The Thread of the 2009-2010 NBA Season

[DaddyTorgo]

Hm. What did the Lakers send that was anywhere near as valuable as Jefferson?

Seriously. Jefferson is a young, all-star caliber player.

the Gasol trade was a fucking joke that Stern allowed so that Kobe could get a ring and he could rekindle the "Lakers-Celtics" rivalry.

[MikeVic]

Yeah, I don't know how anyone can say the Wolves trade was worse. Al Jefferson was tearing it up before the injury.

[DaddyTorgo]

The rumored offers revolved around Odom and Bynum.

not as good as Jefferson.

Bynum hasn't shown he can stay healthy and produce. Odom is older.

C's deal had Jefferson and also Ryan Gomes, who is playing very well for Minny (and played well for the C's also).

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

What was the actual offer?

Upon rereading, I think I might have confused the discussion. I thought that MrBug was claiming the Garnett trade was a worse rip-off than the Gasol trade (not a rumored Laker-Garnett trade).

[Chief Rum]

What was the actual offer?

No one knows. The Wolves didn't accept the offer. :)

[Chief Rum]

not as good as Jefferson.

Bynum hasn't shown he can stay healthy and produce. Odom is older.

C's deal had Jefferson and also Ryan Gomes, who is playing very well for Minny (and played well for the C's also).

This deal isn't being done now, it was being done two years and change ago now. Bynum hadn't yet sustained any injuries; he was just a kid with a lot of potential who as generally asked for by just about everyone. Odom's value has actually probably gone up since then, as he has become a little more consistent now with less nightly pressure on him to perform.

Also, at that point in time, neither Bynum nor Odom were signed to extensions, but both were two seasons from even a shot at free agency.

I think Jefferson is a terrific player, and he is the best of the three now, and might be the best of the three in the long run.

That said, Jefferson by himself wasn't worth anywhere near as much as a Bynum-Odom package. I don't know if Gomes as he was valued then, a pick that became Brewer and the mish-mash of other parts would make up the difference or not.

Personally, I don't much subscribe to the McHale took the Celtics' offer over the Lakers' offer over personal loyalties theory. I actually think the Wolves came back with Odom and Bynum, and it was the Lakers that balked at that, from what I recall of the rumors.

IMO, the Wolves took the best offer they had on the table, and it's hard to say they did a "favorite" deal when they got a terrific player like Jefferson.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

While I still would take Jefferson over Bynum/Odom, I'm pretty convinced that this discussion was comparing Gasol's deal to Garnett's.

[MrBug708]

No...it was the rumored deal. Wolves picked Boston over the Lakers. What trade did the Griz turn down in favor of the Lakers? No one else offered anything for Pau Gasol

[Warhammer]

And Pau's bro is one of the best young Cs in the league.

[DaddyTorgo]

No...it was the rumored deal. Wolves picked Boston over the Lakers. What trade did the Griz turn down in favor of the Lakers? No one else offered anything for Pau Gasol


Oh, then i misunderstood too.

[TroyF]

No...it was the rumored deal. Wolves picked Boston over the Lakers. What trade did the Griz turn down in favor of the Lakers? No one else offered anything for Pau Gasol

First off, I can factually tell you that isn't true. The Grizz had multiple offers for Gasol, I know the exact particulars of one such offer. (and no, I can't tell it, but you can probably figure out which team it was from)

Second off, even if I couldn't tell you there were other offers out there, are you seriously going to insinuate that the Lakers were the knights in shining armor for the Grizz and offered something for a 7 foot, 26 year old all star power forward when nobody else would? Are you REALLY going to try to push that garbage through?

The Lakers gave up Kwame (garbage), Crittean (he was considered nothing more than a prospect at the time, useless), Aaron McKie (who was working as an unpaid assistent coach for Philly at the time he was signed to a contract on the day of the trade so it would work under the cap), two first round picks (which were next to worthless) and Marc Gasol. (who at the time was an undersized kid that most people thought wouldn't even make the league) he turned into a great player, yippeee. . . it was still a garbage trade.

It was a pure, 100% salary dump and it wouldn't have been allowed if it were any team other than the Lakers getting Gasol.

Didn't mean to start a debate about it. it's something that just doesn't sit well with me even to this day. I cannot wait until Stern is gone from the league.

[Samdari]

It was a pure, 100% salary dump and it wouldn't have been allowed if it were any team other than the Lakers getting Gasol.

I keep hearing people say this, and cannot believe it.

The NBA allows trades that are pure salary dumps. Can anyone name a single instance where a trade was disallowed because it was a salary dump? This isn't even the first time a retired player was signed just to have a salary available to work under the cap.

[Chief Rum]

I keep hearing people say this, and cannot believe it.

The NBA allows trades that are pure salary dumps. Can anyone name a single instance where a trade was disallowed because it was a salary dump? This isn't even the first time a retired player was signed just to have a salary available to work under the cap.

Heck, Shaq this past offseason was a salary dump. I guess it can only happen if its to the Lakers OR the Cavs.

[Samdari]

Heck, Shaq this past offseason was a salary dump. I guess it can only happen if its to the Lakers OR the Cavs.

There are lots of examples of trades that were salary dumps that were allowed to happen. I cannot think of a single example of a trade that was disallowed by the league office WHICH MET THE SALARY CAP rules because they judged it was unfair in value of players or impact to the league.

[heybrad]

The Grizz owner said it was a pure salary dump. The Lakers actually offered Odom originally as part of the deal and they didn't want him because of his contract.

But... as has been pointed out, when did the league ever not allow a salary dump trade?

[MikeVic]

Bah I just don't want Gasol on the Lakers. ;)

[DaddyTorgo]

salary dump trades make the nba less fun and result in less parity

[molson]

There are lots of examples of trades that were salary dumps that were allowed to happen. I cannot think of a single example of a trade that was disallowed by the league office WHICH MET THE SALARY CAP rules because they judged it was unfair in value of players or impact to the league.

Not just the NBA, has this happened in ANY league in the last few decades?

I think really, the last thing the league offices need to do is micro-manage trades. Can you imagine the resulting conspiracy talk (the commissioner letting one trade through but not another)? I think if it's legal under the cap rules, you have to let it happen. Let the heat go to the owner/gm.

[stevew]

Sheed from Atlanta to Detroit was a nice little "fuck you" to competitive balance IIRC.

[TroyF]

I keep hearing people say this, and cannot believe it.

The NBA allows trades that are pure salary dumps. Can anyone name a single instance where a trade was disallowed because it was a salary dump? This isn't even the first time a retired player was signed just to have a salary available to work under the cap.

When you start signing retired players to make a trade work under the cap, it's a garbage trade. That single trade will destroy the competitive balance of the Western Conference for the next 5-8 years. It should never have been allowed to happen.

The Suns/Shaq experiment didn't work out. Shaq is a 37 year old making over 21 million dollars. A salary dump there is appropriate. A salary dump of an all star 7 footer in the prime of his career is "slightly" different. Like I said, no problem. TR Dunn is an assistant with the Rockets, Alex English is an assistant with the Raptors. I think the Nuggets should sign both TR and Alex to contracts and trade them away for Shane Battier and Chris Bosh.

Oh. . . they created a rule now to prevent that sort of thing. . . because Stern and the powers that be knew they should stop total farces from happening. . . only problem is he didn't step up for the good of the league when it happened and halted the BS. He let that one last big trade go through.

That's where I'm in the wrong though and I know it. The good of the league is to have the Lakers as an elite team. It's not the competitive way to go about it, but it's best for the NBA as a whole. Stern allowed Kings/Lakers game 6 to happen without retribution to anyone. He was damned well not going to get in the middle of a trade to swing the balance of power back to LA either.

[molson]

Some trades are clearly garbage, but the proper response to them is to make them illegal (or ideally, make them illegal beforehand). Make rules that apply to everybody uniformly.

Stern can't be in a position where he's expected to evaluate the fairness of trades on a case by case basis. That would be absolute insanity, and it would damage the perceived integrity of the league far more than a bad trade does.

[jbergey22]

While I still would take Jefferson over Bynum/Odom, I'm pretty convinced that this discussion was comparing Gasol's deal to Garnett's.

Really? Id take Bynum by himself over Jefferson. Jefferson is a good rebounder and scorer but his defense is average at best. Bynum would put up the same numbers as Jefferson and be a beast in the middle IMO. Jefferson has inflated numbers due to playing on a team with no other weapons.

[jbergey22]

The trade turned out as a win/win for the Lakers.

They got a younger better player than KG at this point of his career without have to give up anything. Athough Im sure the Celts arent complaining much either.

The NBA is more star driven than any other league and it just shows what 2/3 stars on the same team can do.

Im still mad that McHale had 12 years to find a star around KG and was unable to do it. Pathetic.

[Chief Rum]

When you start signing retired players to make a trade work under the cap, it's a garbage trade. That single trade will destroy the competitive balance of the Western Conference for the next 5-8 years. It should never have been allowed to happen.

The Suns/Shaq experiment didn't work out. Shaq is a 37 year old making over 21 million dollars. A salary dump there is appropriate. A salary dump of an all star 7 footer in the prime of his career is "slightly" different. Like I said, no problem. TR Dunn is an assistant with the Rockets, Alex English is an assistant with the Raptors. I think the Nuggets should sign both TR and Alex to contracts and trade them away for Shane Battier and Chris Bosh.

Oh. . . they created a rule now to prevent that sort of thing. . . because Stern and the powers that be knew they should stop total farces from happening. . . only problem is he didn't step up for the good of the league when it happened and halted the BS. He let that one last big trade go through.

That's where I'm in the wrong though and I know it. The good of the league is to have the Lakers as an elite team. It's not the competitive way to go about it, but it's best for the NBA as a whole. Stern allowed Kings/Lakers game 6 to happen without retribution to anyone. He was damned well not going to get in the middle of a trade to swing the balance of power back to LA either.

What's the rule?

[DaddyTorgo]

Really? Id take Bynum by himself over Jefferson. Jefferson is a good rebounder and scorer but his defense is average at best. Bynum would put up the same numbers as Jefferson and be a beast in the middle IMO. Jefferson has inflated numbers due to playing on a team with no other weapons.


:lol::lol::lol:

[jbergey22]

:lol::lol::lol:

Take it from someone that watches Jefferson on a consistent basis. Over rated.

[stevew]

You guys do realize that if the situation presents itself, the Cavs will sign and trade wally at some point this year. He made 14M last year so it is possible that basically any player in play could be headed to Cleveland. If it comes down to the Raps being far out of contention in February I could see Bosh and a crap contract going to cleveland for JJ, Picks and wally. Just as a example of course.

[Chief Rum]

You guys do realize that if the situation presents itself, the Cavs will sign and trade wally at some point this year. He made 14M last year so it is possible that basically any player in play could be headed to Cleveland. If it comes down to the Raps being far out of contention in February I could see Bosh and a crap contract going to cleveland for JJ, Picks and wally. Just as a example of course.

Why would someone trade someone great in their last year for someone crappy in their last year? And the Cavs are too good for the picks to be worth something.

I guess maybe if a team is convinced it has no chance at the playoffs or keeping its star player and also happens to really love Hickson's potential, well, then maybe. But other than that, what would be the point?

It would make more sense if Wally was shipped away for a very good player with a lot of time left on his contract. That's a deal a team would be inclined to do.

[stevew]

Sure. I guess my main point was that wally will get overpaid this year to facilitate the Cavs getting s player for 10 cents on the dollar.

[Warhammer]

The Grizz owner said it was a pure salary dump. The Lakers actually offered Odom originally as part of the deal and they didn't want him because of his contract.

I'd love to see where Heisley was quoted saying that. Much was made of the trade by management here regarding the gaining of Marc Gasol, and the two 1st rounders.

[Samdari]

When you start signing retired players to make a trade work under the cap, it's a garbage trade. That single trade will destroy the competitive balance of the Western Conference for the next 5-8 years. It should never have been allowed to happen.

I wasn't trying to comment on whether or not the league should have allowed that, or any, trade.

I was just trying to disabuse the ridiculous notion that "if it wasn't the Lakers, this trade would never have been allowed" The league has very specific rules for trades, and if a submitted trade meets them, the league does not overrule them. Sure, signing people off the street to create a matching salary is patently ridiculous, but it was legal, and other teams had done it before the Gasol trade. It would have been allowed regardless of who the principals were.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and while this was clearly an attempt to shed salary, there were other factors. Gasol was very unhappy in Memphis, starting to be a malcontent (bitching about how much he wanted out) and putting forth questionable efforts.

[Warhammer]

Pau very much needed to get out of Memphis. Becoming a malcontent and putting out questionable effort on a young team is a cardinal sin.

[molson]

Just imagine if Stern reviewed all trades on a case-by-case basis, allowing some and overruling others.

Every time a deal improving large market team was allowed, and every time a deal improving a small market team was voided, the conspiracy talk would be more unbearable than it already is.

[MrBug708]

You must be a Lakers Hater.

No trade has been stopped unless the players don't pass their physical.

He was rather pro-Lakers until they beat the Nuggets last year in the WCF

[MrBug708]

I'd love to see where Heisley was quoted saying that. Much was made of the trade by management here regarding the gaining of Marc Gasol, and the two 1st rounders.

Heisley's 'the guy making decisions'» The Commercial Appeal (http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/feb/03/heisleys-the-guy-making-decisions/)

There is the stuff on the Pau Gasol trade

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Marc Gasol has turned out to be a very nice player, but I don't really remember him being positioned as the key to the trade in any way.

[MrBug708]

I believe it was the rights to Marc Gasol. But then again, Crittanden was supposed to be a good prospect so that ended up being a good sticking point

[TroyF]

He was rather pro-Lakers until they beat the Nuggets last year in the WCF

Huh? I'm not now and have never been a Laker "hater"

If I "hate" one team in the league, it would be the Utah Jazz. (and as you can probably guess, that has little to do with them winning a lot of championships)

As for you bug, I didn't even expect the Nuggets to get into the conference finals last year, much less win it. I predicted at the start of the series that it would be Lakers in either 5 or 7 games. (I didn't expect Denver to lay an egg at home in game 6)

I just HATE that trade. It still bothers me to this day. The competitive balance of an entire conference was destroyed for a 5-8 year period. And it's not like we didn't all know what was going to happen the second the deal was made either. Imagine a trade sending Lebron to Orlando for Brandon Bass and NOBODY else. You think anyone in the East has a chance for the next 5 years without lots of knees blowing out in Magic games? That's what this trade did.

I can't stand it and I can't stand the ridiculous notion that the Lakers were the ONLY team who offered anything for a 7 foot all star in the prime of his career. The assertation is ridiculous.

[heybrad]

I just HATE that trade. It still bothers me to this day. The competitive balance of an entire conference was destroyed for a 5-8 year period. And it's not like we didn't all know what was going to happen the second the deal was made either. Imagine a trade sending Lebron to Orlando for Brandon Bass and NOBODY else. You think anyone in the East has a chance for the next 5 years without lots of knees blowing out in Magic games? That's what this trade did.

I can't stand it and I can't stand the ridiculous notion that the Lakers were the ONLY team who offered anything for a 7 foot all star in the prime of his career. The assertation is ridiculous.
Yes, that would be an odd trade for a championship caliber team like Cleveland to trade their star away to another championship caliber team. It's not at all what happened in this case. It was a bad team dumping salary. Good luck trying to match salaries for that trade as well.

And you are correct that there were multiple offers to Memphis for Gasol and Heisley outlines his reasons pretty well in the article above on why he didn't think they fit his plan. Criticize his plan all you want. It's his plan.

[TroyF]

Onto other things:

The Blazers had a monumental step up last night. Bayless was sensational. They badly needed to get that win with the four road games they have coming up. I think it's clear that their best lineup is Bayless, Roy, Webster, Aldridge, Pryzbilla, with Bayless and Roy splitting the ball handling duties about evenly.

In other news, Michael Beasley is developing into one hell of a player. I think people forget he's only 20 years old. I think he's an all star by the time he's 23 or 24.

[MrBug708]

Huh? I'm not now and have never been a Laker "hater"

If I "hate" one team in the league, it would be the Utah Jazz. (and as you can probably guess, that has little to do with them winning a lot of championships)

As for you bug, I didn't even expect the Nuggets to get into the conference finals last year, much less win it. I predicted at the start of the series that it would be Lakers in either 5 or 7 games. (I didn't expect Denver to lay an egg at home in game 6)

I just HATE that trade. It still bothers me to this day. The competitive balance of an entire conference was destroyed for a 5-8 year period. And it's not like we didn't all know what was going to happen the second the deal was made either. Imagine a trade sending Lebron to Orlando for Brandon Bass and NOBODY else. You think anyone in the East has a chance for the next 5 years without lots of knees blowing out in Magic games? That's what this trade did.

I can't stand it and I can't stand the ridiculous notion that the Lakers were the ONLY team who offered anything for a 7 foot all star in the prime of his career. The assertation is ridiculous.

