wolf that isn't in danger of getting voted and I lay back and vote for people that I think have no chance of getting killed so I get the "unknown" factor for me. You also know when exactly to join a bandwagon. If you don't believe it, look back to the HP game, I had the best voting record the whole damn game.

It is easy to have a good voting record as a wolf b/c you know who everyone is and can discuss things with other people. Not so easy when you are by yourself.
I agree with you completely. I had a horrible voting record many games and that was what killed me. For the seventh time, I posted that message based on voting records according to me...nothing else. It was other people who spun it out there. hoops asked for an analysis of voting records previously and I did it. Of course, I'm going to put my two cents in because I know I'm a scientist and I'll put that information out there.

I didn't put too much stock into it, but I also was going to keep it in the back of my mind. When you and Blade overreacted to it that was all you. Blade kept coming back to it and attacking it, so I felt as if he had something to hide. Remember that I didn't vote for him right away even after he was arguing.

Also, you never said why you felt as if that analysis was flawed. Why, and why did you feel as if it was flawed?

[st.cronin]

Cronin, i like you..i do...so dont misconstrue all of the crap i give you after you guys test me...ok? :)

Do you know how I know you're gay? Because your dick tastes like shit.

I never take anything in this game personal. Nobody should, because Steve Yzerman = overrated.

[hoopsguy]

FWIW, I try to play the villager (in this case scientist) role well also. We'll see after today ...

As it stands right now, if there is not any vote switching between now and when Barkeep, Tanglewood, and I vote Blade is going to be tested. He has six votes and no one else has more than two.

[Raiders Army]

LOL, i cant believe you just made that jump...wow, just wow...that post is wrong by official standards...you are soo agitating..just wow, sleep tight you crazy SOB:p
You stated that you had a bad voting record, did you not? I stated that previously and that's what set you off. Everything you've said today has been just words and no substance. You haven't proven anything; your strategy of waving your arms and posting little of consequence has done you well tonight. Good job. ;)

[st.cronin]

FWIW, I try to play the villager (in this case scientist) role well also. We'll see after today ...

As it stands right now, if there is not any vote switching between now and when Barkeep, Tanglewood, and I vote Blade is going to be tested. He has six votes and no one else has more than two.

Have those two been on? Because, if Blade does turn up bad (or if RA or CW end up being tested and pass), putting off your vote will bring a suspicious eye on you - let's get this shit over with.

[Schmidty]

I never take anything in this game personal. Nobody should, because Steve Yzerman = overrated.

Out of nowhere, a bolt of lightning flashes, and st. cronin is turned into a smoldering pile of carbon.

[Raiders Army]

I sort of don't want to go to sleep since there's a lot of action, but work calls early tomorrow morning. Take care guys and thanks for an entertaining night!

[Swaggs]

This is a pretty intense game. I haven't seen people lose their composure this badly in a long time. :)

[Blade6119]

You stated that you had a bad voting record, did you not? I stated that previously and that's what set you off. Everything you've said today has been just words and no substance. You haven't proven anything; your strategy of waving your arms and posting little of consequence has done you well tonight. Good job. ;)
See, its nice to be able to argue with someone and still be friends...usually everyone i go after suddenly hates me...thanks for keeping WW fun Raiders, as ive had more fun the past two-three days then ive had in quite a few games. Thanks to everyone actually(except cronin...grrrrr ;))

[hoopsguy]

I think a seer reveal today makes sense if you believe we are going down the wrong path. If there are only two Things then we have a chance to win outright today and we won't have one tomorrow.

As far as the timing on it, I'm not sure it is as important when you are telling the truth versus when you are lying. Normally you don't want to give yourself too much time to get stuck in a lie.

Maybe I'm partial to this reveal because he scanned me on Night 1, but I did note his post early in Day 2 saying he thought I was a scientist this game. He only wavered when I had him (along with Saldana) on my top two targets for that day; ironically enough, because I believe that Raiders was unlikely to be a Thing at that time.

[Blade6119]

Hey schmidty, no one is going to swap off of me, and there is no way for me not to be tested...can we just do this shit so we can get on with the game? I want to see cronin's reaction oh soo badly

[dubb93]

Also, you never said why you felt as if that analysis was flawed. Why, and why did you feel as if it was flawed?

B/C if anyday in werewolf history needed about a full page of analysis besides he voted this way it was yesterday. People wanted to vote you but couldn't get the numbers, and keep in mind a tie means no test. It was better to vote me and clear me than get no test. You just can't simply say this guy voted dubb who is clean, that is only the case of the original 4, yourself included. Blade was among the group that tried to get numbers to test you and couldn't so had to try and break the tie. Your "analysis" didn't allow for that train of thought and is something a wolf would do to slant things the way they want them slanted.

[Blade6119]

I think a seer reveal today makes sense if you believe we are going down the wrong path. If there are only two Things then we have a chance to win outright today and we won't have one tomorrow.

As far as the timing on it, I'm not sure it is as important when you are telling the truth versus when you are lying. Normally you don't want to give yourself too much time to get stuck in a lie.

Maybe I'm partial to this reveal because he scanned me on Night 1, but I did note his post early in Day 2 saying he thought I was a scientist this game. He only wavered when I had him (along with Saldana) on my top two targets for that day; ironically enough, because I believe that Raiders was unlikely to be a Thing at that time.
See, but those hints you picked up, barkeep mentioned as well...you dont find it at all likely a thing(possibly even barkeep) picked up on them as well and converted him that night(when i think he was)...it adds up to me, and im saying all this so tomorrow we have a direction to go forth with

[hoopsguy]

Cronin, where I'm stuck right now is that if I'm going somewhere besides Blade then that leads me towards Coffee/Raiders. And I was pretty close to talking myself into Warlord as the seer before we went down this extended path.

