WW LXV-- Enter the CUBICLE (GAME OVER! See Post #1625 For Final Game Post)

[claphamsa]

wow... quite A RUN....

UNVOTE JACKALL

[Passacaglia]

Well that is b/c you are a Michigan fan, but in spite of this flaw, we've all learned to accept you as you are and wade through your lengthy and convoluted posts ;)

Just kidding Pass - you know I just like to give you shit every now and then! But deep down you know I love you :p

I'll think of that whenever I use my Michigan blanket! Maybe it'll help me figure out what just happened while I was away from the computer for a few minutes... :confused:

[RendeR]

damnit people stop votng for the same guy as I type ;)

[ntndeacon]

I'm still torn on the Pass/AlanT debate, I just don't know what to think. Everything either of them has said could vouch for them being good, or it could be that they are wolves on opposite teams and are trying to off each other. Since I can't decide which of them I trust, I'm going to just go with my gut and vote on someone I know I don't trust at this point...NTNDeacon. He's been way too quiet throughout the whole game, and we are a week into it at this point...he's a good player, but not as "well known" as RendeR/Path/Pass/Alan/Lathum...I'm worried that he's letting them take the heat and battle things out, and he's just laying low and letting them fight while he is behind the scenes.

VOTE NTNDEACON

As always, I'm leaving the option of changing my vote out there, but unless something big goes down, probably won't.

I admit that would have been my ploy if I was a wolf. Of course it is my ploy in a lot of games. :) Even with out the now 3 votes on me it would be pretty easy to vote me off. so I don't mind horribly being voted for. Of course I will try to make a few of you change your minds though.

[oliegirl]

I'll think of that whenever I use my Michigan blanket! Maybe it'll help me figure out what just happened while I was away from the computer for a few minutes... :confused:

I was gonna ask if you still had it :)

You know I was just teasing you...and as for what happened, it looks like everyone decided at the same time (including me) that NTN was the way to vote today...

[ntndeacon]

in terms of why I am voting as I am. I admit that it is possible that I am being lead around by the nose on Pass. But I tend to agree with Alan and Arles' early ideas on Pass.

[Mr. Wednesday]

This is cribbed from Alan's post after I think day 3. While voting records are not necessarily definitive, I also think that the wolves have less latitude than usual to spread their votes due to the Cougar vs. Crew dynamic.

bulletsponge (7) -- Barkeep (95), oliegirl (110), Arles (163), Render (199), st.cronin (233), Mr. Wednesday (262), Lathum (227)
Lathum (5)-- claphamsa (97), bsak16 (162), SnDvls (207), Passacaglia (238), bulletsponge (240)
oliegirl (2)-- Alan T (123), Schmidty (134)
The Jackal (2)-- jeheinz (148), Farrah Whitworth-Rahn (208)
Barkeep49 (1)-- path12 (130)
Schmidty (1)-- mauboy1 (135)
Passacaglia (1)-- ntndeacon (136)
Mr. Wednesday (1)-- finkenst (253)
jeheinz (1)-- the Jackal (256)


finkenst (9)-- jeheinz72 (360), path12 (377), The Jackal (414), Lathum (426), SnDvls (489), Render (491), Passacaglia (568), Schmidty (578), mauboy1 (590)
Render (5)-- Arles (361), oliegirl (403), claphamsa (514), Farrah Whitworth-Rahn (518), Mr. Wednesday (685)
Lathum (1)-- bsak16 (395)
SnDvls (1)-- ntndeacon (392)
Farrah Whitworth-Rahn (1)-- st.cronin (346)
jeheinz72 (1)-- Alan T (349)

Not Voted: finkenst


Farrah Whitworth-Rahn (7)-- Passacaglia (719), mauboy1 (721), Alan T (750), oliegirl (804), ntndeacon (805), The Jackal (811), SnDvls (815)
SnDvls (3)-- Farrah Whitworth-Rahn (837), Mr. Wednesday (842), path12 (868)
bsak16 (2)-- Lathum (818), Schmidty (872)
Lathum (2)-- bsak16 (769), Render (788)
mauboy1 (1)-- jeheinz72 (778)
path12 (1)-- Arles (720)
Alan T (1)-- claphamsa (767)[/quote]

----

Day 4 Count (as of Post 1082) ultimately final

mauboy1 (11)-- Passacaglia (954), Alan T (963), claphamsa (971), ntndeacon (977), Schmidty (989), bsak16 (991), jeheinz (992), Render (999), oliegirl (1027), The Jackal (1032), path12 (1074)
Passacaglia (4)-- Arles (1022), Mr. Wednesday (1062), mauboy1 (1075), Lathum (1080)


Day 5 Final Count

bsak16 (9)-- path12 (1135), Lathum (1138), Render (1182), Passacaglia (1185), oliegirl (1186), Alan T (1189), The Jackal (1195), Schmidty (1198), ntndeacon (1200)
Lathum (1)-- bsak16 (1136)
Passacaglia (1)-- Mr. Wednesday (1166)

Not Voted: claphamsa, jeheinz72


We basically learned nothing yesterday. Day 4 was somewhat more interesting, as three known non-wolves plus me (claimed as a non-wolf) voted for Passacaglia. About the only thing I'd take from that is that there's a degree of likelihood that he isn't Crew. But I don't take much more away from the day than that.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Maybe Passacaglia was unlucky, or intentionally spoofed, in his voting record in the first three days. He's a pretty good suspect at this point.

ntndeacon is an interesting candidate. He voted for Passacaglia on day 1 and SnDvls on day 2, where neither were in any danger; that could be a pair of "trust trail" votes. The vote for Farrah was right in the range were it might be classified as decisive, pushing it into rout territory (the next nearest competitor SnDvls didn't have one vote yet at that point). The mauboy1 vote was very early, the bsak vote was a late pile-on. Also, he announced early on today that he was going to vote with me, which might be a play to curry favor with me, or to cast suspicion on me.

I'm not sure there's anything there that makes me feel strongly, though.

[ntndeacon]

I am glad the SnDvls vote was mentioned. on that day there was a list that someone put out, (I think Arles) He had done his analysis of the game t othat point, and suggested three possible names. he went Render. I had the theory at the time that Arles was bad and was giving a list that had some that were villagers and some wolves from the other tribe. I figured he had voted for a villager to further himself in the eyes of our moderator, so I chose another on that list.

[Passacaglia]

I was gonna ask if you still had it :)

You know I was just teasing you...and as for what happened, it looks like everyone decided at the same time (including me) that NTN was the way to vote today...

Yeah of course I know you were just teasing!

And yeah, looking at how it went down, it seems likely you and JE voted at the same time. It's timestamped at the same minute, and your post is a lot longer -- I doubt you could have seen JE's post, then typed yours up, all in the same minute.

[oliegirl]

LOL...I started typing, then got interrupted, so it took me about 20 minutes to get my vote posted...when I hit submit, there were already 2 or 3 other votes for him.

[jeheinz72]

Strange run or not, my vote is stickin'.

Catch you guys in the AM.

[path12]

We basically learned nothing yesterday. Day 4 was somewhat more interesting, as three known non-wolves plus me (claimed as a non-wolf) voted for Passacaglia. About the only thing I'd take from that is that there's a degree of likelihood that he isn't Crew. But I don't take much more away from the day than that.


I don't think we get much from the day 4 voting either when you consider that Pass only had two votes on him by the time Mauboy1 had like 11 or so. There wouldn't have been much inducement for any of the wolves not to join in that pile-on, I'd think.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Yeah, I guess I should have said "only slightly more interesting". It really was interesting to me to see three in blue plus myself on Passacaglia, though, I hadn't realized at the time that it worked out like that.

It always seemed like you would have something interesting to say in the first few games I played with you... any deep thoughts?

[path12]

It always seemed like you would have something interesting to say in the first few games I played with you... any deep thoughts?

I assume that after those first couple games you realized that I usually don't have anything interesting to say.......

I keep looking over the voting and thinking that I should be able to pick out the teams from that, but don't seem to have much luck. I do think that it is most likely that Passacaglia and Alan are both wolves on different teams. I'm not sure which is which though. It's the only thing that makes sense to me with the back and forth that they have been going through. Keys back to my central theory that people pushing agendas on others are most likely bad in this game.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I've been leaning towards sticking with the Passacaglia vote all day, and I've settled on doing just that.

VOTE PASSACAGLIA

Hopefully we learn more today than we did the previous two days.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I assume that after those first couple games you realized that I usually don't have anything interesting to say.......

I keep looking over the voting and thinking that I should be able to pick out the teams from that, but don't seem to have much luck. I do think that it is most likely that Passacaglia and Alan are both wolves on different teams. I'm not sure which is which though. It's the only thing that makes sense to me with the back and forth that they have been going through. Keys back to my central theory that people pushing agendas on others are most likely bad in this game.

There's not much to argue with here, in general (and seriously, I do usually find something interesting in your offhand comments when you're not a wolf), but one observation I would make of Alan is that he tends to push an agenda in every game he plays. That would make him look more wolf-like in this game, whether or not he is one.

[oliegirl]

Has anyone been keeping track of the vote count?

[Passacaglia]

Has anyone been keeping track of the vote count?

Not enough. I'll go back and look.

[Passacaglia]

Passacaglia -- Alan T (1208), ntndeacon (1217), Mr. Wednesday (1266)
Alan T -- Passacaglia (1212)
ntndeacon -- jeheinz72 (1247), oliegirl (1248), RendeR (1249)

[Passacaglia]

not vote -- claphamsa, path12, Schmidty, The Jackal

[oliegirl]

A 2 way tie with 4 votes out there...47 minutes til deadline.

You gonna move your vote in the interest of self preservation Pass????

[claphamsa]

so no votes for a loooong time. and were tied! pass seems more guilty to me! but i can be changed!

vote passacaligula

[The Jackal]

Hm, this is an important vote. Pass or deacon. I still have twenty minutes so I'm going to look through a few pages before I decide. If either of you are around and what to sum up to me why I should vote for the other, feel free.

[path12]

but one observation I would make of Alan is that he tends to push an agenda in every game he plays. That would make him look more wolf-like in this game, whether or not he is one.

I don't disagree with that, but I'd expect more of a helpful villager vibe, which I'm not getting this time for some reason. But I'll freely admit that Alan is always kind of hard for me to read.

[path12]

Well, I said I'd leave the Pass/Alan thing alone, so I will.

VOTE NTNDEACON

I wish I had a better reason than you're the only other candidate, but I don't.

[Passacaglia]

A 2 way tie with 4 votes out there...47 minutes til deadline.