Come now, I think Gasol is good, but he isn't Lebron good :)

[jbergey22]

Onto other things:

The Blazers had a monumental step up last night. Bayless was sensational. They badly needed to get that win with the four road games they have coming up. I think it's clear that their best lineup is Bayless, Roy, Webster, Aldridge, Pryzbilla, with Bayless and Roy splitting the ball handling duties about evenly.

In other news, Michael Beasley is developing into one hell of a player. I think people forget he's only 20 years old. I think he's an all star by the time he's 23 or 24.

I dont think anyone questions his offense but his defense is so bad at times they cant afford to keep him on the court. He really needs to step it up and become that 2nd good player on that team or Wade is out the door.

[Warhammer]

Heisley's 'the guy making decisions'» The Commercial Appeal (http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/feb/03/heisleys-the-guy-making-decisions/)

There is the stuff on the Pau Gasol trade

Thanks. The way that was spun locally was that Memphis was trying to get younger guys, Chicago didn't want to divide their core, so we went to LA. At least locally, Marc Gasol was played up as a key part of the trade (the locals had been able to see him progress through HS, etc.). Crittenden IIRC outplayed Conally, but was never really given a shot here. The extra picks were played up as a big deal for either trade bait, or additional players.

You also have to remember, Pau is very soft. He had no big in the middle that would keep the other team from muscling him around. Pau is not a good #1 player, however, he is a stellar #2 man.

[MrBug708]

He's also the best triangle player for Phil Jackson. In related news, the Lakers and Pau have almost agreed to a 3 year extension with the Lakers

[DaddyTorgo]

i would probably mind Pau less if he'd fucking shave. He looks like a fucking doofus with the scruffy facial hair and the floppy mid-length hair.

[MrBug708]

Cant wait til they retire his jersey :)

[whomario]

First things first : Jonathan Bender is back in the NBA !! I was highly intrigued with him back when he entered the league but he was really injury prone and retired at like 25 (and played only 9 games the 2 years prior and 21 the year before that) in 06. Had been working on a comeback all the time with rehab and then intensified it a year ago. Now the Knicks signed him and he played last night allready and played great to top that, 9 points in 15 minutes off the bench.
Really happy for the guy, great story :)


Onto other things:

The Blazers had a monumental step up last night. Bayless was sensational. They badly needed to get that win with the four road games they have coming up. I think it's clear that their best lineup is Bayless, Roy, Webster, Aldridge, Pryzbilla, with Bayless and Roy splitting the ball handling duties about evenly.
.

What imo will benefit the Blazers a lot is when they get Batum back. He didn´t play a ton, but kind of stabilized things and improved a lot over the summer judging by his play for France (even with that shoulder injury being imminent allready) . Plus Fernandez is out and was hurt earlier before deciding to opt for that little surgery.
But it´s pretty clear that Blake needs to go, you can´t bring 2 PG-sized and a smallish SG (Rudy is 6´5 but a very thin 6´5) off the bench and play them decent minutes.
And yes, by now i don´t think Miller will fit but he´ll be pretty much untradeable. I maintain that it´s him being misused and Roy failing to adjust more than anything else though ...
Yesterdays win, that was on Phoenix, they simply folded in the 4th with no one able to offer relieve for captain canada. Richardson was out along with Barbosa, which is huge for a team relying solely on their perimeter guys to score and create.

Not having any solid backup-bigs will hurt them as well. I mean, Howard is ok and a great veteran, but him as your main big off the bench at this stage of his career ? Outlaw will be back, but he´s a 4 by very generous judgement ...

Really don´t get their style of play compared to their roster makeup. It´s been a bit better with Bayless getting minutes, but still with that roster (small on nearly every position) they´d need to run more and defend more agressively.



Other things of note :

-Omri Casspi with back-to-bacxk 20 point games as a starter. Clear-cut starter material. Seriously, the guy is so polished offensively allready and not half bad defensively as well aside from some timing issues :)

-Kevin Love is an amazing rebounder.

-Philly beats Boston with Iverson sitting out :lol: Elton Brand with a throwback effort : 23/8 in 26 minutes off the bench.

- Chris Paul is amazing, Last night he scored or assisted 32 of the Hornets 40 FGs :eek: Peja can still stroke that ball, albeit really nothing else at this point.

-Ariza finally with a game with good shot selcetion. His amount of 3 pointers was ridiculous the last couple of games. But then again someone has to take them. The Rockets regularly have 2,3 guys with really bad shooting nights and still win, individually and as a team they are not efficient but since every game also 2,3 guys get hot it works.

-T-Mac is worlds away from being a real contributor. But i like how he doesnßt force it at all, pushes the ball, makes the extra pass and runs the floor.

- Nowitzki and Landry with a pretty nasty collision, both players didn´t return.

[RainMaker]

You also have to remember, Pau is very soft. He had no big in the middle that would keep the other team from muscling him around. Pau is not a good #1 player, however, he is a stellar #2 man.
Agree for the most part on him being a much better #2. But he's still one of the top 10 players in the league.

[RainMaker]

That trade wasnt even as bad as the Garnett trade to Minnesota. The Griz took the first deal offered. The T-Wolves did it to help the C's
I don't know how you can say that. Al Jefferson is much better than anyone that went to Memphis in that deal. He's a perennial All-Star who was building his way up to being one of the best PF in the league. He was averaging 23 and 11 before tearing his ACL.

[RainMaker]

No...it was the rumored deal. Wolves picked Boston over the Lakers. What trade did the Griz turn down in favor of the Lakers? No one else offered anything for Pau Gasol
The Bulls offered Ben Gordon and Andres Nocioni for him the summer before that deal went down. I know the Grizzlies wanted Deng in the deal in some form though.

In any event, the trade was real fishy from the start. Wonder if there were some backroom deals in place to help get Pau to the Los Angeles market. I just can't fathom that Memphis couldn't have gotten more for a top 10 player.

I'd add the same can be said for Minnesota although I don't think the deal was bad for them. I just wouldn't be surprised if there was some prodding behind the scenes to make it happen. These are small market teams that were hurting financially. The NBA has always had a WWE element to it.

[jbergey22]

I don't know how you can say that. Al Jefferson is much better than anyone that went to Memphis in that deal. He's a perennial All-Star who was building his way up to being one of the best PF in the league. He was averaging 23 and 11 before tearing his ACL.

For one I was comparing him to Bynum and Oden. Secondly how could he be a perennial All-Star when he has never even made an All-Star game? Id take Bynum over Jefferson was my comment. I'm sure most people actually would. Bynum is a stud defender in which Al Jefferson is not. Jefferson is a 6 10' post player.

Stats are a poor indicator of a player especially on poor teams. All NBA teams average around 100 points and all teams average around 40-50 rebounds per game so someone has to get points and rebounds.

Devin Harris went from a 15 point a game scorer to a 21.3 by going to a poor team. Richard Jefferson has been floating around the league averaging around 20 points per game on bad teams. Now that he is on a good team he averages 13.4. Even Al Harrinton has averaged 21.5 points per game these past two years.

Lack of options=more points.

[RainMaker]

For one I was comparing him to Bynum and Oden. Secondly how could he be a perennial All-Star when he has never even made an All-Star game? Id take Bynum over Jefferson was my comment. I'm sure most people actually would. Bynum is a stud defender in which Al Jefferson is not. Jefferson is a 6 10' post player.

Stats are a poor indicator of a player especially on poor teams. All NBA teams average around 100 points and all teams average around 40-50 rebounds per game so someone has to get points and rebounds.

Devin Harris went from a 15 point a game scorer to a 21.3 by going to a poor team. Richard Jefferson has been floating around the league averaging around 20 points per game on bad teams. Now that he is on a good team he averages 13.4. Even Al Harrinton has averaged 21.5 points per game these past two years.

Lack of options=more points.
The thing is that the T-Wolves actually turned into a decent team by the middle of last season. They had a stretch where they won like 10 of 12 games and were a pretty good team from the end of December to when Jefferson got hurt (I believe over .500).

I believe Jefferson has the talent to be a perennial All-Star in this league. He's one of the best low post offensive players in the league and at the time of the trade was only 22. There just aren't a lot of guys who can score like that in the post like that in the league (can count them on one hand).

Bynum is a good player with potential, but I don't think he's as talented as Jefferson. Jefferson is a much better offensive player and in an offensive league, that's a big difference. It reminds me a bit of the Durant/Oden debate a couple years ago. Always go with the best offensive player.

[stevew]

I think Pau is good. But I don't think he's in the top 10. Somewhere in the high teens most likely. Regardless the griz really shit the bed on that trade.

[jbergey22]

Bynum is a good player with potential, but I don't think he's as talented as Jefferson. Jefferson is a much better offensive player and in an offensive league, that's a big difference. It reminds me a bit of the Durant/Oden debate a couple years ago. Always go with the best offensive player.

The problem with this argument is that Jefferson is not a much better offensive player. Jefferson gets a lot more shots and scores more points however he also isnt sharing the spotlight with Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol.

Bynum's offensive game is actually very similiar to Jeffersons. They both use the hook shot quite often as a post up move. Jefferson has a decent 12-15 from jumper which Bynum doesnt have. Bynum is close to a 60 percent career shooter which means his productivity is off the charts. It tells me they should try to get him more involved. Take a 16 point per game scorer that shoots close to 60 percent and get him 3 more shots a game and you have your 20 point per game scorer.

All things being equal Jefferson is the best player on a team that wins 20 games a year while Bynum is the 3rd best player on a team that wins 60-70 games a year.

They are both good players however IMO the Twolves would win more games with Bynum than they do with Jefferson. A defensive stopped in the middle is a great equalizer when the rest of your team is below average.

[RainMaker]

I'd disagree. I think the fact Jefferson can hit a mid-range jumper is a huge advantage. Bynum has one post move and is more of a finisher off passes and put-backs. Nothing wrong with that at all and he'll be a solid scoring threat in the league. Jefferson is also a better rebounder.

If you're judging Jefferson by this year, he's still coming back from major knee surgery. As I mentioned, when he got hurt, the T-Wolves were not a meddling 20-win team. They were actually average and some could argue above average. They had a big month of January and seemed to be coming together well. He was thoroughly dominant in a number of games and unstoppable in the paint offensively.

I've watched both a lot and I like both their games. But when the trade was made, I'd definitely take Jefferson.

[RainMaker]

I think Pau is good. But I don't think he's in the top 10. Somewhere in the high teens most likely. Regardless the griz really shit the bed on that trade.
I think his position and size plays a role in my ranking. He's the best offensive big man in the game. The best in the league in the post and solid in the high post. I just don't know how the best offensive big man in the league could be outside the top 10.

[jbergey22]

I'd disagree. I think the fact Jefferson can hit a mid-range jumper is a huge advantage. Bynum has one post move and is more of a finisher off passes and put-backs. Nothing wrong with that at all and he'll be a solid scoring threat in the league. Jefferson is also a better rebounder.

If you're judging Jefferson by this year, he's still coming back from major knee surgery. As I mentioned, when he got hurt, the T-Wolves were not a meddling 20-win team. They were actually average and some could argue above average. They had a big month of January and seemed to be coming together well. He was thoroughly dominant in a number of games and unstoppable in the paint offensively.

I've watched both a lot and I like both their games. But when the trade was made, I'd definitely take Jefferson.

They were 17-33 when Jefferson got hurt, were 4-6 in their last 10, 6-8 in the month prior. They did have a 5 game winning streak against the Warriors, Bucks, Grizzlies, Thunder and Bucks in early to mid January though.

If Jeffersons mid range shot is such an advantage you might think he would be able to shoot above 50 percent? Bynum shoots close to 60 percent without a jump shot which is what it is all about, Offensive efficiency. NBA.com: (http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Scoring.jsp?league=00&season=22009&conf=OVERALL&position=0&splitType=9&splitScope=PER48&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1)

Jefferson is 35th in points per 48 minutes Bynum is 36th despite averaging 4.9 less shots per 48 minutes.

In 08-09 Jefferson averaged 1.2 points per shot attempt, Bynum averaged 1.4 points per shot attempt. Here is the efficiency rankings Bynum is 6th, Jefferson is 11th.

Jefferson is a slightly better rebounder though. He is right around 14/per 48 minutes over the past 2 years while Bynum is at 13.1/per 48.

Basically, anyway you spin the numbers per 48 minutes Bynum is clearly a better player. At the time of the trade Bynum was an unknown while Jefferson looked to be a very good player in the making so the trade at the time was fine. If we fast forward to today there is no way the Lakers trade Bynum for Jefferson.

[RainMaker]

I know what they were when he got hurt. They were 13-10 after Christmas. They had a strong month of January and were turning into a decent team.

You are using stats from this season. Jefferson is still recovering from major knee surgery. Look at last season before the knee surgery. He was 6th in the league in efficiency ahead of guys like Gasol.

To compare players using shooing percentage who play different styles and have different roles is ridiculous. I'll use your logic for determining a better offensive player.

Kendrick Perkins shoots 64% from the field. . Dwyane Wade shoots 43%. Perkins does that without a jump shot which is what it's all about, Offensive efficiency.

Perkins averages 1.63 points per shot attempt while Wade averages 1.29 points per shot attempt.

Does this mean Kendrick Perkins is a better offensive player than Wade?

[jbergey22]

Is Jefferson a point forward or how is his role much different than Bynum? They are post players that get rebounds and block shots as far as I know. The only difference is Jefferson plays more minutes and is more of the focus on offense because the Timberwolves suck.

Wade and Perkins are not comparable in anyway what so ever.

You'd be hard pressed to find 1 other person that would say the Timberwolves were an average to an above average team at ANY point last year FYI.

You can use whatever stats you want to use per 48 minutes. It doesnt really matter to me and you will see what you are missing.

[DaddyTorgo]

I know what they were when he got hurt. They were 13-10 after Christmas. They had a strong month of January and were turning into a decent team.

You are using stats from this season. Jefferson is still recovering from major knee surgery. Look at last season before the knee surgery. He was 6th in the league in efficiency ahead of guys like Gasol.

To compare players using shooing percentage who play different styles and have different roles is ridiculous. I'll use your logic for determining a better offensive player.

Kendrick Perkins shoots 64% from the field. . Dwyane Wade shoots 43%. Perkins does that without a jump shot which is what it's all about, Offensive efficiency.

Perkins averages 1.63 points per shot attempt while Wade averages 1.29 points per shot attempt.

Does this mean Kendrick Perkins is a better offensive player than Wade?

well played sir :D

[MrBug708]

Before Gasol came back, Bynum was averaging 19.4 and 11.4, since we are throwing out limited samples

[jbergey22]

Thanks Bug,

Anyway Ive had enough of this discussion. I am fairly certain Bynum would be an absolute stud on the Timberwolves however we wont know this because it wont happen.

[RainMaker]

Is Jefferson a point forward or how is his role much different than Bynum? They are post players that get rebounds and block shots as far as I know. The only difference is Jefferson plays more minutes and is more of the focus on offense because the Timberwolves suck.

Wade and Perkins are not comparable in anyway what so ever.

You'd be hard pressed to find 1 other person that would say the Timberwolves were an average to an above average team at ANY point last year FYI.

You can use whatever stats you want to use per 48 minutes. It doesnt really matter to me and you will see what you are missing.
The primary difference is that Al Jefferson is a shot creator. You can feed him the ball and he will consistently get a good shot in the post.

I don't understand why being the focus of the offense is a negative. Jefferson was seeing double and triple teaming in the post on virtually every time he touched the ball. They had no other option and he was still able to get shots up and score with efficiency.

Bynum works in an offense where he gets virtually no attention from the defense. 20% of all his shots were dunks (as opposed . He benefits greatly from having Kobe, Gasol, and Odom draw the attention of the defense and leave him unguarded.

I think a lot of people would have considered the T-Wolves an average team before Jefferson's injury. They were beating bad teams and losing to good ones. They were 13-10 after Christmas. Pretty average in my book.

[jbergey22]

I don't understand why being the focus of the offense is a negative. Jefferson was seeing double and triple teaming in the post on virtually every time he touched the ball. They had no other option and he was still able to get shots up and score with efficiency.



It is not a negative. But you cant say Jefferson is a better player just because he scores more points.

They are very similiar players in different situations. Bynum is 2 inches taller and a better defender that is why I like him as a player more than Jefferson.

In reality neither of them are good enough to be the focus of the offense however the wolves dont have a choice.

Anyway, new topic. This is all about what ifs and if thats.

[DaddyTorgo]

It is not a negative. But you cant say Jefferson is a better player just because he scores more points.

They are very similiar players in different situations. Bynum is 2 inches taller and a better defender that is why I like him as a player more than Jefferson.

In reality neither of them are good enough to be the focus of the offense however the wolves dont have a choice.