But if I want to put a vote somewhere besides those three players it is basically a wasted vote. So I'm wondering if I just take a shot at one of the leading vote getters or "waste" a vote where I don't have proof.

If the other guys were around I would definitely vote so as to avoid holding up the game. I've seen Barkeep in the thread, but not Tanglewood and neither of them are here as I'm posting.

[path12]

I'll happily offer myself to be tested....after Blade and you.

I've gotta go cook dinner and still have three pages to go through, but I cannot let this pass without saying that it is the Thingiest quote I've seen this entire game. It just reeks of badness.

UNVOTE HOOPS

Back later.

[Schmidty]

This is a pretty intense game. I haven't seen people lose their composure this badly in a long time. :)

Even games I run get under people's skin. ;)

[Schmidty]

Hey schmidty, no one is going to swap off of me, and there is no way for me not to be tested...can we just do this shit so we can get on with the game? I want to see cronin's reaction oh soo badly

No. Everyone should have the opportunity to vote, since voting patterns can affect the outcome of the game.

[Blade6119]

If this is like clue, id like to solve the mystery:

In the kennel, with a knife, barkeep was the killer. RA and CW helped hide the murder weapon.

Can i do that schmidty?

[hoopsguy]

For right now, I'm going to go against the grain and
VOTE TANGLEWOOD

The Things were down to one guy yesterday. If that was me I would vote for the most quiet guy I could find. I'm discounting WVUFAN because it looked like he was going to be out of the game.

It is damn hard to create linkage to the most quiet players in the game, which reduces the likelihood of a two-Thing, game over scenario. I think he makes more sense as a Night 2 conversion than a Night 1 conversion given the thought process above. And I think it should be easier to get the people who have been playing as Things the longest, but I'm really not sure who the first conversion would have been if Saldana and Qwikshot were the starters.

[dubb93]

Again, I have no problem with the concept that CW was the seer, but I believe that either Blade, CW, Hoops, or Barkeep, or myself were converted last night. Of those CW has played today the most different and we have to believe the things are down to 2 and if RA is a thing he would have been the bandwagon today. That would have cut them to 1. If CW was the convert most likely it buys both of them a couple of days, and if one of them is killed they can always claim, "He was converted after the scan" or, "He was converted after the reveal."

What makes me not believe the reveal even further is the way it is revealed....

Sigh. Alright. I'm not going to let us waste a day on RA.

Make this real simple. Unless he was converted last night, which I doubt due to the pressure on him, RA is a scientist.

Why? I'm the seer. Or in this game, Geneticist.

Scans to date:

Day 1: Hoops (Clean)
Day 2: RA (Clean)

(No, didn't get a Night 0 scan)

Now. The Things can try and convert me if they wish, but they aren't gonna get a lot of mileage out of me, since I'm now common knowledge. I'll be posting my scan results every day. Convert me if you want, but the first time the Things try and use me to false scan someone, the secret will be out.

Also, if converted, if the Things decide to sacrifice one of their own to keep me "safe", I ask that you immediately vote me as the 2nd vote of the night.

'Course, it'd be better if I get bodyguarded.

So if he is converted he is going to rat on them? Bullshit, sugar coat it a little more to make people buy it.

Also, later in the day he says with 100% knowledge that he wouldn't know if RA was converted last night. BS, I doubt Schmidty would tell you, or even allow a seer role where you could scan someone on night 2 and them be a thing on day 3 and you not know it. Again, he is trying to position himself incase the bandwagon slips to RA.

[hoopsguy]

I'll re-post my vote so it is at the bottom of my post, making it easier for someone to find later (if needed):

VOTE TANGLEWOOD

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by st.cronin
One monkey wrench: If RA was converted and scanned last night, would CW know? I don't have any idea.

No. Which sucks.

However, RA had pretty good odds of being tested today after last night's insanity. Hell, we TRIED to do it last night. I doubt the Things woulda converted him, knowing that.
.

[dubb93]

I seriously don't buy it, how much sugar coating and positioning can you do with a simple seer reveal?

[Blade6119]

For right now, I'm going to go against the grain and
VOTE TANGLEWOOD

The Things were down to one guy yesterday. If that was me I would vote for the most quiet guy I could find. I'm discounting WVUFAN because it looked like he was going to be out of the game.

It is damn hard to create linkage to the most quiet players in the game, which reduces the likelihood of a two-Thing, game over scenario. I think he makes more sense as a Night 2 conversion than a Night 1 conversion given the thought process above. And I think it should be easier to get the people who have been playing as Things the longest, but I'm really not sure who the first conversion would have been if Saldana and Qwikshot were the starters.
I dont get that...in my mind we might have started with saldana/qwikshot(possibly barkeep). Night one they convert RA for all the same reason i converted you in X-com(so far has had the exact same results too). Night two, RA is either alone or with barkeep, and they pick up on CW's seer hints and convert him. Why convert tangle when he is never around to help them. RA made it clear he doesnt consider death then team victory a victory. Tangle would be the best choice for team victory, not for solo. It all makes sense to me, and i implore you to think long and hard about your direction you take after the test clears me.

And with that, i bid you all adeiu...sweet dreams you finger cutting pricks ;)

[dubb93]

I'm willing to vote either RA or Coffee if we can get the numbers to do so.