You gonna move your vote in the interest of self preservation Pass????

Of course!

UNVOTE ALAN T
VOTE NTNDEACON

[Mr. Wednesday]

One observation: Pretty much all the golfing buddies are gone, but none of the temps. A tie would be a bad thing, as a tie between a wolf and a temp would lynch the temp.

[claphamsa]

I agree.....

[claphamsa]

do we know how many temps?

[The Jackal]

I'm honestly not sure which of these two I think is a wolf, so I'm going to let the majority to this point decide it, instead of trying to force a tie.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Feel free to cast a vote somewhere else to make a point.

[Mr. Wednesday]

claphamsa, no, we don't know how many temps.

[claphamsa]

am i the onlyone hanfing out for the deadline?

[Alan T]

I'm not that suprised that someone managed to find a way to save Passacaglia near the deadline. I am a little suprised at one of the two people who were involved in it though.

Oh well, if Pass is still alive tommorrow, I'll vote him again.

[Alan T]

am i the onlyone hanfing out for the deadline?


Chief won't be home for a few hours from work. I'm east coast and get up in 7 hours for work. So I'm heading to bed myself, I'll check out the outcome in the morning.

[ntndeacon]

well even with it tied y'all wolves were ok. you were gonna get me lynched even then.

[RendeR]

Wow, little or nothing after all that earlier? If there are people who were around and didn't vote I'm gonna seriously look at you guys next. No excuse not to vote in one direction or the other, maybe right, maybe wrong but sitting back doing nothing is always wrong.

NTN if you're a temp I'm sorry, but I had to go with what I had in front of me. I probably should have split between pass and alan, but knowing we've got one wolf team ahead of the other It made me pause for fear of handing one wolf group an easy win.

Sorry dude.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Uh, RendeR, I'm 99% sure that if Passacaglia is a wolf, he's a Cougar.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, which is to say, you're only helping the wolves if he's not a wolf. If he is a wolf, he's almost certainly the type of wolf we want to be offing.

[Chief Rum]

One question Chief before you go, if the fish is converted, and then killed do they show up as a wolf or a fish? Maybe Lathum was right that bsak was the fish afterall.

Both. The Fish will be ID'd as the Fish, and then what side he is on, which reveals if he had been converted or not.

[Chief Rum]

Chief, is there any penalty for not voting? Just want to be sure before I get goin' too much.

No, I said earlier I wouldn't have that (although I thought about switching just because clap actually posted he was leaving for the weekend the other day without bothering to vote ;) ).

[Chief Rum]

Final Day 6 Count

ntndeacon (5)-- jeheinz72 (1247), oliegirl (1248), Render (1249), path12 (1276), Passacaglia (1277)
Passacaglia (4)-- Alan T (1208), ntndeacon (1217), Mr. Wednesday (1266), claphamsa (1273)

No Vote: Schmidty, The Jackal

[Chief Rum]

At this point, the department is just weary from the stress. Is there no end in sight?

Several days of ironclad "locks" in voting have given way to confusion today, as several candidates are brought up.

It is with some surprise that three rise at once to proclaim the name of one whom has yet been much mentioned--ntndeacon. Still others claim Passacaglia needs to go. It becomes a race to the end.

At the end of the day, the Boss calls both Passacaglia and ntndeacon into the office. He speaks with both of them briefly, and then walks with them to the door.

As he is about to close the door on the pair, everyone can hear him say, "I'm sorry, ntndeacon, but as a temp worker, it is simply easier to let you go right now. Please clear out your things."

ntndeacon has been fired! He was just a Temp and on the side of the Department!

The Boss then walks over to Alan's desk at wrap up time. He whispers in his ear, and no one can make out what he says until the end.

"I hope you had your resume out there, Alan," the Boss said, not unkindly. "You had to know with your friends gone, you likely wouldn't stick around much longer either. Good luck, son."

Alan T has been fired by wolf influence--and he was a WOLF! The last remaining member of the Crew!

With the Crew eliminated, the Cougars now become a regular wolf team, attempting to achieve a 1:1 ratio with the Department. The Department's goal of complete wolf annihilation remains the same.

Day Seven Deadline with be 10 p.m. EST/7 p.m. PDT!

(and this time I will be here).

[Mr. Wednesday]

VOTE PASSACAGLIA

I have a hard time believing Alan would be tilting that hard at someone who wasn't a Cougar.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Updating the omnibus...

bulletsponge (7) -- Barkeep (95), oliegirl (110), Arles (163), Render (199), st.cronin (233), Mr. Wednesday (262), Lathum (227)
Lathum (5)-- claphamsa (97), bsak16 (162), SnDvls (207), Passacaglia (238), bulletsponge (240)
oliegirl (2)-- Alan T (123), Schmidty (134)
The Jackal (2)-- jeheinz (148), Farrah Whitworth-Rahn (208)
Barkeep49 (1)-- path12 (130)
Schmidty (1)-- mauboy1 (135)
Passacaglia (1)-- ntndeacon (136)
Mr. Wednesday (1)-- finkenst (253)
jeheinz (1)-- the Jackal (256)


finkenst (9)-- jeheinz72 (360), path12 (377), The Jackal (414), Lathum (426), SnDvls (489), Render (491), Passacaglia (568), Schmidty (578), mauboy1 (590)
Render (5)-- Arles (361), oliegirl (403), claphamsa (514), Farrah Whitworth-Rahn (518), Mr. Wednesday (685)
Lathum (1)-- bsak16 (395)
SnDvls (1)-- ntndeacon (392)
Farrah Whitworth-Rahn (1)-- st.cronin (346)
jeheinz72 (1)-- Alan T (349)

Not Voted: finkenst


Farrah Whitworth-Rahn (7)-- Passacaglia (719), mauboy1 (721), Alan T (750), oliegirl (804), ntndeacon (805), The Jackal (811), SnDvls (815)
SnDvls (3)-- Farrah Whitworth-Rahn (837), Mr. Wednesday (842), path12 (868)
bsak16 (2)-- Lathum (818), Schmidty (872)
Lathum (2)-- bsak16 (769), Render (788)
mauboy1 (1)-- jeheinz72 (778)
path12 (1)-- Arles (720)
Alan T (1)-- claphamsa (767)

Day 4 Count (as of Post 1082) ultimately final

mauboy1 (11)-- Passacaglia (954), Alan T (963), claphamsa (971), ntndeacon (977), Schmidty (989), bsak16 (991), jeheinz (992), Render (999), oliegirl (1027), The Jackal (1032), path12 (1074)
Passacaglia (4)-- Arles (1022), Mr. Wednesday (1062), mauboy1 (1075), Lathum (1080)


Day 5 Final Count

bsak16 (9)-- path12 (1135), Lathum (1138), Render (1182), Passacaglia (1185), oliegirl (1186), Alan T (1189), The Jackal (1195), Schmidty (1198), ntndeacon (1200)
Lathum (1)-- bsak16 (1136)
Passacaglia (1)-- Mr. Wednesday (1166)

Not Voted: claphamsa, jeheinz72


Final Day 6 Count

ntndeacon (5)-- jeheinz72 (1247), oliegirl (1248), Render (1249), path12 (1276), Passacaglia (1277)
Passacaglia (4)-- Alan T (1208), ntndeacon (1217), Mr. Wednesday (1266), claphamsa (1273)

No Vote: Schmidty, The Jackal

[Mr. Wednesday]

I count nine players remaining, of whom three are Cougars and the remainder are normal workers or temps.

[Passacaglia]

VOTE PASSACAGLIA

I have a hard time believing Alan would be tilting that hard at someone who wasn't a Cougar.

Really? Wouldn't that be his optimal strategy? He was the lone member of his team, heavily outnumbered. Shouldn't his strategy be to go after villagers and remain nonconfrontational, just to stay alive?

[Passacaglia]

But I'll have to think on this more -- I expected Alan to be a member of the Cougars, so this is a surprise to me.

[oliegirl]

I'm really not sure what my read on Pass is, he's been fairly laid back (at least for him) which makes me wonder if he is a wolf. But I don't really have a good read on anyone else at this point either, which of course, sucks. Not sure where today will go...

I'll be out for part of the day, we are heading out to find a new puppy, but we'll be home by 3 ET.

[claphamsa]

No, I said earlier I wouldn't have that (although I thought about switching just because clap actually posted he was leaving for the weekend the other day without bothering to vote ;) ).
Thought I had already voted :(

[RendeR]

Well when I'm wrong I'm wrong. Sorry NTN.

VOTE PASSACAGLIA


Only valid target for today based on recent events.

[Passacaglia]

I thought about this some more on my way to work, and I still don't see why I would be on the opposite wolf team. We know that Alan T was all by himself, since his teammates fink, farrah, and bsak were gone. The other wolf team has three left? Maybe four if they've found the Fish? How can he expect to go up against another wolf, when there's three or four guys he knows will protect him? I think his best play has got to be offering up a villager, and hoping the other wolves settle for a truce, then hoping he can win the wolf vs. wolf night last night.

Meanwhile, a run on another villager started up. With the vote close between me and ntn, the other wolves were left with two villagers, and not much concern over who dies. I think it was all the same to them -- thus the relatively slow day. But a comment right before deadline by The Jackal struck me.

I'm honestly not sure which of these two I think is a wolf, so I'm going to let the majority to this point decide it, instead of trying to force a tie.

To me, that reaks of a wolf watching a villager-villager vote.

VOTE THE JACKAL

[jeheinz72]

I just can't get around the fact of his activity level, NYC trip or not, has been near nothing

Vote claphamsa

[Passacaglia]

I just can't get around the fact of his activity level, NYC trip or not, has been near nothing

Vote claphamsa

He must have taken too much time at his favorite New York pizza place...Sbarro's!

[claphamsa]

He must have taken too much time at his favorite New York pizza place...Sbarro's!
I cant eat pizza, im alergic to tomatoes!

[claphamsa]

vote pass

I had him ealrier, so im stickign with it!

[Passacaglia]

vote pass

I had him ealrier, so im stickign with it!

clap, you should check out what I've read today -- werewolf games change from day to day -- a vote yesterday doesn't really mean you should vote the same today. Look at RendeR, and how much trouble he was in Day 1 and 2, but now the heat is pretty much off him.

And look at The Jackal. Do you see what I'm saying about his post right before the deadline? He could have cinched it for ntn, or he could have tied it. But he didn't care who died -- this is surely a wolf that's okay with anything, as long as a villager goes down, either me or ntn, it doesn't matter.

