The Thread of the 2009-2010 NBA Season

[bulletsponge]

preach on Brother Troy, ive said for years Iverson is the most overrated player. Camby and Iverson are the poster children for "stats are overrated". they get their "numbers" at the expense of the team, and they take more than they give

and by years i mean a decade +

[jbergey22]

I know that mello is more than a capable passer. When he and Nene work together they are unstoppable. My point is when the Nuggets get behind or Mello feels the need to put up 40 the offense just stalls. I guess I do notice the standing around that you talk about but to me it seems like they are creating an ISO situation for Carmello.

The Nuggets have a lot of nice offensive weapons. Mello doesnt need to be scoring 30 points per game forcing shots.

Just watching the All Star game the other night when the East took the 141-139 lead someone I was watching the game with said "I bet the west wins because Chauncey and Dirk have been scoring at will." I replied "Ill take the East because they will design a play for Carmello and he wont think about passing."

Carmello is one of the great players in the league but to me he just doesnt get it yet. I like Carmello but I expect a lot from him because he is so talented. Talentwise IMO he is right there with LeBron. As far as game smarts Lebron is far ahead of him.

Also I agree with everything you have said about Iverson. He is #1 on my list of most overrated players of all time.

[TroyF]

Do a search for "Game Winning Shot Percentage" and you'll find Melo has been the best in the league over the last 5 years. By far and away the best in the league by the way.

Also, if you go to 82games.com last year and look up "clutch" stats, you'll find some revealing things. They defined clutch as +/- 5 points with 5 minutes or less in the game. Here are the top 5 players in points per 48:

Kobe - 56.7 points, 45.7% FG, 40% 3PT, 18.2 FTA
Lebron - 55.9 points, 55.6% FG, 42.1% 3PT, 20.8 FTA
Wade - 49.2 points, 47% FG, 28.1% 3PT, 22.3 FTA
Paul - 45.1 points, 49.4% FG, 37.5% 3PT, 17.5 FTA

Melo - 54.4 points, 56.5% FG, 58.3% 3PT (on 7 attempts per 48), 24.0 FTA

You can have your opinion, but when I look at the numbers above and watch the games, I think Carmelo "gets it" just fine.Don't get me wrong, this isn't a Melo love fest. I know the guy has certain problems.

I also know that in the decade before Melo came to Denver, the Nuggets hadn't made the playoffs one time in ten years. I know that they've made it every year Melo has been a Nugget. Just the fact of you saying "Carmelo won't think about passing" shows you simply don't watch Nuggets basketball a lot. You mention Dirk in you analysis and either ignore or don't care to know that Dirk is a far worse passer than Melo is.

Lebron is ahead of Melo. . . and the rest of the league. . . in athleticism. Yes, his basketball IQ is high, but he's simply got talent gifts others don't have. The guy is 6'8", 250 pounds, runs like a WR has the power of a full back and has ball handling skills comparable to a PG. He's a freak of nature. I'd argue that Melo "gets it" every bit as much as Lebron, but he will never have those physical gifts.

[jbergey22]

You mention Dirk in you analysis and either ignore or don't care to know that Dirk is a far worse passer than Melo is.



I did? I havent even made an analysis. It was a general observation from watching the All Star game the other night that Carmelo wouldnt pass. Was I right? He chose to try a double clutch three pointer with a man in his face over passing to 1 of 2 guys that were on fire at that point. Sure its the all-star game but its generally the same feeling I get a lot of times when I see him play.

If Billups is hot or JR Smith is hot is doesnt matter to Carmelo he is going to get his. Im sorry Nene you just got your 4 straight dunks it is my turn to shoot.

What physical gifts exactly does Lebron have that Carmelo doesnt? They are both 6 8', they are both rock solid, they both can jump out of the gym, they both are quick and fast as hell. Lebron may be a little stronger and have better straight line speed but I dont really feel Carmelo should be embarrassed athletically to Lebron.

In order to use a stat like you posted a larger sample size is needed. +/- 5 points in the last 5 minutes of a game over an 82 game season. Do you have the career marks of these guys? You could be cherry picking a stat for all I know.

[Groundhog]

jbergey I understand what you're saying, but that's the nature of team sport, basketball in particular. Carmello is a scorer, he's the best scorer on his team, and he's encouraged to score. When the ball is in his hands, he's thinking that he's going to be able to put it in the hoop, because that's what he does, and that's why he scores so many points. Nene might've just slammed it home 4 times in a row, but on any given possession I'd rather the ball be in Carmello's hands than Nene's if I need 2 points.

And Carmello is a gifted athlete, sure, but he is not LeBron James. Not even close. LeBron is built like a linebacker, with the quickness of a 5'11 waterbug PG. Melo is tall and has decent straight-ahead speed, but he doesn't have the same burst as LeBron, not by a longshot.

I may not have seen hundreds of Nuggets games over the years, but with the amount I've seen since Carmello has been there - let's say 20 or 30 + playoffs - he's just stupidly deadly in the clutch. I don't need stats to tell me that, I've seen it enough with my own eyes.

[jbergey22]

I understand what you guys are saying as well. Maybe I just expect more than I should from Carmelo. I watch Kobe and Lebron play and I never have a doubt they did their best to give the team best chance to win sometimes when I watch Carmelo I end up shaking my head with frustration.

I'm not really a Nuggets fan but I do like to bet on them. Usually when I bet on them and lose I feel it was Carmelo that didnt bring his best game. So you are right I am probably missing the big picture.

I should take that back. There was a playoff game a few years back where Kobe just threw in the towel. He was pouting about not having enough talent and he quit on his team in the 2nd half against the Suns.

[TroyF]

jbergey,

This is no BS, I've seen Carmelo throw the ball to Anthony Carter, Yakouba Diawarra and Linus Kleiza to hit game on the line shots. He was covered, they were open, he passed. (The first two guys missed, the last guy actually came through)

Carmelo's main job with the Nuggets is to score. He has secondary roles, but first and foremost, he needs to shoot the ball. Everything else the Nuggets do on offense is set up by Carmelo attacking the basket.

As for Melo quitting, I've seen it a handful of times in his career. Usually the scenario goes something like this: He gets beat to hell in the post for 2 and a half quarters, he picks up a stupid T, the guy who is beating him to hell in the post flops and draws a charge and Melo becomes a three point shooter.

Before anyone jumps in and screams refs are bad all the time and that Melo gets his share of calls, I know he does. I'm just telling you the recipe to make Melo start to shut it down.

I'll admit that I'm a Melo fanboy. I think he's been a very underappreciated player for a long time. My favorite Melo stats evolve around the 2006/7 playoffs.

Denver had a rough year. Kenyon Martin played 2 games. Nene was hurt for 1/2 the season. Melo and JR had long suspensions because of the brawl. yet the plugged away and won 45 games. In the East they'd have been battling for home court. In the West they played the 58 win Spurs in the first round. The Nuggets were taken out in 5 games by the Spurs. The Cavs went through the "L"east, their 50 wins gave them home court til the Pistons series. There they played a team just slightly better than they were. The Cavs ended up facing the Spurs. They were waxed in 4 games. The talk of the playoffs was Lebron. (I'll never, ever, ever forget that game against Detroit, wow)

Everyone looked at Melo as being a thug and a failure. Take a look at their numbers against the Spurs:

Melo - 5 games, 48% FG, 26.8 points per game, 19.6 shots per game
Bron - 4 games, 35.5% FG, 22 points per game, 22.5 shots per game.

Melo played as good of a series as he could have played against the Spurs. (By the way, Denver lost that series because of the selfish jack ass named AI, if AI had passed the ball more, Denver had a real shot to take that series at least to 7) Bron ran through a garbage conference and was the living God.

I understand WHY this happened. If I wasn't in Denver watching things, I'd have called Bron a winner and Melo a thug punk. What I don't understand is how Melo is now playing the way he did against the Spurs almost nightly, has elevated his game to superstar status, and still deals with the same BS he did in 2006. The good thing is the haters are fewer and farther between. The Nuggets are on enough now that most people see what kind of a player he is. But I still have that defense mechanism in me that wants to remind the doubters that he's a hell of a player too. If he'd gotten to play with Shaq in his prime, if he'd gotten to play in a garbage conference, if Dumars had been smart and picked him from the start and he'd have developed for a team in contention for multiple years. . . I don't think it'd have taken 6 years for people to realize how good he really is.

[samifan24]

George Karl has been diagnosed with cancer again. He will take a medical leave but hopes to only miss 9 games in the second half.

[Neuqua]

Looks like it's down to the Knicks or Bulls for McGrady.

Crossing my fingers.

[rjolley]

Looks like it's down to the Knicks or Bulls for McGrady.

Crossing my fingers.
For the Bulls to get him or not to get him?

[Neuqua]

I'll take that contract off our books after this year.

[TroyF]

I'm counting on McGrady. I have him on my fantasy team. A late round pick who could really help me out the second half. I don't like TMac the player, i don't like TMac if my team wants to win in the playoffs. But damn, I could use something like 15 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists for my last guard the rest of the year.

[Chief Rum]

All right, now I am swinging back full circle on this Clippers-Blazers deal, now that I see that both Outlaw and Blake are on expiring deals as well. I don't get the point of this deal at all. Was it just for the $3 M in cash? Typical Clippers. :(

[RainMaker]

All right, now I am swinging back full circle on this Clippers-Blazers deal, now that I see that both Outlaw and Blake are on expiring deals as well. I don't get the point of this deal at all. Was it just for the $3 M in cash? Typical Clippers. :(
The only upsides I see is that you do retain the bird rights to both Blake and Outlaw. Blake is really underated as a PG (might not be an NBA starter but a solid backup) and Outlaw does have some upside. But the likelihood of Sterling going over the cap are probably zero.

You also get to see what Craig Smith and DeAndre Jordan can do. And if you lose a ton of games, it just increases your chances of getting Wall.

It was probably a money move and I can see the frustration. But Camby is not a part of the future and the team wasn't going anywhere. I guess my issue is that I thought the Clippers could get more out of the deal. The Blazers had their backs up against the wall and after Haywood got traded, there weren't a ton of options left for them. I think you could have gotten a first rounder out of the deal which could be in the top 20.

[RainMaker]

I'll take that contract off our books after this year.
I think it depends on who we give up. The deal I see Marc Stein reporting has us giving up Miller, Tyrus, and Jerome James. Three expiring deals too. That move doesn't seem to help us much unless Hinrich or Salmons is going somewhere else. We'd be stuck with 4 SG and no help inside (especially with Noah being hurt).

I'm also going back and forth on Hinrich being dealt for expiring deals. While I'd love to have the money for free agency, I just have a bad feeling we're not going to get anyone anyway. I think he's a solid player and while his contract is a little high, I'd hate to see him traded and us end up not being able to sign a big name in the offseason. I'd be begging anyone in sight to take Salmons off our books for next year.

I've seen so many other deals floating around too. Tyrus for Harrington. Al Jefferson for Deng and Tyrus. Salmons or Hinrich to the Bucks for expiring deals. Hinrich to the Lakers for expiring deals.

I'm just hoping the front office has a plan in place. I can't seem to figure out what they're trying to do.

[whomario]

Bill Simmons anual trade-value column : Bill Simmons: 2010 NBA trade value column - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100208/one)

highly interesting if you don´t expect everything to be 100% rational.

btw : Very awesome idea by Andrew Bogut (found the article via the simmons column) : Bucks Fans Respond to Bogut’s Incentive - Off the Dribble Blog - NYTimes.com (http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/13/bucks-fans-respond-to-boguts-incentive/)

[Sublime 2]

From a couple of rumors I've read, it looks like the Celtics are close to acquiring Nate Robinson for Eddie House plus filler on both sides.

I think this would be a slight upgrade for the Celts bench, Eddie really hasn't been good for most of the season. At the very least, Nate provides a spark/change to a team really struggling right now.

Certainly not the be all end all of moves going on around the league, but still an upgrade IMO.

[Logan]

Any picks coming back to NY?

[MikeVic]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression Nate Robinson is not a big team player?

[DaddyTorgo]

interesting

[whomario]

He did keep his mouth shut during that period where D´Antoni didn´t play him though (at least from what i remember of it) and on the court, House´s job was to run arround and jack up shots for 15 minutes a night, not exactly a job description with a big emphasis on being a great teamplayer.
As the first guard off the bench for 20 minutes he can be very good if he accepts that role. The Celtics have huge trouble creating any scoring if 1 or 2 of their main guys take a breather.

[Logan]

Robinson can definitely put up a lot of points in not many minutes. If he buys into this being his shot, he could be a big pickup.

[Sublime 2]

I'm not sure exactly how BYC players work, but I know the Celtics wouldn't have any bird rights for Nate this offseason correct? But they are allowed to offer him his current contract plus 20%, even with them being over the cap?

I'm not even sure you'd want Nate around for another 4-5 years, but just thinking if he does work out for the C's, would we have to dip into the MLE?

[Big Fo]

I liked that Bogut article, it's cool that his idea seems to working out for the Bucks.

[whomario]

Best I can tell, Bird Rights are only lost when a player signs somewhere as a FA, not when he is traded.

[stevew]

His bird rights are gone cause he signed a qualifying tender IIRC.

[DeToxRox]

Apparently Darko just got swapped for Brian Cardinal.

[DeToxRox]

Washington Post is saying Jamison to the Cavs.

[DeToxRox]

"Early reports are that Antawn Jamison is headed to the Cleveland Cavaliers as a part of a three team trade.

Details haven't emerged as of yet, but early speculation is that Jamison is headed to Cleveland and newly acquired Drew Gooden is landing on a Western Conference roster. In return the Wizards are expected to get Zydrunas Ilgauskas and a first round pick."

[DeToxRox]

Cavs get Jamison and Telfair

Clippers get Drew Gooden

Wash gets Illgauskas, Al Thornton and Brian Skinner and Cavs 1st round pick.

[Chief Rum]

Cavs get Jamison and Telfair

Clippers get Drew Gooden

Wash gets Illgauskas, Al Thornton and Brian Skinner and Cavs 1st round pick.

WTH are we going to do with Gooden?

Board consensus is, this guy sucks. I certainly haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise. We give up a solid forward in Thornton and a steady, younger PG in Telfair for this guy? What am I missing? Is Dumbleavy just trading to trade now?

[Groundhog]

Woot, I was about to post earlier saying that out of Amar'e, Troy Murphy, and Jamison I'd rather Jamison if we want to win this year. I hope Z gets waived and signs back with Cleveland.

[Crapshoot]

Wait seriously? This is the Clippers saving money and not wanting to pay Telfair $2.7M next year; great deal for Was in getting Thornton + 1 pick; its not Hickson, but could be worse.

[Eaglesfan27]

Washington Post is saying Jamison to the Cavs.

This seems like a much smarter move than Amar'e. I think the Cavs just became the favorite to win the East.

[Groundhog]

Wait seriously? This is the Clippers saving money and not wanting to pay Telfair $2.7M next year; great deal for Was in getting Thornton + 1 pick; its not Hickson, but could be worse.

Yeah, Washington made out OK in this. Thornton has looked good at times but will be the odd-man out in LA, especially next season when Griffin is back. Assuming it's the Cavs own first rounder, it's going to be a low pick but hey, lately it seems that there have been some steals available in the late 1st round.

[CleBrownsfan]

I REALLY REALLY hope Washington buys out Z's contract. Z has been with the Cavs in the best and worst times - there were so many years when Z was the "man" as a Cavs before James. He has come a long way since his foot surgeries.