[Blade6119]

I'm willing to vote either RA or Coffee if we can get the numbers to do so.
I dont think its going to matter...its 2 on CW, 1 on RA(you), and 6 on me...it would take another swing like the one to save you, which frankly i dont think key members of that swap would be willing to do based on the fact i have accused 2/5 of that group today. Just vote however and enjoy wondering which of you, myself, or WVU will get converted tonight to continue getting players on both sides of the puzzle

[Blade6119]

And barkeep has now been in and out of thread at least 4 times without posting...i seriously might be paranoid about him, but what else is new.

[Blade6119]

Cheers dubby, thanks for trying to help

[Swaggs]

I'm willing to vote either RA or Coffee if we can get the numbers to do so.

Against my better judgement probably, I am willing to go with CW. I am thinking that, if he is telling the truth, it will clear the people he viewed and him (since, although it would be possible, it would be pretty improbable that the Things would have converted the same people he viewed). And hopefully, if there is a bodyguard around, he can protect CW tonight and allow us even another reveal. If CW is a thing, he dies and we nail RA immediately afterwards and hopefully win.

I still think that JeeberD makes sense from the Things perspective, but voting for him is just a stab in the dark and does not really resolve anything, I guess. I hate changing my vote in these games, but will give it a shot.

Unvote JeeberD

Vote Coffee Warlord

[dubb93]

UNVOTE RAIDERS ARMY

VOTE COFFEE WARLORD

[path12]

Cheers dubby, thanks for trying to help

Votes at 7 tomorrow, right? Not tonight? There's still some votes out there, I know I plan to look at CW/RA posts closely when I get a chance a bit later.

[Coffee Warlord]

I dont get that...in my mind we might have started with saldana/qwikshot(possibly barkeep). Night one they convert RA for all the same reason i converted you in X-com(so far has had the exact same results too). Night two, RA is either alone or with barkeep, and they pick up on CW's seer hints and convert him. Why convert tangle when he is never around to help them. RA made it clear he doesnt consider death then team victory a victory. Tangle would be the best choice for team victory, not for solo. It all makes sense to me, and i implore you to think long and hard about your direction you take after the test clears me.

And with that, i bid you all adeiu...sweet dreams you finger cutting pricks ;)

Speaking of X-Com, remember the last game I came out with an honest role reveal? Got my ass killed, and surprise surprise, I was telling the truth.

Several people went to great lengths to discredit me when I did that in X-Com. Same deal happening here. Out of that mess, as I remember, Qwikshot suspected me, but was human, and 2 aliens joined in the attack.

I see the same happening here, with Blade, WVU, and Dubb. One of those three is a Thing, possibly two.

[JeeberD]

I'm getting the feeling that dubb got converted last night after after the Things saw that I didn't get a second vote...

[Coffee Warlord]

I see the same happening here, with Blade, WVU, and Dubb. One of those three is a Thing, possibly two.

And I'm starting to suspect Blade is the misguided villager, I might add.

[hoopsguy]

1.) I don't accept that they could have had three Things to start with plus nightly conversions.
2.) If Barkeep was a Thing, then they killed Qwikshot that night instead of converting
3.) If Barkeep was a Thing, and he picked up on hints from CW, and converted him, then why post about it today?

I can agree with you on Raiders not picking Tanglewood if he wants the individual victory. I just haven't convinced myself that Raiders was the Night 1 conversion. Remember, from my assumption list I believe that Qwikshot and Saldana started the game as the only two Things.

That is what I'm trying to work through here - who was the Night one conversion? We know it wasn't Dubb. I know it wasn't me. I haven't thought it was you (Blade) but I'm not agonizing over you being scanned tomorrow if voting patterns hold up. Barkeep? Warlord? Cronin? Jeebs?

I wish I knew who the bodyguard protected last night. Note that this is not to be construed in any way, shape, or form as a request for a role reveal. But as I'm working through scenarios the nightly conversion thing is kicking me in the butt.

[st.cronin]

And I'm starting to suspect Blade is the misguided villager, I might add.

Blade is a formidable player. I suspected this would happen if the vote dragged on. He'll find a way not to get tested ... it's perfectly obvious to me that he's a Thing. The other thing is somebody who hasn't voted for him yet, I'm sure of it.

[Coffee Warlord]

Blade is a formidable player. I suspected this would happen if the vote dragged on. He'll find a way not to get tested ... it's perfectly obvious to me that he's a Thing. The other thing is somebody who hasn't voted for him yet, I'm sure of it.

Agreed. But, how many times have I/we thought Blade was a bad guy with the way he plays, and how many times have we fucked up?

But, point very well taken.

[dubb93]

Speaking of X-Com, remember the last game I came out with an honest role reveal? Got my ass killed, and surprise surprise, I was telling the truth.

Several people went to great lengths to discredit me when I did that in X-Com. Same deal happening here. Out of that mess, as I remember, Qwikshot suspected me, but was human, and 2 aliens joined in the attack.

I see the same happening here, with Blade, WVU, and Dubb. One of those three is a Thing, possibly two.

An honest reveal would be...

"I AM THE SEER, I SCANNED HOOPS AND RAIDERS, HOOPS COULD HAVE BEEN CONVERTED BUT RAIDERS IS CLEAN."

Now I'll wrap your entire reveal up in a nice clean sweep...