Anyway, new topic. This is all about what ifs and if thats.

not even that - it's about opinions. you like bynum over jefferson...rainmaker likes jefferson over bynum. the two of you don't necessarily need to agree on that

[jbergey22]

not even that - it's about opinions. you like bynum over jefferson...rainmaker likes jefferson over bynum. the two of you don't necessarily need to agree on that

I can agree to this:)

On another note. Is it just me or does it seem like Deng and Noah are the only two that care about winning games for the Bulls this year?

I was expecting Rose to step up but he seems to be taking a back seat for some reason.

With that said I see Rose is having a great game tonight.

[Chief Rum]

As the lone Clips fan I am aware of on this board, just want to say I'm decently optimistic about the team's play of late. Beating the Sixers tonight, they are now 12-14. Had they not blown a huge lead against the Knicks Friday night, they would have been .500.

IMO, that's pretty good, considering they haven't had even one regular season minute of Blake Griffin yet.

I still think it's possible for the Clips to achieve those preseason predictions of making the playoffs this year. That might mean first round obliteration at the hands of the Lakers, Nuggets, Spurs, Suns, etc., but, hey, baby steps.

[Warhammer]

Part of the reason why Memphis did not go for the Jefferson trade was the perception that he was soft. After Pau, they wanted to toughen the team up. They also had a good number of #2/#3 guys they were trying to develop. They wanted muscle up front, and while Odom was good, he was old for what they were looking to do.

[RainMaker]

Bulls blew a 35 point lead at home tonight to the Kings. I am done.

[bhlloy]

If Rose continues on the path he's headed down right now (slightly above average PG on a pretty bad team, showing zero leadership skills) where does he rank in terms of biggest draft disappointments of all time?

Of course there have been bigger busts - he achieved more in his rookie season than Olowokandi or Kwame ever did (and probably half the first overall picks in history). But just in terms of him being the local kid, the savior of the franchise and expected to be a true superstar who would lead the Bulls back to the league elite, things certainly don't seem to be panning out that way. Or am I completely nuts to write off a 19 year old kid in his second season in the league? He just doesn't seem to have the temperament that many other great players have.

Kings tie the all-time comeback record tonight. Wow - if this doesn't get Vinny fired I don't know what will.

[RainMaker]

I think it's still early. He shows signs of greatness at times. He has the worst coach in the NBA developing him. The team doesn't run plays and has no flow on offense. Put a veteran coach like Doug Collins in and he's an All-Star. The kid just has too much raw ability.

[whomario]

I agree that this isn´t entirely on him, not even close. I´l give him a pass until he gets to play under a different coach.
On the other hand Sacramento is a fun team to watch. Really deep, Evans with one hell of a rookie campaign right now (20/5/5 on a 50% team) and a lot of young, energetic players, very deep bench (as witnessed last night) and all that with Martin and Garcia out. Although at this point i am sceptical as to how they are better with Martin back and being again the focal point of the offense despite him lacking any sort of passing ability.

In other news : How about JJ Redick as the Magic´s 6th man more or less ? Seriously, he´s definitely found a role. Very impressed by how he put his head down and just worked himself into that role on the Magic.

[Malificent]

In other news : How about JJ Redick as the Magic´s 6th man more or less ? Seriously, he´s definitely found a role. Very impressed by how he put his head down and just worked himself into that role on the Magic.

As a Duke grad, that was the thing I was most impressed with by Redick when he was in college - he started with a great 3p shot and not a lot else. As each year progressed, he developed something new. One year, a midrange jumper - the next year the drive to the basket. And every year he improved his defense. He's a hard worker - always has been. It doesn't surprise me that he's still working to improve - he'll never be an NBA star, but he can fit well in the role he's in now.

[DaddyTorgo]

yay redick!

[RainMaker]

I guess my biggest concern with Rose is that he's real passive. Just doesn't have that killer instinct that most of the stars have. He's not one of those guys who's going to run to the middle and demand the ball and tell everyone to get the fuck out of the way. Maybe that will change with time, but I don't know if you can really change a personality. Ultimately he may be best suited as a 2nd best player on a top team and not the leader that many in Chicago had hoped.

I really think he needs a good mentor who will push him more. Byron Scott or even Avery Johnson crossed my mind as guys who will push him and mold his mindset better. It's not an effort issue with Rose, it's an psychological one. Everytime I get a little down on him he'll do some unbelievable in a game that will make me remember why Chicago has so much promise in him. The other night against Atlanta he did a crossover that literally made the defender fall down on his ass. I've seen it a dozen times last year.

[bhlloy]

Yeah that was kind of my point. I don't doubt his talent for a minute but he's shown absolutely nothing to suggest he's a leader or wants the ball in his hands when the going gets tough. For a PG and the #1 overall pick that's not exactly ideal, especially with all the extra baggage he carries in Chicago.

[Neuqua]

Rose is doing all he possibly can to bring the Bulls back against the Knicks tonight.

[Neon_Chaos]

Sweet jeez. The Bulls do suck this year, don't they?

[jbergey22]

Sweet jeez. The Bulls do suck this year, don't they?

Theyonly have 3 players that are worth a crap and 1 of them cant score. Rose, Deng, Noah. They also dont really have a go to scorer. Its not a proven great method to have your PG as your go to scorer.

Gibson appears he will be a decent player.

Salmons and Miller need to head back to the Kings. I believe Salmons actually hurts the team by playing he is so bad and he wont stop shooting.

They better fix this fast if they want any chance of getting Dwayne Wade.

[Coffee Warlord]

Theyonly have 3 players that are worth a crap and 1 of them cant score. Rose, Deng, Noah. They also dont really have a go to scorer. Its not a proven great method to have your PG as your go to scorer.

They better fix this fast if they want any chance of getting Dwayne Wade.

They knew going into this season it was gonna be a rough one, though nobody would ever admit it. Which is also why I think Del Negro is going to last the full season (or close to it) -- they're just waiting till 2010, when they can get real players and a real coach.

[whomario]

so, the blazers with yet another injury. Now Przybilla goes down with what apears to be a long term knee injurie (read about ruptured patella tendon) .

Oden - Out
Batum - Out
Fernandez - Out
Outlaw - Out
Mills - Out
Przybilla - Out

Batum and Fernandez might be back by early February, Outlaw maybe by March.
That´s now 5 members of their supposed 9/10 man rotation.

[larrymcg421]

Boston 38, Orlando 27

At the half. Is that right?

[Big Fo]

Awful offense from Orlando today.

Classy Laker fans throwing water bottles and foam fingers onto the court smh

[stevew]

The Lakers showed a lot of mock outrage out there today. I thought it was a soccer game, with all the pussy flopping and crying.

[MrBug708]

While I appreciate being able to watch the Lakers on Christmas, hopefully that flop of a game will get them an off day on Christmas next year

[Karlifornia]

While I appreciate being able to watch the Lakers on Christmas, hopefully that flop of a game will get them an off day on Christmas next year

That ain't happening until Kobe retires, and even then I can't say I see it happening unless they're absolutely awful.

[Chief Rum]

I'm sure no one outside of the Boston and LA areas was watching, but there was a terrific, fun game going on Staples tonight. Clips ended up pulling out a huge win for them over the Celtics on a last 0.1 sec shot (more or less) by Baron Davis.

Strangely enough, the Clips have now won two in a row at home against the Celtics.

No matter what side you were on, if you were watching you woulda said it was a fun basketball game to watch.

[Neuqua]

Vinny's gone.

[Chief Rum]

Vinny's gone.

It's official? I heard earlier today that it was reported he pretty much was, but the Bulls wanted to horn in on a replacement first.

[Neuqua]

Yeah, they won't announce it until they have a replacement in place but its all a matter of time now.

[rjolley]

Looks like it's official that he's out, just not official when he's out.

Sources: Chicago Bulls wait on replacement to ax coach - ESPN Chicago (http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=4774723)

I'll be glad to see him out. I thought it was an odd choice, but hoped they knew something no one else did. The possible replacements are interesting. Out of the people who were recently NBA coaches, Byron Scott would be a good move. Seems he was able to help develop a young athletic PG who played one year in college into one of the best PGs in the league. Maybe he can do the same with Rose.

[bhlloy]

How is this in any way better than getting rid of him and having an interim coach for the meantime? If he knows he's fired, the players know he's fired and everybody else in the organization knows he's fired, what possible good could it do having him around and pretending to run the team as usual?

Do they think they will be losing leverage with all those unemployed coaches out there if they look desperate or something?

[RainMaker]

How is this in any way better than getting rid of him and having an interim coach for the meantime? If he knows he's fired, the players know he's fired and everybody else in the organization knows he's fired, what possible good could it do having him around and pretending to run the team as usual?

Do they think they will be losing leverage with all those unemployed coaches out there if they look desperate or something?
This is the Bulls. Logic doesn't work in their equation.

[whomario]

so the Rockets and T-Mac are aparently all but ready to part from each other... Not suprising since Adelmann never gave any indication he wanted him back, then held him out of the lineup longer than propably nescessary and then came up with the elaborate plan to sub him in after 4,5 minutes to play the rest of the first quarter and then not to return no matter what.

McGrady actually went along with it and did not bitch about it. That after doing this for 6 games he stated that he was ready for more to me is ok, certainly not iverson-stupid (we need a catchy word involving AIs name for player coming back from injury or new to teams that bitch about it after 3 or less games).

Anyways, Adelmann basically took this as an excuse to finally just admit that he doesn´t want him.

Just strange that they brought him all the way back from that injury, than let a bit of excitement built by playing him and then pull the plug. Also not even trying to boost his value by actually letting him play a bit longer.

And yes, i´m fully aware he looked very subpar out there, but even while not being a big fan of his it´s pretty obvious that 7 minutes isn´t exactly what he´s used to and that + coming back after that long a layoff (+ the whole having been seriously injured thing) isn´t exactly ideal to get back into a rythm.

I am pretty sure this is a good thing for the Rockets, but still there was a part of me wishing they´d really work him back and he´d repay the favour with good games come playoff time. Wishfull thinking i guess :(

[MikeVic]

I was looking up standings since I was curious what the Raptors' position is. I can't believe a 12-17 team is the #8 seed in the East!

[stevew]

Mike Brown is starting to show signs of competency. The rest of the NBA should be worried. I'm just going to chill and try to enjoy the next 6 months of basketball. Whatever happens after that is probably gonna suck.

[RainMaker]

Looks like it's official that he's out, just not official when he's out.

Sources: Chicago Bulls wait on replacement to ax coach - ESPN Chicago (http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=4774723)

I'll be glad to see him out. I thought it was an odd choice, but hoped they knew something no one else did. The possible replacements are interesting. Out of the people who were recently NBA coaches, Byron Scott would be a good move. Seems he was able to help develop a young athletic PG who played one year in college into one of the best PGs in the league. Maybe he can do the same with Rose.
The way the Bulls have handled this is an embarassment and I actually feel sorry for Vinny Del Negro. So reports come out that he's going to be fired and they are waiting on a replacement. People in the organization are too pussy to comment on it. Then today Gar Forman (who is just a cardboard cutout put in there so that Paxson can make the decisions because Paxson has think skin) gives vague answers that can be construed as Vinny being given a chance to turn things around to him being out the door soon.

Seriously, if you want a guy fired, fire him. Put in an interim on the staff till you have a suitable replacement. Letting a guy hang out there like a lame duck is an insult to the guy no matter how poor of a coach he is. If I was a big name head coach, there is no fucking chance in hell I look at Chicago as an option. Dealing with these low class front office people makes the organization look real bad.

Now they've won two games and looked decent (mind you it's against New Orleans and Indiana). The upcoming 7 games are not all that tough outside of one at home against Orlando. So lets say they go 5-2 in that stretch. Does that buy him more time? I just don't get what the fuck they are doing.

[whomario]

weird sequence at the end of the very entertaining Warriors-Celtics game a couple nights ago :

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ehC0ZLJbABY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ehC0ZLJbABY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

fast forward to about 4.10 to see the most amazing inbounds pass by Radmanovich :eek:

[whomario]

now Lamarcus Aldridge goes down with an ankle injury, what the hell is hapenning in Portland ? (edit : aparently it´s "only" a medium sprain, but still ...)

crazy game winning 3 by Anderson Varejao (!!) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkRanEvKZus

Lebron had an absolute monster game with 48/10/6 on 16-23 shooting :eek: Was highly entertaining, glad i stayed awake and decided on this one.

Other random observations :

- Yi looks very promising for New Jersey. The guy has some serious (scoring) skill and mobility, basically looks just like advertised before the draft. Real explosive athlete, too. Injured himself early in the season, now came back a couple games ago scoring 22, 17, 29 and 22. Nets still only won 1 of those 4 and are now an epic 3-29 ...

- Memphis now almost at 50% at 15-16 and they lost 8 of their first 9 games of the season. Since then they are 14-7. That´s a playoff calibre team. And shoot me now, but Zach Randolph looks great. Not just stats (24/14 in december) but he´s also moving the ball, running the floor at times and tries to stand in the way on defense. For him that´s a giant step up.
His stats are allways there because he´s just a gifted player with great instincts on offense, though his last 6 are kind of ridiculous : 28/17 on 57% shooting.
Grizzlies are the best rebounding team in the league (Portland falling back now with both centers out obviously) , a whopping +5 and 14 offensive boards a game. Gasol also still a double double with 15/10.
The one thing they miss is a legit option off the bench to go with that starting 5.

Oh, and Steve Nash got some humour :

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OhUvJElZ_QY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OhUvJElZ_QY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[whomario]

How about the now 20-13 Rockets ? That game last night against Dallas was awesome (just finished watching the replay) .

22nd in FG%
15th in 3P%
22nd in FT attempted
1st in getting blocked (a whopping 7 times a game !)


21st in oponents FG percentage
15th in oposing 3P%
29th in blocked shots

so you have team that plays inefficient offense (for the exact same number of PPG the Celtics and Cavs need 7 less FGAs) and is below average defensively in terms of raw team stats, yet is 20-13 ?
They aren´t a good rebounding team either (17th in diferential) and are average at forcing turnovers (13th)

Their 9 man rotation :

-A starting PG with 5 assist to 3 TOs and 0.7 steals who still is well below average in terms of passing ability in vision (almost all his assists are easy passes to open shooters after drawing a help defender) and i shooting at an ok-above average rate (42%, 39% , ok Points per shot or similar stats)

-A starting SG taking the most shots and 3 point shots on the team despite shooting 37% from the field, 31% from 3, 65% from 3 and just topping 1.0 Points Per Shot. Who also does not play good defense at all, way too much gambdling.

- A starting SF averaging 8.5 PPG in over 33 minutes shooting 42%.

- A starting PF who shoots just 2 FTs a game resulting in a very pedestrian PPS and blocked 10 shots all year

- A starting C who averages 5/6, shoots 1 FT a game (high comedy, too) and blocked 13 shots all year.

- A 6th man PF who is their best inside scorer but averages 0.7 assists (and thus doesn´t open things up much)

- A backup PG who shoots 40% and 31% from 3

- A backup SG shooting 41% and 33% from 3 while just topping 1.0 Points Per Shot

- A backup PF shooting 42% and averaging 3 boards in 15 minutes.



Obviously i made an effort to pick the weaknesses, but it´s not like those are sidenotes but key stats.

So the fact that they are 20-13 is beyong incredible, statistically speaking.

What i´m saying : Watch a Rockets game if you want to see what "better than the sum of it´s parts" means in terms of a basketball team.

that should meet my homerism quota for the next week or so :)

OH, and a soon-to-be 36 year old Nash is posting basically the best stats of his career ... 18.4 PPG, 11.2 APG in 33 minutes. Shooting 54% from the field (best among perimeter players), 43% from 3 and 94% from the line (will likely be his 4th 50/40/90 season, since the 3 point line was put in this was reached only 6 other times, with only Bird doing it twice) and lis very close to leading the whole league in a couple advanced shooting statistics anfd does lead everybody in assist percentage and in offensive rating .
Steve Nash NBA & ABA Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html)

[MrBug708]

Kobe.

[whomario]

stats be damned (which aren´t that great for him in the clutch), i would not want him on that other team with the game on the line :eek:

In other news : So Nate Robinson collects 14 DNP-CDs and doesn´t play for a month, gets his name called late in the first yesterday and goes on to score 41/6/8 on 18-24 shooting.
Say what you want about him not having a legit role in the NBA and basically being detrimentary as much as he´s helping with his explosivness (and i do say that) : The guy is an amazing competitor and a truely special talent being the scorer he is at that size.

New York 10-6 in december and January and at now 13-20 half a game out of the 8th spot and 1 win behind 7th seed chicago. Only in the East ...

The Kings looked great against the Lakers, Omri Casspi baby. And Hawes having his best game of the year against Gasol/Bynum.

The Lakers bench is awful thin. Yeah, i realize Artest is out and Odom would be coming off the bench but still all they have is 2 ok backup PGs and 2 shooters that aren´t shooting well and are useless in every other facet of the game.

Kobe´s last 10 games : 37 PPG on 50% shooting. Um, yeah well ...