[bhlloy]

The Clippers ineptitude knows no bounds. Wouldn't surprise me if Dunleavy is getting back at the team for forcing him out as coach by putting together a team that Hughes won't be able to do anything with the rest of the season.

GREAT deal for the Cavs and not a bad return for Washington. Cavs favorite to win it all now I think and if nothing else it proves to Lebron they are serious about surrounding him with talent.

[stevew]

We just bought a borderline all star for money and the 30th pick in this years draft. I'm not sure I could dream of a better deal.

I'm amazed that in seeing negative reactions from cavs fans.

[Groundhog]

We just bought a borderline all star for money and the 30th pick in this years draft. I'm not sure I could dream of a better deal.

I'm amazed that in seeing negative reactions from cavs fans.

Haven't read the reaction from Cleveland fans, but I imagine most of that would stem from losing Big Z? I'm a huge fan of Big Z, but come on, our chances of winning a title just jumped dramatically... people need to think with their heads, not their hearts. And odds are good that Z comes back anyway.

[Groundhog]

Mo Williams back soon, ditto with Leon Powe. If Powe can give us anything off the bench, I'll be happy.

[Coffee Warlord]

Reports say John Salmons is going...somewhere. Team has told Salmons to stay at the team hotel tonight.

[Crapshoot]

I have no doubt Ilgauskas is coming back; you need the big man for a potential Lakers/Orlando matchup anyway. No way CLE makes the deal without an assurance he gets waived, but its a good question as to whether he considers any other options (heck, there are a lot of teams that could use a decent passing big man).

[Groundhog]

I have no doubt Ilgauskas is coming back; you need the big man for a potential Lakers/Orlando matchup anyway. No way CLE makes the deal without an assurance he gets waived, but its a good question as to whether he considers any other options (heck, there are a lot of teams that could use a decent passing big man).

I'm sure teams will express interest, but I'm thinking his relationship with both the city of Cleveland AND LeBron will keep him in Cleveland.

[DaddyTorgo]

I have no doubt Ilgauskas is coming back; you need the big man for a potential Lakers/Orlando matchup anyway. No way CLE makes the deal without an assurance he gets waived, but its a good question as to whether he considers any other options (heck, there are a lot of teams that could use a decent passing big man).

again - like i stated beforehand - i hate deals like this, or under-the-table agreements like this. they're shitty, and the league would be better off to eliminate them (say that a guy can't be traded and then resign with the team that traded him within say...6 months or something).

[Groundhog]

again - like i stated beforehand - i hate deals like this, or under-the-table agreements like this. they're shitty, and the league would be better off to eliminate them (say that a guy can't be traded and then resign with the team that traded him within say...6 months or something).

The entire contract system in the NBA is shitty, which is what causes deals like this. I doubt that's going to change anytime soon.

[RainMaker]

Reports say John Salmons is going...somewhere. Team has told Salmons to stay at the team hotel tonight.
To the Bucks for Kurt Thomas and Elson. Great deal for the Bulls as they get Salmons contract off the books for next year. They'll have as much room as anyone going into the Summer.

[RainMaker]

I have no doubt Ilgauskas is coming back; you need the big man for a potential Lakers/Orlando matchup anyway. No way CLE makes the deal without an assurance he gets waived, but its a good question as to whether he considers any other options (heck, there are a lot of teams that could use a decent passing big man).
I wouldn't be too sure. Dallas has interest in him with Dampier hurt. And I believe he has to wait 30 days before he can sign with Cleveland.

And I think that deal is good for Washington everyone involved except the Clippers. I think Thornton is a solid player and Jamison is a nice piece for Lebron to work with.

[DaddyTorgo]

30 days is ridiculous...it should be like 180

[Mantle2600]

Dallas can only offer vet minimum, cavs have more to offer with the BAE, and I dont know him but I would guess he would rather come back to the only team he has ever played for and where he has a home.

[Coffee Warlord]

To the Bucks for Kurt Thomas and Elson. Great deal for the Bulls as they get Salmons contract off the books for next year. They'll have as much room as anyone going into the Summer.

Indeed. Good deal, more cap room for the Bulls, and offloading a guy who, while I had nothing against, has not been a good contributor this year.

[Groundhog]

Duncan with 4-23 shooting today... sheesh. 26 rebounds but 11 of those off the offensive glass, I'd wager mostly his own misses. ;)

[sterlingice]

WTH are we going to do with Gooden?

Board consensus is, this guy sucks. I certainly haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise. We give up a solid forward in Thornton and a steady, younger PG in Telfair for this guy? What am I missing? Is Dumbleavy just trading to trade now?

Hate to use Twitter for news, but Adrian Wojnaroski is saying the Clips are buying out Gooden so it was purely for cap reasons.

http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA/statuses/9258046429

SI

[Groundhog]

Hard to tell what the Clips are doing. Obviously they are trying to save cash (as usual), but having said that, Thornton and Camby made for a clogged frontcourt with Kaman and Griffin, so I can sorta see why they'd move those guys, and the fact that they were reluctant to let go of Deandre Jordan - who has shown glimpses when given time - means that at least they aren't completely stupid and out to cut costs.

I just don't understand how they weren't able to acquire a few draft picks out of these deals though, at the least. Christ, even 2nd rounders.

[DeToxRox]

Hard to tell what the Clips are doing. Obviously they are trying to save cash (as usual), but having said that, Thornton and Camby made for a clogged frontcourt with Kaman and Griffin, so I can sorta see why they'd move those guys, and the fact that they were reluctant to let go of Deandre Jordan - who has shown glimpses when given time - means that at least they aren't completely stupid and out to cut costs.

I just don't understand how they weren't able to acquire a few draft picks out of these deals though, at the least. Christ, even 2nd rounders.

Obviously so they can take Tayshaun Prince from us for a bag of balls. I'll evne spring for postage.

[bhlloy]

I don't think the decision to move Camby and Thornton was a bad idea per se, but like you say to not get any draft picks or young guys back is absolutely criminal.

Cap space is nice, but when you are the joke of the league and not going to be able to use any of that cap space anyway and you have the cheapest owner in the country, FFS get some young guys and build around them. Griffin and Gordon is a good core to be competitive in 2-3 years.

As a sometime Clippers fan I see no rhyme or reason in any of these moves except to save Sterling some $$$. At this point I don't know why anyone is still going to the games.

[RainMaker]

It only makes sense if you are able to grab a stud free agent. I have to admit, while the Clippers reputation is in the shitter, you guys do have an intriguing team for a guy like Lebron. Kaman is a solid Center and Gordon and Griffin are young studs that can grow around Lebron. It would give him a solid nucleus for the next 4-5 years. It's a major market and L.A. is L.A.

If winning is priority #1 in his mind, the Clippers make a strong case to be his choice.

[Chief Rum]

It only makes sense if you are able to grab a stud free agent. I have to admit, while the Clippers reputation is in the shitter, you guys do have an intriguing team for a guy like Lebron. Kaman is a solid Center and Gordon and Griffin are young studs that can grow around Lebron. It would give him a solid nucleus for the next 4-5 years. It's a major market and L.A. is L.A.

If winning is priority #1 in his mind, the Clippers make a strong case to be his choice.

Yeah, I tossed something like this around for gristle near the start of the season. Gordon, Griffin, Kaman, B-Davis, a new lottery pick this year and an estimated $23-26 M in cap space--or enough to bring on two superstars. And in LA, competing head to head with the Lakers in the same building.

But, it's the Clippers...the bleepin' Clippers...

[whomario]

huge day ... First off : I hate the "30 day and returning", players shouldn´t be allowed to return for the rest of the season.
Really mindblowing that this loophole still exists.

If Z returns, how do they get everyone playing time btw ?

There´s no PT at SF for Jamison behind Lebron, you have Shaq,Varejao,Hickson and Z up front.


Another deal : Kevin Martin to the Rockets for Tracy MacGrady and Carl Landry ... (other throw ins : Rodriguez, Armstrong, Thomas for the Kings, Joey Dorsey for the Rockets)
Still a possibility the Knicks will be involved to get T-Mac. And maybe Rodriguez, Antoni is a huge fan of him.

Not too sure about this ... Landry is a favourite and was having an amazing season and also would have worked very well with a healthy Yao as he was extending his game ...
Rodriguez i love, but he clearly isn´t more than a fringe NBA player for now and has no place with Brooks/Lowry... Hilton Armstrong imo just doesn´t have the smarts to be more than a 10-15 mpg energy guy and kenny thomas isn´t getting younger or bigger ...

If Yao gets healthy this might just work Martin (when healthy ... The irony ...) can score off the ball and is a great scorer to take pressure off of Yao to be the man offensively. Plus Adelman coached him before.
Will be interesting to see.

But for this season i´m not sure swapping landry for Martin is a good thing as their perimeter scoring was ok overall...


as for game action :

- CJ Watson scores 40 (16-23 shooting). Only for Don Nelson ...Curry bounces back from a bad game to score 24 with 15 assists

- Memphis finally wins again, beating toronto. The +- numbers are hilarious and tell the story 100% : The Grizzlies bench just isn´t any good.

- Dwight Howard with a beastly game, 33/17, 7 blocks and only 1 TO.

- another strange thing about Duncan´s line : 23 FGAs without a FT ?

- Wade goes down with an injury

- Rockets beat the Bucks, Ariza (6/7) and Battier (6/6) combine to shoot 12 of 13 from downtown, whoa.
Landry 19/7 ...

[Neon_Chaos]

The Knicks are now working to get TMac from the Kings.

[sterlingice]

Two questions about the Kings-Rockets trade

Is there a Cot's style website for the NBA? That's a great site for baseball but with basketball contracts, it would be indispensable. The best I could find was (which is actually pretty good):
HoopsHype - NBA Salaries (http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm)

I don't know much about the spare parts coming back in the Kings trade. Anyone with a scouting report on Sergio Rodriguez and Hilton Armstrong?

SI

[whomario]

Rodriguez is basically everything you want in a PG if you don´t expect him to be able to shoot, finish or defend :D
Very good ball handler, impressive court vision and terrific passer. Decent agility and size, but small frame hurting him defensively.
And he isn´t a good shooter (although he showed some good things this season and scored efficiently), just doesn´t have the range. And inside his frame is hurting.
Shot selection is good though, not forcing it and looking to pass first.

Very exciting player when he gets it going and can put people in great scoring positions until the other team plays off of him, definitely a player worth taking a flyer on at only 23 years.

I kinda hope he lands on the Knicks though, wouldn´t be surprised if he´d get big minutes there... With the Rockets he´d be stuck behing Brooks/Lowry (when is he coming back ?)

If he ever learns how to shoot or defend he´ll be a starter, propably a good one as well.

[sterlingice]

I still have this thought that Morey is trying really hard to showcase Brooks this year to trade him because he doesn't really fit what the Rockets want to do. That way they can ditch him, get some more parts, and get a distributing PG who can dish down low to Yao and now they can kick back out to Martin.

SI

[whomario]

Don´t think Rodriguez would fit with a lowpost-scorer either i think as he needs action at the top of the key to create passing angles, is best on the break and in early offense and a great Pick and Roll guy. He´d work nicely with Scola, work wonders for him (Scola himself was the best Pick and Roll finisher in Europe for years and would be great there with a PG that could, you know, pass the pall).
I agree that Brooks doesn´t work if your focus is on Yao and also doesn´t work next to Martin at all. He´d need a SG with playmaking ability next to him.
You won´t win much if your best passer in the starting lineup is Battier (who is a great passer but doesn´t move with the ball) or Ariza (who is to uneffective to handle the ball a lot).

Brooks would have been the ideal 20-25 MPG bench PG/scorer behind a PG that could defend 2s (and play with Brooks), will never be available for that role for the Rockets once he gets a new contract plus now he thinks of himself as a starter.

[TroyF]

Rodriguez would get a lot of burn with the Knicks. I think the Rockets now have some comedy gold. You get Battier, one of the top defensive players in the league, playing with one of the single worst defenders in basketball. (Martin) Not that I don't like the deal. Martin will improve the Rockets offense immeasurably.

Loved the Cavs trade. Didn't really think a lot of the Mavs one. It'll be interesting to see what happens the rest of the day. Rumors are Denver wants Ben Wallace. The Lakers look like they'll hold serve. (I think that's a mistake, I think their PG situation is dreadful. I know they won last year with it and they may again, but if there are options out there to improve it, I think you have to look at them)

Stoudamire likely stays a Sun. This is REALLY good news for those of us in the Thunder division. The Thunder get the Suns first round pick and it is unprotected. If Amare stays, they likely stay in the playoffs and the pick is low. If they deal Amare, they likely fall out of the playoffs and if OKC were to get lucky in the lottery. . . . I really don't want to think about that.

[Chief Rum]

The Lakers look like they'll hold serve. (I think that's a mistake, I think their PG situation is dreadful. I know they won last year with it and they may again, but if there are options out there to improve it, I think you have to look at them).

I tend to agree that the Lakers should try to improve there if they have the opportunity. That said, the triangle doesn't really use a PG in the traditional sense. A PG as one is now defined is only needed for the Lakers to bring the ball up and make the first pass, and that be anyone competent enough to bring the ball up (Fisher first choice, with Farmar and Brown off the bench; Kobe and Odom can also bring it up if need be). None of the options are true lockdown shooters, though, and that would be the idea sort of get for the Lakers to go after. Even if it's a SG, if it's someone who is very dangerous form outside, that would improve the offense.

On defense, they still don't have anyone to guard the quick, smaller guards in the West (Paul, Roy, Williams, etc.), but they're quick enough to at least be competent in front of older/slower PGs like Billups and Nash. And the offguard position is one they're well suited for defensively, with several decent to very good options for shutting down swingman roles.

I don't tihnk the Lakers' issue is getting a PG per say, but just the fact that their talent lead may have been trumped yesterday with the Jamison deal. They can no longer count on always being the more talented team on the floor, and that might necessitate a deal.

[albionmoonlight]

I heard a Bosh for Bynum rumor a while back. That one seemed to make a lot of sense. The Lakers get Bosh, making them a superteam for the next 2-4 years. And, since Bosh is leaving anyway, Toronto gets a potential franchise center for him.

Why didn't this deal happen? I must be missing something.

[MikeVic]

I heard a Bosh for Bynum rumor a while back. That one seemed to make a lot of sense. The Lakers get Bosh, making them a superteam for the next 2-4 years. And, since Bosh is leaving anyway, Toronto gets a potential franchise center for him.

Why didn't this deal happen? I must be missing something.

I like Bosh a lot and I'm in denial that he's leaving, that's why. :(

[whomario]

according to yahoo´s adrian wojnarowski the Bobcats get Tyrus Thomas and give up Flip Murray, Law and a future 1st.
Likely would mean that DJ Augustin stays a Bobcat.

http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA/status/9292019102

T-Macs agent is apparently putting huge pressure on the Kings to involve the Knicks, he also represent a few Kings players ...

update :

Kings send TMac and Rodriguez to NY, Kevin Martin, Jared Jeffries and picks to HOU and Larry Hughes, Landry and Dorsey to Sac, source says

Jeffries, ugh ...

[TroyF]

ESPN reporting TMac trade done:

Knicks get Rodriguez, TMac
Rockets get Martin, Jeffries, Hill, right to swap 2011 1st rounders with Knicks, 2012 1st round pick from Knicks (unprotected)

Kings get Carl Landry, Joey Dorsey, Larry Hughes

[JeeberD]

Oh man, not Carl... :(

[Neon_Chaos]

So the Knicks get rid of Jeffries' contract and bring in a huge expiring contract in McGrady.