"I AM THE SEER, I SURE HOPE THERE IS MORE, I SCANNED HOOPS AND RAIDERS BUT EITHER OF THEM COULD BE THINGS NOW. SO WHY AM I POSTING THIS? B/C IT IS UNLIKELY THAT RA WAS TURNED LAST NIGHT, AND EVEN THOUGH I DID SCAN HIM LAST NIGHT THERE IS STILL A CHANCE HE COULD HAVE BEEN TURNED. AND I KNOW THAT FOR A FACT. ALSO, EVEN AFTER I GET CONVERTED I WILL CONTINUE TO GIVE MY SCAN RESULTS AND IF I HAPPEN TO HIT A THING I WILL TELL YOU GUYS THAT I HIT A THING AND THAT I AM A THING ALSO"

Worst role reveal ever.

[dubb93]

And I made none of that up, check his posts for the day and the posts I quoted. It is all there.

[Coffee Warlord]

An honest reveal would be...

blah blah blah

Worst role reveal ever.

I feel it necessary to, gasp, inform people of the entire situation. The seer role is REALLY DAMN WEAK this game, and people need to understand that.

And you've been converted.

[dubb93]

I feel it necessary to, gasp, inform people of the entire situation. The seer role is REALLY DAMN WEAK this game, and people need to understand that.

And you've been converted.

Well you wouldn't know. B/C even if I was tested yesterday and you used your lame ass powers on me to clear me during the night I COULD STILL BE A FUCKIN THING!?!?!?!? I don't buy it.

[hoopsguy]

Here is the Barkeep scenario, which I have dismissed:

Day 0: 14-2 ratio, things are Saldana and Barkeep
Day 1: Jeebs cleared (14-2)
Night 1: Things kill scientist Qwikshot (13-2)
Day 2: Saldana/Thing killed (13-1)
Day 2 (again): Dubb cleared (13-1)
Night 2: Barkeep converts ???

I'll revisit this scenario if there is another death tomorrow night. But if not, this scenario stays on the cutting room floor for me.

If Barkeep is a Thing, I think it is impossible for both Raiders and Coffee to be Things. Too many deaths/conversions to map out without starting with three Things. Which, I still maintain, would not be a competitive game.

[Coffee Warlord]

Well you wouldn't know. B/C even if I was tested yesterday and you used your lame ass powers on me to clear me during the night I COULD STILL BE A FUCKIN THING!?!?!?!? I don't buy it.

Take a wild guess how I know that my view occurs before a conversion. I fucking asked.

Unfortunately, Schmidity can't comment on it either way now, because it's a point brought up in the game.

(Insert the "How Convenient For You" line here)

[hoopsguy]

Updated votes, as of Post #943:

Blade - Coffee (690), Anxiety (696), JeeberD (707), Raiders (710), Cronin (722), mckerney (771)
Coffee - WVUFAN (741), Blade (895), Swaggs (930), Dubb (931)
Tanglewood - Hoopsguy (922)

Not Voted: Barkeep, Path, Tanglewood



I'm finding it very hard to look away from this game right now and do the mountain of work I brought home this evening.

[Coffee Warlord]

By the by.

Unvote Blade

Vote Dubb

I'm more convinced he's a Thing than Blade is.

[dubb93]

Take a wild guess how I know that my view occurs before a conversion. I fucking asked.

Unfortunately, Schmidity can't comment on it either way now, because it's a point brought up in the game.

(Insert the "How Convenient For You" line here)

I've always known people running the game to give inside information that could effect the outcome of the game to certain players and not the whole group. :rolleyes: How convenient for you make up another rule where schmidty can't clarify if he gave you inside information.

[dubb93]

And by the way coffee, I have doubt in my mind that you were the seer, no one has come forward. It just I think I know the group of 5 where the conversion came from last night and you happen to fall in it. And coming out today in the manner in which you did doesn't help you. You want me to believe you would rat out the things if they convert you?

[dubb93]

I have NO doubt

[Coffee Warlord]

And by the way coffee, I have doubt in my mind that you were the seer, no one has come forward. It just I think I know the group of 5 where the conversion came from last night and you happen to fall in it. And coming out today in the manner in which you did doesn't help you. You want me to believe you would rat out the things if they convert you?

No, at this point, I don't want you to believe shit. I'm convinced you've been converted.

For the gallery, however.

I was trying to come up with ways to prevent me from being trusted if I AM converted after tonight. Obviously if I become a Thing, I'm going to play for the Things. It's totally against the spirit of WW any other way.

Right now, however, I'm a scientist. Thusly, I'm trying to create a scenario where, if I'm converted, there will be as little way as possible for my now public role to be used. If anyone has any better idea on how to accomplish that, I'm open to suggestions.

[st.cronin]

Here is the Barkeep scenario, which I have dismissed:

Day 0: 14-2 ratio, things are Saldana and Barkeep
Day 1: Jeebs cleared (14-2)
Night 1: Things kill scientist Qwikshot (13-2)
Day 2: Saldana/Thing killed (13-1)
Day 2 (again): Dubb cleared (13-1)
Night 2: Barkeep converts ???

I'll revisit this scenario if there is another death tomorrow night. But if not, this scenario stays on the cutting room floor for me.

If Barkeep is a Thing, I think it is impossible for both Raiders and Coffee to be Things. Too many deaths/conversions to map out without starting with three Things. Which, I still maintain, would not be a competitive game.

hoopsguy = in circle of trust

dubb = out of circle of trust

Of course, if Blade tests clean, we reverse those.

[JeeberD]

By the by.

Unvote Blade

Vote Dubb

I'm more convinced he's a Thing than Blade is.