Blazers update : Steve Blake in the hospital for pneumonia and expected to miss "at least a few games". What in the world ?
Blazers now down to 8 available players including Patty Mills who is just coming back from major surgery in the offseason himself...

Against the Warriors they will be without :

Oden
Aldridge
Przybilla
Batum
Fernandez
Outlaw
Blake

That´s 7 players from last year 8 man rotation. Unbelievable ...

And they are 21-13 winning 7 of their last 9, impressive job.

[jbergey22]

Thanks for the in depth analysis of the Rockets whomario. I have been wondering how that team is winning games because their doesnt appear to be much overall talent on that squad. Your stats pretty much equate to that.

It appears they play very well as a team. They seem to have a player that gets hot and carries the offensive burden in most of their games. I can understand why a guy like McGrady who needs the ball on offense 50 percent of the time would actually hurt the overall team philosophy they have.

Its actually quite amazing that they can play as good of defense as they do with an undersized point guard and no shot blocking threat in the middle. I dont watch a lot of Rockets game but Id imagine Battier must always guard the best wingman on the opposing team(James, Kobe, Ellis) whether he is a 2 or a 3?

[Chief Rum]

stats be damned (which aren´t that great for him in the clutch), i would not want him on that other team with the game on the line :eek:

In other news : So Nate Robinson collects 14 DNP-CDs and doesn´t play for a month, gets his name called late in the first yesterday and goes on to score 41/6/8 on 18-24 shooting.
Say what you want about him not having a legit role in the NBA and basically being detrimentary as much as he´s helping with his explosivness (and i do say that) : The guy is an amazing competitor and a truely special talent being the scorer he is at that size.

New York 10-6 in december and January and at now 13-20 half a game out of the 8th spot and 1 win behind 7th seed chicago. Only in the East ...

The Kings looked great against the Lakers, Omri Casspi baby. And Hawes having his best game of the year against Gasol/Bynum.

The Lakers bench is awful thin. Yeah, i realize Artest is out and Odom would be coming off the bench but still all they have is 2 ok backup PGs and 2 shooters that aren´t shooting well and are useless in every other facet of the game.

Kobe´s last 10 games : 37 PPG on 50% shooting. Um, yeah well ...


Blazers update : Steve Blake in the hospital for pneumonia and expected to miss "at least a few games". What in the world ?
Blazers now down to 8 available players including Patty Mills who is just coming back from major surgery in the offseason himself...

Against the Warriors they will be without :

Oden
Aldridge
Przybilla
Batum
Fernandez
Outlaw
Blake

That´s 7 players from last year 8 man rotation. Unbelievable ...

And they are 21-13 winning 7 of their last 9, impressive job.

It was slightly embarrassing that the Clips lost to this injury-rattled team on Wednesday, even if it was at the Rose Garden. I am hoping the Clips get some measure of "revenge" on Monday.

[Neon_Chaos]

Video of the Kobe shot.

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/l3Z7umFXThk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/l3Z7umFXThk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

[jbergey22]

That was some impressive d by the Kings. They didnt help out so Kobe gets a WIDE open look as time expires. I guess they deserve the result that happened.

Also, Im not sure if I am buying some of the stats the say Kobe is far below his career averages in "clutch" situations. He has had 3 game winners in the past month and I can think of numerous times where he has bailed the Lakers out. On the other hand I can think of very few times when he has failed with the game on the line.

IMO he is right there with MJ as the best "clutch" performers in my NBA history. Mid 80s on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

On the other hand I can think of very few times when he has failed with the game on the line.

But do the ones where he fails become the lead story on SportsCenter?

[jbergey22]

But do the ones where he fails become the lead story on SportsCenter?

No but they generally show it as it does seem rare. And since the Lakers rarely lose these days its doesnt happen very often that he is even in these situations.

Like a couple of weeks ago against the Bucks when he missed the shot to win the game in regular time and came back in OT to win the game.

I remember Kobe as a rookie in a playoff game against the Rockets (I believe) shooting up a forced air ball with a chance to win the game. At that point I thought he was just another flash in the pan rookie that didnt have what it took. Hes come a long way since then:)

[Neuqua]

Derrick Rose apparently reads FOFC.

[RainMaker]

Was there last night to see the Thunder play the Bulls. I'm becoming a big fan of OKC and rooting for them out West. What a fun team to watch and Durant is a stud. I love how he doesn't force shorts and plays within the flow of the game. Westbrook is also a stud and just carved us up. Harden looked good too and Eric Maynor hit a couple threes off the bench.

I don't know how long they have that core locked up for (Durant, Westbrook, Green, Thabo, etc), but if they can continue to gel, they're going to be real dangerous in the next year or two.

[Groundhog]

Patrick Mills dominated the NBDL in two games and got his call-up against the Clippers. Shot 0-3 but handed out 2 assists in limited minutes, and that makes 4 Aussies who have hit the court in the NBA this year, the most ever. I'd imagine Brad Newley is a good chance to make the Rockets next season, given how he's played in Europe.

[sooner333]

I don't know how long they have that core locked up for (Durant, Westbrook, Green, Thabo, etc), but if they can continue to gel, they're going to be real dangerous in the next year or two.

This is Durant and Green's third season, so they have them for at least next year and then restricted free agency. Westbrook is a second-year guy, so add another year. Thabo signed an extension this year, for four more years through 2013-2014.

They all like to play together and they really like basketball. I hope they'll stick around here for awhile even though there's not as much glitz and glamour in OKC. It would be hard to keep all of them, but hopefully at least two of the big three will be able to stay with bigger contracts. Also, the team can improve in FA this year with a bunch of open cap space.

It's been really fun to watch this team grow up. Only a few guys remain from the Seattle days (I think it might be just Durant, Green, and Collison) and Presti has made some pretty good moves (Sefalosha for a late first rounder, Maynor for free). I like their future for sure.

[Eaglesfan27]

Gilbert Arenas was just suspended indefinitely.

[MikeVic]

What about that other guy?

[whomario]

Was Crittendon actually pulling a Gun like said in the initial report ? Anyway, Arenas wouldn´t have been suspended (yet) but Arenas is an idiot, the reason he got suspended now (instead of waiting for law enforcement to complete their evaluation) is that he made a gesture of "shooting" Crittendon with his Finger before yesterdays game. The guy just has no idea when to shut the hell up or leave an issue alone. Seriously, this may be seen as harsh by people, but if serious charges like that are out there the last thing you do is make a stupid gesture like that :banghead:
So if Crittendon is more than just the recipient of that "bad joke" than he´ll likely get a suspension as soon as the legal process is done.

Stern statement :

NBA.com: David Stern statement on Arenas suspension (http://www.nba.com/2010/news/01/06/arenas.suspension/index.html)

"Although it is clear that the actions of Mr. Arenas will ultimately result in a substantial suspension, and perhaps worse, his ongoing conduct has led me to conclude that he is not currently fit to take the court in an NBA game. Accordingly, I am suspending Mr. Arenas indefinitely, without pay, effective immediately pending the completion of the investigation by the NBA."

suspension for the rest of this season and next maybe ?

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

The real interesting question is do the Wizards try to void the contract, and are they successful?

[RainMaker]

Arenas is a fucking moron. As whomario said, he went out last night and mocked the whole thing by making gun gestures at other players. Not only that, but he made a joke of the whole situation for a week on Twitter. With $90 million on the line, he should have apologized and shut his mouth. Now he really pissed off Stern and I wouldn't be surprised if they went as far as to not allow him back in the league ever.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0105/life_g_arenas01_576.jpg

[larrymcg421]

Amazing plays at the end of regulation in the Celtics-Heat game...


<object width="425" height="344">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JJl79jQ2Iow&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object><object width="425" height="344">


</object>

[DaddyTorgo]

fuck - i knew i'd miss something falling asleep on the couch at 8:30 with the game on

[Radii]

Damn, that's incredible.

[Chief Rum]

And in other NBA news, the winner tonight of the battle of LA is the...




CLIPPERS!!!

[jbergey22]

And in other NBA news, the winner tonight of the battle of LA is the...




CLIPPERS!!!

Theyd be 7th in the East. Eric Gordon played some nice defense on Kobe tonight other than when Kobe was on fire in the 3rd.

[Chief Rum]

Theyd be 7th in the East. Eric Gordon played some nice defense on Kobe tonight other than when Kobe was on fire in the 3rd.

Yup, and that's without a single minute yet from a rookie who was supposed to be head and shoulders better than current ROY candidate types like Tyreke Evans, Brandon Jennings and DeJuan Blair.

I can't wait to see Blake Griffin work his way into this lineup. The Clips are clicking nicely right now.

[jbergey22]

Yup, and that's without a single minute yet from a rookie who was supposed to be head and shoulders better than current ROY candidate types like Tyreke Evans, Brandon Jennings and DeJuan Blair.

I can't wait to see Blake Griffin work his way into this lineup. The Clips are clicking nicely right now.

It sure helps when Baron Davis is healthy and EG is back.

I am curious as to how they are going to get these 3 good PF/C's enough playing time when Blake comes back. Limiting Cambys minutes to keep him from getting injured is a good thing but he's also a player you want on the court at the end of a game.

[Chief Rum]

It sure helps when Baron Davis is healthy and EG is back.

I am curious as to how they are going to get these 3 good PF/C's enough playing time when Blake comes back. Limiting Cambys minutes to keep him from getting injured is a good thing but he's also a player you want on the court at the end of a game.

I think Thornton and Jordan's minutes will drop precipitously, as well as Craig Smith's. I also think you will see some "big" lineups, with Griffin playing the 3, against teams with threes that aren't particularly quick.

I think in the end, Kaman and Camby will still be seeing a lot of the same time they are now. It will be the backup minutes that will change.

Griffin has to be the one in there for those minutes, no doubt. That said, I like the upside of Jordan and Smith, and I think Thornton has been under-utilized by Dunleavy, so there's a downside coming to the return of Griffin.

[Ironhead]

Clippers v Grizzlies game just got stopped near the end of the 3rd quarter. There was an announcement up on the screen in the arena saying there was an emergency and everyone needed to evacuate.

Someone just twittered:
"Have been evacuated from the building in Memphis near end of 3Q. Fire trucks summoned. Smelled smoke as we left the arena.

Lisa Dillman via Twitter"

[Ironhead]

dola

Sounds like everything is under control and the game should resume in about 30 minutes.

[Groundhog]

Good thing Baron Davis got his triple double over with by the end of the 3rd Q then!

[sterlingice]

I wouldn't screen that stinker near an open flame, either ;)

SI

[DeToxRox]

Blake Griffin is having season ending knee surgery.

[whomario]

should be mentioned that it´s the same injury that just didn´t heal correctly.

So, would anyone blame a player for pulling a Francis/Yi to not have to be drafted to the Clippers ? First time it seems like they have a decent environment for a high draft pick and then he gets injured a whoile year.

Seriously, you should get double the normal salary if the Clips draft you ... ;)

The Lakers need to be really lucky with health to win it in the end, they are very thin and the starters have to carry a lot of the load and now injuries pile up.

With that win Memphis over 0.500 , when´s the last time this happened ?

That still is only good for 11th in the West btw ... (would be 5th in the East)

some funny stuff in the recent Kings-Nuggets game :

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HHk7gpEGkmI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HHk7gpEGkmI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

and some random highlight, Ian Mahinmi in his first game of the year not only offers 15/9, but also this amazing block-run-dunk sequence :

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6pm9-t8adDQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6pm9-t8adDQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

[Chief Rum]

should be mentioned that it´s the same injury that just didn´t heal correctly.

So, would anyone blame a player for pulling a Francis/Yi to not have to be drafted to the Clippers ? First time it seems like they have a decent environment for a high draft pick and then he gets injured a whoile year.

Seriously, you should get double the normal salary if the Clips draft you ... ;)

:( :banghead:

[whomario]

yeah, that was about my reaction as well... Seems to be a good kid, too.

Random player observation : David Lee has gotten, like, good. I mean, amazing.
Have you seen him play recently ? The guy has developed serious skills, puts the ball on the floor as well as any PF in the league, guys like odom included. Has a couple spin moves and jukes off the drible that are absolutely incredible. His mid range jumper has gotten very acurate (44% eFG on 47% jump shots, was like 35% on 29% last season) and is even starting to get effective off the drible, his range goes out to 20 feet, he passes the ball extremely well, has pretty good vision when double teamed on the move.
I mean, maybe i just lived under a tree but i am fairly certain that´s new stuff.
Really impressive and far from "just" being a energy/hustle guy, aproaching go-to-guy status very rapidly and definitely will get another shot at a big contract next offseason.
(raw stats : 19/11 for the year on 56% shooting)
f.e. would i take him over a guy like Boozer right about now.

San Antonio starts to get going really, Duncan has been amazing this year.
Now they beat the Thunder (wait, don´t laugh ! The Thunder are good this year) without Duncan and with Ginobili shooting 0-10 but making the play of the game in OT that ends up with Jefferson getting the game winning shot.
Dajuan Blair beating his way toward 28/21, beating his previous career highs by 10 in both categories .

Lakers beat Dallas depsite a tentative Bryant (11 shots only !) who still makes the biggest basket of the game.
Nowitzki with a vintage performance (31/16, no turnover, 15 points in the 4th) on his way to be the 34th player (1st european) to exceed 20000 career points.

Rockets beat the Timberwolves in triple-OT, Brooks plays 59 minutes and scores 43 points with only 1 TO.
Jefferson has 26/26.
Ridiculous buzzer beater from hal court to force the first OT by Brewer !

[RainMaker]

I'm kind of scared the Bulls will miss out on all the big name free agents next year and get desperate and max contract David Lee. I would agree though that he's becoming a real good player. The funny thing is that he's totally not built for D'antoni's offense and still playing great.

Dujuan Blair was the steal of the draft. I really wanted the Bulls to take him. Can't believe so many teams in the late 1st round/early 2nd round passed up on a guy who had reliable PF with built-in NBA build who can give you 15 minutes a night. The good news for Blair is that falling to the 2nd round means he can become restricted after his 2nd year and unrestricted after his 3rd year. Sometimes being a 2nd rounder has its benefits.

My own random thought is that I was looking at the standings and can't believe the Nets are 3-35.

[sterlingice]

Agreed on Blair. I knew he had injury issues but seeing what he did in college, I just don't get why teams with picks starting in the 20s didn't give him a look. Of course, the Spurs, who are great at making these sorts of moves scoop him up.

Fun game in Houston last night. Would have been brutal to lose.

SI

[Groundhog]

The Spurs have the best prospect scouts in all of the NBA by a longshot.

[RainMaker]

The problem is that most GMs think they have to draft a guy who will start and give them 35 minutes a night. Few draft by saying "this guy can step in right away and give us 15 minutes a night at a basement salary". The Rockets and Spurs have been the two best teams in the NBA at drafting smart over the years. They don't draft looking big but looking to fill minutes at a low price. If you can get 15 minutes a night out of a guy making $800,000, it leaves more money for pickups.

[whomario]

The problem is that most GMs think they have to draft a guy who will start and give them 35 minutes a night. Few draft by saying "this guy can step in right away and give us 15 minutes a night at a basement salary". The Rockets and Spurs have been the two best teams in the NBA at drafting smart over the years. They don't draft looking big but looking to fill minutes at a low price. If you can get 15 minutes a night out of a guy making $800,000, it leaves more money for pickups.

The Spurs don´t draft that way though, that doesn´t fit. They take high risk/high reward guys in positions where the risk doesn´t matter anymore. Blair and George Hill are their first College players this decade that did anything for them.

They drafted 10 College players from 00-09, other than Hill and Blair they have played exactly 3 games for the spurs (all by marcus williams), not much more in the NBA overall.
And heck, Hill wasn´t a conventional pick either coming from a small college.

EDIT : Malik Hairston played some 200 minutes so far in 2 seasons as well.

Their international scouting is what sets them apart. Ginobili, Parker (56th and 28th pick), guys like Udrih, Scola (not their fault he didn´t come over propably).
Splitter will likely come over next year and imo will be a 14/10 guy within 2 seasons.

Their international scouting is top notch still, and it´s not like drafting 25th-30th every year is a good spot to be in, but they sure as hell aren´t known for getting solid 15 MPG guys through the draft.

[whomario]

Jazz win a nice game, undrafted Rookie Sundiata Gaines (10 day contract) sinks the Cavs with a 3 at the buzzer, good one :)

How many 10 day contract guys hit game winners before ?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Jazz win a nice game, undrafted Rookie Sundiata Gaines (10 day contract) sinks the Cavs with a 3 at the buzzer, good one :)

How many 10 day contract guys hit game winners before ?

Not just an undrafted rookie, but one that graduated from UGA after the 07-08 season (he was the MVP of the SEC tourney that they shockingly won). From there to Italy to the D-League to getting cut from the Hawks in pre-season and back to the D-League ... and then he beats the Cavs.

Was the topic of considerable happiness on Athens sportstalk radio this morning.