His action to purposely not vote was made for two reasons -- first, to avoid a tie. We don't know what happens in a tie, but if there's a chance that neither of us died, it hurts him. Also, he wanted to avoid being one of the last votes on somebody -- he saw how that put me and mauboy in hot water when we voted for fink late, and wanted to stay away. Otherwise, if you're sitting there that late on Day 6, with tons of info out there, why not just make a decision?

[jeheinz72]

vote pass

I had him ealrier, so im stickign with it!

I have to admit I feel like I missed a lot of the Alan/Pass back-and-forth. What was the case against Pass (if you don't mind summarizing)

[RendeR]

And look at The Jackal. Do you see what I'm saying about his post right before the deadline? He could have cinched it for ntn, or he could have tied it. But he didn't care who died -- this is surely a wolf that's okay with anything, as long as a villager goes down, either me or ntn, it doesn't matter.

His action to purposely not vote was made for two reasons -- first, to avoid a tie. We don't know what happens in a tie, but if there's a chance that neither of us died, it hurts him. Also, he wanted to avoid being one of the last votes on somebody -- he saw how that put me and mauboy in hot water when we voted for fink late, and wanted to stay away. Otherwise, if you're sitting there that late on Day 6, with tons of info out there, why not just make a decision?


based on what you just posted I'd say he did it to ensure NTN went down and save your ass. NTN wasn't a wolf, and he'd know that if he's a wolf. Assuming as most of us have that all the golf buddies are gone he could have ignored voting unless someone jumped on you late to put you ahead and then voted NTN to ensure it either way.

If I am to believe your post here I almost have to believe that you and he are on the same wolf team. So we'll vote you off today and him tomorrow.

[Passacaglia]

based on what you just posted I'd say he did it to ensure NTN went down and save your ass. NTN wasn't a wolf, and he'd know that if he's a wolf. Assuming as most of us have that all the golf buddies are gone he could have ignored voting unless someone jumped on you late to put you ahead and then voted NTN to ensure it either way.

If I am to believe your post here I almost have to believe that you and he are on the same wolf team. So we'll vote you off today and him tomorrow.

Why would you assume all the golf buddies are gone? The Comic is still around.

[path12]

Interesting. I wasn't sure if Alan was a wolf or not. I think that resolves the Pass question pretty well in my mind -- the only other person I can think of voting for today would be Schmidty just because he hasn't been around. I'm always in favor of voting those who aren't around. But for now:

VOTE PASSACAGLIA

[Mr. Wednesday]

His action to purposely not vote was made for two reasons -- first, to avoid a tie. We don't know what happens in a tie, but if there's a chance that neither of us died, it hurts him.
As I stated quite clearly, an apparent tie works to the benefit of the wolves: there are none of the golfing buddies left who get an automatic -1 to their total, and there was at least one temp left who would get an automatic +1 to their total.

Also, he wanted to avoid being one of the last votes on somebody -- he saw how that put me and mauboy in hot water when we voted for fink late, and wanted to stay away. Otherwise, if you're sitting there that late on Day 6, with tons of info out there, why not just make a decision?
You are really, really reaching here.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Why would you assume all the golf buddies are gone? The Comic is still around.
Oops, you're right. I forgot about him.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Double dola, even with one golfing buddy left, I still feel like there were likely to be more temps than that remaining, so a tie would still more probably work to the benefit of the wolves.

[The Jackal]

vote pass

I'm sorry if my non-vote reeks to you of wolf behavior, but I think I had a legitimate reason for not voting, and I explained myself. I think the heated back and forth between Alan and Pass is enough to convince me that Alan was desperately trying to get a cougar eliminated to give the crew some sort of shot.

[Passacaglia]

As I stated quite clearly, an apparent tie works to the benefit of the wolves: there are none of the golfing buddies left who get an automatic -1 to their total, and there was at least one temp left who would get an automatic +1 to their total.


You are really, really reaching here.

So, wouldn't causing a tie make him look more wolfish? I think he was afraid to cause a tie, and afraid to give ntn a 2-vote lead. RendeR claims that his non-vote was in effect saving me, but I think if he really wanted to save me, he'd have put his vote on ntn just to make sure there were no last-minute shenanigans. On the other hand, I can see where RendeR is coming from -- the wolves probably know that I'd definitely be on the block today, and the same can't be said for ntn. I can definitely see them wanting to get rid of ntn yesterday, so they can get rid of me today.

[jeheinz72]

I dunno Pass. I wasn't going to go this route but it seems like you're over-explaining now. If you're innocent, then wow does the voting record not look good. Here goes nothing

Unvote claphamsa
Vote Passacaglia

[Passacaglia]

But really, what part of my voting record looks bad? I feel like I've managed to take heat for voting for wolves, but also voting for villagers. I feel like I've been put in a difficult position by the powers that be, with no way to really dig myself out. But, what about my votes is there to dispute?

Day 1 -- I think I left my vote on ntn? I don't remember really, but hey, it's Day 1.
Day 2 -- Vote for RendeR, switch to fink, wolf.
Day 3 -- Vote for Farrah, wolf. I guess the thinking among some was that we shouldn't have gone after her, because she was a wolf on the wrong team, but given who pushed for that, I can see why it was pushed.
Day 4 -- Vote for mauboy, villager (but acting strangely)
Day 5 -- Vote for Alan, switched to bsak -- both wolves. I was wrong about what team Alan was on, but bsak was also acting strangely
Day 6 -- Vote for Alan, switched to ntn in self defense.

Keep in mind that Days 3, 4, and 5 were bandwagons, and it's not like I was screaming like a chicken with its head cut off about them. I placed my votes, gave my reasons, and everyone else followed because they were the right moves. How is that wolfish?

[jeheinz72]

Well I guess that's my point man, it's not that you haven't been successful in taking out wolves, you certainly have, they just so happen to all reside on the same team...that makes me think you basically aided in the dismissal of the majority of the Crew, so you're likely a Cougar.

I would think someone that is truly innocent wouldn't be so deft at it. I mean I know I have no idea who the wolves were and haven't been able to hit the broad side of a barn for the most part

[jeheinz72]

Plus if I'm doing the math right, there are 9 people left and we know at least 3 Cougars on the prowl. That's with the thought that the Fish hasn't been converted at all. If he has, heck we're one mis-step from losing. So, for me, if it boils down to one vote by me with the entire department life on the line, I feel most confident in the vote for you.

[claphamsa]

were down to 9 people? wow!

[Passacaglia]

Well I guess that's my point man, it's not that you haven't been successful in taking out wolves, you certainly have, they just so happen to all reside on the same team...that makes me think you basically aided in the dismissal of the majority of the Crew, so you're likely a Cougar.

I would think someone that is truly innocent wouldn't be so deft at it. I mean I know I have no idea who the wolves were and haven't been able to hit the broad side of a barn for the most part

But that's the thing -- I haven't been deft at it, it's just sort of happened.

fink -- close race with Render on Day 2, early on, and I (along with other villagers) chose the guy who hadn't posted at all
Farrah -- cronin scanned her
Alan -- came after me
bsak -- odd behavior toward Lathum, the bodyguard

Keep in mind that Farrah and bsak were bandwagon votes -- again, it's not like I *knew* they were wolves -- I voted for them based on the same thing that made TONS of other people vote for them. And if you think Alan wouldn't set up a villager to die after he's gone, you need to play with him a few more times!

[Passacaglia]

The other thing is, it's not like I've been THAT succesful taking out wolves. I've also voted for mau and ntn. I'll grant you that ntn was a self-defense vote, but I thought we had something on mau, and I took a lot of heat for it -- there were a few "if mau turns up good, we'll look at pass tomorrow" comments. I just feel like I'm being reasoned against on opposite ends.

[Passacaglia]

were down to 9 people? wow!

Yes, so it's really important we do the right thing here. It's at best 6-3, at worst 5-4. The game could end here tonight, unless someone does something to stop it.

[jeheinz72]

Well the mau one just about everyone screwed up on, including myself.

I don't know about Alan setting up a villager, at least not in this dynamic. Why would he help the Cougars out like that? He was the last man standing on his team and so he knew the other squad was coming for him last night as a wolf v wolf. I don't know how they figure out who kills who for the wolves, but he had to know that time wasn't exactly on his side and he couldn't sit around lynching villagers if he wanted to win.

[Passacaglia]

Well the mau one just about everyone screwed up on, including myself.

I don't know about Alan setting up a villager, at least not in this dynamic. Why would he help the Cougars out like that? He was the last man standing on his team and so he knew the other squad was coming for him last night as a wolf v wolf. I don't know how they figure out who kills who for the wolves, but he had to know that time wasn't exactly on his side and he couldn't sit around lynching villagers if he wanted to win.

But remember, when he started coming after me, bsak was alive.

[jeheinz72]

But remember, when he started coming after me, bsak was alive.

That's a good point. But I don't know if it's enough for me to shake my confidence.

Or put more succinctly, if you grade out as say a "B-minus" as far as my thoughts of you being a wolf, the rest are all F's and D's. I'm not exactly seeing a whole lotta options here.

[path12]

Bsak wasn't just because of the Lathum thing (we actually didn't know Lathum was the bodyguard until late that day when he revealed, remember). It was at least partially because of his voting records and arguments about others as well as Lathum.

Pass, let me ask you this. If not you, who is the best person to look at? If you have a case against a better candidate I'll look at it, but as of now I can't see anyone that's more likely to be a wolf than you.

[jeheinz72]

I'm off for awhile, I'll check back in a few hours to see what's shakin' before my final call around 3 Pacific

[Passacaglia]

Bsak wasn't just because of the Lathum thing (we actually didn't know Lathum was the bodyguard until late that day when he revealed, remember). It was at least partially because of his voting records and arguments about others as well as Lathum.

Pass, let me ask you this. If not you, who is the best person to look at? If you have a case against a better candidate I'll look at it, but as of now I can't see anyone that's more likely to be a wolf than you.

That doesn't seem like how I remember it -- I thought that Lathum revealed, and everyone changed their votes. I remember checking in for just a moment and happened to see that right before I posted -- otherwise, I wasn't on bsak at all, I was busy defending myself against Alan.

As for the best person to look at, I've mentioned The Jackal -- I think his weenieness around deadline yesterday was a newbie mistake, trying not to get caught making the deciding vote. Beyond that, I don't have much -- I think the crew has done a great job, so I'm looking at guys I find to be quiet reflective types that are still in the game -- namely you and Mr. Wednesday.

[Passacaglia]

VOTE PASSACAGLIA

I have a hard time believing Alan would be tilting that hard at someone who wasn't a Cougar.