I SOOO agree with this right now, but if I take my vote off Blade it will create a tie. Of corse, we have another 23 hours until the vote is final...

unvote blade

Vioe dubb

[dubb93]

vote me please, test me again, hell, test me the rest of the game, show how easily fooled you guys are. I love big circles. I would love for the bodyguard to reveal who he protected last night as long as it is either blade/hoops/dubb/coffee/barkeep, those are the 5 where I think the conversion came from. Seeing as how blade is thinking like me I'm confident it wasn't him, but coffee is pouring on the sugar coating like no other. Now I'll wait for RA to reveal he is the bodyguard....

[st.cronin]

I SOOO agree with this right now, but if I take my vote off Blade it will create a tie. Of corse, we have another 23 hours until the vote is final...

unvote blade

Vioe dubb

get me duckman, I need his smiley

[JeeberD]

get me duckman, I need his smiley

Ich verstest du nicht!

[dubb93]

Right now, however, I'm a scientist.

I thought you were a geneticist

[st.cronin]

Ich verstest du nicht!

I'm sorry, I don't speak moron.

[Coffee Warlord]

I thought you were a geneticist

No, I'm a giant hamster.

Come ON.

[dubb93]

No, I'm a giant hamster.

Come ON.

I KNEW IT!

[JeeberD]

Not a yak?

Vote C...

Nevermind.

[Coffee Warlord]

That's it. You and me, at the bike racks. 3pm. :)

Off to watch the Cubbies.

[hoopsguy]

If RA reveals he is the bodyguard my vote instantly goes to him. No further questions asked.

[dubb93]

If RA reveals he is the bodyguard my vote instantly goes to him. No further questions asked.

I think you should make your vote count one way or the other. You yourself said that it almost has to be either blade/??? or RA/coffee and you can't see it being any other way.

[WVUFAN]

No, I'm a giant hamster.

Come ON.

Is it a minature giant space hamster?

[hoopsguy]

Dubb, I agree. When I posted the vote the only way to make my vote count was to vote Blade and I wasn't leaning that direction. Plus I still thought we could have the vote processed tonight if all votes were in.

But with the deadline set for tomorrow night I'll almost certainly be looking to move the vote off Tanglewood.

[JeeberD]

Off to watch the Cubbies.

Cubbies fookin blow.

[hoopsguy]

Damn it Jeebs, I've already said I'm planning to switch my vote. Don't push me :mad::eek::D

[Coffee Warlord]

Cubbies fookin blow.

I am SO drowning you in giant hamster shit.

[JeeberD]

http://img25.echo.cx/img25/5546/sc0877dq.gif

Love both of ya guys....

[Abe Sargent]

I got back after a couple of hours of gaming and there are over FIVE FREAKIN PAGES of posts to get caught up on.

I think it's high time that you guys admit that you simpyl have no F'in clue as to what's going on. This version is dissimilar enough to previous iterations that you are about as informed as my newbie ass is.

You keep building assumptions on assumptions on assumptions and pretty soon, it's obviously a house of assumptions, and if just one is wrong, the whole thing collapses.

You are not going to figure out thing-hood by writing five pages in two hours. Blade talks too much, that makes him more suspect in my book. I'm keeping my vote on him. No assumptions, no wierd-ass interpretations of normal speech, no absolute dissection and parsing of every single word someone says. Just a simple observation.

You talk too much, Blade. Stop. Listen more.

-Anxiety

[WVUFAN]

II think it's high time that you guys admit that you simpyl have no F'in clue as to what's going on. This version is dissimilar enough to previous iterations that you are about as informed as my newbie ass is.

You keep building assumptions on assumptions on assumptions and pretty soon, it's obviously a house of assumptions, and if just one is wrong, the whole thing collapses.

There's two things I've learned from WW --

1: the entire game is mostly filled by assumptions.
2: Sometimes, yes, being quiet is for the best (my first WW game as an example I was told by my wolf partners to stay quiet, and we won because NO ONE even remotely considered me as a Wolf -- I don't think I got a single vote the whole game), but for the most part, being quiet = suspicion.

[Barkeep49]

Anxiety I have to say that I'm feeling pretty good about how I've done this game. I don't have a vote yet out because there's much I need to review, but I don't buy that we're floundering in a sea of cum in the least.

[st.cronin]

Anxiety I have to say that I'm feeling pretty good about how I've done this game. I don't have a vote yet out because there's much I need to review, but I don't buy that we're floundering in a sea of cum in the least.

how poetic

[Barkeep49]

how poetic
I do limmericks as well:

There once was a man from Nantuckett...

[st.cronin]

bom bom diggy

[Blade6119]

I got back after a couple of hours of gaming and there are over FIVE FREAKIN PAGES of posts to get caught up on.

I think it's high time that you guys admit that you simpyl have no F'in clue as to what's going on. This version is dissimilar enough to previous iterations that you are about as informed as my newbie ass is.

You keep building assumptions on assumptions on assumptions and pretty soon, it's obviously a house of assumptions, and if just one is wrong, the whole thing collapses.

You are not going to figure out thing-hood by writing five pages in two hours. Blade talks too much, that makes him more suspect in my book. I'm keeping my vote on him. No assumptions, no wierd-ass interpretations of normal speech, no absolute dissection and parsing of every single word someone says. Just a simple observation.

You talk too much, Blade. Stop. Listen more.