[Ironhead]

Random player observation : David Lee has gotten, like, good. I mean, amazing.
Have you seen him play recently ? The guy has developed serious skills, puts the ball on the floor as well as any PF in the league, guys like odom included. Has a couple spin moves and jukes off the drible that are absolutely incredible. His mid range jumper has gotten very acurate (44% eFG on 47% jump shots, was like 35% on 29% last season) and is even starting to get effective off the drible, his range goes out to 20 feet, he passes the ball extremely well, has pretty good vision when double teamed on the move.
I mean, maybe i just lived under a tree but i am fairly certain that´s new stuff.
Really impressive and far from "just" being a energy/hustle guy, aproaching go-to-guy status very rapidly and definitely will get another shot at a big contract next offseason.
(raw stats : 19/11 for the year on 56% shooting)
f.e. would i take him over a guy like Boozer right about now.

I have watched almost all of the Knicks games this year. I was really rooting for Dave early in the season but he is starting to wear on me a bit. It almost seems as if the buzz about him possibly making the All-Star game is going to his head. He is starting to be more selfish on the court and argues with the officials everytime there is contact and no foul is called.

The thing that also tends to get glossed over with Lee is that he is a terrible, terrible defender. Forget that he is undersized for the center position. He just seems to have a low defensive IQ and will be a liability regardless of whether he plays at the 4 or the 5. Hell, look at him "guarding the basket" last night.

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/88BKvqlmA_4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/88BKvqlmA_4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Considering he is going to command anywhere from $10 to $12 million next year I am starting to wonder if he is worth keeping around. He could be a nice piece if the right players are around him but I am starting to hope the Knicks go in another direction.

[whomario]

what´s he supposed to do there ? Heck, that´s an athletic (yep, he is) 7 footer coming at him off the drible.

I get that he´s asubpar defender, but that play isn´t exactly a good example.

Imo he´d be ok with a shotblocker next to him.

[whomario]

few more random sentences.

Blazers showing tremendous resilience. Blake and Fernandez are back, but they are still without any Center and now Roy is out ... Yet they beat the Magic and are at 25-16 right now.

Mavs beat the Thunder thanks to some great clutch play by Nowitzki.
Durant strong as usual, but he really needs to get someone to give him some pointers about passing the ball. Propably the worst passer among the top 10 or 15 perimeter scorers. Very shaky technique and terrible recognition of double teaming. Yeah, he´s asked to do a whole lot and really attacks the basket but he´s just not a good passer at all at this point.

a nice, albeit kind of unstructured, piece on Nowitzki on yahoo : Dirk Nowitzki keeps rolling along - Ball Don't Lie - NBA Blog - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Dirk-Nowitzki-keeps-rolling-along?urn=nba,213937#remaining-content)

[Chief Rum]

No Thornton, no Kaman, of course no Griffin. But the Clips almost beat the Cavs at home.

So ends one of the worst weeks for the franchise in some time, and that's saying something, considering it's the Clippers. This might be the week the Clips went from potential playoff contenders to dispirited long shots.

[whomario]

Bobcats are 8-2 in their last 10 and 3 games ahead of 9th place right now, nice :) Gerald Wallace still averaging 11.5 rebounds a game to go with his 18 PPG :eek:
Stephen Jackson´s january stats : 26/6/4 on 49% shooting (8 games)

Memphis wins 8th straight at home against the spurs, at now 21-18 still only in 10th place. Phoenix is struggling big time ...
The West playoff race is promising to be damn intense, 11th place New Orleans only 2 wins behind No6 Phoenix (or 4 behind No4 San Antonio or 5 behind No2 Dallas)
Durant scores 36 points on 14-18 shooting, whoa.

[RainMaker]

No Thornton, no Kaman, of course no Griffin. But the Clips almost beat the Cavs at home.

So ends one of the worst weeks for the franchise in some time, and that's saying something, considering it's the Clippers. This might be the week the Clips went from potential playoff contenders to dispirited long shots.
I've been watching the Cavs a lot lately and I have to say, I don't think they are that great. Yes they'll be a top seed but I see no guarantee of them getting past Orlando or Boston. I even think the Hawks could give them a series. They are just not a good half court team and Boston for instance is great at defending in the half court. Shaq adds another player who can't run with Lebron. I think they are worse than they were last season.

[RainMaker]

The Spurs don´t draft that way though, that doesn´t fit. They take high risk/high reward guys in positions where the risk doesn´t matter anymore. Blair and George Hill are their first College players this decade that did anything for them.

They drafted 10 College players from 00-09, other than Hill and Blair they have played exactly 3 games for the spurs (all by marcus williams), not much more in the NBA overall.
And heck, Hill wasn´t a conventional pick either coming from a small college.

EDIT : Malik Hairston played some 200 minutes so far in 2 seasons as well.

Their international scouting is what sets them apart. Ginobili, Parker (56th and 28th pick), guys like Udrih, Scola (not their fault he didn´t come over propably).
Splitter will likely come over next year and imo will be a 14/10 guy within 2 seasons.

Their international scouting is top notch still, and it´s not like drafting 25th-30th every year is a good spot to be in, but they sure as hell aren´t known for getting solid 15 MPG guys through the draft.
Yeah, you're right about that. I gave more emphasis to the last two seasons. I don't think Hill was ever seen as one of those high reward guys because he just didn't have the raw skills to do that. I think he was always projected to be a backup. I guess the risk was that he played at a small school.

The other big one I keep thinking of is Udrih who was a pretty key guy in the Spurs championship run. Gave them a strong 15 minutes a night and was one of the better backup point guards in the league.

[Chief Rum]

I've been watching the Cavs a lot lately and I have to say, I don't think they are that great. Yes they'll be a top seed but I see no guarantee of them getting past Orlando or Boston. I even think the Hawks could give them a series. They are just not a good half court team and Boston for instance is great at defending in the half court. Shaq adds another player who can't run with Lebron. I think they are worse than they were last season.

So you're saying we can't even take heart from a moral victory over a supposed title contender?

Swell! Thanks for contributing, Rain.

[RainMaker]

So you're saying we can't even take heart from a moral victory over a supposed title contender?

Swell! Thanks for contributing, Rain.
Where did I say that? Cleveland is still one of the best teams in the league.

Shall we avoid commenting on teams that the Clippers play so your feelings don't get hurt? If it cheers you up, the win against Boston was impressive as they are the best road team in the East (probably the best team too).

[RainMaker]

This is Durant and Green's third season, so they have them for at least next year and then restricted free agency. Westbrook is a second-year guy, so add another year. Thabo signed an extension this year, for four more years through 2013-2014.

They all like to play together and they really like basketball. I hope they'll stick around here for awhile even though there's not as much glitz and glamour in OKC. It would be hard to keep all of them, but hopefully at least two of the big three will be able to stay with bigger contracts. Also, the team can improve in FA this year with a bunch of open cap space.

It's been really fun to watch this team grow up. Only a few guys remain from the Seattle days (I think it might be just Durant, Green, and Collison) and Presti has made some pretty good moves (Sefalosha for a late first rounder, Maynor for free). I like their future for sure.
Been following them more and more. Just a real fun team to watch. I'm surprised no one has brought up Durant's name in the MVP conversation. If they were based in a major city I'd bet everyone would be gushing over him. The only knock on his game is he seems a bit careless with the ball.

Saw Hollinger write that they play much better when Green and Durant are not on the court at the same time. Wonder if they'll try to seperate the two a little more going down the stretch.

[Groundhog]

I was having a convo yesterday about who you'd rather start your team with - Durant or Carmelo.

Tough choice IMO. I think Durant is a little more rounded, but Carmelo is one of the best scorers in the NBA and is probably the most clutch guy in the league to boot. I think I'd go with Durant, but I might change my mind tomorrow.

[RainMaker]

I'd probably say Durant because his height is such an advantage and creates horrible mismatches. I also think he'll add on some more weight in the coming years which will make him even tougher.

The biggest might be off-the-court issues which Anthony has a few while Durant has been squeaky clean so far from what I know.

[TroyF]

I was having a convo yesterday about who you'd rather start your team with - Durant or Carmelo.

Tough choice IMO. I think Durant is a little more rounded, but Carmelo is one of the best scorers in the NBA and is probably the most clutch guy in the league to boot. I think I'd go with Durant, but I might change my mind tomorrow.

As a die hard Nuggets fan, I'd hate to make this call.

Why Melo deserves to win that:

1) He can score from anywhere. Post, three, FT line, outside, inside, on the break. There isn't a way to score that Melo isn't A+ at.

2) Incredibly clutch player.

3) Very good man on man defender when he wants to be. Not at all a good help defender.

4) He's a vastly underrated passer. His passing rating on 82games is a 7.9, Durant is a 2.8. (Kobe is 8.3, lebron 11.5, Wade 8.6 for comparison)

Why Durant deserves it:

1) As the debate is close, all of the age, height type questions favor Durant. Four years younger, an inch taller with a much wider wingspan, and still has upside.

2) Has a much better feel for the game. A better IQ.

3) Those long arms make him a better help defender now and probably a better overall defender down the road.

4) He's probably a better pure shooter than Melo. That means when he learns which shots to take and which ones to give up, he'll see his percentage rise.

As for weaknesses, Melo is not a great rebounder, can play lax at times and is not a great ball handler.

Durant is an incredibly poor passer right now. That passing rating is very low for comparable SF/PF tweeners. He is about even with Dirk, but he's not near the shooter Dirk is. You handle the ball as much as he does, you need to pass it better and not average 4 turnovers a night.

Starting a team today, i take Melo by a narrow margain.

For the future, I'd likely go with Durant.

But it's close right now. We need another 5 years worth of history to see where this is headed for sure.

[Chief Rum]

Where did I say that? Cleveland is still one of the best teams in the league.

Shall we avoid commenting on teams that the Clippers play so your feelings don't get hurt? If it cheers you up, the win against Boston was impressive as they are the best road team in the East (probably the best team too).

Fair enough. At least we're better than the Bulls. :)

[whomario]

Durant to me is the best "raw" scorer in basketball right now (meaning not the most polished or the most physichally unstoppable, but amazing in his own right. Yeah, ok that doesn´t make much sense ...).
If he were a better passer and had more potent teammates (offensively and as shooters i mean. Obviously they are good defensively and Westbrook can attack the shit out of people) and thus had less pressure on him than he could average 35+ a game right now in his 3rd year.
Even with teams basically having a green light to double and pressure him he´s putting up 29 a game on near 49% shooting and overall great efficiency (and he´s just started to hit the 3 ball again, after 25% on 4 attempts in his first 17 games, now he´s back up to 36% allready and rising)
The kid is 21 and averaging 29 a game on a playoff calibre team built on defensive ability.

He´s not a bad defender himself like said, has made huge strides since his rookie season (well, that he had to play the 2 there didn´t help much).

[DaddyTorgo]

As long as the C's get all their horses healthy for the playoffs they'll be fine, so I'll try to avoid going into histrionics over every loss (particularly when they've been killed by injuries lately).

[TroyF]

Durant to me is the best "raw" scorer in basketball right now (meaning not the most polished or the most physichally unstoppable, but amazing in his own right. Yeah, ok that doesn´t make much sense ...).
If he were a better passer and had more potent teammates (offensively and as shooters i mean. Obviously they are good defensively and Westbrook can attack the shit out of people) and thus had less pressure on him than he could average 35+ a game right now in his 3rd year.
Even with teams basically having a green light to double and pressure him he´s putting up 29 a game on near 49% shooting and overall great efficiency (and he´s just started to hit the 3 ball again, after 25% on 4 attempts in his first 17 games, now he´s back up to 36% allready and rising)
The kid is 21 and averaging 29 a game on a playoff calibre team built on defensive ability.

He´s not a bad defender himself like said, has made huge strides since his rookie season (well, that he had to play the 2 there didn´t help much).

The only problem is how do they improve their offense without making their defense worse? Their offense is 21st in efficiency. Defense is 5th. That defense has 3 guys capable of making the all defensive team. (Green, Sefolosha, Westbrook) None of those guys can shoot worth a crap.

The logical move is to get rid of Green as his +/- is horrible and he can't shoot a lick.

[RainMaker]

Fair enough. At least we're better than the Bulls. :)
We may have a better coach than you do and trust me, I can only say that about a couple teams.

[whomario]

The only problem is how do they improve their offense without making their defense worse? Their offense is 21st in efficiency. Defense is 5th. That defense has 3 guys capable of making the all defensive team. (Green, Sefolosha, Westbrook) None of those guys can shoot worth a crap.

The logical move is to get rid of Green as his +/- is horrible and he can't shoot a lick.

To be honest, i carefully avoided that "issue" in hopes no one notices ;)
I mean, it´s tough to decide who to replace, even Green despite his bad numbers obviously has value in that team and you don´t lightly trade a young guy from a young team that´s defining itself by playing as a unit.

Don´t see him as that good a defender though, at least not playing the 4 spot (and with Durant, he´ll allways have to), there he is average, if that. This whole "look at the smaller guy holding his own" sympathy aside, he gets scored on a lot subjectively and fairs terrible statistically via 82 games.

Their 8th/9th men in Maynor and Ibaka also don´t fit the bill as shooters at all, Maynor maybe but not prototypical. And both have looked good otherwise, Ibaka amazing in stretches and producing at a 12/11 with 2 blocks per 36 clip with very promising defense.

It´s tough to decide what to do here, really.

But yeah, in an ideal move they would somehow get rid of Green, but even then it would have to be for a PF with 3 point range because otherwise you´ll have to part ways with Sefolosha or Harden to make room for a perimeter shooter.
Durant should play all minutes at the 3, that´s where he´s most effective, so you´d need a 2 guard or a 1/2 combo guard that can shoot which would eat into Sefolosha´s or Harden´s minutes.

So i´d just try to defend the hell out of oponents and see what happens.

I´m glad Sefolosha landed here, fits that bill perfectly and is one of the best perimeter defenders in the game by now. Really can´t do much offensively (5.9 PPG in 30 minutes) but defensively ...

[Chief Rum]

We may have a better coach than you do and trust me, I can only say that about a couple teams.

You actually have an okay decent coach, IMO (not great certainly, but not as bad as he's made out), but he's part of an ass organization that doesn't know how to handle a coaching search. And at least the crappy coach we have is a decent GM.

[Groundhog]

The logical move is to get rid of Green as his +/- is horrible and he can't shoot a lick.

While I think Green could be a pretty good player, yeah, he's not the guy I'd want starting at PF for my team. I think he's best suited to a 6th man role as a combo-forward than he is as a pure PF.

[Groundhog]

dola

Kinda like a Charlie V.

[RainMaker]

You actually have an okay decent coach, IMO (not great certainly, but not as bad as he's made out), but he's part of an ass organization that doesn't know how to handle a coaching search. And at least the crappy coach we have is a decent GM.
I agree on the organization, but he's not a qualified head coach. Took him a year and a half to figure out you could run isos with Rose. Almost every game he burns through his timeouts early. Probably fine for a real small market but this is Chciago, we should be going big time with all our coaches.

[RainMaker]

Derrick Rose is really coming into his own. Was a little scared early on but at some point someone told him that he's the only good offensive player on the team and to just take over. He's averaging 22.8 points and 7.3 assists. Shooting over 50% too and has been clutch down the stretch.

[Chief Rum]

I agree on the organization, but he's not a qualified head coach. Took him a year and a half to figure out you could run isos with Rose. Almost every game he burns through his timeouts early. Probably fine for a real small market but this is Chciago, we should be going big time with all our coaches.

Well, I'm just figuring he's somewhere in the bottom ten, not necessarily the bottom three. ;) You're right, he's no great shakes as a coach.

FWIW, on the organizational level, I would guess your owner is better than ours.

[RainMaker]

Well, I'm just figuring he's somewhere in the bottom ten, not necessarily the bottom three. ;) You're right, he's no great shakes as a coach.

FWIW, on the organizational level, I would guess your owner is better than ours.
I heard this the other day and I believe it's true. The Clippers and Bulls are the only two teams to have not paid the luxury tax once in their history.

[Chief Rum]

I heard this the other day and I believe it's true. The Clippers and Bulls are the only two teams to have not paid the luxury tax once in their history.

lmao, not surprised. I definitely know that's the case with the Clips. The Bulls got their dynasty done just in time. ;)

[whomario]

Derrick Rose is really coming into his own. Was a little scared early on but at some point someone told him that he's the only good offensive player on the team and to just take over. He's averaging 22.8 points and 7.3 assists. Shooting over 50% too and has been clutch down the stretch.

still a very uneffective scorer. 19 Points on 17.2 shots, doesn´t shoot 3s and doesn´t get all that many FTs (4 a game)
Great player, no doubt but it´ll be tough to win a lot with your best player a perimeter guy not taking 3s or getting to the line at a great clip.

btw : Monta Ellis took 39 shots last night, wholy F :eek: I know they basically have 4 NBA calibre players healthy right now (their bench ? Cartier Martin, Anthony Tolliver, Chris Hunter) , but damn that´s a lot of shots.
Stephen Curry with a few nice games in the last few weeks, nice :)


Mavs with a nice win at Boston, although they are struggling and missed Garnett. Rivers blew it by sitting Sheed with his 4th foul way to long. Scalabrine and Big Baby had no chance at all to check Nowitzki, who brought the Mavs back by himself during that stretch.