I still feel like this needs to be contended with, as I think it's absolutely false. Alan couldn't go against the other wolves -- he had to know that was a losing battle. Alan's smart enough to know that the only way to survive was to do all he could to make it villager vs. villager, and hope he can pick off the wolves on wolf vs. wolf nights -- at least until the numbers got more even.

[Passacaglia]

UNVOTE THE JACKAL
VOTE MR. WEDNESDAY

He's been after me for a while, which I think was signalling a tacit agreement between his team and Alan to go after me instead of each other -- unfortunately, other things kept getting in the way.

[Passacaglia]

UNVOTE THE JACKAL
VOTE MR. WEDNESDAY

He's been after me for a while, which I think was signalling a tacit agreement between his team and Alan to go after me instead of each other -- unfortunately, other things kept getting in the way.

In fact, I think he unwittingly initiated this agreement. Looking at the vote counts, I see that Wednesday had his vote on me the day before Alan ever did. I think Alan's vote on me was an appeal to Wednesday that the wolves should go after me instead of each other.

[The Jackal]

As for the best person to look at, I've mentioned The Jackal -- I think his weenieness around deadline yesterday was a newbie mistake, trying not to get caught making the deciding vote.

I'm not a newbie. However, I am a newbie to these forums, and I thought it best to let the majority of players experienced with the two of you to decide. You seem to be the only one who had a problem with it, though I'm sure others weren't too fond of the choice (one being Alan if I remember correctly, and hey, he was a wolf!).

I see you switched your vote to Mr. Wednesday, though.

[The Jackal]

I think pass is probably a wolf, but in case he's not, we need to pay attention to who pushed the voting for him because there are at least three cougars left and they are most likely voting together at this stage, so close to victory.

[Passacaglia]

One observation: Pretty much all the golfing buddies are gone, but none of the temps. A tie would be a bad thing, as a tie between a wolf and a temp would lynch the temp.

Here's a post from the end of the day yesterday by Mr. Wednesday. He states that a tie would be a bad thing, since "pretty much" all the golfing buddies are gone. But..there's still one left. While 2 out of 3 being gone can I guess be called "pretty much" all gone, it strikes me as an attempt to make a tie okay, and possibly get a golfing buddy -- or, to give The Jackal a reason to bow out of the voting.

[path12]

As for the best person to look at, I've mentioned The Jackal -- I think his weenieness around deadline yesterday was a newbie mistake, trying not to get caught making the deciding vote. Beyond that, I don't have much -- I think the crew has done a great job, so I'm looking at guys I find to be quiet reflective types that are still in the game -- namely you and Mr. Wednesday.

Hmmm. Ask who else there is a case for, and you mention the person who is asking you to give him a reason to vote elsewhere. I like the cut of your jib and would very much like to subscribe to your newsletter. ;)

I don't know that it motivates me to go elsewhere....I'll relook at Jackal and Mr W though.

[path12]

I think pass is probably a wolf, but in case he's not, we need to pay attention to who pushed the voting for him because there are at least three cougars left and they are most likely voting together at this stage, so close to victory.

That's an interesting point. If Pass is part of the crew, would anyone try to defend him? I'd think so, but maybe not......especially if they've already got the fish.

[path12]

Dola, meant cougars instead of crew. Stupid no editing.

[Passacaglia]

I'm not a newbie. However, I am a newbie to these forums, and I thought it best to let the majority of players experienced with the two of you to decide. You seem to be the only one who had a problem with it, though I'm sure others weren't too fond of the choice (one being Alan if I remember correctly, and hey, he was a wolf!).

I see you switched your vote to Mr. Wednesday, though.

I'm sorry, but that just seems like a copout to me. I generally dislike theories that involve two or more people being allied, so I'm working to separate the two of you, and see which one seems more wolfish. It's tough, so whoever's behind all this is doing a great job.

[Passacaglia]

Hmmm. Ask who else there is a case for, and you mention the person who is asking you to give him a reason to vote elsewhere. I like the cut of your jib and would very much like to subscribe to your newsletter. ;)

I don't know that it motivates me to go elsewhere....I'll relook at Jackal and Mr W though.

I thought about asking you if you would switch your vote to path, if I promised to do the same, but thought better of it. I'll see what I can dig up on you, too.

[Passacaglia]

Just looking at Day 1. Farrah put a vote on The Jackal, and fink put a vote on Mr. Wednesday. I wonder if these were feelers to see how well they could get attacks going on the other team?

[Passacaglia]

Also, Mr. Wednesday had some weird voting going on at the end of Day 2. If I recall, his vote was made in order to make it a tie, but it's hard to figure, since we don't know at point he started to make the vote. The vote ended 9-5 for fink. Did he make the vote when it was 6 on fink, and 5 on RendeR? That was SEVENTEEN posts before his vote (I'm assuming that Alan misrecorded when his vote came, and it wasn't actually 117 posts before)!

[claphamsa]

Just to get my mind around this... we have

2 Cougars?
1 fish
2 temps?

4 shmucks?

or do we think there are more/ less temps?

[The Jackal]

3 cougars
1 fish/wolf
1 comic
2 temps
2 shmucks

is more like it.. there may not be a comic but if there were four crew there are probably four cougars.. unless the fish became a crew and then we've only got two cougars to worry about.

[claphamsa]

I see only 3 dead crew..... why woud there be more cougaars than crew?

[The Jackal]

alan t was crew it just hasnt been updated yet

and scratch what i said about the fish possibly being crew, i think we wouldve been told if the fish had died, so theres gotta be at least 3 cougars

[Mr. Wednesday]

Also, Mr. Wednesday had some weird voting going on at the end of Day 2. If I recall, his vote was made in order to make it a tie, but it's hard to figure, since we don't know at point he started to make the vote. The vote ended 9-5 for fink. Did he make the vote when it was 6 on fink, and 5 on RendeR? That was SEVENTEEN posts before his vote (I'm assuming that Alan misrecorded when his vote came, and it wasn't actually 117 posts before)!

I tried to make it a tie, because a tie worked strongly in favor of the golf buddies, and at the time I believe we still had both of the most useful roles in play. When I initially tried to flip, RendeR had a lead of one, so I took my vote off of him and threw it on somebody unrelated (although there was some craziness around me unvoting the wrong guy).

When there was a subsequent vote on Fink, I moved right back onto RendeR, and then the late votes on Fink settled things.

Without knowing RendeR's affiliation, nor the tiebreaking strategy if the apparent tie would have been an actual tie, it's impossible to say if my move was correct.

[RendeR]

I resent being labeled a schmuck.

[RendeR]

I am a damn good worker and deserve a better label than Schmuck.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm willing to revisit the question of how Alan was trying to play as the sole remaining Crew wolf.

I'm sure his plan would have involved winning the night kill this past night, but how would he have been expecting to finesse picking off the other two Cougars in the vote without being unmasked as the final Crew? How realistic is it that he would go into a face-off with Passacaglia where Pass wasn't a wolf, but rather a vanilla worker? How would Alan leverage that to push subsequent votes onto Cougars?

Turning it around the other way, I don't see that I can read too much into Passacaglia's anti-Alan agenda either way. On the one hand, just as advocating too hard for a Cougar could make Alan suspicious, the same goes for a Cougar advocating too hard for a Crew. On the other hand, there are still three Cougars out there, and it would make sense for them to adopt a strategy where one of them is a sort of a throw-away trying to get the last Crew lynched and the others try to blend into the crowd to get the win.

[Passacaglia]

I tried to make it a tie, because a tie worked strongly in favor of the golf buddies, and at the time I believe we still had both of the most useful roles in play. When I initially tried to flip, RendeR had a lead of one, so I took my vote off of him and threw it on somebody unrelated (although there was some craziness around me unvoting the wrong guy).

When there was a subsequent vote on Fink, I moved right back onto RendeR, and then the late votes on Fink settled things.

Without knowing RendeR's affiliation, nor the tiebreaking strategy if the apparent tie would have been an actual tie, it's impossible to say if my move was correct.

Actually what you did was...

Vote RendeR (396), which tied him 2-2 with fink

Unvote Schmidty, Vote claphamsa (583) -- Never minding the fact that your vote wasn't on Schmidty in the first place, the tally at this time was 8 for fink, and 5 for RendeR (I included you as one of the 5, since I'm not sure who your vote is actually on at this point), and voting claphamsa does nothing to make it a tie

Unvote claphamsa, Vote RendeR (585) -- So now it's 8-5, because I think either way you interpret this, your vote was meant to be on RendeR. Then after all that is when mau voted to make it 9-5.

It seems to me much more like you were trying to confuse the issue, rather than force a tie.

[Passacaglia]

How would Alan leverage that to push subsequent votes onto Cougars?


I don't think that was his plan. I think that his plan was to stay away from the Cougars, make sure the heat stayed off him, and hope that the village could find the other wolves.

[Passacaglia]

Turning it around the other way, I don't see that I can read too much into Passacaglia's anti-Alan agenda either way.

Remember, though, that it was Alan who came after me first. I didn't have an anti-Alan agenda as much as he had an anti-Pass agenda.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Your implication is fact-challenged.

Post 558: CR has a semi-official count with RendeR leading 7-6, at 10:52 pm.
Post 568: You switch from RendeR to Fink, putting it 7-6 the other way, at 10:55 pm.

My flip vote comes in almost simultaneously with Schmidty's Fink vote at 10:57 pm, his in post 578 and mine in post 583.

Regardless, your claim that it was 8-5 is wrong. It was actually 8-6, and effectively 7-6 at the time I attempted the switch. And I thought it was 6-7 because I had somehow missed your vote. Probably a contributor here was that I was on the phone at the time and slightly distracted.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, that's the implication that I was trying to confuse things.

[Passacaglia]

Your implication is fact-challenged.

Post 558: CR has a semi-official count with RendeR leading 7-6, at 10:52 pm.
Post 568: You switch from RendeR to Fink, putting it 7-6 the other way, at 10:55 pm.

My flip vote comes in almost simultaneously with Schmidty's Fink vote at 10:57 pm, his in post 578 and mine in post 583.

Regardless, your claim that it was 8-5 is wrong. It was actually 8-6, and effectively 7-6 at the time I attempted the switch. And I thought it was 6-7 because I had somehow missed your vote. Probably a contributor here was that I was on the phone at the time and slightly distracted.

You're right that it was 8-6 -- I was just looking at your summary post, and didn't see that mauboy had his vote on RendeR at that time. Sorry about that.