How much money are they going to be able to play with in next year's free agency? Enough to pull in two max contracts?

[JPhillips]

ESPN reporting TMac trade done:

Knicks get Rodriguez, TMac
Rockets get Martin, Jeffries, Hill, right to swap 2011 1st rounders with Knicks, 2012 1st round pick from Knicks (unprotected)

Kings get Carl Landry, Joey Dorsey, Larry Hughes

NY better land two stars that can coexist this summer or those picks will look really bad.

[whomario]

Knicks should be at about 21 mio in payroll this summer. 11.5 of those go to Eddy Curry :D
They also only have 5 players signed including Curry...

edit : scratch 2.5 for hill off the book and make that 4 players including Curry.

2 max contracts possible but then they are going to have to fill it out with minimum guys. They have to resign their rights to guys like Lee as well or they are on the books 3-times their current wage until getting a new contract ...

[DaddyTorgo]

wow. crazy day!

[Neon_Chaos]

Off of Yahoo Sports NBA twitter page:

Heat-Jazz-Wizards are apparently working on a deal.

[sterlingice]

NY better land two stars that can coexist this summer or those picks will look really bad.

And it's going to be even funnier when those two "stars" are Johnson and Stoudamire or two others of that "paid a max contract but not a franchise player" guys. (I believe this thought was stolen from Bill Simmons trade column yesterday)

If I were an elite player, why the heck would I go to New York? If I'm LeBron or Wade? I can pick where I want to go and that organization is a disaster.

SI

[Coffee Warlord]

Charlotte Gets: Tyrus Thomas
Bulls Get: Acie Law, Flip Murray, Protected 1st

[jbergey22]

If Z returns, how do they get everyone playing time btw ?

There´s no PT at SF for Jamison behind Lebron, you have Shaq,Varejao,Hickson and Z up front.


I would assume they would shift Lebron to shooting guard to get Jamison his PT.

[JPhillips]

Off of Yahoo Sports NBA twitter page:

Heat-Jazz-Wizards are apparently working on a deal.

Who do the Wizards have left?

[RainMaker]

Kind of bummed that the Knicks were able to free up the cash. That's more competition for the Bulls. Some had reported here that the only reason the Bulls were interested in the T-Mac sweepstakes is because they wanted to stop the Knicks from being able to clear the Jefferies contract.

[Groundhog]

I would assume they would shift Lebron to shooting guard to get Jamison his PT.

I would assume Hickson's minutes would just dry up, which is OK. It's nice being able to get him time right now, but he's the 3rd best PF on this team.

[RainMaker]

Charlotte Gets: Tyrus Thomas
Bulls Get: Acie Law, Flip Murray, Protected 1st
Kind of iffy on the deal. Would have rather had Al Harrington from the Knicks for the rest of the season. However, if we are throwing in the towel for this season, getting the Bobcats 1st round pick is nice. Will leave us with two picks in the 10-20 range next year.

[Groundhog]

Charlotte Gets: Tyrus Thomas
Bulls Get: Acie Law, Flip Murray, Protected 1st

So, at the end of the day, Bulls traded LaMarcus Aldridge for Acie Law, Flip Murray, and a Protected 1st. :(

[RainMaker]

So, at the end of the day, Bulls traded LaMarcus Aldridge for Acie Law, Flip Murray, and a Protected 1st. :(
We also got Victor Khryapa out of the deal!

[Groundhog]

We also got Victor Khryapa out of the deal!

And a hell of a season he's having too! For CSKA Moscow, anyhow. :D

[Groundhog]

Ronnie Brewer to the Griz for a draft pick? Nice move, that'll help their bench. Hasn't had the best year for the Jazz, but I think he's a nice player.

[Logan]

So, at the end of the day, Bulls traded LaMarcus Aldridge for Acie Law, Flip Murray, and a Protected 1st. :(

We also got Victor Khryapa out of the deal!

And the right to not give Aldridge $65 million at the height of a plummeting market.

[MikeVic]

And a hell of a season he's having too! For CSKA Moscow, anyhow. :D

And he's apparently playing with Trajan Langdon, who's shooting 50% from behind the arc.

[Groundhog]

And he's apparently playing with Trajan Langdon, who's shooting 50% from behind the arc.

Yeah, CSKA Moscow are a powerhouse. Former Jayhawk Sasha Kaun in the middle, Khryapa at the 4, Siskauskas (great Lithuanian wing) at the 3, Langdon, and Russian/American J.R. Holden at PG. Former NJ Net Zoran Planinic and former NBAer Pops Mensah-Bonsu off the bench.

Seen a few of their games over the past couple of months, watching Euro basketball at their level is very entertaining.

[Groundhog]

And the right to not give Aldridge $65 million at the height of a plummeting market.

They overpaid, yeah, but Aldridge is young and talented. There are plenty of worse players locked into contracts like his. He played well with Roy out.

[Groundhog]

Bulls get: Hakim Warrick, Joe Alexander
Bucks get: John Salmons

Warrick and Alexander are both expiring contracts (hence the trade), but Warrick is probably the best scoring PF the team has had since Elton Brand?

[Groundhog]

Rumour of another minor trade:

Bucks get: Royal Ivey, Primoz Brezec, 2nd rounder
76ers get: Jodie Meeks, Francisco Elson

I think Jodie Meeks is one to watch. He'll get minutes in Philadelphia and might prove a steal. Just no minutes for him in Milwaukee.

[MrBug708]

The Lakers look like they'll hold serve. (I think that's a mistake, I think their PG situation is dreadful. I know they won last year with it and they may again, but if there are options out there to improve it, I think you have to look at them)

They wanted Kirk H, but the Bulls didnt want either Sasha or Walton so the Lakers couldnt afford it

[TroyF]

As I see it:

Winners at trade deadline:

1) Cavs. They got better, Pretty simple equation really: The Lakers, Celtics, Magic, Nuggets, etc did not get better.

2) Knicks, Bulls, Heat, Clippers - All of them have cap space for the monumental FA class. They may not strike it rich, but they all gave themselves a chance.

3) Blazers - I don't like Camby at all, but they needed a rebounder and they got one.

4) Anyone who doesn't want to see the Thunder go on a title spree. They may still go on that title spree, but if the Suns had dealt Amare and faded and the Thunder had the lottery balls bounce their way, they'd be ridiculously scary to deal with.

5) TMac. He gets to go play for the next 20+ games and show if he has anything left. Better than sitting out all year and getting nothing on the open market.

6) Rockets. I don't like how they lost Landry, but Martin is a big upgrade for them. They also got a kid who might be a fit with a change of scenery and assets in the Knicks picks they can use down the road.

LOSERS

1) Suns. A week ao they could have gotten Iggy in a deal for Amare. 3 days ago they could have gotten salary relief. Now they have him for another first or second round playoff exit and if he gets hurt, he'll exercise his 17 million dollar option for next year. Ugly. Really, really ugly.

2)) Pacers/Sixers - You have two teams who are mediocre and were too scared to take any type of risk in the trade market. Look boys, you need to rebuild and until you realize that, you are going to be at the bottom of the conference. Stupid.

3) Clippers fans. Sorry Chief, but they've given you the one dangerous thing for any damaged fan. . . hope. As a Clippers fan, I'd think they have a shot at Bron. A young nucleus, an upcoming lottery pick, Blake coming in next year. . . yeah, Bron will probably sign there, then him and Blake will go up for a rebound in a preseason game and blow their achilles. Hope is a dangerous thing.

[bulletsponge]

im sad the rockets lost Landry, he was one of the few NBAers i like. but if the Knicks live up to their end, it might be a lottery pick :)

[sterlingice]

im sad the rockets lost Landry, he was one of the few NBAers i like. but if the Knicks live up to their end, it might be a lottery pick :)

I have yet to read anyone who dislikes this trade on the whole which is what really makes me happy. My favorite might be Bill Simmons on twitter:
"Serious question for @dmorey (http://twitter.com/dmorey) - were you wearing a black ski mask and holding a gun when you made that Knicks trade? "

SI

[Groundhog]

Scores tied, 43 seconds left to go in Cavs-Nuggs, and LeBron is having a fairly OK game with 37-12-15.

[Groundhog]

dola

No Jamison.

[k0ruptr]

great game

[Groundhog]

I'm thinking for this next shot, let's have someone who ISN'T LeBron try their hand at a 3?

[Groundhog]

Wow.

[k0ruptr]

wow, great play by Lebron, and now Anthony! wowowowow

1.9 left. Carmelo with the fkn dagger.

[Groundhog]

Is it time to quote the Carmello clutch discussion from a page or 2 ago in this thread yet? :(

[k0ruptr]

HOLY !!! wow, james almost made that. SOB.

[k0ruptr]

first loss in over a month for the Cavs. haha. these guys are going to be so so good when Jamison starts. geez.

[Radii]

Only saw the overtime, but that was damn entertaining.

[TroyF]

Is it time to quote the Carmello clutch discussion from a page or 2 ago in this thread yet? :(

Well, Melo did it all in the clutch tonight. He passed the ball multiple times. His spin move on James with the game on the line in regulation should have been an and one. (Lebron still looking for his jock by the way) Then he hit the game winner.

No, he's not bron and never will be. But he's a special player. A very, very special player.

[stevew]

Lemme guess. Antawn couldn't play tonight cause the clippers guys didn't report in time? Or was drew gooden at fault?

[jbergey22]

Is it time to quote the Carmello clutch discussion from a page or 2 ago in this thread yet? :(

I dont recall any of that conversation being about how clutch he was.

If I remember correct is was about how he loses interest at times and doesnt seem to want to pass at times with a how athletic they are discussion on the side.

[larrymcg421]

I really hate Rasheed Wallace.

[DaddyTorgo]

signing wallace and trading house are/will be the death knell of this team. along with Garnett's knees having collapsed too of course.

[whomario]

Robinson is a good pickup imo. Sometimes you have to take risks and go with potential ability instead of staying put with a know commodity, this is one of those cases. Robinson gives them a player than can create his own shot and can break down defenses, something no one outside of Rondo and Pierce could do before.


Rodriguez in New York and playing for D´Antoni :) Really glad for the guy, the knicks wanted him for a long time and D´Antoni was a fan of hisas well.

And Milicic gets one last shot apparently, will indeed report to the Timberwolves after Kahn talked to him in New York (he was all set to negotiate a buy out in New York and join a team in Europe to get adjusted before next season) and will get minutes.
I am again hoping for the best, even though i´m no longer holding my breath.

Brewer to the Grizzlies is a good pickup. A shooter would have been better, but with that bench you can´t be picky. Maybe they casn still challenge for the POs.

Charlotte looks like a dangerous team in the first round. But why did those morons try to trade Nazr Mohammed ? The guy has been incredibly productive this year and a solid option at the 5 ... And they wanted to trade him for fringe players ...

For the Rockets for the rest of the year it´ll be interesting what the rotation at SG/SF will look like. I´d bring Ariza off the bench personally, but what do i know.
Hill should pick up quite a few minutes, although i first think that Andersen will play more as well.

[Arles]

I don't know about the Suns making out poorly. If they can either keep Amare (talking about an extension @ $14 per) or trade him in the offseason, I think they make out OK. Iguadala has an awful contract and is a SG who can't hit 3s (not exactly a blessing for the Suns' system). And the poo poo platters offered by everyone else left little to be desired.

If Phoenix had traded Amare for a PF with the ceiling of a 7th man (Hickson), what amounts to an early 2nd round pick (Cle's #1 this season) and the old bones of Z - then they would have been bigtime losers. Even the Iguadala swap (which was never confirmed) would have been bad. He would make as much as Amare in the next 4 seasons (if the Suns extended him), shoots 30% from 3 and plays a spot easily replaceable (guard/SF in the Suns system). Heck, Raja Bell, Jared Dudley, 90-year old Grant Hill, Eddie House and numerous others have had career seasons in that spot.

[TroyF]

Arles,

The Suns not making a move was incredibly dangerous. You have an injury plagued PF who has a 17 million dollar option for next season. Say Amare has another big injury before the end of the year. You are now going to pay him 17 million dollars next season to sit out and then have to decide weather to pay for an extension or not.

They had chances to get quality players now. If they sign him to the extension, then they win. If he takes off, even if they pull off a sign and trade, they aren't going to come out with as much as they would have if they'd pulled it off now.

[whomario]

granted that he had major knee surgery but other than that he had an eye injury, that´s injury plagued ? :confused:
Other than that layoff due to the eye injury/surgery he missed only 3 games in the last 4 seasons.

How do you know they won´t get more in a sign and trade than they would have gotten now ? As said, Igoudala is a lateral move at best and no one to build a team around.
The cavs offer ? Pretty sure they get more than that in a sign and trade.

If he just takes off ? Yeah, that´s bad. But then again the Suns at least didn´t take on a player just for the sake of taking on a player. I wouldn´t want Igoudala on my team at that salary for free, much less trade a guy like Stoudemire for him.
And it´s not like i´m high on Stoudemire´s ability either.

[sterlingice]

I'm trying to remember if I ever saw a trade for Amare that was worth anything.

SI

[Chief Rum]

Sign and trades...

These just aren't common in the NBA anymore; there's probably some reason related to the cap and last CBA. Regardless, I wouldn't count on a sign and trade happening.

[TroyF]

granted that he had major knee surgery but other than that he had an eye injury, that´s injury plagued ? :confused:
Other than that layoff due to the eye injury/surgery he missed only 3 games in the last 4 seasons.

How do you know they won´t get more in a sign and trade than they would have gotten now ? As said, Igoudala is a lateral move at best and no one to build a team around.
The cavs offer ? Pretty sure they get more than that in a sign and trade.

If he just takes off ? Yeah, that´s bad. But then again the Suns at least didn´t take on a player just for the sake of taking on a player. I wouldn´t want Igoudala on my team at that salary for free, much less trade a guy like Stoudemire for him.
And it´s not like i´m high on Stoudemire´s ability either.


OK, so how do you put any fans in the seats? Who do you build around? If Amare bolts, they are screwed. If he gets hurt, they are screwed.

As far as Iggy goes, I think he's one of the most underrated players in basketball. If you put him on a team with shooters, his offense will look a lot better. Put him on a team with clankers from the outside and his biggest weakness is exposed. His offense will never be at an elite level because of how he plays on defense. While guys like Melo and Bron pick their spots on when to D up on the best player on the court, Iggy does it every night. What you get is an elite defensive player, a guy who plays 40 minutes a night, a guy who has missed 6 games in 6 years, and a guy who will do every little thing to help you win basketball games.

I don't think the Suns will get anything remotely close to that in a summer trade. If Kerr had pushed the right buttons, I think he could have gotten him. Or they could have shipped him for expirings and an actual real live first round pick so they could start the rebuilding process.

We'll see how it plays out..

[Arles]

They had their choice of 2-3 poo platters with either bad contracts, over-rated prospects (ie, Hickson) or end of the first round picks (marginal value at best). If they moved Amare for the Cleveland deal, there's a chance the team's fan base gets fed up and quits watching.

Now, in order for the Suns to "get burnt" - all of the following need to happen:

1. Amare decides not to extend with Phoenix before the offseason (rumors are he wants a 4-year at $14 mil per and the Suns are offering a 2-year at $14 mil per - not all that far off).
2. Amare decides to not pick up his option for $17+ million for next season - more than any team could sign him to in the initial year.
3. Either Miami or New Jersey agree to make him a max FA offer - little chance Chicago (want Bosh), New York (Mike D doesn't get along) or the Clippers (have Griffin) will.
4. Amare agrees to accept that offer instead of working out a sign-and-trade for potentially more money with a team like Houston or other contender.