[RainMaker]

still a very uneffective scorer. 19 Points on 17.2 shots, doesn´t shoot 3s and doesn´t get all that many FTs (4 a game)
Great player, no doubt but it´ll be tough to win a lot with your best player a perimeter guy not taking 3s or getting to the line at a great clip.

Agreed (although his effectiveness has gone up since his ankle healed) and because of that I don't think he'll ever be the best player on a championship caliber team. I do think he can be a top #2 guy that you pair with a big time scorer.

Offensively I still think his game is developing. He's uneffective primarily because he is really the only major offensive threat the Bulls have. They don't really have anyone who can create their own shots consistently and often get into situations where they just give it to Rose and tell everyone to move out of the way.

As you mentioned also, he doesn't get to the FT line much. He sort of tries to avoid contact everytime he drives instead of creating it like a guy like Wade does. There are times when you have a defender beat or out of position and you just need to make sure you draw the foul instead of trying to hit the bucket. I think that's something you learn as you mature (he is only 21). I'd add that he really gets very little respect from the officials so far which hopefully changes (he is real shy and does not complain or sell a foul well).

Ultimately the Bulls best shot is picking up one of the major free agents. If they can get a Lebron or Wade, they're the top contender in my book. You pair one of those with Rose, Noah (who may be an All-Star) and Deng. I'd even settle for a scorer like Joe Johnson or a post guy like Bosh. Basically they need a guy on this team to give them 25 points to push them into the elite teams.

[RainMaker]

lmao, not surprised. I definitely know that's the case with the Clips. The Bulls got their dynasty done just in time. ;)
Was reading today that the Clippers knew all along that there was little to no shot that Griffin would play this season. Bill Simmons was ripping them for lying to ticket holders and fans so they wouldn't lose sales.

[Chief Rum]

Was reading today that the Clippers knew all along that there was little to no shot that Griffin would play this season. Bill Simmons was ripping them for lying to ticket holders and fans so they wouldn't lose sales.

Does Simmons have a source on that? While it certainly doesn't surprise me, my understanding is that sort of injury, the return rate is about what was quoted from the start (2-3 months without surgery). And while misleading the fans is one thing, but I find it surprising they would take the non-surgery risk with their top draft pick in some time, all the way to the point of allowing him to start basketball activities, just to deceive fans. I mean, theyw ould be deceiving Griffin, too, in that case, and risking the injury becoming more severe. That doesn't make much sense for a few extra dollars (not like there are a lot of bandwaggoners out there for the Clips, the ones who buy tickets are diehards, they buy tickets anyway).

[RainMaker]

Does Simmons have a source on that? While it certainly doesn't surprise me, my understanding is that sort of injury, the return rate is about what was quoted from the start (2-3 months without surgery). And while misleading the fans is one thing, but I find it surprising they would take the non-surgery risk with their top draft pick in some time, all the way to the point of allowing him to start basketball activities, just to deceive fans. I mean, theyw ould be deceiving Griffin, too, in that case, and risking the injury becoming more severe. That doesn't make much sense for a few extra dollars (not like there are a lot of bandwaggoners out there for the Clips, the ones who buy tickets are diehards, they buy tickets anyway).
Not sure, caught it on his Twitter. He is a season ticket holder to the Clippers and I know has some real good connections with the team and NBA. He compared it to the Oden injury which is exactly the same. Blazers came out right away and said Oden was done and was having the surgery while Clippers waited 10 weeks before having the surgery.

Maybe he's just pissed off being a ticket holder but I do think he has good connections.

[Chief Rum]

Not sure, caught it on his Twitter. He is a season ticket holder to the Clippers and I know has some real good connections with the team and NBA. He compared it to the Oden injury which is exactly the same. Blazers came out right away and said Oden was done and was having the surgery while Clippers waited 10 weeks before having the surgery.

Maybe he's just pissed off being a ticket holder but I do think he has good connections.

I am gonna wait to see a real source on that. Not to doubt Simmons, but things don't jive with his version.

[whomario]

How bad are the Nets ?

“We showed some fight and effort but it was too little, too late. This is another game where we could not hit a shot when we needed it.”

says Vandeweghe, after a 79-111 trashing againste the Warriors where they lost the 2nd half 35-61. Wouldn´t want to see them when they are not showing "some fight and effort".

After a trashing against the Warriors, who played Anthony Tolliver and Cartier Martin 35+ minutes and lost Ellis basically after the first quarter.

This team is seriously fucked up, god damn are they terrible. Worst NBA team i´ve ever witnessed, definitely.

They don´t do anything good or even ok, not a single thing. Can´t rebound, can´t shoot, can´t move the ball, can´t defend, don´t run the floor, don´t rotate defensivley.


Stephen Curry with another great game, 32 points on 11-21 shooting. Over the last 10 games he´s averaging 18.5/4/5 with 2 steals shooting 49% from the field and 52% from 3.

Definitely looks like a promising NBA PG. And i don´t think it´s because of Nellie´s "system", he hardly touches the ball on many nights when Monta Ellis is doing his Michael Jordan impersonation.

Blazers with a great effort against the Celtics (with Garnett back), loosing in OT without Roy (and Oden, Przybilla, Outlaw and Batum ...)
Andre Miller is averaging 20 Points and 7 assists in 10 games in January, shooting 50+ percent.
Maybe Roy recognizes that the guy can flat out play and should have the ball in his hands more often.

Kobe looks very shaky recently, seems really bothered by thos nagging injuries. Lakers don´t have people to really take up the slack, really no one else who can create his own shot.
But they play good enough defense and are overall talented enough to win games. Still, if they would go into the playoffs in this state i think they are beatable.


Grizzlies win their 10th home game in a row :eek: And oh, Thabeet looks really good at times defensively. Offense is meh, but he really starts to grasp what to do and what not to do on defense and really impacts games at times.

The Suns suck right now, ugh ...

Still 2 games between the 4th and the 11th spot in the West, that´s going to be interesting :)


Brandon Jennings is struggling big time unfortunately ... After shooting just 38% in December, he´s shooting 30% in January (11 games)

[TroyF]

Blazers playing very well despite the injuries. Phoenix is about to hold a fire sale. They are fading fast and are clearly not one of the top 8 in the west right now.

OKC/Memphis/NO are all playing terrific basketball. At this point, I'd rather face Houston/Utah/Phoenix who are all above them in the standings.

This trading deadline is going to be VERY interesting. In the west, Dallas/Denver/SA could all position themselves for the two seed and a realistic shot at the Lakers with a great trade. In the East, the three superpowers could all make a huge move to become the favorites if they made the right deal.

I know the player the Nuggets NEED, I just don't think they have enough to get him. Troy Murphy would be the perfect fit. Big man who can shoot outside, stretch the D, get out of Melo and the slashers way and rebound the ball.

The Mavericks will regret it if they deal for Kevin Martin. love his shooting ability, but the guy simply can't play defense. Teams like the Lakers, Spurs and Blazers would simply abuse him. Meanwhile, the Mavs difficult matchup (Denver) would be thrilled as well. Martin can't D up on JR Smith man on man. You start helping him out to cover JR, the Nuggets real threats get more open looks. I understand the guy can shoot. . . but I don't like how he fits with Dallas.

[stevew]

The Cavs>everyone right now. I'd like to see us get another bench scorer. I think not getting Stephen Jackson was a mistake. Hopefully someone similar will be available. Losing Mo will hurt for the next month.

[RainMaker]

The Cavs>everyone right now. I'd like to see us get another bench scorer. I think not getting Stephen Jackson was a mistake. Hopefully someone similar will be available. Losing Mo will hurt for the next month.
I think David West would be an interesting option for you guys. I would guess it would be Z for him and someone else.

Just looking at the Bulls, I thought an interesting trade would be Kirk Hinrich (or John Salmons) and Tyrus Thomas for Z. Gives you guys a really athletic PF who hits the offensive glass real well and is one of the best shot blockers in the game. Hinrich is a nice backup guard who can play both guard spots and is a solid defender. Salmons would be the other option if you didn't want Hinrich's long contract.

Basically gives you some depth and more athleticism in the front court.

[Cuckoo]

Two heartbreaking losses in two nights for the Thunder. I'm pleased as punch about this season so far, but those games just kill my blood pressure and really get me down. They're an exciting bunch, but they haven't learned how to close out, it seems.

[RainMaker]

Saw the end of that game, tough way to lose tonight.

[stevew]

I don't think Z will get traded. After all the shit he gas been through I think it would be shitty to trade him. Not saying that I think we will be spraying champagne in June. But if he isn't a part of it I will be upset. He had like 5 foot surgeries and came back. And while he isn't the player he was 3 to 4 years ago, I'd hate to see him discarded like a piece of meat.

Besides. Wally works in virtually every scenerio that Z would. League office might get pissy. And other teams might get Butt hurt. But right now I think the team has virtually infinite resources.

[RainMaker]

I don't think Z will get traded. After all the shit he gas been through I think it would be shitty to trade him. Not saying that I think we will be spraying champagne in June. But if he isn't a part of it I will be upset. He had like 5 foot surgeries and came back. And while he isn't the player he was 3 to 4 years ago, I'd hate to see him discarded like a piece of meat.

Besides. Wally works in virtually every scenerio that Z would. League office might get pissy. And other teams might get Butt hurt. But right now I think the team has virtually infinite resources.
Wally also just signed a deal with CBS to cover college basketball. Does he want to give up his new job right away to sit on the bench for a crappy team? I don't know what his financial situation is, but I think if his goal is to get into broadcasting, it'll take a really sweet deal to get him to do it.

I understand wanting to see Z earn a title, but it's just business. The team is much better with a David West in the lineup. While they have a shot at winning it with Z, I do think a healthy Boston team is going to be tough to beat in the playoffs. Not to mention an Orlando team that is just a bad matchup for them. And of course the Lakers in the finals. I just think Cleveland needs one more good player to get them over the hump.

The city deserves a championship and I hope sentimental value toward a player doesn't hold them back from getting it.

[whomario]

Wally also just signed a deal with CBS to cover college basketball. Does he want to give up his new job right away to sit on the bench for a crappy team? I don't know what his financial situation is, but I think if his goal is to get into broadcasting, it'll take a really sweet deal to get him to do it.


Can´t he just report and then get bought out or sth ?

What is the deal with his contract anyway, he´s not on Cleveland´t payroll acording to hoopshypes salarie list ? :confused: Wasn´t he the big expiring last year ?
The why would he work in the same scenarios as Z ? :confused:

[TroyF]

The Cavs>everyone right now. I'd like to see us get another bench scorer. I think not getting Stephen Jackson was a mistake. Hopefully someone similar will be available. Losing Mo will hurt for the next month.


Cavs are playing great ball. .. but I still think at the end of the day the Magic are a team they won't be able to beat. I know, I know, the Magic are a mess right now. Vince isn't playing well, nobody is jelling well, etc. I just think they'll get it together come playoff time.

The other thing that scares me about the Cavs is how many close games they are involved in. Look at January's close games:

3 point loss vs. Charlotte (back to back)

2 point loss @Denver. Denver was missing Carmelo in the game.

3 point win @Golden State. (back to back)

1 point loss @Utah

1 point win @Clippers

8 point win vs.Raptors in a game that was a 4 point game with 1:35 left

6 point win vs. Lakers in a game that where Pau missed two FT in a two point game with 35 seconds left. This is the game that really concerns me about the Cavs. You hold the Lakers to 38% shooting, shoot more FT than they do, and it's a 2 point game with the Lakers having a chance to tie late? Look, no matter how good your d is, the Lakers aren't going to shoot 38% that often.

1 point win vs. OKC

1 point win @Miami

OK, 9 of 12 games are gut wrenching games down to the wire. Only NJ, Washington and a game in Portland were in control throughout the fourth. (NJ got to within 5 with 5 minutes left, but I don't count that, it's flipping NJ, they weren't winning the game)

Don't get me wrong, it's impressive as hell they are winning as much as they are. Close or not, wins are wins. That said, they aren't fooling anyone right now. These teams aren't walking away going "it's Cleveland and everyone else" They are walking away going "we have a chance at these guys"

James can will them to W's in regular season games. Is the rest of the team going to wake up for the playoffs or not? If they don't, they will go down again.

[stevew]

Can´t he just report and then get bought out or sth ?

What is the deal with his contract anyway, he´s not on Cleveland´t payroll acording to hoopshypes salarie list ? :confused: Wasn´t he the big expiring last year ?
The why would he work in the same scenarios as Z ? :confused:

He made 14m last year(expiring). He could be signed and traded without BYC compensation up to a value of approximately 16m dollars. So if the deal is prorated from the middle of February, he'd get about 1/3 of the amount of money for a sign & trade.

So, basically they can create an expiring contract, and send some cash with him. The team would only be on the hook for two months guaranteed.

So-Wally signs for 3/24(one year guaranteed), and the cavs throw in a bunch of cash, they can make a deal work. See Keith Van Horn a few years ago.

[stevew]

Cavs are playing great ball. .. but I still think at the end of the day the Magic are a team they won't be able to beat. I know, I know, the Magic are a mess right now. Vince isn't playing well, nobody is jelling well, etc. I just think they'll get it together come playoff time.

The other thing that scares me about the Cavs is how many close games they are involved in. Look at January's close games:

3 point loss vs. Charlotte (back to back)

2 point loss @Denver. Denver was missing Carmelo in the game.

3 point win @Golden State. (back to back)

1 point loss @Utah

1 point win @Clippers

8 point win vs.Raptors in a game that was a 4 point game with 1:35 left

6 point win vs. Lakers in a game that where Pau missed two FT in a two point game with 35 seconds left. This is the game that really concerns me about the Cavs. You hold the Lakers to 38% shooting, shoot more FT than they do, and it's a 2 point game with the Lakers having a chance to tie late? Look, no matter how good your d is, the Lakers aren't going to shoot 38% that often.

1 point win vs. OKC

1 point win @Miami

OK, 9 of 12 games are gut wrenching games down to the wire. Only NJ, Washington and a game in Portland were in control throughout the fourth. (NJ got to within 5 with 5 minutes left, but I don't count that, it's flipping NJ, they weren't winning the game)

Don't get me wrong, it's impressive as hell they are winning as much as they are. Close or not, wins are wins. That said, they aren't fooling anyone right now. These teams aren't walking away going "it's Cleveland and everyone else" They are walking away going "we have a chance at these guys"

James can will them to W's in regular season games. Is the rest of the team going to wake up for the playoffs or not? If they don't, they will go down again.

Hence why we need another bench scorer/scorer in general.

[RainMaker]

He made 14m last year(expiring). He could be signed and traded without BYC compensation up to a value of approximately 16m dollars. So if the deal is prorated from the middle of February, he'd get about 1/3 of the amount of money for a sign & trade.

So, basically they can create an expiring contract, and send some cash with him. The team would only be on the hook for two months guaranteed.

So-Wally signs for 3/24(one year guaranteed), and the cavs throw in a bunch of cash, they can make a deal work. See Keith Van Horn a few years ago.

Yeah, that's how it would be done. I still think it's no slam dunk with Wally taking a new job. If he's really dedicated to this post-playing career, I don't think he'll do it.

Ilgauskas works perfectly in so many trades that I just think he'll be the odd man out when all is said and done. I'd like to see the Cavs pickup a nice player because it would make an epic NBA Finals, but I think Ferry blows.

[stevew]

How bad are these Nets? 3-40?

I think it's virtually impossible to suck that bad. Won't they win around 12-15 games this season still? I mean only being on pace for 5 wins just isn't possible.

[Groundhog]

Strange thing about the Nets is that they are solid at PG and C, but the talent level REALLY drops off big-time after that. CDR's production has strangely fallen off the face of the Earth too.

[RainMaker]

And my Bulls lost at home to them.

[Groundhog]

David Lee is a beast.

[Groundhog]

dola

Two years ago, I would never have imagined typing the above statement in a million years ago.

[whomario]

Yeah, and to think that this is a guy that basically until well into last season was labeled as a hustle player, to have that guy go out and show off that sort of skillset is amazing.
He was more of this type of player for Florida, but definitely not to this extent either.
He needs to play next to a Center and then he´ll be even better. Don´t be fooled, he´s quick and agile enough to even be a mismatch for 80% of the starting PFs in this league, amazing mobility and great ballhandling for a 4.
I he had an ok center next to him he´d be ok defensively imo.
And with a better PG that can really run the Pick & Roll he´d be a monster as well (no one covers Duhon on a Pick and Roll, just to weak of a scorer)

Heck, in 12 January games he´s averaging nearly 5 Assist a night to go with 21/13 (although not as efficient scoring, needs 17.5 FGA) . And only 2 TO a game.