-Anxiety
LOL, i dont talk much to start and i get accused of being a thing and trying to fly UTR...now i talk and i am talking too much and must be a thing...i swear, i love WW :)

[Blade6119]

Here is the Barkeep scenario, which I have dismissed:

Day 0: 14-2 ratio, things are Saldana and Barkeep
Day 1: Jeebs cleared (14-2)
Night 1: Things kill scientist Qwikshot (13-2)
Day 2: Saldana/Thing killed (13-1)
Day 2 (again): Dubb cleared (13-1)
Night 2: Barkeep converts ???

I'll revisit this scenario if there is another death tomorrow night. But if not, this scenario stays on the cutting room floor for me.

If Barkeep is a Thing, I think it is impossible for both Raiders and Coffee to be Things. Too many deaths/conversions to map out without starting with three Things. Which, I still maintain, would not be a competitive game.
I see it as he might of had a dark assasin role, just like other games have had. Once a game, he can kill someone. Doesnt mean saldana cant convert..The fact that they havent done it again(yes, only one night has passed since) makes me think its quite possible. Then night 1 RA, night two CW.

[Blade6119]

The key for me is the double vote days...we have that power to counter-act some power/powers they were given...its an extremly powerful weapon if used properly, and therefore i must assume they were given some great powers too

[Blade6119]

Not in my mind, but if you make your assumptions about your own innocence then sure. I admit whatever you want. What other meaningless points do you want me to concede, becuase im happy to. Make a list real quick and ill admit to being the 20th hijacker if it makes you happy. Doesnt change what i think of the situation today.

My suspect list:
1.CW
2.RA(RA could be clean and CW, a thing, clears him...dubb did it a few games back, so we spend 2 days killing me or RA, then the other when they come up clear)
3.Barkeep(still dont know about the qwikshot kill, very possible third thing)
4.Dubb(despite his support of me, or maybe inspite of it...a possible convert, and is playing my support to earn my trust which ALAN T proved was oh so easy)
This is about the best summnation of my thoughts your going to get out of me, so i wanted to requote it for everyone. If you have questions that doesnt address, ill be a little suprised.

[st.cronin]

The key for me is the double vote days...we have that power to counter-act some power/powers they were given...its an extremly powerful weapon if used properly, and therefore i must assume they were given some great powers too

I think the ability to convert is a pretty fantastic power.

[Blade6119]

I think the ability to convert is a pretty fantastic power.
Yes, i agree...but with double votes we can easily kill them off in 1-2 days is we are smart with our votes. Especially given we already took 1-2 down. The double votes will be far more of a factor late in the game if we can control their numbers. With a smaller group, the double vote will de twice the weapon it is right now. In my mind were playing ball control until we get to a point where we can go on a run. And id assume we have a few blessed roles out there to help us a bit more as well, but we havent been lucky with that yet. And i pray, if we do have blessed, they act as witness and know who attacked

[Blade6119]

You are soundly asleep when one of you wakes you all up, and points out the fact that there's a definite smell of burning flesh in the air. You all head out toward the smell, but you don't have to go far before you notice wisps of some coming from the door to the kennel.

Inside you find a large black mass of burning flesh. At first, you assume it's a dog, but when you get closer you see that although having almost been reduce to cinders, there are what resemble the arms and legs of a human.

You quickly take stock of who's around you, and realize that Qwikshot is no where to be found.

This is not a good way to start the day.
After the death of Qwikshot, everyone's nerves are frayed beyond belief. The challenges, denials, and arguments fly.

It is finally decided that saldana will be the target of the test. You all get up from the table and give saldana some room. For what seems like forever, saldana just sits and stares at the razor without moving. Everyone begins to get tense. Finally, the tension breaks into anger, and several of you move in on saldana. Two of you grab his arm and hold it down, but it is apparant that he is giving no signs of struggle. One of you grabs the razor, and without hesitation, slices into saldana's thumb. No sooner than the razor tears the skin, saldana explodes from his chair, throwing those of you nearest to him across the room. His mouth widens to freakish proportions and some type of disgusting appendage shoots from it toward the center of your group, but it never reaches you as a plume of flame engulfs him and tosses him to the floor. It seems that someone has fashioned a makeshift flame-thrower out of the blowtorch.

Writhing in agony, saldana slowing burns to ashes before your eyes.


You have tested and killed a Thing, and may now vote for another person to be tested before the day is over.
Just wanted to compare those two death sequences, and the burning flesh seems to be quite similar in the two. That would tell me that barkeep is likely on the up-and-up(or was). In that regard, i would like to retract my accusations of him for the time being. I now actively believe qwikshot was a thing and we are closer then i thought

[st.cronin]

I think it's obvious that Barkeep WAS a scientist.

[st.cronin]

dola

Which means very little now, and will mean less after the next night cycle.

[path12]

There's really no need for long explanations at this point, it seems. I've spent the past 90 minutes going through the past 6 pages or so, and the choice is pretty clear and concise: RA/CW or Blade/Dubb? The arguments are pretty complete on both sides.

I'm buying the idea that Raiders and Coffee the converted seer are clever and bold enough to try and pull off a plan like this as things. What moved me here was when Coffee made the remark about being tested after Blade and Dubb. Since then, I'm seeing misdirection and spreading of fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to buy the one crucial day they need to get a jump on the humans.

If I'm wrong, then I have played badly, because this is a crucial vote. But I think I'm right.

VOTE COFFEE WARLORD

[Blade6119]

Hey Barkeep, what was the name of your role...CW made it clear his role was called the geneticist...did you recieve a similar name for your special role?