I would put the chance that all 4 happen at around 15-20% max. Plus, there's some risk with Amare declining his option in that if Miami decides to sign Boozer and the Nets go a different direction - there may not be a $14+ million option for him. Then, he's forced to come back to Phoenix without his $17 million option or take a lot less money somewhere else.

But, even if the "worst case" happens - Amare finishes the season for Phoenix and then signs a max deal with Miami. The Suns then have $39 million on the books for 8 players. They also have a $14 million expiring deal in Jason Richardson. So, they can either sign a $10-12 million FA and deal Richardson for a quality player and picks to a team freeing up salary. Or, they can play through a down next season and end up with a good pick in 2011, only $17-19 million on the cap and decent group of young players + Nash (Dragic, Clark, Lopez, Barbosa, Dudley, Amundson, multiple picks).

Again, giving up the somewhat likely chance to keep Amare for Hickson and the 31st pick or expirings and a mid-round pick from Miami is silly. Moving one of the top offensive forwards in the game for a similar contract SG (Iguodala) doesn't make much sense either - esp when the team already has Barbosa, Richardson, Hill and Dudley and would have no post presence without Amare.

At the end of the day, the Suns were smart to hold on to Amare and they will have numerous options no matter how this offseason plays out. Trading Amare for crap or bad contracts in a panic move gives them significantly fewer options - all for the chance to watch JJ Hickson become Hakim Warrick or get a scrub player at pick 30 in the draft.

[TroyF]

Arles,

You make good points. I just don't like it. Even if Hickson sucks (and I do think he does), he's a small contract and has some talent and value on the trade front. We'll see what happens this offseason. I really wouldn't put anything past Amare though. I'd move your odds up over 35%.

I really look at Iggy like I look at Kenyon Martin. Is he overpaid? Yeah. Does he do things that can help a good team win a title? Yeah. If you are going to have an overpaid guy (and if Amare gets the max, you've already said he'd be overpaid earlier in the thread), wouldn't you rather have a guy who never misses a game, plays his ass off night in, night out and does a few things exceptionally well as opposed to a guy who takes nights or weeks off when he isn't feeling it?

Again, we'll see how it plays out.

[Arles]

There's always a risk with any situation/move. There's a risk that the Suns moved Amare for Hickson and a pick - Hickson busts and the pick ends up never playing for the team.

I agree that Amare isn't a max player, but $14 mil a season isn't a max contract (and that's what they are talking about now). Plus, if I'm going to slightly overpay, I'd rather it be for an effective PF than an effective SG. The former is a lot harder to find in the NBA.

If the Suns sign Amare to a 4-year extension, I won't be thrilled - but I won't be upset. Pretty much every other moved discussed here involving him would have me be fairly disgusted as a Suns fan.

[Arles]

AZ republic is reporting the Suns (Sarver-Kerr) had a good meeting with Amare and the extension talks are back on. Here's what Amare said today:

"Obviously, I want to have a sense of security," Stoudemire said. "With that being said, I'm not really going to get into the years and dollar signs right now. Ultimately, we just want to make sure that we both accomplish the decision we make and go from there. We haven't got to an agreement yet but we're getting there."

"I have a certain bond and loyalty in the city of Phoenix," Stoudemire said. "With that being said, staying here would be a great option for me."
The article said there's a good chance that an extension is reached before the offseason hits.

[mauchow]

as long as they can put food on their tables for their family

[Neon_Chaos]

as long as they can put food on their tables for their family

How's Latrell Sprewell supposed to feed his family on a 3-year $21-mil contract!?

[whomario]

Lebron James has been averaging 11 Assists over his last 13 games btw (and 7 in the first quarter today) which is kind of ridiculous no matter how much he dominates the ball and even with the 4 TOs a game ... 7 again today. Really an incredible player. Not that it is news, but still hits me every now and then ...

Jamison off the bench for today.

For Washington Andray Blatche really has tons of upside, as does Javale McGee imo (why in the world didn´t he get PT for a team like the Wizards ? I mean, his rookie season wasn´t that bad at about 14/9 with 2+ blocks per 36)

Jamison has been blocked on basically every attempt so far, almost funny :D

[CleBrownsfan]

My god - Jamison is having a horrible game - 0-10 from the field so far. Bad game for the Cavs overall. Z come back please.. ;)

[jbergey22]

For Washington Andray Blatche really has tons of upside, as does Javale McGee imo (why in the world didn´t he get PT for a team like the Wizards ? I mean, his rookie season wasn´t that bad at about 14/9 with 2+ blocks per 36)



Blatche has no consistency at all. He has shown these flashes over the past couple of years but he wont maintain it. Hes basically Gerald Wallace without the toughness.

[Radii]

Isiah Thomas was on PTI today and said the following:

"The jury is probably still out on whether I would be a good pro coach or not. I had a good run in Indiana and was on my way to having a good run in New York"


That's unedited and he didn't qualify that statement anymore. LOL?

[whomario]

kind of looking forward to see McGrady play again, D´Antoni allready said that he´ll start right away.
Throw in Sergio Rodriguez and and getting even smaller up fron and see what happens :D

[Ironhead]

McGrady absolutely balling in NY tonight. 19 points at the half with 3 assists, including one laser bounce pass up the floor on the break. This is the most unselfish the team has played in months.

[whomario]

McGrady with 19 on 7-12 shooting at the half, add in a couple beautiful assists. I´d be so glad if he really would come back. Didn´t look particularly agile, but that is to be expected and he did a great job picking his spots and his basketball-IQ is just so high that i could see him finding his role as a pick and roll specialist and contributing even with lesser athleticism and without great shooting ability.

martin off the bench for now in houston.

[Neon_Chaos]

TMac and House are having outstanding debuts for the Knicks.

[DaddyTorgo]

TMac and House are having outstanding debuts for the Knicks.
:(

[Neon_Chaos]

Ok, if TMac takes and makes the game winner for this one, the Knicks have officially found a new hero.

[whomario]

nice little game between the knicks and thunder, going to OT. Thunder very sloppy on defense, but the knicks did a good job taking advantage of the mismatches they create with that crop of 6´8, 6´9 guys at the 2 and 3 and 4 spots.
Antoni blew it by playing without a PG at the end ...
T-Mac 26/4/4 so far.
eddie house with 19, lee 26.

rodriguez with some good plays as well.

Durant with a bad 2nd half guarded by Gallinari (don´t think that was really the reason though ;) ) but then nails the game-tying 3.

random thought : Eddie House´s release is ridiculous.

[Neon_Chaos]

Gallinari, you ass.

[Ironhead]

Gallinari, you ass.

Can't disagree more. The play was defended well and Gallo got a bailout pass from Lee. Was he supposed to make an off balance three from about 27 feet out? It was really just a poor play from D'Antoni out of the timeout.

[Ironhead]

Tough loss but that was the best effort the Knicks have shown since early January. Durant was just a killer down the stretch and the Thunder are a good team so I have to hand it to them. I don't see too many more wins the rest of the year because the same glaring problem is there - just no resistance in the paint. If the team shows this effort it will make the last 28 games more bearable though.

Really liked what I saw out of Sergio Rodriguez tonight. Played miles above and beyond anything Duhon has shown this season. Sergio showed some really impressive court vision. I am hoping he quickly takes Duhon's minutes for the rest of the year.

[RainMaker]

Just got back from the Bulls game and saw them slaughter the Sixers and pick up their 4th in a row. Vinny is starting to look like a decent coach. Did not expect us to be 3 games over .500 at this point.

Not sure if there are any 76ers fans here, but what a pathetic team. They just play with zero emotion and didn't seem to care. Bulls had 11 dunks in the game, free reign around the hoop, and went on a 29-1 run at some point. Turnovers were 15-3 which isn't just the Bulls playing well, but the 76ers just not making any effort on defense. It's one thing to be a bad team, it's another to just completely mail a game in.

And Kirk Hinrich became the Bulls franchise leader in 3-point field goals tonight. One of my favorite players this franchise has ever had.

[Chief Rum]

Not sure if there are any 76ers fans here, but what a pathetic team. They just play with zero emotion and didn't seem to care... It's one thing to be a bad team, it's another to just completely mail a game in.

The Clippers have done this as well, which frustrates me to no end.

That said, I still regard Elton Brand, along with his gloryhound agent, as a traitor for the crap he pulled two offseasons ago, and he deserves to play for a crap team. Nice to see karma show up every now and then and remind the asshats they don't run everything in the world.

[whomario]

Rockets looked terrible defensively tonight. Actually they´ve been bad all season, now you really see how valuable and key Yao in the middle is for that defense. They allways were a To 3-5 defensive team with him, no matter what players played around him.
Now he´s gone and the defense is barely league average, worse on many nights.
It´s not like Hayes is a bad defender (he´s actually amazing man defender) and Battier/Ariza is as good as it gets on the wing, Lowry is a good defender and Scola is ok.
But the schemes just fall apart. And Brooks is a huge part of the problem, terrible defender...

Martin looked off tonight. Played with a ton of effort, but his shot was really, really, really off.
Scola was great, as he´s been all season. If he had a decent PG next to him (Brooks is a decent player and a good scorer, but a terrible PG) who could run the Pick and Roll he could average 20 a game.
For the Pacers, Granger couldn´t miss and Ford had propably his best game of the season.

[Chief Rum]

A lane clogging huge center with the ability to modify and reject shots is still the one proven and true way to make a lackluster defense look great.

[whomario]

A lane clogging huge center with the ability to modify and reject shots is still the one proven and true way to make a lackluster defense look great.

yep, especially if that guy doesn´t care if he gets scored or even dunked on and has a high basketball IQ. God, i hope he comes back successfully ...

[Chief Rum]

yep, especially if that guy doesn´t care if he gets scored or even dunked on and has a high basketball IQ. God, i hope he comes back successfully ...

I always liked Yao, but as a fan of a Western Conference team, I can't really wish the Rockets well. ;)

But, yeah, I hope Yao gets his feet right and returns next year with a flourish.

[RainMaker]

The Clippers have done this as well, which frustrates me to no end.

That said, I still regard Elton Brand, along with his gloryhound agent, as a traitor for the crap he pulled two offseasons ago, and he deserves to play for a crap team. Nice to see karma show up every now and then and remind the asshats they don't run everything in the world.
Trust me on this, you are very lucky not to be stuck with Elton Brand. He has one of the worst contracts in the NBA. I just watched Taj Gibson and Hakim Warrick destroy him last night.

[whomario]

Very intrigued by the upcoming Cavs-Magic matchup starting at this very moment.

[sterlingice]

yep, especially if that guy doesn´t care if he gets scored or even dunked on and has a high basketball IQ. God, i hope he comes back successfully ...

It's like I was telling the guys in the office- they didn't understand why we did this since they both said we'd have a better team this year with McGrady on the floor. And I kept telling them this isn't about this year, it's about next year. The best we can do this year is make it into the first round and get drilled. But this nets us a good team *if* Yao can come back *and* helps rebuild for the future even if he doesn't and that's why it was such a great move.

SI

[BishopMVP]

Who had the 2nd quarter for "Joe Crawford T's up a coach and gets himself on TV during a national game?"

[TroyF]

Can the playoffs start already so Denver can just play elite teams? In their defense, a lot of people are making something of the Washington game, but that was pure tiredness in the fourth quarter. The Cleveland game took a lot out of them.

Against the best of the best, Denver has been fantastic this year. Against the worst of the worst, they've looked mediocre.

The Orlando/Cleveland matchup is always really fascinating for me to watch. Cleveland does a lot of things really, really well. And they have the best of the best playing for them. Orlando really seems to take a lot of that away. Dwight+ the depth of bigs means they can control the boards and will have a gazillion fouls to spend on Shaq in the playoffs.

The smaller fours really take away what Varajao does. He's a guy who stops penetration, but he's out on the floor trying to cover the three point shot. They have about 4 guys the same size who can cover Lebron. Not stop Lebron, but they don't have any one guy who will get tired covering him.

The one wild card is Jamison. He allows the Cavs to match up better with the Magic. I really want to see those two in a seven game series again. My dream would be to see exact rematches of last years final four. Lakers/Nuggets, Cavs/Magic. May the best teams win. :)

[BishopMVP]

Can the playoffs start already so Denver can just play elite teams? In their defense, a lot of people are making something of the Washington game, but that was pure tiredness in the fourth quarter. The Cleveland game took a lot out of them.If you're using that defense, this was the back end of a west coast swing and the C's 3rd game in 4 days, plus Nate Robinson isn't there yet. We came back and made a game of it, but going down 19 after 1 points to some tired legs coming in.

[sterlingice]

Who had the 2nd quarter for "Joe Crawford T's up a coach and gets himself on TV during a national game?"

That's not a betting pool, that's a drinking game ;)

SI

[TroyF]

If you're using that defense, this was the back end of a west coast swing and the C's 3rd game in 4 days, plus Nate Robinson isn't there yet. We came back and made a game of it, but going down 19 after 1 points to some tired legs coming in.

Hey, I agree. Last game of a long road trip, you are worn out and shorthanded.

The night after the Denver game the Cavs were mauled in Charlotte. I think B2B after an emotional game is tough in this league. The last game of a long road trip is also difficult. Look at betting lines and it becomes obvious that even the great teams have schedule losses in the NBA regular season. After the first quarter, the game played out just about the way I expected. C's are too professional to throw in the towel. I knew they'd come back. Then I expected that comeback to take a lot out of em and the Nuggets to turn on the jets at home. Nothing really shocked me there. Also, Paul Peirce is clearly not himself right now.

That said, all of the Denver tank jobs this year haven't come after B2B's. Start listing the bad losses Denver has this year, and you'll have a big page. Denver and the C's have gotten to their records in 100% opposite ways. Denver crushes +500 teams and tanks it against the dregs. Boston has struggled against the elite and destroyed the dregs. You could make a case for both as good and bad heading into the playoffs.

FWIW - Denver is now 25-11 against +.500 teams and 11-3 vs. the top 4 teams in each conference. (Cle, Orl, Bos, Atl, LAl, UT and Dal) That means 12-8 against below .500. Just two or three of those games and Denver could be challenging the Lakers for the one seed, instead of fighting it out for the two.

[whomario]

Denver looked impressive yesterday in stretches, but also looked very predictable without Billups on the floor. JR Smith is still walking on a thin line between explosive scorer and erratic chucker ...

This just in : Darko Milicic looked like a pretty decent NBA player. A way out of shape NBA player, but good nonetheless ... 8 points, 8 boards, nice passing and good defense and being on the court over Jefferson in the final minutes ... No coincidence he was a +35 in a 2 point loss.
Allow me to gloat for a few minutes ;) Fully expect that to be false hope though ...
I just don´t get it. The huy is huge, still pretty mobile (even the out-of-shape version), has good footwork making him a pretty damn good Pick and Roll defender, is also a good man defender, blocks shots, can Post up and shoot from 15 feet.
I want him to get it together, now. He needs to channel is anger in turn it into positive energy for once (seriously, every time you see his face the guy looks like he´s about to go on a killing spree within seconds).

Al Jefferson looks terrible this year btw. Ineffective on offense, atrocious as allways on defense, clearly not fully healthy.
They won´t turn this around with him as their go-to-player.

For the Thunder Durant with just another day at the office, 32 Points on 16 FGAs, 12 in the last 2 minutes... Westbrook with hist first TD, 22/10/14.
GS beats Atlanta, Steph Curry 32 points with just 1 three. His midrange game is much better than expected.