His season stats are now 19.6/11.6/3.4

btw : only 15 players since 1980 have had 11+/3.5+ for rebounds/assists.

(just had to use the great search engine they have at basketball-reference : Play Index | Basketball-Reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/) Very fun little tool :) )


btw : Since Clevelands close games were brought up, the Mavs just won a record tying 10th straight game that was decided by 1 point (dating back to 2007) and are 14-3 in games decided by 5 or less points this year.

Saw one of this season´s uglier games between Sacramento and Golden State, ugh ... Both teams shooting terrible (38% Sac, 32% GS), combining for 8-38 from outside, no boxing out, terrible decicions and just not a lot of heady play really.
That both teams almost reached 100 with this shooting numbers speaks volumes for the game, like 2 head-less chicken. Disgustingly weak interior defense and crappy refereeing on top of it (that´s why there were 75 FTs between both teams).

Stephen Curry kind of a bright spot, best player on either side. Relatively good shooting at 10-22, 29 points, 9 boards and 6 assists with just 1 TO.

Biedrins looks like crap, that layoff did a number on him really ... Little side fact : He´s now 2-20 from the FT line this year ... Have you seen him shoot FTs ? Funniest thing this side of Chuck Hayes shooting FTs :D

[Neon_Chaos]

However, let's not forget that this year he is playing for Mike D'Antoni and the SSOL.

[TroyF]

Lawson isn't invited to the rookie game.

Does anyone in the league office even watch the games? Ty is worse than Flynn? Really. Go ahead, make your case for that so I can laugh my ass off.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Arenas & Crit both suspended for the remainder of the season.

Gilbert Arenas, Javaris Crittenton suspended for rest of season - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4862783)

[Ironhead]

However, let's not forget that this year he is playing for Mike D'Antoni and the SSOL.

The Knicks have not tried to run SSOL since the first 10 games or so of the season. D'Antoni finally realized the team doesn't have the talent to run his offense. The Knicks are basically just running a traditional half court offense these days. Here is an blurb from early December.


Mike D'Antoni, inventor of the "Seven Seconds or Less" offense, admits he has tinkered with his formula during the Knicks' surge, having slowed the attack.

"As long as it's 24 seconds or less," D'Antoni said jokingly before the Knicks won their fourth straight and fifth in six games in a comeback victory over the Hornets at New Orleans Arena.

D'Antoni said the dramatic change came after their franchise-worst 1-9 start, finally realizing the talent does not translate to speedball. When D'Antoni accepted the Knicks job before the 2008-09 season, there were questions if D'Antoni would adapt his system to the talent. It took him a while, but he's finally adjusted.

[Neuqua]

Bulls win their 4th in a row, fun team to watch.

I really hope Derrick makes the all-star team tomorrow.

[Groundhog]

New Jersey Nets!

[RainMaker]

Bulls win their 4th in a row, fun team to watch.

I really hope Derrick makes the all-star team tomorrow.
I thought we wouldn't win a game on this road trip the way it started. 4 in a row on the road against teams with winning records. The only negative is that it's really based on Rose getting really hot from mid-range and he's not drawing enough fouls. But still, these shots are wide open so maybe he can keep it up.

I hope Derrick gets the All-Star nod too. He's been one of the best PG in the league since recovering from the ankle and he's getting double teamed on almost every possesion.

[TroyF]

Nuggets are quietly rolling through January. 11-2 this month with wins @Utah (Melo and Billups out), vs. Cleveland (Melo and Lawson out), vs. Orlando (Lawson out), vs. Utah, vs. New Orleans, vs. Charlotte (Melo out) and @Houston (Melo out)

The two losses were by a combined 5 points on back to backs, once without Melo and Billups, the other without Melo. They now own the third best record in basketball heading into a fairly difficult stretch.

the frustrating thing is all the games blown. They are 20-7 vs. above .500 teams. 11-7 vs. below .500 teams. (for comparisons sake, the Lakers are 18-10 vs. .500 or above teams right now. 17-3 vs. under .500 teams)

Should be a fun game Friday night in OKC.

I don't think there is any question Amare is moving. The only question is to who and for what. I think the Sixers are trading Iggy, the Bulls are shipping Hinrich, the Warriors will ship anybody for anything and the Wizards the same. I really think this is going to be one hell of a trading deadline. I hope Denver does something to improve. I know the Lakers, Spurs, Mavericks and other Western powers will not sit still. Having said that, I hope they don't just trade for the sake of trading either. Either improve or stand pat.

[Neuqua]

Derrick Rose becomes the first Chicago Bull to make the All-Star team since Michael Jordan.

Point guards Deron Williams(notes) of Utah, Chicago's Derrick Rose(notes) and Boston's Rajon Rondo(notes) will make their All-Star Game debuts next month in Dallas, sources said Thursday.

Williams, Rondo and Rose top the list of reserves chosen by the league's coaches to participate in the Feb. 14 game at Cowboys Stadium. The names won't be made official until Thursday night, but Yahoo! Sports has obtained the list of reserves.

Besides Rondo and Rose, the East roster includes Boston's Paul Pierce(notes), Toronto's Chris Bosh(notes), Charlotte's Gerald Wallace(notes) and Atlanta's Joe Johnson(notes) and Al Horford(notes).

The West includes the New Orleans' Chris Paul(notes), the Lakers' Pau Gasol(notes), Oklahoma City's Kevin Durant(notes), Dallas' Dirk Nowitzki(notes), Memphis' Zach Randolph(notes) and Portland's Brandon Roy(notes).

Among the notable candidates left off the team are the Los Angeles Clippers' Chris Kaman(notes), New York's David Lee(notes) and Denver's Chauncey Billups

[Sublime 2]

Derrick Rose becomes the first Chicago Bull to make the All-Star team since Michael Jordan.

Glad Rondo made it as well, absolutely deserved it.

[jbergey22]

Im suprised this is Deron's 1st. Hes been a stud for 3 years.

David Lee is underrated. Its sad that AI took his spot.

[Chief Rum]

lol...the coaches are as bad at picking these as the fans.

[Groundhog]

A year ago, who thought we'd see Zach Randolph in an all-star game in 2010?

[Big Fo]

What a great turnaround from Orlando, down 16 at one point but they beat Boston by 2. Howard had a number of nice buckets against Perkins who does such a good job defending him, he had that hook shot going tonight. Lewis had some big buckets including the game winner, maybe this will be the start of him playing like he can more consistently, he's had a bad year, the suspension at the start of the season might be one cause, maybe he misses Turkoglu as well, I dunno. van Gundy said that Gortat and Howard aren't often effective together but it worked great in the fourth quarter tonight.

The strange/worrying thing is that the fourth quarter comeback took place with Williams and Redick in the backcourt for most of the time, Carter had another bad night and Nelson was iffy other than a good scoring run early on. Carter is so frustrating to watch sometimes, forcing bad shots and turning the ball over in such a way that it seems like he's not even paying attention.

It was good to see them get a win against Boston after getting their asses kicked on Christmas, with only four legitimate teams in the East there's a decent chance these two teams will face each other in the playoffs.

[MikeVic]

What a great turnaround from Orlando, down 16 at one point but they beat Boston by 2. Howard had a number of nice buckets against Perkins who does such a good job defending him, he had that hook shot going tonight. Lewis had some big buckets including the game winner, maybe this will be the start of him playing like he can more consistently, he's had a bad year, the suspension at the start of the season might be one cause, maybe he misses Turkoglu as well, I dunno. van Gundy said that Gortat and Howard aren't often effective together but it worked great in the fourth quarter tonight.

The strange/worrying thing is that the fourth quarter comeback took place with Williams and Redick in the backcourt for most of the time, Carter had another bad night and Nelson was iffy other than a good scoring run early on. Carter is so frustrating to watch sometimes, forcing bad shots and turning the ball over in such a way that it seems like he's not even paying attention.

It was good to see them get a win against Boston after getting their asses kicked on Christmas, with only four legitimate teams in the East there's a decent chance these two teams will face each other in the playoffs.

I really don't like Carter, and there aren't many athletes I vocally hate. Orlando should just cut him and let him rot in free agency.

[whomario]

<meta http-equiv="CONTENT-TYPE" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><title></title><meta name="GENERATOR" content="OpenOffice.org 3.1 (Win32)"><style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } --> </style> lol...the coaches are as bad at picking these as the fans.

how so ? I don´t see any obvious screwups here. People that didn´t see him play much (he´s on the Grizzlies, so that´s likely the majority ...) will bitch about Randolph, but the guy has not only had an amazing individual season but has really shown a new team-quality. Can´t do much about him being flatfooted and not exactly destined to be a good defender, but ran the floor, rotated, moved the ball.

Maybe Gasol over Kaman is dubious in terms of rewarding the right guy, but from a coaches standpoint ? Gasol is easily a better player than Kaman, numbers don´t tell the story.
Kaman should have gone because of the way he plays (hard, every night) and produces (admirable) and because he has the "better" season by virtue of playing way more games.
But if it´s a question of who is the better player, that´s Gasol quite easily.

Lee over Horford maybe ? Possibly, but Horford has a highly underrated impact on a really good team.
Or over Pierce ? Yeah, possibly. But definitely not an unquestionable truth o anything ...

Roy took some heat for coasting, but has quetly led a heavily depleted Portland squad to a very respectable record.

Billups over Paul and Williams ? Of course Chauncey has turned his play around and has been amazing, but those 2 guys have been just that as well.

Rondo has been the best player for the Celtics for long stretches and now that the numbers measure up with his impact he is an obvious choice.

[Chief Rum]

<meta http-equiv="CONTENT-TYPE" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><title></title><meta name="GENERATOR" content="OpenOffice.org 3.1 (Win32)"><style type="text/css"> <!-- @page { margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom: 0.21cm } --> </style>

how so ? I don´t see any obvious screwups here. People that didn´t see him play much (he´s on the Grizzlies, so that´s likely the majority ...) will bitch about Randolph, but the guy has not only had an amazing individual season but has really shown a new team-quality. Can´t do much about him being flatfooted and not exactly destined to be a good defender, but ran the floor, rotated, moved the ball.

Maybe Gasol over Kaman is dubious in terms of rewarding the right guy, but from a coaches standpoint ? Gasol is easily a better player than Kaman, numbers don´t tell the story.
Kaman should have gone because of the way he plays (hard, every night) and produces (admirable) and because he has the "better" season by virtue of playing way more games.
But if it´s a question of who is the better player, that´s Gasol quite easily.

My quibble was with leaving Kaman off, so I'll respond to that. Kaman should have been in before Gasol and Randolph (either one).

All Star is not about "better player" (and I don't disagree that Gasol is better, he's a terrific talent). All Star is about who is having the better season.

Gasol actually rates slightly higher than Kaman in most averages this season, better FG%, rebounding average (although Kaman's is hurt a bit playing next to the human vacuum Camby), blocks and assists. Kaman's primary edge right now is scoring. My issue with Gasol over Kaman is that Gasol has missed some significant stretches of the season so far, and IMO, the player who has been there for most of the team's games, in a close comparison, should get the nod over someone who has missed 12-15 games or whatever it is.

Randolph, outside of higher rebounding average, simply is just not having as good of a year as Kaman statistically, and he is much worse than Kaman, defensively. Technically, he got in as a PF, I would guess, but this is an All Star team starting a PF as a C (Stoudemire), and besides, Nowitzki is the obvious "backup PF"--Randolph was clearly was one, if not the, last addition to the team.

Kaman is not only a better player having a better year, he is more or less the lynch pin to the Clippers' offense, as much of the team's offense operates out of the Baron Davis-Kaman inside-outside game. Kaman has essentially morphed into the role Elton Brand had three years ago, expanding his range to consistent 15 footers, and still displaying the various moves he has developed in the post for years. He has also been taking a lot more "money shots", showing confidence in taking a lead role in the team's offense. The Clippers, outside of occasional crapping the bed nights like last night with the Nets, are much better and more consistent this year, and that's despite getting nothing from Blake Griffin and having injury issues with Eric Gordon. Reason? A combination of a more motivated Baron Davis and Kaman elevating his game.

He deserves to be there. The NBA coaches are a joke for putting Randolph (at the very least) there over Kaman.

Kaman was also jobbed two years ago for a spot, although as it turns out, he hurt himself just before the break anyway and would not have been able to play.

[whomario]

Randolph, outside of higher rebounding average, simply is just not having as good of a year as Kaman statistically, and he is much worse than Kaman, defensively.

He deserves to be there. The NBA coaches are a joke for putting Randolph (at the very least) there over Kaman.



Actually, he is having a better year statistically :confused: Other than blocks he´s (a little) better in just about every statistical category. Started the year a little slower, but by now it looks like this :

Kaman : 20.2 PPG / 9.1 RPG / 1.3 BPG / 1.8 APG / 3.0 TOPG / 50% FG / 75% FT
Randolph : 21.0 PPG / 11.6 RPG / 0.5 BPG / 2.1 APG / 2.2 TOPG / 50% FG / 80% FT

"advanced" stats :

Kaman : 20.7 PER / 19.9 Opp PER / +- 6.3 / 1.20 PPS
Randolph : 24.8 PER / 18.8 Opp PER / +- 7.3 / 1.26 PPS

minutes are pretty much a wash, randolph plays 40 seconds more a night.


And have you seen him play ? He is immensely important to memphis offensively and actually doesn´t hurt them defensively.

Basically your whole "the Clippers are better because of a great Kaman" could pass for randolph and the Grizzlies as well.

Kaman would have been highly deserving, no question about it. But so is Randolph. Sometimes not all players deserving find a spot.
Just because he has a bad image doesn´t change the fact his play has been amazing and helps the grizzlies a whole lot.


the grizzlies coach should be in the running for COTY as well, having the guts to put iverson on the bench (you can bet the front office and ownership wasn´t happy about that one) and getting Randolph to play up to his talent and give a crap on top of it, getting by with virtually no depth (no injuries help) outside of the starting 5, turn a season around with a team and association that is used to loosing, balancing 4 very good offensive options.
Hell of a job.

[RainMaker]

You can make a case for both but I do think Randolph is one of the better stories of the year. A guy who was essentially a black hole offensively has turned into a vital cog for the Memphis team. I think with how close they are, you have to give the nod to the guy who has his team in the playoffs right now. Kaman's stats are also not that impressive when you dig deeper. His true shooting percentage is actually pretty weak for a big man. A solid player but just short of an All-Star in my book. I'd actually give Marc Gasol the nod ahead of Kaman.

In the East, I don't see how Jamison is not on the team and it's surprising that Josh Smith is the odd man out in Atlanta considering he's the best player on that team.

[Chief Rum]

Actually, he is having a better year statistically :confused: Other than blocks he´s (a little) better in just about every statistical category. Started the year a little slower, but by now it looks like this :

Kaman : 20.2 PPG / 9.1 RPG / 1.3 BPG / 1.8 APG / 3.0 TOPG / 50% FG / 75% FT
Randolph : 21.0 PPG / 11.6 RPG / 0.5 BPG / 2.1 APG / 2.2 TOPG / 50% FG / 80% FT

"advanced" stats :

Kaman : 20.7 PER / 19.9 Opp PER / +- 6.3 / 1.20 PPS
Randolph : 24.8 PER / 18.8 Opp PER / +- 7.3 / 1.26 PPS

minutes are pretty much a wash, randolph plays 40 seconds more a night.


And have you seen him play ? He is immensely important to memphis offensively and actually doesn´t hurt them defensively.

Basically your whole "the Clippers are better because of a great Kaman" could pass for randolph and the Grizzlies as well.

Kaman would have been highly deserving, no question about it. But so is Randolph. Sometimes not all players deserving find a spot.
Just because he has a bad image doesn´t change the fact his play has been amazing and helps the grizzlies a whole lot.


the grizzlies coach should be in the running for COTY as well, having the guts to put iverson on the bench (you can bet the front office and ownership wasn´t happy about that one) and getting Randolph to play up to his talent and give a crap on top of it, getting by with virtually no depth (no injuries help) outside of the starting 5, turn a season around with a team and association that is used to loosing, balancing 4 very good offensive options.
Hell of a job.

Thanks for the well thought response, whomario. I still believe Kaman is every much as deserving of the spot, and we can both agree that it's close.

BTW, Randolph's stats aren't much better than...last year when he was with the Clippers. Obviously, I have seen him play (and come on, man, you should know that, you know I'm a Clippers fan, surprised you threw out all that stuff, and yet you didn't carp to the fact that, of course, I will have seen Randolph play and a LOT).

[whomario]

Thanks for the well thought response, whomario. I still believe Kaman is every much as deserving of the spot, and we can both agree that it's close.

BTW, Randolph's stats aren't much better than...last year when he was with the Clippers. Obviously, I have seen him play (and come on, man, you should know that, you know I'm a Clippers fan, surprised you threw out all that stuff, and yet you didn't carp to the fact that, of course, I will have seen Randolph play and a LOT).