Your vote was a minute after Schmidty's, but there was enough time that four other people were able to post in that time. If you're on the phone, I can understand, but

[Passacaglia]

whoops...don't know what happened there.

...but you can see how it looks confusing to us.

[Mr. Wednesday]

I'm still not sure how I managed to miss your switch, and I'm quite certain that Schmidty's was less than a minute before mine in real-time (my subsequent move back onto RendeR was driven by seeing his vote come up after I did my initial switch, and note that I added a following "tied, right?" query that shows that I had miscounted).

[Passacaglia]

I think we've argued this to death, especially considering it was five days ago. Any thoughts on The Jackal?

[jeheinz72]

Well I'm done for the day, so don't count on me to change. I think Pass is the most logical option for a Cougar right now.

[Passacaglia]

The thing that itches me about The Jackal is that I took heat for my votes for fink on Day 2, and Farrah on Day 3. The Jackal voted the exact same way, but took far less heat -- his name was mentioned passingly, but that was about it. I think that people were more interested in the Pass/mau thing, since mau voted the same as The Jackal and me...just that mau usually did it right around the same time as me, and as a result, The Jackal was widely overlooked -- in a great way for him, since people were content to kill mau on Day 4, then if he turns up good, look at me Day 5, giving him two days for people to forget about him. Then fortuitously for him, we had some eventful days that have put him back under the radar, while I've stayed...uh..above it.

[Passacaglia]

Well I'm done for the day, so don't count on me to change. I think Pass is the most logical option for a Cougar right now.

No problem -- I'm not looking for people to really change their votes. At this point, I'm just giving the duke some options. We're at our last stand here, so it would be a good time to get a cleared villager to help our odds tomorrow. So since you're gone, I hope you're not the duke, or that if you are, you've already put in your order to save me. :)

[Passacaglia]

That goes for Mr. Wednesday, path, and The Jackal, too. Even though I've been heaping accusations at you guys, feel free to save me if you're the duke.

[claphamsa]

HA

[oliegirl]

Ok guys, I'm back and caught up...it's been a LONG day! But we've added a puppy, and 2 kitten to our family - yes, you read that right, and yes, we are insane. Anyway...

I think at this point, the most likely scenario is that Pass and AlanT were both wolves, and Alan's attempt to get Pass voted out was so that there was at least SOME chance that he'd be left standing. I just really don't see the logic behind any other course of action/reasoning he might have had. I've ready everything that Pass has had to say today, and I still don't see what Alan would have had to gain by NOT aggressively going after a CougarWolf. If you want to try to explain it again, I'm willing to read it and take it into consideration, but until then...

VOTE PASSACAGLIA

[Passacaglia]

Ok guys, I'm back and caught up...it's been a LONG day! But we've added a puppy, and 2 kitten to our family - yes, you read that right, and yes, we are insane. Anyway...

I think at this point, the most likely scenario is that Pass and AlanT were both wolves, and Alan's attempt to get Pass voted out was so that there was at least SOME chance that he'd be left standing. I just really don't see the logic behind any other course of action/reasoning he might have had. I've ready everything that Pass has had to say today, and I still don't see what Alan would have had to gain by NOT aggressively going after a CougarWolf. If you want to try to explain it again, I'm willing to read it and take it into consideration, but until then...

VOTE PASSACAGLIA

It's not so much what he has to gain by not going after one of the other wolves, it's what he has to lose by doing it. If I were one of the other wolves, and he had gone after me, my teammates would have all gone after him.

[Chief Rum]

alan t was crew it just hasnt been updated yet

Whoops. It's updated now.

[Chief Rum]

Day 7 Count (as of Post 1369)

Passacaglia (7)-- Mr. Wednesday (1295), Render (1302), claphamsa (1307), path12 (1312), The Jackal (1316), jeheinz (1318), oliegirl (1367)
Mr. Wednesday (1)-- Passacaglia (1333)

Not Voted: Schmidty


Vote count to this point.

[oliegirl]

It's not so much what he has to gain by not going after one of the other wolves, it's what he has to lose by doing it. If I were one of the other wolves, and he had gone after me, my teammates would have all gone after him.

I see where you are coming from, but don't buy it. It was really his only choice as the last member of the crew left standing. It's like fighting 10 enemies with one bullet left in your gun and saying "well, I don't want to shoot someone b/c then all the other bad guys are going to come after me". They are going to come after you anyway, so you may as well go down fighting.

My vote stands.

[Passacaglia]

My vote stands.

Again, I'm not really trying to get people to change their votes -- with three or four wolves out there, I know I don't have a hope of actually getting more votes on someone else today. I'm just giving the duke some options.

[Passacaglia]

I see where you are coming from, but don't buy it. It was really his only choice as the last member of the crew left standing. It's like fighting 10 enemies with one bullet left in your gun and saying "well, I don't want to shoot someone b/c then all the other bad guys are going to come after me". They are going to come after you anyway, so you may as well go down fighting.

My vote stands.

But to reply to what you've said...if what you're saying is true, villagers would have never been voted off at all, because the wolves would have kept voting after each other. If you look at the voting history, you'll see a few examples of wolves going after villagers, but you won't see any examples of wolves going after other wolves.

[oliegirl]

But to reply to what you've said...if what you're saying is true, villagers would have never been voted off at all, because the wolves would have kept voting after each other. If you look at the voting history, you'll see a few examples of wolves going after villagers, but you won't see any examples of wolves going after other wolves.

True, but like someone said earlier, things change day to day...what you just pointed out makes sense for a strategy early on in the game, but not for what Alan faced yesterday as last man standing. Hey, if we are wrong and you are good, I'll be the first to apologize and admit that we screwed up, but I don't think we are.

[Passacaglia]

My mistake -- SnDvls voted for fink on Day 2. But it's not like he pushed hard in the style that Alan pushed for me.

[Chief Rum]

Wow, quiet deadline.

[Alan T]

Wow, quiet deadline.


THats what you get for killing me off.

[Chief Rum]

THats what you get for killing me off.

:p

[Chief Rum]

Deadline

[Passacaglia]

THats what you get for killing me off.

Just think what happens if I get killed off.

[Lathum]

don't forget about me!

[Passacaglia]

don't forget about me!

Yeah...this place will be snoozeville without us.

[Chief Rum]

Day 7 Count (as of Post 1369)

Passacaglia (7)-- Mr. Wednesday (1295), Render (1302), claphamsa (1307), path12 (1312), The Jackal (1316), jeheinz (1318), oliegirl (1367)
Mr. Wednesday (1)-- Passacaglia (1333)

Not Voted: Schmidty


Vote count to this point.

Writeup is done, but thought I would bring this up first. No votes since, so this is the official vote.

[Chief Rum]

After yesterday's close vote, the office seems to prefer to go back to runaway votes--less stress that way.

After a week of haranguing former Crew member Alan around the office, Passacaglia seems set for his own demise. Shortly before sign off, the Boss calls him into the office and closes the door.

The discussion doesn't last. Passacaglia walks to his desk and quietly starts to put his effects in a box.

Passacaglia has been FIRED! And he was a Wolf! A Cougar!

The time for going home comes and goes, but everyone is still in the office. There is one more firing to go.

The Boss seems to be taking his sweet time, though. He makes no move for the phone, nor does he motion for anyone to come into the office. He goes over some paperwork for a few minutes, then he gathers up his coat and shuts the office light off on his way out the door. He's going home!

Did the Cougars not influence the Boss to fire anyone else today? No one knows for sure.

With some confusion, the remaining workers start to shut down for the night.

Just as Mr. Wednesday finishes shutting his computer down, his employment agency adviser shows up. "Oh, Mr. Wednesday," she said in a rush, "I'm so sorry I was running behind, but I had to catch you. I have some grave news..."

She leads him into a side room, where he is told the Boss decided he wasn't up for letting anyone go today personally, so why not let one of his temps go instead?

Mr. Wednesday has been NIGHT-FIRED by the Cougars! He was a Temp!


The next deadline is WED 10 P.M. EST/ 7 P.M. PDT. I will be home after all, so no need to wait for a late deadline.

[Passacaglia]

Yes! I knew Pass was a bad guy!

Good job, village.

[claphamsa]

no shock here..... Pass knew he was dead a while ago, so im gonna use my powers of deduction to see who he was sparing with.... and figure that is the other couger...

[RendeR]

2 Cougars
1 fish/wolf
1 comic
1 temps
2 DAMN FINE INDIVIDUALS



ok so here we sit. If this is the way things are we have a pretty solid voting block. Question is, where to start trusting people at this point?

Our real problem is this is a crucial day. If we blow the firing and lose another good guy and they convert, we're done. If we have a comic I'm beginning to think its time for him or her to reveal, it gives us a starting base for trust. If they reveal I'll go with them *barring the expected counter reveal etc etc etc. Blah.

So whats everyone else think? Who should we put on the vivisection table next?

[Arles]

Jeez, five weeks after I pegged him Pass was finally voted off ;)

[Alan T]

Jeez, five weeks after I pegged him Pass was finally voted off ;)


I tried to help you out there best as I could! :)

[Mr. Wednesday]

Yeah...this place will be snoozeville without us.

And here I'd been trying to keep things active... :(

[path12]

Our real problem is this is a crucial day. If we blow the firing and lose another good guy and they convert, we're done. If we have a comic I'm beginning to think its time for him or her to reveal, it gives us a starting base for trust. If they reveal I'll go with them *barring the expected counter reveal etc etc etc. Blah.

I don't think we want the comic to reveal. If they come out, they can be killed at night since we don't have a bodyguard.

[path12]

The thing that really sucks right now is that my trust list looks like:

Trust -- path
Lean Trust --
No Read -- The Jackal, Mr Wednesday, RendeR, oliegirl, claphamsa, jeheinz, Schmidty
Lean Distrust --
Distrust --

No read might be a little harsh. I have tiny reads, but not enough to do much with. Bear with me while I free associate my thoughts on everyone left.

Schmidty -- hasn't been around for a couple days. either not a cougar because stuff is still happening or his partner is very involved in the game.

The Jackal -- keeping his cards close. One thing I agreed with Pass on was that his non-vote a couple of days ago was pretty odd.

Oliegirl -- seems good but always does. more in and out in the thread, following along more than digging.

Mr W -- was right on Pass. always plays same game, hard to read. would he toss under the bus?

RendeR -- I've suspected you as fish the entire game.

claphamsa -- really has been different this game. was louder as wolf. buddy?

jeheinz -- actually almost forgot he was in the game. that's different too. really no read.