[Raiders Army]

vote me please, test me again, hell, test me the rest of the game, show how easily fooled you guys are. I love big circles. I would love for the bodyguard to reveal who he protected last night as long as it is either blade/hoops/dubb/coffee/barkeep, those are the 5 where I think the conversion came from. Seeing as how blade is thinking like me I'm confident it wasn't him, but coffee is pouring on the sugar coating like no other. Now I'll wait for RA to reveal he is the bodyguard....
I'm only a simple, but brilliant scientist. Why the hell would you think I was the bodyguard?

[Raiders Army]

If RA reveals he is the bodyguard my vote instantly goes to him. No further questions asked.
Que?

[hoopsguy]

Because earlier in the game you were not the bodyguard, based on your posts.

This has no bearing on my (non) role, but would point towards an inconsistency on your part that I would not be able to justify. But I don't think that you would go this direction anyways, so it is a moot point.


Right?

[Raiders Army]

I got back after a couple of hours of gaming and there are over FIVE FREAKIN PAGES of posts to get caught up on.

I think it's high time that you guys admit that you simpyl have no F'in clue as to what's going on. This version is dissimilar enough to previous iterations that you are about as informed as my newbie ass is.

You keep building assumptions on assumptions on assumptions and pretty soon, it's obviously a house of assumptions, and if just one is wrong, the whole thing collapses.

You are not going to figure out thing-hood by writing five pages in two hours. Blade talks too much, that makes him more suspect in my book. I'm keeping my vote on him. No assumptions, no wierd-ass interpretations of normal speech, no absolute dissection and parsing of every single word someone says. Just a simple observation.

You talk too much, Blade. Stop. Listen more.

-Anxiety
After a good night's sleep (not really, I puked about 12 am) I think this is probably the most coherent post in the past 12 hours. I think Blade talks too much in terms of fluff. As it was said before in other games, he throws so much shit out there, he just sees what sticks and then throws shit on top of it. I really don't think he listens at all or he ignores the other side of the argument.

[Raiders Army]

Because earlier in the game you were not the bodyguard, based on your posts.

This has no bearing on my (non) role, but would point towards an inconsistency on your part that I would not be able to justify. But I don't think that you would go this direction anyways, so it is a moot point.


Right?
Gotcha. Right.

[Raiders Army]

A few thoughts before I get ready to head to work:

1. After re-reading some of the posts, I agree that CW's post about his seer reveal makes it seem as if I'm legit today. It only came out later that he wouldn't know if I were converted Night 2. I gave him a bye initially since I knew I was a scientist and that's what he said. I think some of you are reading a little too much into his posts. It's not like other people haven't misposted. For example:

Post #467
We haven't converted since Saldana just died.

It sounds as if dubb is a Thing. I asked "Who's we" and he responded not to read anything into it. I find it ironic that he's doing the same thing to CW.

2. There is a possibility that dubb is still a Thing and the test won't work on him (damn if I can't remember that role right now). Frankly, I think that's a very slim possibility, but it might be considered. I'm trying to think how it would be balanced in the game. Barkeep's power, perhaps? That would be the only way to kill him. I just don't think that this is something to think hard about, but perhaps consider with any testing we do.

3. The more and more I think about it, I agree that Blade is just a loquacious stubborn individual and not a Thing. I also am not sure that dubb is converted either. Finally, I don't think CW is a Thing. I know I'm not a Thing. In a way, I think that the Thing(s) are sitting back and watch the four of us go at each other while we argue about testing four scientists. I'm going to try to step back a little to observe a little more (plus I have quite a bit of work today).

[hoopsguy]

Picking any random four people out of the remaining group, it is only 50% likely that you have a Thing in the mix (12/14*11/13*10/12*9/11 = 49.5). So I certainly agree that this is possible.

I would like to think that we collectively are better than random at this stage in the game when it comes to putting together a group of four. That said, the Dubb/Blade vs CW/RA debate basically wasn't any one person selecting four people, but instead reacting to four people who had seemed to choose sides.

Sorry to break out math in the middle of a perfectly good werewolf game.

FWIW, based on my list of assumptions from earlier in the game we are facing two converts right now. Which makes it harder to track, since they have not been playing as Things the entire game.

Here is my list of assumptions, re-posted from #793, with #4 added late last night as I was putting off work to think about this addictive game:

1.) We started with two Things
2.) Barkeep killed one of them on Night 1 (Qwikshot)
3.) They have converted on each of the first two nights; we are still facing two things (12-2 ratio now)
4.) Qwikshot and Saldana were the two original Things

In my mind, it makes zero sense to convert Saldana after his Day 1 rant about the code. I know it set off alarm bells for me that he was a Thing at the time; you don't want to attract heat as a Thing so why convert someone who has already created that kind of suspicion?

[hoopsguy]

From Anxiety, Post #970:
You keep building assumptions on assumptions on assumptions and pretty soon, it's obviously a house of assumptions, and if just one is wrong, the whole thing collapses.


This I agree with, which is why I published my assumptions earlier and why I just re-posted them. I'll put the assumptions out there for people to react to (yes, this includes the Things) and hopefully help us reach a common set of assumptions. It is definitely easier to understand why someone votes a certain way if they lay out their assumptions.

In this particular game, I think this may potentially be more valuable than publishing a circle of trust, which is extremely fluid given the conversions aspect of this game.

[Barkeep49]

Hey Barkeep, what was the name of your role...CW made it clear his role was called the geneticist...did you recieve a similar name for your special role?
I feel this falls under the Schmdity prohibition about discussing PMs and will not be sharing the name of my role as such.