Like said, Kaman definitely could have easily gone over Randolph or Gasol, no question about it. He also should be in the running for MIP, if not the front runner there with a guy like david Lee (i really apreciate it when players with a handfull of seasons make another step in their development)

Of course i know you are a Clippers Fan and that´s pretty much what i expected as a reponse though, honestly ;) Let me verify : Have you seen him play this season ?
That´s my main point, Randolph this year plays extremely different than ever before for whatever reasons (hitting his head, having an epiphany, being blackmailed to play teambasketball by guys holding his weed-stock as a hostage). Haven´t seen him play as much as you last year, but with league pass online propably 6,7 times and 6,7 times this year allready (not even that much of a Grizzlies follower, they just happened to play a lot of teams i wanted to see those days/nights).
It´s day and night.
No more relentless chucking (well, at leats not consistently ;) ), no more coasting back to D, no more quitting on offensive screens to have a better chance at the offensive rebound, no more holding the ball too long too often.

Does that make the lackluster and erratic efforts he had with the Clippers and Knicks (in terms of team play) any better ? Hell no.
But still, this season he´s been a different player for whatever reasons and solely based on this season has been an All Star Calibre player.
Wouldn´t at all be suprised if over the summer he hits his head again and by this time of the year next season i´ll be commenting on him having just picked up a suspension for drug violations after just being cleared from having beaten up a teammate a week before and having gone straight into "Antoine Walker Mode" on the court (which would be Randolph usual lack of defense and chucking times 3). But this season ? All Star.

And yeah, we can agree that Kaman could have been there as well and no one would have had a right to object.

[RainMaker]

Speaking of the old Zach Randolph.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rh2fn01cngg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rh2fn01cngg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[TroyF]

Like said, Kaman definitely could have easily gone over Randolph or Gasol, no question about it. He also should be in the running for MIP, if not the front runner there with a guy like david Lee (i really apreciate it when players with a handfull of seasons make another step in their development)

Of course i know you are a Clippers Fan and that´s pretty much what i expected as a reponse though, honestly ;) Let me verify : Have you seen him play this season ?
That´s my main point, Randolph this year plays extremely different than ever before for whatever reasons (hitting his head, having an epiphany, being blackmailed to play teambasketball by guys holding his weed-stock as a hostage). Haven´t seen him play as much as you last year, but with league pass online propably 6,7 times and 6,7 times this year allready (not even that much of a Grizzlies follower, they just happened to play a lot of teams i wanted to see those days/nights).
It´s day and night.
No more relentless chucking (well, at leats not consistently ;) ), no more coasting back to D, no more quitting on offensive screens to have a better chance at the offensive rebound, no more holding the ball too long too often.

Does that make the lackluster and erratic efforts he had with the Clippers and Knicks (in terms of team play) any better ? Hell no.
But still, this season he´s been a different player for whatever reasons and solely based on this season has been an All Star Calibre player.
Wouldn´t at all be suprised if over the summer he hits his head again and by this time of the year next season i´ll be commenting on him having just picked up a suspension for drug violations after just being cleared from having beaten up a teammate a week before and having gone straight into "Antoine Walker Mode" on the court (which would be Randolph usual lack of defense and chucking times 3). But this season ? All Star.

And yeah, we can agree that Kaman could have been there as well and no one would have had a right to object.

One of the most bizzare transformations I've ever seen. They guy is playing defense, rebounding, passing. . . it's simply crazy to watch.

I had ONE major grip with this years selections:

Where in the world is Josh Smith? Two guys on his team who aren't better players than he is are on the team. (and I'm a Joe Johnson and Al Horford fan)

The guy has been amazing this year. If you have watched more than one Hawks game and do not think he's the best player on the team and one of the top 12 in the East, I'm not sure we can be friends. (j/k)

That was a screw job. I don't have an issue with Randolph over Kaman, I think it was the right call.

[Big Fo]

A humorous and accurate summation of just how poorly Vince Carter played last night: ESPN TrueHoop blog (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/12691/vince-carters-bad-night)

At least we have JJ Redick.

[gstelmack]

A humorous and accurate summation of just how poorly Vince Carter played last night: ESPN TrueHoop blog (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/12691/vince-carters-bad-night)

At least we have JJ Redick.

Before Carter can make the entry pass, he has the ball poked away by Rasheed Wallace. It rolls toward midcourt. Rondo beats Carter there by about half an hour. Carter jumps right on top of him. A blatant foul, only Carter got there so late, that he is saved by the fact that Rondo has already called timeout.

That's just awesome writing.

[Big Fo]

Another nice win for Orlando tonight, beating the Hawks easily. Howard with a 31-19-3 night. Redick continues to be our best option at shooting guard, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I'm not quite all the way on the Vince Carter hate train (maintaining some hope because I'm a deluded optimist kind of fan) but I've at least gone ahead and paid for my boarding pass.

Andre Miller scoring 52 points in one night is remarkable.

[whomario]

Andre Miller scoring 52 points in one night is remarkable.

especially after averaging 5 in his last 3 games, it´s not like the guy was on a hot streak. Plus, make sure to watch the highlights somewhere for his running hook over Marion to send it into OT !

Batum played some very good defense on Dirk.

Redick has been a revelation this season, i am pretty happy for him too.

Gerald Wallace with 38/11, whoa :eek: Amazing season by him.

[whomario]

pretty good game going on between the Celtics and Lakers. Really match up very interestingly and would make for a great finals again if it were to happen.

Fisher shouldn´t be starting at this point of his career...

Rondo playing great so far, Gasol/Bynum having their way inside.

Rondo : It´s stunning how a guy with that little shooting ability can play so good. Every team is keying to the pass and gives him space, still he makes so many things happen. Such great court vision and passing technique. Plus he´s also one of the better players in the league moving without the ball, for a PG that is averaging nearly 10 APG that´s a pretty unique quality.

[DaddyTorgo]

ugh

[whomario]

what a shot by Bryant ...

[MrBug708]

Heh

[stevew]

How bout them Clippers.

[Chief Rum]

How bout them Clippers.

Woulda been tough to win in Cleveland even with Kaman and Griffin and Telfair. Without them and in the middle of a tough East Coast trip? Fuggedaboutit. Not really the time to judge the Clips as a team.

[stevew]

Oh, I know.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Telfair

Him?

[Chief Rum]

Him?

He's not bad. And when losing him means you have to sign a D-League guy to be your backup PG, that's trouble.

[Chief Rum]

Oh, I know.

Interesting. Why make the comment then? I guess I shoulda said something when the Cavs escaped an even more injury riddled Clips team a couple weeks ago in LA, a game they shoulda lost.

[stevew]

Eh, just wondering how you give up 46 points in a quarter more than anything. West coming east, those teams have it rough especially during the end of a trip.

I actually did not realize you were missing so many rotation players.

[Chief Rum]

Eh, just wondering how you give up 46 points in a quarter more than anything. West coming east, those teams have it rough especially during the end of a trip.

I actually did not realize you were missing so many rotation players.

Cool deal. Actually, I missed that particular quarter and found out what happened-- the Cavs hit three pointers on seven straight possessions! I mean, damn. Not sure what you can do about that. When a team's that hot, what do you do, tackle them as they try to shoot? Very impressive.

The ending score doesn't show it, but the Clips actually got the score back down from 30 all the way to low 10's, which isn't bad as far as moral victories go after getting down that much.

[Karlifornia]

Chief Rum being defensive about Clippers basketball?

Just be happy they actually have light at the end of the tunnel, unlike my Warriors.

[whomario]

so, Kevin Durant... After another ridiculous scoring game (45 points on 16-21 shooting) : In his last 21 games he never once scored less than 25 (16 times 30+), shooting 54/52/87 in that stretch, going to the line nearly 11 times a game.
If he ever gets a decent feel for reading double teams and traps than he´s going to be unstoppable.

Vince Carter´s last 14 games : 9/3/2 on 28% shooting in 27 MPG, what the hell happened after new years ? He wasn´t particularly effective early in the season, but still dropped numbers along the tune of 19/5/4 on 40%in november and december :confused:
He was out a couple games, maybe a more serious lingering issue ? :confused:


Chris Paul is out at least a month, arthrospic surgery on his knee. I think it´s safe to say that this is it for the Hornets in terms of reaching the playoffs.
No5 San Antonio and No 11 Houston still only 2 wins apart.

meanwhile in the East No9 Milwaukee allready 3 and New York at 10 is 6 game back.

Boston has lost 11 of their last 17 games.

[MikeVic]

Vince Carter´s last 14 games : 9/3/2 on 28% shooting in 27 MPG, what the hell happened after new years ? He wasn´t particularly effective early in the season, but still dropped numbers along the tune of 19/5/4 on 40%in november and december :confused:
He was out a couple games, maybe a more serious lingering issue ? :confused:


Yeah, he's a crybaby pussy.

[Eaglesfan27]

Speaking of the 46 by the Cavs in the 1st quarter, I just saw the highlights and all I can say is wow.

Edit: Never mind, that was the Cavs as a team that shot 11 of 13. I thought it was LeBron alone who shot that at first.

[MrBug708]

Collison had a good game the other night for the Nornets

[DaddyTorgo]

so, Kevin Durant... After another ridiculous scoring game (45 points on 16-21 shooting) : In his last 21 games he never once scored less than 25 (16 times 30+), shooting 54/52/87 in that stretch, going to the line nearly 11 times a game.
If he ever gets a decent feel for reading double teams and traps than he´s going to be unstoppable.

Vince Carter´s last 14 games : 9/3/2 on 28% shooting in 27 MPG, what the hell happened after new years ? He wasn´t particularly effective early in the season, but still dropped numbers along the tune of 19/5/4 on 40%in november and december :confused:
He was out a couple games, maybe a more serious lingering issue ? :confused:


Chris Paul is out at least a month, arthrospic surgery on his knee. I think it´s safe to say that this is it for the Hornets in terms of reaching the playoffs.
No5 San Antonio and No 11 Houston still only 2 wins apart.

meanwhile in the East No9 Milwaukee allready 3 and New York at 10 is 6 game back.

Boston has lost 11 of their last 17 games.

Celtics are on a nasty skid. They really shoulda pulled out yesterday.

[RainMaker]

Shitty news on Paul. One of my favorite players to watch. I'm guessing this means they'll try and ship West out of town as soon as possible.

[RainMaker]

Celtics are on a nasty skid. They really shoulda pulled out yesterday.
What did you think of ESPN's column about how the Celtics should trade Ray Allen for something like Hinrich/Miller or Hinrich/Tyrus Thomas.

[DaddyTorgo]

What did you think of ESPN's column about how the Celtics should trade Ray Allen for something like Hinrich/Miller or Hinrich/Tyrus Thomas.

I didn't see it yet. Interesting idea. Then again, I haven't watched much at all so far this year - is Allen playing poorly? Is his 3PT% way down? Because he's gone on record as saying he wants to come back next year at a reduced price - so keeping him might not be the worst thing, if he can still shoot.

Hinrich is an interesting guy - not sure how well he ends up playing off-the-ball though? Because you cannot take the ball out of Rondo's hands...his mobility and speed is what creates the room for the other guys to get easy baskets. Tyrus Thomas seems to be a load of poop from what I've seen, and I'm not interested. Brad Miller is getting old and would end up on the bench behind Perkins. Not sure about salaries on those guys and cap-space though.

[Chief Rum]

Speaking of the 46 by the Cavs in the 1st quarter, I just saw the highlights and all I can say is wow.

Edit: Never mind, that was the Cavs as a team that shot 11 of 13. I thought it was LeBron alone who shot that at first.

Still pretty dern good. I think LeBron himself made 4 of them.

[LloydLungs]

Collison had a good game the other night for the Nornets

The Hornets are 5-4 this year with Paul out and Collison starting, including wins over Phoenix, Atlanta, and at Memphis to snap their 11-game home winning streak. I don't think they can hold up for those competitive 5-8 slots in the West over the long term without Paul, but the Hornets really nailed the draft last year between Collison and Marcus Thornton. You can't ask for much more out of the 21st and 43rd picks in an NBA draft.

I hate losing Paul but if there was a year for him to get hurt, this is it. This was always a "just get through it" season while we're waiting for Peja's and Mo Pete's horrible contracts to become expiring contracts.

[whomario]

Hinrich is an interesting guy - not sure how well he ends up playing off-the-ball though?

pretty good off the ball. No coincidence he pops up as a potential upgrade at PG for the Lakers about twice a season.

For Allen his long range shooting actually is down to just 34%, couldn´t tell from the 6,7 games i saw so far.
His scoring inside the arc has been pretty much consistent with last couple of years and he´s still a 16 PPG guy and still a pretty good defensive player.

But if you get Hinrich for Allen you loose your only really viable option to play 35 minutes at SG defending a guy like Kobe, Joe Johnson or (if he finds his form) Carter and contribute offensively at the same time. Even when his shot doesn´t fall, he forces people to work to guard him.
Maybe Tony Allen but he can´t shoot from deep at all, same goes for Marquis Daniels who i would´t trust as a starter as well.

they´d upgrade their bench but weaken their starting SG spot.

Thomas actually might work with the Celtics ...

[RainMaker]

I didn't see it yet. Interesting idea. Then again, I haven't watched much at all so far this year - is Allen playing poorly? Is his 3PT% way down? Because he's gone on record as saying he wants to come back next year at a reduced price - so keeping him might not be the worst thing, if he can still shoot.

Hinrich is an interesting guy - not sure how well he ends up playing off-the-ball though? Because you cannot take the ball out of Rondo's hands...his mobility and speed is what creates the room for the other guys to get easy baskets. Tyrus Thomas seems to be a load of poop from what I've seen, and I'm not interested. Brad Miller is getting old and would end up on the bench behind Perkins. Not sure about salaries on those guys and cap-space though.
Well Hinrich had a real slow start shooting wise but has picked it up of late since being given the starting SG spot. He's not as prolific a scorer as Allen, but is a much better defender and can even play some point when Rondo is on the bench. He's just a good all-around player who plays hard and has the ability to really shut down a threat from time to time (he has given Wade fits over the years).

Tyrus is actually a really interesting option for you. He's got a ton of raw talent and he's a fantastic shot blocker. He also can crash the offensive boards hard where you guys get killed. He runs the floor well, plays above the rim, and I think would really play well with a good passer like Rondo. He's frustrating at times because he can have a monster game, block 6 shots and then the next night seemingly look completely out of sync. But with a veteran team where he'd know his role, I think he could be a real helpful player. Not to mention he is still restricted I believe and you'd have a chance to keep him as a future PF.

Miller is a big guy who can hit outside shots and bang a few bodies around. Basically just gives you some depth and scoring from a big man. He's actually been pretty vital in the Bulls turnaround this month.

[RainMaker]

pretty good off the ball. No coincidence he pops up as a potential upgrade at PG for the Lakers about twice a season.

For Allen his long range shooting actually is down to just 34%, couldn´t tell from the 6,7 games i saw so far.
His scoring inside the arc has been pretty much consistent with last couple of years and he´s still a 16 PPG guy and still a pretty good defensive player.

But if you get Hinrich for Allen you loose your only really viable option to play 35 minutes at SG defending a guy like Kobe, Joe Johnson or (if he finds his form) Carter and contribute offensively at the same time. Even when his shot doesn´t fall, he forces people to work to guard him.
Maybe Tony Allen but he can´t shoot from deep at all, same goes for Marquis Daniels who i would´t trust as a starter as well.

they´d upgrade their bench but weaken their starting SG spot.

Thomas actually might work with the Celtics ...
I think defense is the bigger issue when you look at potential playoff matchups. Allen has lost a step defensively and Hinrich is a major upgrade on that side of the ball. Boston has shown they can't beat Atlanta without someone who can guard Joe Johnson and Wade and Carter are also potential matchups. I just don't think the Celtics can make the finals when opposing backcourts can run circles around Allen and Rondo. They need a fix somewhere and with Allen not being the perennial scorer he once was, it could make sense.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Allen is not terrible defensively, and Rondo is excellent.

[DaddyTorgo]

i guess thomas also might benefit (a la perkins) from Rondo drawing defenders and getting him easy buckets in the paint...

[RainMaker]

Allen is not terrible defensively, and Rondo is excellent.
I still believe Rondo's defense is overated. He gets steals and makes plays but he gambles a ton and gives up a lot of easy baskets. I haven't watched them a ton but when the Bulls have played them, Rose was able to basically do whatever he wanted to against Rondo.

[DaddyTorgo]

i heart ray-ray though. by all accounts he's a super class-act, and he's also living here in wellesley (as is rasheed wallace...whose son is in school with my brother apparently)

[DaddyTorgo]

I still believe Rondo's defense is overated. He gets steals and makes plays but he gambles a ton and gives up a lot of easy baskets. I haven't watched them a ton but when the Bulls have played them, Rose was able to basically do whatever he wanted to against Rondo.

:lol:

no way. not to say he couldn't improve on learning when to gamble successfully (which he will as he gets older), but it's not overrated