Sigh. Reading that back reminds me how poorly I've been playing lately. :(

[Schmidty]

Sorry everyone. My daughter had a snow day today, and I layed down with her for a nap early afternoon. My wife came home at 4 and didn't wake me up. Apparantly I was really, really tired because I finally woke up at 10 pm. and have to go to work at 11.

Like I told CR via PM. I'll try to get a vote in before I go to sleep tomorrow, and will definitely set my alarm in case I fall asleep in the afternoon.

[Schmidty]

I don't think we want the comic to reveal. If they come out, they can be killed at night since we don't have a bodyguard.

Yeah. That was a weird thing for him to suggest, since it's obvious that without the bodyguard it would be insanely stupid for a big role like that to reveal.

[Chief Rum]

Off to work. ANyone needs to reach me, please email me at [email protected]. I should be there until arounf 3:30 p.m. PDT/

[oliegirl]

Yeah. That was a weird thing for him to suggest, since it's obvious that without the bodyguard it would be insanely stupid for a big role like that to reveal.

I lost connection last night at 10:10, just as I was going in to see results...we had some pretty heavy rain last night and it knocked out cable for a little bit...I just gave up and crashed.

Glad Pass was a wolf, but it sucks that ...I'm heading back to sleep for a little while, but will be going over voting records and such when I get back.

[claphamsa]

I am baffled by the hours some of yalls work.....

[oliegirl]

I am baffled by the hours some of yalls work.....

My going back to sleep has nothing to do with work, just the fact that a 12 week old puppy and 2 8 week old kittens kept me up all night. Why do they always decide 2 am is a good time to play????

[jeheinz72]

Woo! Caught us a Cougar. I love it. Looks like the others hid themselves pretty well though. I'm going to pour back over that manifesto post of past votes here in a bit and see what I can dig up.

[jeheinz72]

Oh even better now that I've read my PM's folks. We've caught ourselves another Cougar!

See, I'm the Fish. I guess no one bothered to actually try me until last night when I was told The Jackal came to see me. He was told that I wouldn't convert since the Crew was taken out so well and I was told he's a COUGAR!


Vote TheJackal

[claphamsa]

well, this could be interesting....

Heinze is pretty good with the fake reveal... but the timeing makes it a bad idea to be fake. we have one couger left. so even if hes faking and we lynch jackall... we ca still get heinze tommorow!

vote jackall
vote nightfall

[claphamsa]

I am curious tho, becasue the rules say nothign about not being able to convert the fish when only one faction is still alive.

[jeheinz72]

I had no idea until I got CR's PM this morning. I was kinda hoping to convert to be honest, I figured it was an easy way to get a win for myself!

[Schmidty]

I'll take a chance and believe jeheinz72:

Vote TheJackal

[path12]

Wait a minute. You're the fish but you weren't converted? That doesn't make any sense.

[jeheinz72]

Wait a minute. You're the fish but you weren't converted? That doesn't make any sense.

It was news to me! I was all set to flip sides thinking surely they'd find me as the group whittled down.

[oliegirl]

VOTE THEJACKAL

No other "real" information to go to off of, seems odd that they couldn't convert Heinz...I didn't see anything from TheJackal, so he either knows he's busted, or he hasn't been able to check in yet. Either way, I don't see that we have a choice.

Oh yeah, also -

VOTE NIGHTFALL

[jeheinz72]

Oh, since I didn't have it

Vote nightfall

[The Jackal]

Well guys, I wanted to post this last night but I'm pretty sick and I had to wait for a rule clarification. Actually, I'm the fish, and heinze was the one coming to look for me. What he said is true, I lasted long enough that when the cougars came to look for me, they'd lost their chance to convert me.

I doubt you're going to believe me at this point, but if you end up lynching me then youll know that heinze is one of the last two cougars. Here's the problem..

There's seven of us left. If you lynch me and let someone else die, it's going to be 3-2 in the workers favor. Then you'll kill heinze and it'll be 2-1, and you'll have one last shot. If you listen to me, and hopefully believe me and realize that heinze jumped on it before I got a chance to post, then we'll lynch heinze, and they'll kill me tonight and it'll be 4-1 workers. It's up to you..

I'm not sure what else I can say to convince you that I'm the real fish. Hell, I even asked a question about the fish mid-way through the game to try and show the wolves I was the fish, because yes, I wanted to be converted. But they never found me until too late. I seriously doubt many of you are going to believe me, I've been quiet this game, and this will look like a cop out by a cougar trying to save myself, but like I said, when I am revealed as the fish and you go down 3-2, at least you'll be setup to have one chance at 2-1.

[The Jackal]

Oh, vote heinze

By the way, I have no idea who his partner is, it only told me which one of the wolves tried to convert me.

[jeheinz72]

Color me unsurprised and uninspired by the defense.




P.S. hope you feel better bro

[The Jackal]

well, this could be interesting....

Heinze is pretty good with the fake reveal... but the timeing makes it a bad idea to be fake. we have one couger left. so even if hes faking and we lynch jackall... we ca still get heinze tommorow!

vote jackall
vote nightfall


He is faking, and if you lynch me you will get him tomorrow, but there are two cougars left, not one. Listen guys, if we lynch heinze today, it's pretty much assured the other cougar will kill me tonight (unless she wants to cause dissention and try to get you to lynch me tomorrow). I don't know what to tell you, I was gonna post last night but wasn't sure if I could reveal or if I had to nail heinze without flat out telling he was a wolf. I woke up at 1:30 because I'm sick, and so, I missed my chance to post first. Believe me, and you'll be up 4-1 tomorrow..

[The Jackal]

Color me unsurprised and uninspired by the defense.




P.S. hope you feel better bro

Thanks, appreciate it. Honestly I don't know how to defend myself other than letting you all kill me and then you'll see I'm the fish. But I'm not going to give up, because 4-1 odds for the department are much better than 3-2/2-1 remaining. Again the only thing I can think of that might convince you is the post I made about the fish mid-way through the game, the only reason I asked it was to try and alert the wolves that I was the fish. Sure, that was kind of being an ass to the department, but hey, I win with the department now and I'm doing what I can to give you guys the best shot at victory.

[path12]

Thanks, appreciate it. Honestly I don't know how to defend myself other than letting you all kill me and then you'll see I'm the fish. But I'm not going to give up, because 4-1 odds for the department are much better than 3-2/2-1 remaining. Again the only thing I can think of that might convince you is the post I made about the fish mid-way through the game, the only reason I asked it was to try and alert the wolves that I was the fish. Sure, that was kind of being an ass to the department, but hey, I win with the department now and I'm doing what I can to give you guys the best shot at victory.

Do you have a post number for that comment?

[path12]

And dola, for Heinz -- did you ever hint at being the fish? Post number?

[The Jackal]

Do you have a post number for that comment?

Ill look for it right now.

[The Jackal]

It was my impression from reading the rules that converting the fish was part of day actions? But that's a good question. If the fish gets converted by one of the WW factions do they have to use a "night kill" on the fish to convert them, or is it automatic?

Right here, post #934.

[The Jackal]

Just like I told you when you tried to convert me heinze, we'll see what happens. Both of us are going to die here pretty soon, it's just a matter of which one goes first. Hope that your partner can win it for ya.

[The Jackal]

Something is definitely up with Jackal. Not sure I can put my finger on it. I actually haven't played with him much (we both ran like all the games at TSW for awhile so we rarely both played, if ever)

I could entertain that thought.

(post #1235)

Took you long enough to figure out that I was the fish. :)

[The Jackal]

Another thing, I semi-suspected Heinz of being a wolf in the first few days, which is why I followed his voting.. for one trying to maybe get him and his wolves to find me as the fish, but also so that it looked like I was a good person to keep around because I kept voting for the crew that the cougars were voting off (I believe heinz and I were the first to vote for fink and his "inactivity"). It seemed to work, as I'm still alive.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Mr W -- was right on Pass. always plays same game, hard to read. would he toss under the bus?
Um, I'm gone. Fired. Night kill by the wolves. Nice to know that even with my allegiance announced by the GM, you still don't trust me. ;)

[jeheinz72]

And dola, for Heinz -- did you ever hint at being the fish? Post number?

Not overtly no. I actually tried to stay away from the topic since I didn't know if I personally was better off converted or not. For a long while I wanted to stay Department since wolves were coming off left and right. Then when it was official yesterday that all of the Crew were gone I figured I could get a quick win by getting converted and I mentioned the Fish then, post # 1321


Plus if I'm doing the math right, there are 9 people left and we know at least 3 Cougars on the prowl. That's with the thought that the Fish hasn't been converted at all. If he has, heck we're one mis-step from losing. So, for me, if it boils down to one vote by me with the entire department life on the line, I feel most confident in the vote for you.

I still didn't want to be too overt about it, for fear if lots of people caught on they'd lynch me so I couldn't get converted to a Cougar. (that wasn't bolded when I posted it of course).

[The Jackal]

Wait a minute. You're the fish but you weren't converted? That doesn't make any sense.

Oh and to answer this question, though I think heinz already did because he was obviously involved in the situation - I was ready to join a wolf faction the entire game, but once the crew was completely eliminated with only one cougar down, it was decided that as the fish I couldn't trust the cougars because of how well they shot down their fellow wolves. Hope that helps.

[jeheinz72]

Another thing, I semi-suspected Heinz of being a wolf in the first few days, which is why I followed his voting.. for one trying to maybe get him and his wolves to find me as the fish, but also so that it looked like I was a good person to keep around because I kept voting for the crew that the cougars were voting off (I believe heinz and I were the first to vote for fink and his "inactivity"). It seemed to work, as I'm still alive.

Ha, I actually thought you were innocent until this. I figured only someone as misguided in their votes as I was must be akin to me in some respect. I figured maybe the Comic.

But now that I look back, knowing what I know now, at all the votes and see you actually were successful on getting the Crew out (you voted Farrah out while I was stuck on Mau and you voted bsak over the weekend I was gone) it makes a lot more sense to me. Of course Chief's PM telling me you're a wolf always helps clear things up!

[The Jackal]

Ha, I actually thought you were innocent until this. I figured only someone as misguided in their votes as I was must be akin to me in some respect. I figured maybe the Comic.

But now that I look back, knowing what I know now, at all the votes and see you actually were successful on getting the Crew out (you voted Farrah out while I was stuck on Mau and you voted bsak over the weekend I was gone) it makes a lot more sense to me. Of course Chief's PM telling me you're a wolf always helps clear things up!

You're a fine opponent heinz, I don't expect to turn up a piece of evidence that will overwhelminglty convince people to vote for you. They are either going to keep believing you, or realize how good you are at lying and listen to me. The only solace I have is that even if they lynch me before lynching you, they'll still have a chance on the last day of taking out your partner.