[TroyF]

whomario,

Lawson is still playing well, but he's become way too unselfish. When he's attacking the basket, the second unit is 100% different than when he's throwing the ball to JR and getting out of the way. I hope the coaching staff encourages him to go into attack mode more frequently. FWIW, I thought Chauncey played very poorly for most of the third quarter of the Nuggets/Celtics game. Melo was a bystander for a big part of the third quarter. Carmelo didn't take a shot for the first 7 minutes of the quarter. I think ball handling is the main seperator between Melo and Bron. Bron never has to go 7 minutes without taking a shot, because he's got the ball every possession. Melo will sometimes go three to seven minutes without a touch. While there is no way Melo could/should handle the ball as much as Bron, he should also very, very rarely go 7 minutes without a shot attempt.

JR always, and I mean always walks that line. The key with him is for GK to watch when he's on and off and adjust his minutes accordingly. He catches fire, he should play 35 minutes. He goes cold, he should play about 20. The mistake is when he's cold and GK plays him for 27 minutes. He kills Denver when he's like that and gets minutes.

Have to hand it to Utah. I really thought they'd tail off right after the break. Instead they keep winning. Horrible loss for the Blazers last night.

As for that Golden State game, look at that final quarter. 35-14. Yikes. Hawks will be kicking themselves for that loss and now have to go to Utah tonight.

[whomario]

@ TroyF : That was kinda what i meant to say, should have connected my sentences better propably :D All they do is give the ball to Smith and stand around. Or worse : give the ball to Martin (yikes) and stand around when he was on the floor with the reserves.
Nene needs to play more with the reserves imo and get touches on the block. From the few games i´ve seen at least.

True about Melo needing to be involved consistently (not rocket science really :D ) but truth be told, he couldn´t handle the ball as frequently as James imo. Good ball handler, highly improved passer but certainly would make it easier to defend the Nuggets if he did, imo. Part of why he is so dangerous is that he doesn´t need the ball all the time and can scorer without stopping the ball first (hope that makes sense) and not presenting a target for trapping/double teaming.

that 4th quarter in the GS-ATL game was indeed pretty absurd, just watched it in replay. Curry was amazing though, the guy will be an amzing NBA Point Guard, definitely has the skills.

[TroyF]

I agree about Melo and I understand he shouldn't handle the ball as much as James does. I'm just saying he shouldn't go three to five minutes without a touch and should very rarely go 7 minutes without a shot attempt. (especially when the game is moving in the wrong direction)

I love how media outlets spin events in games. The headline from ESPN on the Nuggets/Celtics game: Nuggets blow 20 point lead, hold on to beat Celtics.

Ok, the line is factual. Yet it's more than a little misleading too. The Nuggets did blow a 20 point lead. The game was actually within a one possession game for about 2 minutes in the third quarter. The Celtics never were within 9 points in the final frame. Great comeback by the Celtics and a fun game to watch, but the Nuggets didn't really "hold on", they just turned the jets back on and cruised.

I agree with you about Curry, he's going to be a great player. I knew he had all of the shots, I was not aware of how good of a passer he'd be. He has a chance to be a very special player.

[Sublime 2]

Al Jefferson looks terrible this year btw. Ineffective on offense, atrocious as allways on defense, clearly not fully healthy.
They won´t turn this around with him as their go-to-player.


Do you think this is fully from his injuries?

I'm a Big Al lover from his Boston days, but admit to not watching really any Minny games. However, just looking at his raw stats, it doesn't look like he's playing 'too' poorly. Granted, defensively he'll never be amazing, but I'm surprised by the 'ineffective on offense' comment. He's always been somewhat of a 'blackhole' on offense, is this what mean?

Just wondering what you're seeing.

[whomario]

yeah, that´s what i meant.

part of it is the injury but he wasn´t terribly effective prior to that, either (19.5 FGAS for 23 points, only 5 FTAs). Granted, with a better team that would very likely improve. Still, i really don´t see him being a first option to really build around. 2nd option on a good team ? Yeah, fine. But to be the clear go-to guy on offense, i just don´t see it.

Jefferson just needs a lot of support to be effective on offense. Just like Amare but even more extreme. He doesn´t create space at all, is very easy to double team as he really depends on getting the ball in his sweet spots to be effective.
Plus the Wolves try to feed him even if it´s not working. Granted, that´s not really his fault (not Rambis either apparently, yesterday said that he wants the team to look for alternatives but they just can´t make the switch).

A first option post player shouldn´t need 15 shots for 17 points. Of all PF/Cs in the league averaging 14+ points he has the lowest TS% while being in the upper 3rd in terms of USG%.

And watching him (granted on a small sample size, watched 3 full games and few where i browsed through) the above really makes sense. He needs a ton of space to operate, yet really doesn´t punish people inside and takes a lot of fadeaways at an underwhelming clip.
Even last year during his supposed "dominant play". F.e. against Houston he had 38/23 and 34/14, yet the Rockets really didn´t need to adjust much. Didn´t get anyone into foul trouble, needed 30 and 31 shots respectively, had 11 FTs combined.

I dunno, he just doesn´t put a signature on games. Right now he´s pretty comparable to Chris Kaman on offense. Nothing against the Caveman, but you get my point i think.
Plus Jefferson´s energy level is pathetic at times, he´s just not doing anything in terms of leading a team and his defense is really, really, really bad. He doesn´t rotate correctly, overplays trying to block shots, doesn´t move his feet in Pick and Roll situations. Just doesn´t "get it" at that end.
And to let that slide and get big money a player better put up 22,23 with really good efficiency (look under Boozer, Carlos)

[whomario]

I´m not at all trying to say he´s a bad player, but he is a) clearly not moving as well as he could (there i have hope for next year with another offseason) and even on top of his game i wouldn´t build around him.

[TroyF]

I´m not at all trying to say he´s a bad player, but he is a) clearly not moving as well as he could (there i have hope for next year with another offseason) and even on top of his game i wouldn´t build around him.

Good analysis. I agree, there is zero way you build around him. He could be a decent piece with a good supporting cast, but he's not a superstar.

[DeToxRox]

Did anyone see this from Lebron after the Magic game?

“I think one thing that hurts me is because of my size and my strength, I feel like I go to the hole just as much as anybody in this league, and sometimes I don’t get the benefit of the calls,” James said. “There were a few times I got grabbed, I got pushed, I got smacked, there were no calls.”


GTFO.

[Big Fo]

Now that's just laughable.

[Subby]

Random thought - I wonder if anyone ever went back and compiled all of the ridiculous quotes about Durant when he was new to the league. Lots of folks declaring him a bust around these parts if I remember correctly.

Absolutely loving the Thunder!

[Groundhog]

Random thought - I wonder if anyone ever went back and compiled all of the ridiculous quotes about Durant when he was new to the league. Lots of folks declaring him a bust around these parts if I remember correctly.

Absolutely loving the Thunder!

Well the first half (IIRC) of his rookie season he was being played at SG and wasn't shooting the ball well at all, but as soon as they came to their senses and moved him to the frontcourt he's been spectacular. Not sure who was declaring him a bust as a rookie though, I mean hell, he averaged 20ppg.

[RainMaker]

Speaking of Al Jefferson, Bulls offered Luol Deng and Tyrus Thomas for him at the deadline.

[Radii]

Random thought - I wonder if anyone ever went back and compiled all of the ridiculous quotes about Durant when he was new to the league. Lots of folks declaring him a bust around these parts if I remember correctly.

Absolutely loving the Thunder!


I distinctly remember arguing that Oden was a sure thing and Durant may have a higher ceiling but was a much, much bigger risk and that Oden should have been the #1 pick and it should not have been a debate.

WHOOPS.

[Groundhog]

I distinctly remember arguing that Oden was a sure thing and Durant may have a higher ceiling but was a much, much bigger risk and that Oden should have been the #1 pick and it should not have been a debate.

WHOOPS.

I believe we had this discussion many pages back in this thread already, but I still say that knowing what we knew back then, Oden was the right pick for Portland. If you had a time machine, obviously you take Durant, but nobody could have realistically predicted Oden's injury woes, and he was beginning to play very well before his latest setback.

[RainMaker]

If the Bulls hang on to their 10-point halftime lead against Washington, it'll be 5 in a row and they'll be 22-11 since the report came out that Vinny Del Negro would be fired. This has been done with Noah missing about 9 games in that stretch.

Not saying they will go anywhere in the playoffs, but I have to believe they would be one of the scarier matchups for one of the top 4 to come across. I personally would love to see us get Boston again as I think they are the most beatable of those top 4 teams.

[TroyF]

Did anyone see this from Lebron after the Magic game?



GTFO.


Lebron averages 1.68 fouls per game. This is despite playing 39 minutes a night. That ranks him 210th in the NBA in fouls per 48 minutes. This is despite him driving as much or more than any SF in the league and playing active defense on a nightly basis.

He can truly STFU.

[TroyF]

dola

I read an article on basketball prospectus that tried to justify this by saying Deng also has low fouls per 48. Ummm. . . Deng doesn't handle the ball nearly as much as Lebron. Bron essentially gets about 0 offensive fouls called on him per game. he needs to get a grip.

[DaddyTorgo]

seriously

[whomario]

Oklahoma has won 9 in a row btw, looking really, really good bet to reach the Playoffs. Don´t want to jinx it, but don´t see them dropping off now.

Phoenix also surging, 8-2 in their last 10 :)

random stat : Steve Nash gets assisted on only 10% of his scores. Paul is at 11%, the next round of players start at 23 %.
James 35%, Kobe 40%, Durant 50%.
Nash still is 2nd among perimeter players for TS%, that´s pretty insane for a scrawny guard who just turned 36.
(Mike Miller is 1st btw shooting 56% from the field and 3, averaging 10 a game. Amazing shooter as well)

Andrey Blatche post All Star/Trade line : 4 games (3W, 1L) 25/10, 60% FG, 85% FT.
I dunno, maybe he really just needs consistent minutes. Haven´t seen him play a ton and while i can see the "inconsistent, mentally weak" thing, the guy still is only 23 years old.

And oh, if that offer of Mayo for Ellis really was on the table the Warriors should have taken it.
That´s how good Curry is allready.
Definitely has a Nash-like quality to his game when it comes to pushing the ball, finding passing angles, keeping his dribble under pressure and being an amazing shooter from anywhere on the floor.
I´m not saying he´s as good a playmaker as Nash or ever will be, but they definitely have similarities.

Put him next to a real SG (well, Mayo is at least close) and he´s going to be even better.

[TroyF]

Don't get me started on an Ellis rant. I don't get why so many people love this guy. He's a chucker, he dominates the ball, he's a bad three point shooter, he averages over 4 turnovers a game, he's pathetic in clutch situations, his defense is amongst the worst in the league for his position, every advanced stat says he sucks beyond belief. . . and he makes 11 million dollars a year until 2013.

If the Warriors were offered a bag of balls for the guy, they should have taken it and ran. OJ Mayo? Seriously? This shows both how bad these two organizations are ran when you see one team offered it and the other declined. Pure idiocy.

[whomario]

Ellis is kind of the 2010 version of most Allen Iverson seasons. Amazing scorer, great penetrator, a ton of "heart", very competitive, a case of "me against the world" syndrome.
If he had a bunch of well developed hard-playing role players and veteran around him he might just succeed, but him leading a young team ? No, thanks. I´ll take option B, please.

After Ronnie Brewer gets injured after one game with the Grizz (out 3+ weeks) now Josh Howard tears his ACL in his 4th game for the wizzards and is out for at least the rest of the year.
Jesus ...

[TroyF]

whomario,

The comparison to AI is good, outside of the "heart" thing. I just don't see that with Monta. I just see a guy who jacks up shots and doesn't draw a lot of fouls.

I'll also throw in that I don't think he could succeed anywhere right now. The only thing he could do would be to have a Vinnie Johnson type of 6th man role somewhere. Problem is he makes too much money and has too big of an ego to do that.

He's a guy I wouldn't want anywhere near the team I cheered for. Too bad Philly couldn't have traded for him just for the comic relief. AI and Ellis in the same backcourt. I'd have paid money to see that.

That said, I can't even laugh at AI now. I hope his daughter is ok.

[stevew]

I thought Ellis was crazy efficient about 2 years ago. But I haven't followed him in quite awhile

[vex]

Westbrook with hist first TD, 22/10/14

His second, actually.

[whomario]

Call me crazy, but here goes :

Darko Milicic on a good team would be a highly appreciated player. There, now you can laugh :)

Another really, really good game yesterday in a win in Miami. Wait, you say, he had 4 points and 2 rebounds with 3 blocks only !! Still, watching the game it was different.
Timberwolves fans are basically shocked and flabbergasted after his first 2 games. Now, the Wolves didn´t have a good defensive big men since Garnett and their last good defensive Center was Rasho Nesterovic (who was allways damn underrated as well), but still.
He really is a very good defender. There´s maybe a handfull of Centers that guard the Pick and Roll that well (much less guys that are like 7´1 and 275) and have that combination of quick feet and shot blocking ability.
And he´s still ways away from being in decent game shape ...

Saw all his minutes a few minutes ago on league pass replay and the guy simply gets it defensively.
The thing is, he doesn´t care about stats. Blocks out rather than crash the boards f.e. Moves the ball on offense instead of forcing it.
On a team deprived for boards and scoring that gets old quick and labeled as passive (his Memphis tenure), while in Orlando it got appreciated. And now he plays next to 2 really good rebounders and scorers that can´t defend all that well (Love, though he is ok a lot) or at all (Jefferson).
O´Neal scored all but 2 of his points on Jefferson last night.
And voila, fans notice it.

I honestly don´t know what Antoni was thinking in New York...

Other than that little fan-post :

Suns beat the Thunder, ending their streak at 9. All that without Nash (his back needed a rest after that road trip) and despite Durant scoirng 36 on 13-24 shooting with only 2 TOs.
Stoudemire with 30/9, Hill 21/9, Richardson 20 and the game winner. Dragic 16 points and 10 assists in nash´s place, nice one.

Kobe comes back with 32/7/6 and the game winner over Memphis.

Cavs win for the first time with Jamison who started in place of Hickson (who went from starter to zero minutes) . Marcus Thornton scored 37 on 15-22 shooting :eek: James 13 assists and zero TOs.

[whomario]

Pretty interesting interview with Nowitzki´s personal coach/mentor Holger geschwindner on Dirk´s beginnings and way to the NBA : SLAM ONLINE | » A Boy from Wurzburg (http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/all-star-2010/2010/02/a-boy-from-wurzburg/)

[TroyF]

Whomario,

I understand what you are saying about Darko and I agree with part of it. Yet you are still talking about 4 points, 2 rebounds, 0 assists in 25 minutes. Yes, there is such a thing as being unselfish and doing the dirty work. . . but you have to have slightly better numbers than that, don't you?

I'm still pulling for Darko. I also still don't see how he'll ever be anything more than a 9th man back of rotation player in this league.

[whomario]

no, you don´t in my book. On a good team or next to a good scorer up front you don´t.
On average, you need to produce better, no doubt. But in that game his intangibles were worth more than had f.e. Hollins played and produced 15/10 with everything else on average for him (defense, boxing out etc). They´d have lost by 15.
The Miami Centers O´Neal and Anthony combined for 2 rebounds when he was on the floor (i counted, slow day... ;) )
He wasn´t on the floor because of some weird charity-thing but because he made the team better both nights and he wasn´t just taking minutes away from Hollins but Jefferson as well. And rightfully so to boot.
If he could have phyischally he´d have played 30+ minutes both games.