[Barkeep49]

Ok let's do a post look at for each of our 4 suspects. Coffee is the easiest as I had already done his through post 264 so we'll start with him.

Coffee Warlord
97 - Asks not to be tested since he's afraid of needles
99 - Says Path is a lesbian and so we should kill him
101 - Reminds that it's Night 0 so no vote
104 - In response to Jeeber commenting on the needles says we shouldn't listen to Cowboys fans
139 - Votes for Jeeber for secretly loving TO
156 -
Which is also the problem. Do we waste votes the next day on people cleared, or do we go after others? Rough.
162 - Hopes that that we have ways of clearing people besides votes
169 - Wonders how a day's second vote will work
170 - Realizes that second vote is only if we get a Thing
207 - Meaningless
208 - Votes for me to see if I'm on the up and up
209 - Realizes vote for me doesn't count as it's after deadline
234 - Says it would hugely suck if I kill him
244 - Schedule question
252 -
As we still have pretty much nothing to go on, and I think, at this point, a vote on Jeeber is a waste (we have to clear some more people first - we can't just do repeat votes on the same person)....

There are a few people I fear as "wolves" always. I want him either cleared or killed.

Vote Raiders Army
262 - Says vote for Raiders is shot in the dark and is out of respect for his previous wolfing.
264 - Thinks hoops is on the level
329 - Says he thinks hoops is clear unless a convert and believes RA to be the best of the suspects, though not too confident
345 - Doesn't have a preference about going after a convert or original Shitface
387 - Unvotes RA
388 -
Something feels wrong here. I know I said I was pretty sure hoops was okay, but something seems wrong.

Vote Hoops
393 - Says he had "good vibes" about hoops but now wonders since hoops was casting suspicion unto him. Some posts are "out of character"
397 - Feels vote against hoops is a "gut feeling"
428 - Meaningless post
473 - Decides to trust hoops and the list, despite his being on it. Votes for WVU for being under the radar
561 - Votes dubb to try and prevent a tie
581 - Agrees to go after RA
585 - Votes for RA
589 - Hopes we're not tied
590 - Wants someone to change "now"
593 - Votes for dubb to try and prevent a tie
596 - Comments on how crazy the end of voting was
600 - Would rather vote against dubb then have a tie
605 - Again on the crazy of the last minute voting
608 - Comments to Blade, with a smiley, that tomorrow is a new chance to have a crazy vote
612 - Meaningless post
616 - Wants results
682 - Comes out as seer and says has scanned hoops and CW
687 - Believes that the longer he waits to come out the higher the chance he has of being converted
690 - Votes Blade for doubting him
692 - Believes that seer isn't as good as normal as another reason he came out
703 - Says since I picked up on his seer hints that Shitfaces might as well defending his coming out as seer
743 - Wants people to watch who votes for him
746 - Didn't want us to waste a day with RA when he knew RA was innocent
747 - Thinks Blade might be a Shitface
755 - Explains about what UTR means (under the radar)
795 - Talking in response to WVU
I'll happily offer myself to be tested....after Blade and you.

It has been my experience there's traditionally at least one Bad Guy pushing hard to discredit a major role reveal, along with one person guessing totally wrong.

I do, however, question your Thinghood since you haven't been around. Hence, blade goes first, and we'll see how things sort out tomorrow.
797 - Says he's always wrong about Blade but has to be right one of these times
806 - Repeats that he came out to avoid people piling on an innocent
829 - Admits that if RA was converted last night he wouldn't know that
933 - Believes that this game has been similar to X-COM where bad guys discredited his good role
935 - Starting to believe Blade is a villager
938 - Points out how many times people have been wrong about Blade
941 - In response to dubb
I feel it necessary to, gasp, inform people of the entire situation. The seer role is REALLY DAMN WEAK this game, and people need to understand that.

And you've been converted.
944 - Says he knows a conversion could have happened after his scan because he asked schmidty
946 - Votes for dubb as a liklier suspect then Blade
950 - To dubb
No, at this point, I don't want you to believe shit. I'm convinced you've been converted.

For the gallery, however.

I was trying to come up with ways to prevent me from being trusted if I AM converted after tonight. Obviously if I become a Thing, I'm going to play for the Things. It's totally against the spirit of WW any other way.

Right now, however, I'm a scientist. Thusly, I'm trying to create a scenario where, if I'm converted, there will be as little way as possible for my now public role to be used. If anyone has any better idea on how to accomplish that, I'm open to suggestions.
958 - Meaningless post
961 - Meaningless post
968 - Meaningless post

Dubb will be next followed by RA before I take on the monster that is recapping Blade's posts, which I'm not sure I will even be able to do until much later in the day.

[Coffee Warlord]

FYI - Meeting From Hell this afternoon, and busy preparing for Meeting From Hell this morning. Availability limited.

[hoopsguy]

Barkeep, I expect you will finish the recaps of the posts by those four guys about six hours after our deadline :)

[path12]

Going through that list, maybe it's just me but it really looks like Coffee's play changed from day 2 to day 3.

[hoopsguy]

In all seriousness, I'm hoping that whether or not you have finished that process that by mid-afternoon or so you will be willing/able to talk about your impressions of yesterday.

One trend I would look for is people who's general tenor of their posts change, as I believe both wolves right now are converts. So if you are able to establish some kind of baseline for the candidates on Day 1 and then look for shifts in voice/direction/purpose after the night action. If you are taking that approach then I think the total post capture is potentially very useful.