[jeheinz72]

Oh and to answer this question, though I think heinz already did because he was obviously involved in the situation - I was ready to join a wolf faction the entire game, but once the crew was completely eliminated with only one cougar down, it was decided that as the fish I couldn't trust the cougars because of how well they shot down their fellow wolves. Hope that helps.

I did answer it, good job paraphrasing my post. Convenient for ya that


See, I'm the Fish. I guess no one bothered to actually try me until last night when I was told The Jackal came to see me. He was told that I wouldn't convert since the Crew was taken out so well and I was told he's a COUGAR!

[The Jackal]

I did answer it, good job paraphrasing my post. Convenient for ya that

Meh, we did get the same PM. ;)

[The Jackal]

You know heinz, you never mentioned the role adjustment that -I- received the day before you tried to convert me. You make it sound like the fish just suddenly found out they weren't going to convert when the cougar found them. Well, that wasn't the case at all. I was told beforehand that if a cougar finally found me, I'd know exactly which one it was, and I wouldn't be converted. You wouldn't know that, because you were never the fish, and never had your role adjusted.

[The Jackal]

Here it is guys, if it's just going to be me and heinz bickering back and forth all day I doubt much is going to get accomplished. A few of you have already voted for me and nightfall - what about the others? Does anyone who hasn't voted believe me? If we can just get a few votes on heinz maybe it'll be enough to convince some of those nightfallers that voted before I had a chance to respond that heinz is the one we should be going after here. I'm sure you could win with 2-1 remaining, but wouldn't 4-1 be much more comfortable?

[jeheinz72]

You're a fine opponent heinz, I don't expect to turn up a piece of evidence that will overwhelminglty convince people to vote for you. They are either going to keep believing you, or realize how good you are at lying and listen to me. The only solace I have is that even if they lynch me before lynching you, they'll still have a chance on the last day of taking out your partner.

That's the catch. I also can't lay claim that I have any clue who you're working with. You and your fellow wolf really did a good job of mixing up you're votes. It's like you aren't aligned in the same vote with anyone left alive more than any other (when landslides like pass's lynch are cancelled out). You've voted with path, Render, olie, Schimdty and me each twice and claphamsa once.

But I do see that you voted with SnDvls and Pass both times to get a Crew out (Farrah and Fink), and again with Pass to get Mau and bsak lynched. Of course you voted for Pass like we all did yesterday.

I'd agree though, it all just boils down to if they believe me as they should or if your mimic'ing posts muddle the issue and confuse enough of them to go with you.

[jeheinz72]

You know heinz, you never mentioned the role adjustment that -I- received the day before you tried to convert me. You make it sound like the fish just suddenly found out they weren't going to convert when the cougar found them. Well, that wasn't the case at all. I was told beforehand that if a cougar finally found me, I'd know exactly which one it was, and I wouldn't be converted. You wouldn't know that, because you were never the fish, and never had your role adjusted.

Because that isn't true. You're making up a pre-ordained fact that makes your case look better. You're right, I didn't get such a PM, because such a PM didn't exist.

[The Jackal]

How about the role adjustment? Your turn to mimic. Except in this case, you have nothing to go off of because, whoops! You didn't receive -that- PM.

[The Jackal]

Because that isn't true. You're making up a pre-ordained fact that makes your case look better. You're right, I didn't get such a PM, because such a PM didn't exist.

You think the fish would just be left in the dark like that? No way. How was I supposed to play if suddenly the wolves found me and I found out I wouldn't be switching right there? It was your fault you took so long to find me, now you're outed. Well, we're both outed, but most importantly you are outed. The main thing here is trying to figure out who your partner is. I'm guessing it's one of the people who already voted for me, maybe Schmidty, he's been awful quiet this game (I know he had a recent excuse, but still, being that under the radar is very wolfish).

[jeheinz72]

How about the role adjustment? Your turn to mimic. Except in this case, you have nothing to go off of because, whoops! You didn't receive -that- PM.

Look again.

I'll agree on your main point, look folks 4:1 is much nicer than 2:1. That's what's really at risk here. We lynch Jackal, it's 4:1 and we just have to get one of the next two lynches correct. If you lynch me, we gotta hit on one attempt when it's down to 3 people left.

I don't really think you need to look much farther as far as who to believe than the votes, here are snapshots of just myself and Jackal

Jackal: jeheinz72, fink (Crew), Farrah (Crew), Mau (dept.), bsak (Crew), Pass (Cougar landslide)

jeheinz72: Jackal, fink (Crew), mau (dept), Mau (dept), N/A, Pass (Cougar landslide)

Funny he was 3 for 3 in the lynch attempts on Crew members. I was 1 for 2 (with an N/A because I didn't get on over the weekend).

Who here looks more like a Cougar wolf member to you?

[jeheinz72]

You think the fish would just be left in the dark like that? No way. How was I supposed to play if suddenly the wolves found me and I found out I wouldn't be switching right there? It was your fault you took so long to find me, now you're outed. Well, we're both outed, but most importantly you are outed. The main thing here is trying to figure out who your partner is. I'm guessing it's one of the people who already voted for me, maybe Schmidty, he's been awful quiet this game (I know he had a recent excuse, but still, being that under the radar is very wolfish).

Yeah, I was in the dark like that. I'd say that my not knowing I'd be converted is akin in fairness to you not knowing I'd find out your identity when you finally found me.

Funny though, I was actually thinking one of the people that voted for you is actually your partner too. Ha.

[The Jackal]

Hey, I'm glad I lynched all those wolves. I was a valuable part of the team. It doesn't look great now, but good lord this game has thrown in some twists. Vote off wolves and -you- look bad? Yeesh. I can't argue with the voting record because I always voted for who I thought was a wolf. And most of the time I was correct. There should be some of you who voted similarly to me that realize all of my votes were motivated by believeing people were wolves, but never, ever knowing for certain like heinz always has.

[The Jackal]

You're too good heinz.

unvote heinz
vote jackal

I'll leave my vote on myself unless someone else comes around and starts voting for him. If you want to lynch me to find out for sure that I'm the fish, fine. It hurts you all, but I can't blame you for having trouble deciding which one of us is telling the truth. Heinz has always been, and will always be a magnificent liar.

[jeheinz72]

Hey, I'm glad I lynched all those wolves. I was a valuable part of the team. It doesn't look great now, but good lord this game has thrown in some twists. Vote off wolves and -you- look bad? Yeesh. I can't argue with the voting record because I always voted for who I thought was a wolf. And most of the time I was correct. There should be some of you who voted similarly to me that realize all of my votes were motivated by believeing people were wolves, but never, ever knowing for certain like heinz always has.

So just to sum up, you're theorizing that I knew all the wolves and *chose* to repeatedly not vote for them? I could see that if I made a lot of my votes late in a Day, but I leave each day like 5 hours before the deadline.

If I was a Cougar, and Crew members were in contention to get lynched wouldn't I be leaving my votes on Crew members and pleading ignorance? Why, if I was a Cougar, would I just shoo-away opportunities to take out the other team?

That would make no sense from a game theory standpoint.

[The Jackal]

So just to sum up, you're theorizing that I knew all the wolves and *chose* to repeatedly not vote for them? I could see that if I made a lot of my votes late in a Day, but I leave each day like 5 hours before the deadline.

If I was a Cougar, and Crew members were in contention to get lynched wouldn't I be leaving my votes on Crew members and pleading ignorance? Why, if I was a Cougar, would I just shoo-away opportunities to take out the other team?

That would make no sense from a game theory standpoint.

You voted off two crew (fink and farrah) on consecutive days, just like I did. As far as the other wolves went, if they were going to be lynched anyway, why would you need to add your vote? Gives you a perfectly good analysis right here about how you didn't vote for wolves. If I was a wolf, I wouldn't have voted for an opposite member every day. Looks terrible by the end of the game.

[The Jackal]

Who did heinz vote for the day deacon got lynched?

[The Jackal]

Who did heinz vote for the day deacon got lynched?

I just found it. He voted for deacon. Why? Because pass was his fellow cougar. I didn't vote for anyone because I didn't know who the wolf was. Heinz helped save Pass' ass for another day.

[jeheinz72]

You voted off two crew (fink and farrah) on consecutive days, just like I did. As far as the other wolves went, if they were going to be lynched anyway, why would you need to add your vote? Gives you a perfectly good analysis right here about how you didn't vote for wolves. If I was a wolf, I wouldn't have voted for an opposite member every day. Looks terrible by the end of the game.

No I didn't. I didn't vote for Farrah. My vote was on Mau that day (3, I believe).

[jeheinz72]

I just found it. He voted for deacon. Why? Because pass was his fellow cougar. I didn't vote for anyone because I didn't know who the wolf was. Heinz helped save Pass' ass for another day.

You're right, I was missing a day in my notes there. I did vote NTN. And conversely to your point that's no different than the day I cast no vote and you voted a Crew member out.

I also voted for NTN because I had missed the whole weekends events of Alan and Pass's tete' a tete and had no idea who to trust there (with good reason now as we see both were opposing wolves). Re-reading the posts I was hardly the only one who didn't know how to handle that debate.

One could surmise that your lack of a vote isn't that extraordinary since NTN got lynched anyhow and Pass didn't need you to vote to save him.

[The Jackal]

No I didn't. I didn't vote for Farrah. My vote was on Mau that day (3, I believe).

My fault, you are right, you didn't vote for Farrah. Kind of supports my other point about how as a wolf you wouldn't want your name on the list of people voting for her because it would lead a trail to you at the end of the game. She was going to go down either way, with your vote on Mau it looks like you didn't know she was a wolf, you sneaky bastard.

[jeheinz72]

...or the more Occam's Razor-y thought that I had no idea that she was a wolf at all...heck, even as the Fish that I am I'd rather have voted for her than the innocent Mau.

[The Jackal]

...or the more Occam's Razor-y thought that I had no idea that she was a wolf at all...heck, even as the Fish that I am I'd rather have voted for her than the innocent Mau.

Well, you knew Mau was innocent the whole time, so it was convenient that he came out with that reveal and everyone decided he had to be bad. Leaving your vote on Mau that day was pretty smart, because voting out two crew in a row would've looked bad like it does for me. I hate that voting out wolves successfully all game makes me look bad, but shoot, that's the way this game goes.