His numbers should improve with conditioning as it is anyway (and he had 8/8 in 20 the night before). It´s not like his per 36 minutes are on a level of Jason Collins in terms of (lack of) production. Not enough for a team lacking scoring punch up front, but next to Jefferson/Love ? I´d believe that 12/8 in 30 with good defense would be more than fine and he can give you that, no doubt in my mind.

Odds are he´ll go to Europe after the season, so discussing his future prospects is lacking pull...

But hey, i´m not trying to convince anyone. Maybe encourage to watch some games though if you have league pass or if they play on national tv this season (well, not likely ;) )

Interesting listen, his first interview in Minnesota after his first shootarround : http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/media/DarkoShootaroundOKC_100221.mp3

talks about his frustration without seeming whiny about it, very honest and thoughtfull.

in unrelated news : Marcus Camby goes down with what is hopefully just a mildly sprained ankle. That´s 3 just-traded players down...

[Neon_Chaos]

Lakers vs. Mavs tonight.

Too bad Dampier is out. Otherwise, we might see Dallas toy with putting Damp and Haywood in at the same time to combat LA's height and length.

As it is, this match-up against the defending champs should be a good test for them to see if they now have the talent to be a significant force in the West playoffs.

[TroyF]

Really? You don't? You don't need more than 4 points and 2 rebounds to be a rotation player in the NBA? Cmon Whomario, you are much smarter than that.

FYI, Miami had 7 offensive rebounds last night and 3 came on one possession.

And no, the TWolves wouldn't have lost by 15 had Hollis played and scored 15 and 10. Miami played without Dwayne Wade.

I don't like getting into a debate about Darko. I really, truly do like the guy. Any interview I've ever heard the guy in makes me like him more.

But lets stop pretending he hasn't had chances. He played 24 minutes a night next to Dwight Howard in 06/07. Orlando, a team that prides itself on having 10 guys who play nightly decided they weren't interested. He played 24 minutes a game the next year with the Grizzlies. He's had chance after chance after chance. What we do see is production on the court that's well below average. What we don't see is how he does in practice, how quickly he picks up offensive plays and how much he wants it.

He's now with his 5th team in 7 years. Were the other four all wrong and don't understand how to evaluate talent? I dunno. I'm not saying they were all right, but I am saying I need to see some sustained production from the guy before I believe he'll ever be anything more than a role player. I'd love to be wrong, I really would.

[TroyF]

Lakers vs. Mavs tonight.

Too bad Dampier is out. Otherwise, we might see Dallas toy with putting Damp and Haywood in at the same time to combat LA's height and length.

As it is, this match-up against the defending champs should be a good test for them to see if they now have the talent to be a significant force in the West playoffs.

This is one of those scheduling things from above in the thread. I don't know how significant it is if you beat a team who had 3 players play 40 minutes or more the previous night while you got to bed early and were relaxing at home.

This is far more important to Dallas than the Lakers. I fully expect the Mavs to win by 10. If they don't. . . that's a sign of trouble come playoff time.

[whomario]

Orlando, a team that prides itself on having 10 guys who play nightly decided they weren't interested.

No, Orlando decided they wanted to pay Rashard Lewis 20 mio a year :) If not

-I said in a/one game you don´t need more than that if you do everything else right, i very much said you´d need more on average ;)

-Where did i say Miami didn´t have 7 offensive rebounds (which isn´t exactly a lot for a team shooting terrible) ? Their Centers and guys next to Milicic hat 2 on both ends all night is what i said.

- I never said he didn´t have chances, neither did he.

-As said, Orlando just went in a different direction and left him hanging dry because of that financial manouvring to get Lewis. They decided Lewis was their missing piece, fair enough.


I´m not even speaking about the past, i´m purely judging what i´m seeing right now. Which is sth that is making a lot of timberwolves fans question wether to even keep Jefferson with 2 games of 8/8 and 4/2/3. Which is insane in itself but also tells you sth about how much he affected both those games, doesn´t it ?

Again, 95% he goes back to Europe anyway. But allow me to gush a bit for the time being ;)

And for the record : You are propably (95%) right, it´s one of those topics where i choose to be delusional/ignorant/stubborn for my own mental health because of my history endorsing the guy. Some turn on guys that disapoint them, i allways find sth else to endorse i guess ;)


EDIT : About the liking thing, maybe related : You have a guy who has allready decided to go to Europe after the season and tried to be bought out for weeks, and definitely will get great offers over here, that guy gets traded to a terrible team when he is all but fed up about having nothing to play for (a terrible team in europe would have to fight to stay up at least, not have to actually loose for a better draft pick), gets traded for like 2 months left when he has a little son at home . That guy has nothing to gain here from his point of view really. Heck, no one would have been surprised if he hadn´t even reported or tried to get a buy out.
He is also far from being in game shape. And then he comes in, and plays with effort, sets screen after screen, traps every pick and roll, rotates back every time gets out to every shooter.
It just doesn´t "fit" with that situation and that´s what caught my (and the Timberwolves fans) eye really. I just can´t not appreciate that.


I promise to dial the PDA down a bit though ;)

[Groundhog]

Cavs win for the first time with Jamison who started in place of Hickson (who went from starter to zero minutes) . Marcus Thornton scored 37 on 15-22 shooting :eek: James 13 assists and zero TOs.

Hickson had the flu and was a game-time decision with or without Jamison, but I wouldn't be surprised if he logs some DNP-CDs this season. The Cavs were trying to do what Toronto has done wth DeRozan by starting him so he's assured some minutes regardless of how the game goes. He's got potential and in another couple of seasons could be a solid PF, but right now the Cavs best 2 PFs are Jamison and V.

Marcus Thornton has proved a hell of a steal ever since the coaching change, and Darren Collison hasn't looked too shabby either.

[whomario]

thanks for the info, missed that while skimming over the web this morning. Wouldn´t surprise me either if he gets demoted, it´s just how it is. Especially when Z comes back, then there no way he plays more than spot minutes unless it´s an unfavourable matchup at Center for Shaq/Z and Varejao slides over for extended stretches.

[TroyF]

whomario,

Preaching to the choir. I do like Darko and want to see him succeed. And he is a good guy. I'm just not ready to fall in love with him after two games in a TWolves uniform. I still don't understand the Wolves reluctence to deal Jefferson at the deadline.

For that matter, I don't understand a lot of teams. Washington paid out the nose to be mediocre for 4 straight seasons. The Warriors don't want to part with any of their "assets" when they are 16-40. Jefferson, even with his average play this year, had value. If he continues to suck, that value goes bye bye. I just don't get it.

Now, I really, really like Kevin Love. The guy can play. Jefferson? Not so much.

[Groundhog]

One surprising thing about the TWolves this season for me has been Corey Brewer. I'd pretty much written him off as a blown lottery pick, but looks like the guy can play and, most surprisingly of all, can shoot the ball a little now.

[whomario]

He´s just sepctacular when he gets to play on the move, really has true guard-speed at right about 6´9. And yeah, his jump shot finally deserves that name.

Also seemingly every game he and Love team up for a breathtaking QB/WR connection, last night again after a made FT by Miami.

Speaking of those long outlet passes by Love : You can´t realistically gameplan with that, but it´s still an amazing ability he brings to the table and is good for a couple baskets every night as a hockey assist at least.

another guy where i still think he´ll be a really good nba player for a few years : Dorrell Wright. Yeah i know that i propably caught him on his best game in like ever, but i really liked his play in the 06/07 season and that combination of length and athleticism simply is still there and now he developed a 3 point Jump Shot over the summer.

[Groundhog]

Speaking of those long outlet passes by Love : You can´t realistically gameplan with that, but it´s still an amazing ability he brings to the table and is good for a couple baskets every night as a hockey assist at least.


For sure. One of my best mates was a pretty amazing PF back in our high school basketball days, and he had this skill down too. Whenever the other team scored he was tearing the ball out of the bottom of the net, then looking for the long outlet pass from the inbound, while me or the other guard on the team was sprinting down court, every chance. Might only get 2 or 3 opportunities a game to pull it off (especially after completing it once), but man is it frustrating for the other team to have to work the ball around and put in 20-30 seconds of offense to score a basket, only to have us reply in under 5 seconds. :D

[Chief Rum]

Okay, so Gooden was pretty good tonight with the Clips. Someone who knows give me a rundown on why he sucks so much. Is it inconsistency?

[whomario]

He is not a bad basketball player, just not good enough for the way he plays. If that makes any sense. He doesn´t usually complement anyone on the court.
Plus he can´t defend big guys, is too slow laterally to defend smaller guys, doesn´t rotate well or blocks shots, is a terrible passer and needs to be set up to score. Dóesn´t have the handles to take big guys off the dribble and isn´t a good enough post scorer to overpower smaller guys.
He does get his but it doesn´t force the other team to adjust at all. And if they double him once in a while he can´t pass.

He managed a -8.5 with the Spurs last year, 6 teams in 8 years and in all but one season he was in the bottom 2 among rotation players in +- (Larry hughes and czezary trybanski were worse at one time) , that is just an unbelievable "streak"

He´s likely not a bad guy and doesn´t pack it in or anything, but he just gives effort at all the wrong moments and the results ...

[whomario]

Manu Ginobili with an all-world defensive play on Durant :

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm9Y-vqZsEo

whoa :eek:

also 26/9/4 and overall a strong month of february, glad he starts playing better :)

[stevew]

Okay, so Gooden was pretty good tonight with the Clips. Someone who knows give me a rundown on why he sucks so much. Is it inconsistency?

Just watch like 5 games, look at all the dumb ass stuff he does. He can't rotate on defense. He doesn't block shots. His offense is nothing to speak of. Honestly maybe it's just his demeanor at times, and his inability to grasp what the fuck is going on around him, that make him look like a dumbass.

[RainMaker]

Okay, so Gooden was pretty good tonight with the Clips. Someone who knows give me a rundown on why he sucks so much. Is it inconsistency?
Gooden is a good offensive player. He can give you 20 points every so often. Problem is that he kills the flow of most offenses. He's a bad passer who is always looking for his own shot.

Defensively, he can be average at times but doesn't seem like he has a lot of motivation to do so. He doesn't seem to put much effort in and has brain farts all the time.

The sad thing is that he will give you a 20-10 night once in awhile and you'll think that he can be a nice piece. But he'll shit on himself for the next two games and play like he doesn't care. I have no doubt that if he had a stronger work ethic and passion for the sport, he could be an All-Star. But by watching him play in person for a year, it always just seemed like he'd rather be somewhere else.

[TroyF]

Just to echo what others have said. . . Gooden is a black hole on offense and he gives very little effort at the defensive end. He's always been a guy that looks really good the first time you watch him play. You see him again and see a few warts but still think he's a decent enough player. By the 8th time you've seen him, you are cussing the coach out for putting him in the game.

One thing he's always done very well is offensive rebounding. He's always been great at that part of the game.

[sterlingice]

Just to echo what others have said. . . Gooden is a black hole on offense and he gives very little effort at the defensive end. He's always been a guy that looks really good the first time you watch him play. You see him again and see a few warts but still think he's a decent enough player. By the 8th time you've seen him, you are cussing the coach out for putting him in the game.

One thing he's always done very well is offensive rebounding. He's always been great at that part of the game.

Here's my Gooden post:
Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - The Thread of the 2009-2010 NBA Season (http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/showpost.php?p=2223528&postcount=924)

SI

[Neuqua]

Gooden has less basketball IQ than any basketball player I have ever seen, and I've been watching the NBA all my life.

[whomario]

boy, if the aliens ever abduct him and send him back clever, our faces are going to look sooooo red :D

[Groundhog]

We should just dig up all the posts from back when Gooden was traded to the Bulls and Bulls fans were excited. :D

[Chief Rum]

Heh, heh, thanks everyone. In that case, glad his contract's done at the end of the season. Not that it matters--whoever plays PF the rest of the year for the Clips is just holding the spot down for Griffin next year.

[cartman]

Wow, the Grizz are sending Hasheem Thabeet, #2 overall draft pick, down to the D-League.

Sources: Memphis Grizzlies sending Hasheem Thabeet to D-League - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4946483)

[DeToxRox]

Wow, the Grizz are sending Hasheem Thabeet, #2 overall draft pick, down to the D-League.

Sources: Memphis Grizzlies sending Hasheem Thabeet to D-League - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4946483)

Did anyone really not see this coming? This was one of the biggest wastes of a top 5 pick in any sport ever.

[Groundhog]

I think this picture perfectly illustrates exactly what's wrong with too many NBA GMs these days:

http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/02/17/alg_thabeet-blair.jpg

[miami_fan]

Wow, the Grizz are sending Hasheem Thabeet, #2 overall draft pick, down to the D-League.

Sources: Memphis Grizzlies sending Hasheem Thabeet to D-League - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4946483)

I would be really excited by this move if I believe it would start a trend of sending raw talent down to the NBA "minors" to develop their game.

[whomario]

seriously.

IMO Thabeet has a lot of promise, but he needed to be drafted by a crappy team with a patient organisation. Yeah, well i know it was the Grizzlies and no one could expect them to suddenly play real basketball. But maybe they are patient at least ... ;)
What i don´t get is why now when the playoff hopes are quickly going down. I can only figure they want him to get into a rythm for the last few weeks of the season in case a) they are in the playoff run and there´s an injury or b) they aren´t in it and want to play him bigger minutes.

Regarding last night : The Cavs looked really good from the few minutes i saw on replay, that was in the 2nd half though where they dominated the Celtics and the celtics looked like a lottery team ... They really depend on Rondo having a great game and the other team unable to figure out how to stop him. He is too passive to maintain pressure for 48 minutes and it´s not rocket science to figure out his weaknesses.

Stephen Curry is fun to watch :)


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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3pIsA0Q0d0


Look at that Bird fly :)
didn´t yet see much of that game, so no idea how much of Billups big night was on Curry, but ah well ...
Warriors needed to move Ellis when they had a chance ...

Billups averaging a career high 20.2 a game now and about 24 in January/February on 47% and 48% from 3 and taking only about 15 FGAs. Also 7 assists and only 2 TOs.

[RainMaker]

It's not like Thabeet is 19, he's 23 years old. And what is the potential upside for him? Maybe a 10 point, 10 rebound, 3 block a night guy? Sure that's nice, but hardly worth a "project" pick at 2nd in the draft. With a flood of point guards in the draft, wouldn't they have been better off taking one of those or even trading down to where the Knicks were (who wanted Rubio bad).

[whomario]

Me saying Thabeet will amount to sth (imo) doesn´t mean i thing the Grizzlies didn´t blow that pick. They did. It´s not like Gasol had a weak rookie season, the guy was pretty good last year allready.
They had little need to draft a Center with that pick (and i realize "need" is relative for draft picks) and would have been much better off drafting any of the available PG prospects.
Heck, why not just take Rubio ? He would have fit nicely with their nucleus imo and the chance for him coming to Memphis might have been bigger than with the Timberwolves (higher salary, a fellow spanish player in Marc).

But i just have a hard time labelling anyone a bust after less than a full season, especially with a guy as likeable as Thabeet ...

[TroyF]

Virtually all of it came on Curry. Anytime the Warriors got close, one or more of three things happened.

1) Billups would take the ball and post up on Curry. 95% of the time it resulted in either a wide open shot for someone else or Billups would take him to the hole.

2) Ellis would come down and jack up an iladvised three pointer which the Nuggets would turn into a fast break basket.

3) JR would hit a bomb.

Big news out of this game for the Nuggets was Kenyon Martin going down with a bruised knee. It likely means they'll play shorthanded for the second game of a back to back yet again. Unbelievable.

One other note about this game. . . I cannot believe how far Biedrins has fallen off the deep end. I mean, it's truly amazing. The guy is simply horrible right now.

Thabeet? My God. I'm not sure what people expected. He's a project center. I think they missed on the pick as well, but I do think he'll develop into a solid player. They are close to 4% better in FG% defense with him on the floor than off it. And he doesn't know what the hell to do right now.

At this point, a lot of teams can be ashamed of themselves for their 2009 draft, but there are two teams that REALLY stick out to me:

1) Minnesota. I like Flynn. But you take a guy that isn't going to play for you, pass up Curry on two consecutive picks, and then trade Lawson for a future first? That's a waste. When Rubio is able to come over in three years, maybe they'll make up for some of this with a trade.

2) Knicks. Brandon Jennings and Ty Lawson were made for the system. I mean made for it. Either could have come in, solidified the PG position for the next ten years and been an asset down the road. Even guys like Jru Holliday, Collison, Teauge or Maynor could have helped them out. This was the best PG draft in 10 years and you have Chris Duhon playing 38 minutes a night. . . how is this difficult to figure out? Instead they draft Hill, a guy who was considered most similar as a prospect to ----- wait for it ---- Ronnie Turiaf.

Yeah, good call Knicks. Hope you win in FA, because if your scouting department is running the show, you are dead.

[whomario]

1) Minnesota. I like Flynn. But you take a guy that isn't going to play for you, pass up Curry on two consecutive picks, and then trade Lawson for a future first? That's a waste. When Rubio is able to come over in three years, maybe they'll make up for some of this with a trade.



Flynn projects terrible down the road, imo. Will never be a starter on a playoff team i´d say. Key things standing out so far : Small, can´t shoot all that well (especially when contrsted), isn´t a good finisher, can´t pass (like Aaron Brooks-bad), can´t run an offense.
All he does well is scoring in transition or when breaking down the defense, that´s it. As a 6 foot PG.
They also have sessions who is a much better passer but can´t shoot at all and is an even worse fit for the type of offense they are running although he is the better PG overall imo ...

Rubio can come over in 2011 if he wants to, hardly 3 years ;)

[RainMaker]

Rubio would have never signed with Memphis. They would have been better off trading with the Knicks and picking up some marginal talent at that spot. Or going with a guy like Curry.

I'm not as down as whomario about Flynn. He plays in an offense that really isn't built for a creative PG at all while Jennings is basically allowed to run the show in Milwaukee. I think he can be a solid NBA PG in the right system. Jennings is also still relying on those who are hyping up his early season exploits. He's basically been shit the last 2 months. I like his upside but he's too focused on scoring when his strength is his passing.

[whomario]

Flynn isn´t a creative PG either :D He´s agressive and quick and a great ballhandler, not creative. Really kind of like Aaron Brook minus the shooting ability.

I agree that Jennings has been shooting bad since somewhere in december. But other than shooting he´s still been ok from what i´ve seen. I know that´s a big "other than" when you are talking about sub 35% shooting ...
But shooting can be taught/learned much easier than passing, especially when the player clearly has some shooting ability that´s just vanished for whatever reasons.

as far as the Wolves taking Curry : I am pretty sure the consensus here was that a) he shouldn´t have been picked as early as he was, much less by any team before that and b) that he wasn´t a PG at all.
Actually b) was one of the selling points for the Rubio+Curry idea.


Who has been great for Milwaukee is Andrew Bogut. Would like him to get to the FT line more (although for a guy getting 80% of his shots in and around the paint he sure doesn´t get much love from the refs), but other than that he´s playing great on both ends.
16/10 with 2.5 blocks and really, really good defense.

[stevew]

The cavs can't guard Ronda. We will have a very hard time with him, Nelson and Rose in the playoffs in the East. Chances are we will play 2 of those teams.

[TroyF]

That's why Mo's shooting is so critical. If he's not hitting shots, neither him or Delonte are all that good against quick PG's and Cleveland gets a big L in that matchup. If he's drilling threes, his offense makes Cleveland nearly unstoppable on that end and makes up for any of those defensive shortcomings.

Last night he was medicore to bad for three quarters. Cleveland struggled to put a Celtics team without Peirce away. Then Mo woke up. 3 straight bombs, back to back to back. The Celtics were never in the game again.

[whomario]

couple big nights to go with pretty good games last night.

Dallas down by 13 with 5:30 to go comes back late to beat Atlanta in OT, Dirk with 37, Kidd with a video game TD of 19/16/17

Plus a play that can be viewed as both insanely alert and really cheap, drawing contact with Atlanta Coach Woodson when Woodson was on the court by a feet or 2 during play, drawing a technical foul on Woodson. Seriously, how do you even recognize that as a player and then have the "smarts" to take advantage ?

Carlisle with a beautiful decicion to play a 2-3 zone with all 3 guards (kidd, terry, barea) and Nowitzki and Dampier.

Amazing game overall, especially that 4th quarter which was incredible.

Houston with their first win since the trade deadline, Scola (30), Martin (33) and Brooks (31) combining for 94 points :eek:
Spurs without Tony Parker once again ... They need to get Jefferson involved somehow (only 12 Points a game despite Parker and Ginobili a) missing game and b) playing crappy at times, the guy averaged 20 last year and 23 the season before that)

Knicks beat Wizards in OT. McGrady with 23/3/3 in 25 minutes but didn´t play late in the game. Lee 25/16/5 , Harrington 37 . Blatche 26/18/6 with 3 Blocks (but also 8 TOs) , McGee with 18/10 and 5 blocks.

Cleveland beats Raptors in OT, terrible defense from both teams from what i saw (heck, Reggie Evans scored 13 !!!) ... James the usual 36/6/9 with only 1 TO.


SUns beat the Clips and Robin Lopez scores 30 on 13-16 shooting, added 12 rebounds for good measure.
Hasn´t looked half bad prior to this game either, really gives the Suns a new dimension and that Lopez/Frye rotation is very interesting.


New Orleans beats Orlando, David West has 40 points on 16-24 shooting. The Magic are a stupid, stupid team. The ylet Aaron Gray take Howard out of the game because they didn´t pass the pall to Howard for basically the last 18 minutes...

[TroyF]

On the Kidd play. . . they were raving about it on tv too, but I see the same play once every couple of years. Earl Boykins did it against the Bucks coach a few years ago. On the replays you could see Boykins look at the coach and make a beeline for him. The coach was probably a foot on the floor when they made contact. Coach got T'd up just like Woodson did.

[Silver Owl]

Me saying Thabeet will amount to sth (imo) doesn´t mean i thing the Grizzlies didn´t blow that pick.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what does "sth" mean. I've seen it in a couple of your other posts and can't for the life of me figure it out.

[whomario]

something

At least for me it does, no idea if that´s official in any way, shape or form :D

[Neon_Chaos]

NJ's about to lay the smackdown on Boston.

[DaddyTorgo]

NJ's about to lay the smackdown on Boston.

shouldn't you be under a tsunami warning?

[DaddyTorgo]

NJ's about to lay the smackdown on Boston.

this just in: KG has zero mobility left...Pierce is injured...Sheed hucks up way too many shitty 3's...Rondo+Ray Allen can't carry the team every night...the Celtics just aren't that good this year. First-round playoff exit. 2nd round exit at best.

[Neon_Chaos]

shouldn't you be under a tsunami warning?

A tsunami of awesomeness, perhaps!

:)

I'm in Chicago right now. Will be here til the 20th of March.

[DaddyTorgo]

A tsunami of awesomeness, perhaps!

:)

I'm in Chicago right now. Will be here til the 20th of March.

Aaaah that's right. Where's the tsunami of awesomeness in Chicago? *ducks*

jk...I love Chicago.

[Silver Owl]

something

At least for me it does, no idea if that´s official in any way, shape or form :D

Ahhh ... OK, that makes sense.

[whomario]

Nicholas Batum with an amazing game against Minnesota. I just love his game, glad to see he´s getting his legs back after sitting out injured for the first 40 games.
Just love his game, he´s so versatile and smooth with his great mobility at 6´8/6´9. Really good defender against multiple positions (even guarding PGs at times), moves very well on rotations. And he´s worked on his offense over the summer, has become a very reliable 3 point shooter, can cut to the basket and put the ball on the floor. Great fast break player, good passer, very unselfish.
Tonight bets game of his career statistically 31/7/7 with no TO, 11-16 shooting, doing most of his damage in the 3rd where they really ran away with it.

Jefferson is like a clumsy bear out there right, even when he scores ... Everything stops once he has the ball and everybody has to go out of his way to get the ball to him. As soon as he´s beaten to the spot, that´s it, there´s no plan B here.

Timberwolves are god awfull ... Milicic looked good defensively once more ... Flynn was making a 101 for "how not to play as the PG" ...

Memphis really has zero depth, i can´t recall a team with a starting 5 that clear cut . Tonight again Conly the fewest minutes at 39, Gay and Mayo play 44.
Gaudy numbers by Randolph (31/25, 10 offensive) and Gasol (27/13/8) against the Knicks "front court" . McGrady not playing at all in the 2nd half ...

[RainMaker]

That's why Mo's shooting is so critical. If he's not hitting shots, neither him or Delonte are all that good against quick PG's and Cleveland gets a big L in that matchup. If he's drilling threes, his offense makes Cleveland nearly unstoppable on that end and makes up for any of those defensive shortcomings.

Last night he was medicore to bad for three quarters. Cleveland struggled to put a Celtics team without Peirce away. Then Mo woke up. 3 straight bombs, back to back to back. The Celtics were never in the game again.
I actually believed that Cleveland should have passed on Shaq and made a big play for Ben Gordon. He's had a bad year in Detroit for various reasons, but alongside Mo Williams would have given the Cavs some deadly shooting from behind the arc and a guy who could create offense with Lebron on the bench.

[Groundhog]

I agree that Jennings has been shooting bad since somewhere in december. But other than shooting he´s still been ok from what i´ve seen. I know that´s a big "other than" when you are talking about sub 35% shooting ...
But shooting can be taught/learned much easier than passing, especially when the player clearly has some shooting ability that´s just vanished for whatever reasons.

Jennings put a big target on his head with that 55 point game. You see it with rookies all the time, they get hot, then teams start defensive game-planning them, things get tougher, their confidence takes a hit, etc. Jennings is so young and gifted that I find it tough to believe he WON'T end up a very, very good PG. I was really down on him prior to the draft but even with his current struggles I believe the Bucks made the right choice.

as far as the Wolves taking Curry : I am pretty sure the consensus here was that a) he shouldn´t have been picked as early as he was, much less by any team before that and b) that he wasn´t a PG at all.
Actually b) was one of the selling points for the Rubio+Curry idea.

Yup, I was surprised he went so early, but only by a few spots really, and I don't think anyone could have predicted he'd turn out to be such a capable PG - turnovers aside. I'd like to see how he played in a proper offense however.

Who has been great for Milwaukee is Andrew Bogut. Would like him to get to the FT line more (although for a guy getting 80% of his shots in and around the paint he sure doesn´t get much love from the refs), but other than that he´s playing great on both ends.
16/10 with 2.5 blocks and really, really good defense.

Bogut has been outstanding this year. It's a shame that Horford made the All-Star team over Bogut, though considering the team records I understand the decision. Still, Bogut is playing like I always thought he would if the Bucks made an effort to get him the ball.

[TroyF]

OK, NBA and David Stern. If you are going to set up a system for superstars, make it equal for all stars. Artest has thugged it up on Melo all game long. Then Melo fouls out for pushing Artest's arm away?

Seriously Stern, get your crap together. That wasn't a foul to begin with. with the way the game has been called, it clearly wasn't a foul. And you don't take Carmelo Anthony out of a close game on a call like that.

That call is unacceptable. Period.

(and no, the Nuggets won't lose because of that call, but that was horrible)

[TroyF]

FWIW, if Artest is allowed to beat the crap out of Melo without ever getting a call, the Nuggets can't beat the lakers in a series. If he fouls out like he should have after five minutes of playing like that, the Lakers have zero chance against this Denver Nuggets team. I'm now 100% convinced Denver would beat them in a seven game series if everything is equal.

[Chief Rum]

FWIW, if Artest is allowed to beat the crap out of Melo without ever getting a call, the Nuggets can't beat the lakers in a series. If he fouls out like he should have after five minutes of playing like that, the Lakers have zero chance against this Denver Nuggets team. I'm now 100% convinced Denver would beat them in a seven game series if everything is equal.

I'll admit I didn't watch too much of the game, only flipping over during breaks in the hockey action, and all in the first half. But it seemed to me, every time I went over, Kobe was getting mugged with no calls.

He wasn't the only one--the refs seemed to be letting a physical game take place. But I didn't see in that limited time any indication Melo was being called unfairly in comparison to other stars on the court.

I didn't catch even a second of the second half. Who the hell would watch this game while US-Canada hockey was going on? ;)

[whomario]

in the earlier Spurs-Suns game there were 2 enormous brain farts by the Suns late. First Richardson missing a 1-0 breakaway dunk that had made it a tie game and afterwards forced the suns to foul to extend the game, then in the last seconds down 3 Nash plays a pass to Frye who was a good 5 feet inside the 3 point line (why was he inside the 3 point line is another mystery).
Would have been a tough shot anyway and he hit a huge one the possession prior to give them a chance, but that was ball game.

Great game prior to that, great execution offensively with the star players being great and the role players doing their part as well. Very fluent offense on both sides with Nash and Duncan showing vintage fundamental basketball once more, Duncan schooled Lopez in the 2nd half.

Stoudemire was good but also showed everything that makes you hate him. "Wait, he scored 35+ !!!" . Yeah, still ... He just can´t pass the ball even a little bit, zoned everyone arround him out of the game offensively ...

[TroyF]

I'll admit I didn't watch too much of the game, only flipping over during breaks in the hockey action, and all in the first half. But it seemed to me, every time I went over, Kobe was getting mugged with no calls.

He wasn't the only one--the refs seemed to be letting a physical game take place. But I didn't see in that limited time any indication Melo was being called unfairly in comparison to other stars on the court.

I didn't catch even a second of the second half. Who the hell would watch this game while US-Canada hockey was going on? ;)


Kobe actually settled for outside shots a majority of the game. It was kind of stunning. The refs idea was to let them play. . . except for calling Melo for two offensive fouls that just didn't pass the reality test. The last one was beyond idiotic. It was so bad that if I were in charge of the NBA the ref would be fired for incompetence.

I hate the style the refs were letting them play with. (Both sides) It was like the Finals series between the Knicks and Rockets. Dull and boring. But if you are going to let them play, let them play. Don't take Melo out of the game on a 100% screwjob BS call.

If both sides go into the series healthy, I'm now convinced the Nuggets will beat them. Afflalo can make sure Kobe doesn't go into ridiculous mode. (and has in all three meetings this year) Bynum hates playing Nene. The wild cards are Odom and Ty Lawson as neither team has someone who can control either guy.

Still, I think when healthy, the Nuggets are the better team head to head. We'll see in a few months.

[Chief Rum]

Kobe actually settled for outside shots a majority of the game. It was kind of stunning. The refs idea was to let them play. . . except for calling Melo for two offensive fouls that just didn't pass the reality test. The last one was beyond idiotic. It was so bad that if I were in charge of the NBA the ref would be fired for incompetence.

I hate the style the refs were letting them play with. (Both sides) It was like the Finals series between the Knicks and Rockets. Dull and boring. But if you are going to let them play, let them play. Don't take Melo out of the game on a 100% screwjob BS call.

If both sides go into the series healthy, I'm now convinced the Nuggets will beat them. Afflalo can make sure Kobe doesn't go into ridiculous mode. (and has in all three meetings this year) Bynum hates playing Nene. The wild cards are Odom and Ty Lawson as neither team has someone who can control either guy.

Still, I think when healthy, the Nuggets are the better team head to head. We'll see in a few months.

Actually, I think this game was atrociously bad news for the Nuggets.

The Nuggets played exactly the way you want to play to beat the Lakers. The Nuggets are a tougher team, bigger, more aggressive. If they get into a skills contest with the Lakers, they lose. So they play the tough card, the softer Lakers quail a bit and the Nuggets are then playing a style that is conducive to their personnel.

The Nuggets did exactly that today. They shot 12 more free throws than the Lakers. They outrebounded the Lakers. They played a tough, physical game that takes guys like Gasol, Odom and Bynum out of their style of game. They muscled around on Kobe and he had an absolutely atrocious day.

Despite all that, the Nuggets lost. That's bad news. If the Nuggets don't beat the Lakers in a game like this, with Kobe having maybe the worst game he's had in years, are they going to beat them in seven in May, with four games at Staples? I don't think so.

[jbergey22]

Plus the Nuggets are playing at their peak right now. No chance Billups keeps this up.

With an average road record and a subpar record against sub 500 teams Id have a hard time believing that the Nuggets have changed a whole lot.

[whomario]

a subpar record against sub 500 teams

soooo, hands up everyone who thinks they are going to play a sub 500 team in the playoffs ? :)

In the battle of the incompetent Washington comes back to beat the Nets, Blatche with 36/15/4.
27/12 since the all star break (7 games) on 56% shooting. The guy has been monstrous.
Nets backcourt atrocious as usual, Yi with 20/19 (12 offensive boards).

Thunder easily beat the Raptors (still without Bosh, now sliding with 3rd loss in a row), Ibaka 13/10 with 4 blocks :)

Magic beat heat despite an atrocious game by Howard.

Collison and Thornton again with big scoring nights, 35 (15-21 shooting !) for Collison and 21 for thornton.
Mavs still can´t guard quick PGs ... Nowitzki with 36/8/7 and zero TOs, that latter fact is unreal.
Last 3 games : 104 points, 70 FGs, 25 FTs. 3 TOs.


Quote of the night :


I think in the second half they went into a zone and I think that it really hurt us


Kiki Vandeweghe. So, you think they went to a zone ? :confused:

[jbergey22]

soooo, hands up everyone who thinks they are going to play a sub 500 team in the playoffs ? :)



Wouldnt you call this a sign of inconsistency? Which is basically my point. You cant just give away a couple games to the Lakers and expect to win the series.

[Neon_Chaos]

I think Artest just earned his paycheck against the Nuggets.

[whomario]

Wouldnt you call this a sign of inconsistency? Which is basically my point. You cant just give away a couple games to the Lakers and expect to win the series.

I´d call that a sign of complacency and unless they happen to face a Laker team missing Bryant and Gasol it won´t exactly be an issue.

I dunno, i´d propably weigh them playing bad against the really good teams ("the big games") more *telling* for the playoffs than playing bad against bad teams.

I´m not even thinking they beat the Lakers, just found that reason you gave a bit off :)

[TroyF]

Actually, I think this game was atrociously bad news for the Nuggets.

The Nuggets played exactly the way you want to play to beat the Lakers. The Nuggets are a tougher team, bigger, more aggressive. If they get into a skills contest with the Lakers, they lose. So they play the tough card, the softer Lakers quail a bit and the Nuggets are then playing a style that is conducive to their personnel.

The Nuggets did exactly that today. They shot 12 more free throws than the Lakers. They outrebounded the Lakers. They played a tough, physical game that takes guys like Gasol, Odom and Bynum out of their style of game. They muscled around on Kobe and he had an absolutely atrocious day.

Despite all that, the Nuggets lost. That's bad news. If the Nuggets don't beat the Lakers in a game like this, with Kobe having maybe the worst game he's had in years, are they going to beat them in seven in May, with four games at Staples? I don't think so.

Both times this year the game involved skill, the Nuggets mopped the floor with the Lakers. Destroyed them.

You listed all of the things that happened with the Lakers, but how about what happened to the Nuggets? Ty Lawson played 6 minutes before getting hurt. He's someone the Lakers haven't even contained this year. The Nuggets shot 36%, and hit only 28% on 25 three point attempts. In last years playoff against the Lakers they shot that poorly exactly 0 times. In fact, this was the single worst shooting exhibition the Nuggets have had this year, both from two point and three point land. Yet when the BS foul call was made on Melo the Nuggets had the ball in a four point game.

All in all, I think Denver can feel pretty good about themselves.

[TroyF]

Wouldnt you call this a sign of inconsistency? Which is basically my point. You cant just give away a couple games to the Lakers and expect to win the series.

They've blown some horrible games this year. As far as your point though, I think you are missing something. It's not a sign of inconsistency or complacency as much as it is about a sign that Denver is not nearly as deep as most other teams.

The Nuggets have 8 horrific losses this year. (I'm sorry, I'm not calling a loss in Memphis to be something horrible) 5 of them came on back to backs while missing one of their rotation players. In many of the losses, the previous game was grueling. (ex: They beat Cleveland without Melo in a close game and lost @ Sacremento on the road the next night, they won @Utah without Melo or Chauncey and lost the next night to the 76ers.) Yes, those losses are still bad losses, but while they should have won those games, they also had no business winning games this year without key players.

This is good and bad. It's good in the fact that I do think the Nuggets are capable of beating the Lakers in a 7 game series. (look guys, last year was closer than people think. If Anthony Carter isn't inbounding the ball in two games Denver has a shot)

On the down side. . . Denver could get worn down as the season moves on. They'll be in a dogfight for the 2 seed til the end. Chauncey has worn down the last two conference finals and it could happen again. And there are some really critical pieces beyond the stars that Denver simply can't replace over seven games because of how specialized those players are. Kenyon goes down? Now Malik Allen is going to play 20 minutes in a game. Ty Lawson goes down? Now we get Anthony Carter.The Nuggets 9-12 players don't belong on an NBA roster. If they have injuries, that will get exposed quickly and they may not make it out of round 2.

[RainMaker]

OK, NBA and David Stern. If you are going to set up a system for superstars, make it equal for all stars. Artest has thugged it up on Melo all game long. Then Melo fouls out for pushing Artest's arm away?

Seriously Stern, get your crap together. That wasn't a foul to begin with. with the way the game has been called, it clearly wasn't a foul. And you don't take Carmelo Anthony out of a close game on a call like that.

That call is unacceptable. Period.

(and no, the Nuggets won't lose because of that call, but that was horrible)
Stern doesn't get into fixing games till the playoffs.

[TroyF]

My reaction was harsh, but that foul call against Carmelo was just ridiculous. The ref in that situation needs to be fined if nothing else. It was either incompetence, money on the game or a hatred of Carmelo. I can't say enough about how bad that call was.

FWIW, I think Phoenix beats Denver pretty good tonight. 4th game in 5 nights for the Nuggets. An emotional loss in a real physical game in LA. I think the Suns have a great shot.

Shaq injured. I think this could be the best thing that ever happened to Cleveland. Shaq will now be fresh for the playoffs. Z will also get minutes (in 25 days or so) and be fresh for the playoffs. Things are setting up ridiculously good for Cleveland.

[Chief Rum]

Both times this year the game involved skill, the Nuggets mopped the floor with the Lakers. Destroyed them.

You listed all of the things that happened with the Lakers, but how about what happened to the Nuggets? Ty Lawson played 6 minutes before getting hurt. He's someone the Lakers haven't even contained this year. The Nuggets shot 36%, and hit only 28% on 25 three point attempts. In last years playoff against the Lakers they shot that poorly exactly 0 times. In fact, this was the single worst shooting exhibition the Nuggets have had this year, both from two point and three point land. Yet when the BS foul call was made on Melo the Nuggets had the ball in a four point game.

All in all, I think Denver can feel pretty good about themselves.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't yesterday the first time the Nuggets even played the Lakers with all the Laker stars healthy? I know Kobe missed the last one. And I think Gasol missed the first. So I am not sure yet what to take from those two games, especially with a Lakers team that seems to be falling toward a Spurs attitude where they seem to be complacent until they get to the playoffs.

Also, I like Lawson, too, but I really think you overrate his impact. Billups and Smith have more of an impact for the Nuggets than Lawson does (against any team, much less the Lakers), and if Lawson's on the floor, one of those two ain't. I think it would be nice to see Lawson get more time, and the Nuggets definitely got a good steal in getting him where they did, but I don't think he rates better than several guards in this past year's draft (admittedly a strong one), including Evans, Jennings, Curry, maybe Harden and probably now Collison with how he's playing.

If the Lakers lose to the Nuggets in the playoffs, I'll guarantee you now it won't be because of Lawson.

[jbergey22]

I´d call that a sign of complacency and unless they happen to face a Laker team missing Bryant and Gasol it won´t exactly be an issue.

I dunno, i´d propably weigh them playing bad against the really good teams ("the big games") more *telling* for the playoffs than playing bad against bad teams.

I´m not even thinking they beat the Lakers, just found that reason you gave a bit off :)

This goes right with what I think the problem with the Nuggets is though. Why do they get compacent in the first place? They havent exactly proved so much that they can kick back for a game or two and have a walk in the park. It's bad leadership or inconsistency or something.

You dont see the Lakers or Cavs losing around 50 percent of their games against bad teams.

Talentwise I think Troy is right that the Nuggets are right there with the Lakers but its still the mental side that is going to finish them off once again.

IMO Billups should not be the leader of this team it should be Carmello. When you are a top 5 player in the league you need to be the leader of the team.

[jbergey22]

They've blown some horrible games this year. As far as your point though, I think you are missing something. It's not a sign of inconsistency or complacency as much as it is about a sign that Denver is not nearly as deep as most other teams.




OK I will give you this.

They are certainly not deep which doesnt help them on longer road trips or back to backs.

It still doesnt explain to me why one game they will look like the best team in the NBA and the next week I will watch them and they look like they could care less about playing that game. This has been the Nuggets of the past 2/3 years and not much has seemed to change this year.

If lack of depth or being tired or whatever is the reason they are losing to these sub 500 teams I just cant imagine how we can consider them a playoff threat. The playoffs are tough and they are going to have to show toughness game in and game out to win the NBA Championship. If by game 4 they are tired I cant see them being able to close out a series against a tough team.

[TroyF]

Aren't we blowing things out of proportion a bit jbergey? As of now, they have the fourth best record in the NBA. (and that'll be an outrite tie for the 3rd best team if they were to win tonight)

That's with Melo missing 13 games, Chauncey Billups missing 9 games, JR missing 7 (due to suspension) and Kenyon missing 6 games. I'm not suggesting that the Warriors are a playoff threat. I'm suggesting the second best team in the conference over the last 1.5 years, a team who took the Lakers to the brink last year and a team who has played unblievably well vs. playoff teams has a real chance to do damage.

I'm also saying that yesterday the Nuggets were on the wrong end of an unbelievably bad call, shot worse than they have in a game in over a year and were still right there. Assuming the Nuggets can stay healthy, I don't think my assertion that they can beat the Lakers (or anyone else) is some sort of a reach.

If that's a reach, we may as well not even hold the playoffs. The Lakers and Cavs will cruise into the finals like last year. . . errrr. . . sorry Cavs fans. :)

[Chief Rum]

Aren't we blowing things out of proportion a bit jbergey? As of now, they have the fourth best record in the NBA. (and that'll be an outrite tie for the 3rd best team if they were to win tonight)

That's with Melo missing 13 games, Chauncey Billups missing 9 games, JR missing 7 (due to suspension) and Kenyon missing 6 games. I'm not suggesting that the Warriors are a playoff threat. I'm suggesting the second best team in the conference over the last 1.5 years, a team who took the Lakers to the brink last year and a team who has played unblievably well vs. playoff teams has a real chance to do damage.

I'm also saying that yesterday the Nuggets were on the wrong end of an unbelievably bad call, shot worse than they have in a game in over a year and were still right there. Assuming the Nuggets can stay healthy, I don't think my assertion that they can beat the Lakers (or anyone else) is some sort of a reach.

If that's a reach, we may as well not even hold the playoffs. The Lakers and Cavs will cruise into the finals like last year. . . errrr. . . sorry Cavs fans. :)

I agree with most of this. I don't think the issues with sub-.500 teams are a big deal, and I think it's unquestionably true that the Nuggets are the #2 team in the conference for sure, and that they are the clear top contender to take out the Lakers.

That said, I think you need to give credit where credit's due. You talk about the Nuggets' awful shooting day in two separate posts, and not once do you mention there was a team playing defense against them that might have had something to do with it.

And as for the bad call, sorry one call doesn't make the game. There was one play I saw one time when I flipped over from hockey where Kobe was manhandled by (I believe it was) JR Smith, forcing a Kobe turnover, and when Kobe predictably flipped out, they T'd Kobe up. It was pretty blatant, and got the Nuggets a point and a possession (don't remember if they scored). It was a ridiculously poor call by the refs; Smith smacked Kobe in the head on his way to slapping the ball. But it's just a call.

The Nuggets lost because they, the players, lost, not because of a call by the ref. They lost because they had a nice lead in the first half and abused Kobe into a poor day, but they didn't keep the lead. If you're looking for culprits, look to Denver's players, not the whistleblowers.

[whomario]

Also, I like Lawson, too, but I really think you overrate his impact. Billups and Smith have more of an impact for the Nuggets than Lawson does (against any team, much less the Lakers), and if Lawson's on the floor, one of those two ain't. I think it would be nice to see Lawson get more time, and the Nuggets definitely got a good steal in getting him where they did, but I don't think he rates better than several guards in this past year's draft (admittedly a strong one), including Evans, Jennings, Curry, maybe Harden and probably now Collison with how he's playing.

If the Lakers lose to the Nuggets in the playoffs, I'll guarantee you now it won't be because of Lawson.


I do agree, however (and i think that´s mainly what TroF is aiming at): it has been proven time and time again that the Lakers have big, big trouble guarding quick PGs.
The problem will be to exploit that while still keeping Billups and Smith on the court which will be near impossible. Heck, even playing just Lawson and Billups at the same time is near impossible as long as the Lakers play PG/Bryant/Artest/Gasol(Odom)/Bynum(Gasol).

Basically he´ll be a backup to Billups who´ll likely play 36-40 minutes.

[jbergey22]

Aren't we blowing things out of proportion a bit jbergey? As of now, they have the fourth best record in the NBA. (and that'll be an outrite tie for the 3rd best team if they were to win tonight)

That's with Melo missing 13 games, Chauncey Billups missing 9 games, JR missing 7 (due to suspension) and Kenyon missing 6 games. I'm not suggesting that the Warriors are a playoff threat. I'm suggesting the second best team in the conference over the last 1.5 years, a team who took the Lakers to the brink last year and a team who has played unblievably well vs. playoff teams has a real chance to do damage.

I'm also saying that yesterday the Nuggets were on the wrong end of an unbelievably bad call, shot worse than they have in a game in over a year and were still right there. Assuming the Nuggets can stay healthy, I don't think my assertion that they can beat the Lakers (or anyone else) is some sort of a reach.

If that's a reach, we may as well not even hold the playoffs. The Lakers and Cavs will cruise into the finals like last year. . . errrr. . . sorry Cavs fans. :)

Id like it if you were right. I find the Spurs and Mavs boring. I am hoping its Denver that pushes the Lakers.

They are fun to watch when they are playing well like they are this moment.