[path12]

Here it is guys, if it's just going to be me and heinz bickering back and forth all day I doubt much is going to get accomplished. A few of you have already voted for me and nightfall - what about the others? Does anyone who hasn't voted believe me? If we can just get a few votes on heinz maybe it'll be enough to convince some of those nightfallers that voted before I had a chance to respond that heinz is the one we should be going after here. I'm sure you could win with 2-1 remaining, but wouldn't 4-1 be much more comfortable?

I haven't decided yet, so you guys going back and forth is fine with me for now. I'm trying to catch up on something at work so it's gonna be a little bit before I can put a good focus on trying to see which of you is lying.

The good thing either way is that from what you both say the fish was not converted (which still sounds weird but I have no reason to doubt that), so there are likely just 2 wolves left, and we know that one of them is one of the two of you. So we can get down to one wolf no matter what in the next couple days. A wrong guess today puts more pressure on the next pick to make it 2-1, but I'm OK with that as long as I know we're just down to one.

[claphamsa]

WE shoud pay for drama this good! we got one point and then it is refuted! great stuff guys!!!! keep it up!

[path12]

Um, I'm gone. Fired. Night kill by the wolves. Nice to know that even with my allegiance announced by the GM, you still don't trust me. ;)

In my defense, it was off the top of my head. Plus I was a little high.

FWIW, I totally trust you now!

[The Jackal]

Well, I'm up for answering any questions. I think we've pretty much exhausted the tidbits of information we could call each other out on, but if he finds something else I'll be ready for it. Everything we've called each other out on we've defended in turn. I was going to post my reveal last night but I needed to make sure I could, didn't want to ruin the game for everyone.

[The Jackal]

In my defense, it was off the top of my head. Plus I was a little high.

FWIW, I totally trust you now!

I like your style. Maybe I should get a little high and then the correct defense will come to me. ;)

[jeheinz72]

Well, you knew Mau was innocent the whole time, so it was convenient that he came out with that reveal and everyone decided he had to be bad. Leaving your vote on Mau that day was pretty smart, because voting out two crew in a row would've looked bad like it does for me. I hate that voting out wolves successfully all game makes me look bad, but shoot, that's the way this game goes.

Wait, so now I voted for Mau with the thought that he'd fubar-up the next day? I like it, in addition to being a magnificient liar I'm apparently now omniscient and can see the future...

...if only either of those was actually the case.

[The Jackal]

Wait, so now I voted for Mau with the thought that he'd fubar-up the next day? I like it, in addition to being a magnificient liar I'm apparently now omniscient and can see the future...

...if only either of those was actually the case.

No, I never said you knew he was going to mess up. I'm just saying, it looked good for you that you'd voted for Mau and then he made that snafu, and everyone bandwagoned. Instead of voting for farrah when you knew she was a wolf and would probably get the landslide, you voted for an innocent who had everyone turned against him on the next day - so voting records for him were kind of irrelevant.

[claphamsa]

comeon guys! ur losing steam!!!!

[The Jackal]

comeon guys! ur losing steam!!!!

I was on the phone for an hour, what's your excuse John? ;)

[jeheinz72]

I was on the phone for an hour, what's your excuse John? ;)

Placing a nice $6K order at work ;)

[claphamsa]

6K? I just wrote a PO for 385 Mil!!! Oh yeah!

[jeheinz72]

No, I never said you knew he was going to mess up. I'm just saying, it looked good for you that you'd voted for Mau and then he made that snafu, and everyone bandwagoned. Instead of voting for farrah when you knew she was a wolf and would probably get the landslide, you voted for an innocent who had everyone turned against him on the next day - so voting records for him were kind of irrelevant.

Not really, when you put it in the context that I'm not a wolf and have/had no idea whether he was a wolf.

I mean yeah, to cherry pick and say that *if I was a wolf* it worked out well, is all fine and good, but that's the irrelevant thing in this point of discussion, since it's not the case.

What's relevant is I'm the fish and had no idea at the time of my vote as to the allegences of either mau or farrah, I voted how I voted.

[jeheinz72]

6K? I just wrote a PO for 385 Mil!!! Oh yeah!

Yeah my customers don't quite have the military budgets you get to deal with. Mine is a winery on the central coast of California. I think you have a bit more spending power!

[claphamsa]

I find Jackalls arguments very enlightening. And here we come up with the conundrum.. do we belive the reveler or the counter revealer.... I tend to think the reveler is more believable, but... Ive seen lots of times that a wolf has faked, and not gotten caught (or at least lasted a round or 2). Im kinda in the lynch em both and well pick from the last 3 of us...

That being said I have not totally written off the possibility that they are both cougars, and when we kill jackall heinze will be like see I was right!

Im ready for a margarita!

[The Jackal]

The most important thing for the rest of the department right now is figuring out who the other cougar is. You know one of us is a cougar and one is a fish. You're going to find out which is which at 10, no matter where the vote falls. The prize I get for telling the truth will be death, and I promise I'll say I told you so when I die. :) As far as my life is concerned.. I gotta trust clap on this one maybe, you remember how well he did it that one game with Asa when he revealed as the town spy before Asa did - and in this scenario he fake revealed first again, except this time it was because of a mistake on my part, not because I wanted to delay revealing (for whatever silly reason he had).

[jeheinz72]

Wow people are actually buying the crap he's sellin'??!?!

I swear, I must just be terrible at these reveal/counter-reveal situations. No one believed me last game either (and fat lot of good that did us...)

[The Jackal]

There's still five and a half hours left but it doesn't look like I'm convincing anyone. Maybe some people haven't checked yet, but oh well. His fake reveal bought them a 2-1 advantage instead of 4-1, and it was well played.

[The Jackal]

Wow people are actually buying the crap he's sellin'??!?!

I swear, I must just be terrible at these reveal/counter-reveal situations. No one believed me last game either (and fat lot of good that did us...)

That's the point.. you aren't terrible. You're really, really good.

[jeheinz72]

The most important thing for the rest of the department right now is figuring out who the other cougar is. You know one of us is a cougar and one is a fish. You're going to find out which is which at 10, no matter where the vote falls. The prize I get for telling the truth will be death, and I promise I'll say I told you so when I die. :) As far as my life is concerned.. I gotta trust clap on this one maybe, you remember how well he did it that one game with Asa when he revealed as the town spy before Asa did - and in this scenario he fake revealed first again, except this time it was because of a mistake on my part, not because I wanted to delay revealing (for whatever silly reason he had).

Yeah but then it's a situation of damned-if-I-do, damned-if-I-don't. In the last game here I was the Seer and someone fake revealed as the Seer before I got online and everyone believed them and it cost us a Major victory.

Damn straight I wasn't letting that happen here again in back-to-back games where someone jumps the gun on me with false information. Let's not forget, we got the same PM, so I knew you were aware that I was made privy to the fact you were a Cougar.

[The Jackal]

Yep, yep, it's whoever you believe. And generally that lies with the first person that revealed, so whoever manages to get it out first generally wins, even if they are lying. There has to be someone left that has suspected heinz over me. That's all it really takes, listen to your gut. I'm the fish.

[jeheinz72]

And an FYI to those that may pop in and not post. I'm Audi9000 in about an hour and a half, so if you have any questions, now is the time.

[The Jackal]

And maybe to show you that I'm telling the truth, I won't try and bring up any new information while heinz is offline. Anything I can think of I'll get out now, so he has a chance to respond. I'll answer questions all night if you have them, but no new posts. It really is up to your guts. Did he fake reveal or not? Do his posts sound like the genuine fish? Up to you guys.

[claphamsa]

Yeah my customers don't quite have the military budgets you get to deal with. Mine is a winery on the central coast of California. I think you have a bit more spending power!

not military.... WORSE!!!

[The Jackal]

One thing I do now, even if I am lynched here today, I've voted off four wolves, and well, that's pretty damn good for a department worker. I bet the boss might give me some nice severance pay.

[The Jackal]

now = know

[claphamsa]

And maybe to show you that I'm telling the truth, I won't try and bring up any new information while heinz is offline. Anything I can think of I'll get out now, so he has a chance to respond. I'll answer questions all night if you have them, but no new posts. It really is up to your guts. Did he fake reveal or not? Do his posts sound like the genuine fish? Up to you guys.
why would you not bring up more info while hes not online? i mean its about winning!


Any ideas who the other old lady is?

[jeheinz72]

And maybe to show you that I'm telling the truth, I won't try and bring up any new information while heinz is offline. Anything I can think of I'll get out now, so he has a chance to respond. I'll answer questions all night if you have them, but no new posts. It really is up to your guts. Did he fake reveal or not? Do his posts sound like the genuine fish? Up to you guys.

Well that's no fun, you wolves are supposed to try every underhanded trick in the book.

[The Jackal]

why would you not bring up more info while hes not online? i mean its about winning!


Any ideas who the other old lady is?

I know it's about winning, but it would be just the thing to do to try and weasel some new information in when I know he can't respond. That'd be wolfish, desperate. I'm not desperate. By them finding me, we're going to nail a wolf, even if it's after killing me. That's much better odds than if we'd entered this day guessing randomly. We still wouldn't know who 2 of them are, now we know we're getting one. And as for the other person, like I said, it's likely someone who's voted for me already, possibly Schmidty because he's been relatively quiet (even though he had a recent excuse) and that's wolfish to stay under the radar. I think it's going to be hard to go off posting records because in this game, sometimes it's better to vote off a wolf and sometimes its better to vote off a villager, so that makes it really hard to judge votes. It could be you clapper, asking me questions to make it seem like you aren't his partner! But I don't really think it's you. I honestly have no idea, first gut feeling was schmidty, and my gut led me to fink, farrah, and bsak.

[The Jackal]

Heinz, pass, SnD, and one other person. That person is either going to win the game two days from now, or they'll get voted off. Should make for an exciting finish.

[jeheinz72]

I have to say Jackal, that if I didn't know you were full of it, this whole hat-in-your-hands, let's-focus-on-the-2nd-wolf tone might actually work on me.

[The Jackal]

I have to say Jackal, that if I didn't know you were full of it, this whole hat-in-your-hands, let's-focus-on-the-2nd-wolf tone might actually work on me.

That's the second or third time you've countered with just "you're a wolf, so that doesn't work". Well, maybe it will work on one person. All we need is one person to see you are lying and then maybe some others can look past the fake reveal and realize you're playing your role perfectly, knowing you will die by tomorrow, and giving your partner a much better chance of winning. It sucks for you that you found me, you haven't been on the radar since the first day, and now you're dead. You better just hope your partner hasnt been the focus of attention.

[The Jackal]

So maybe someone should make a list of everyone who heinz has voted for that is still alive, and anyone that's voted for heinz that is still alive. If you want to wait for me to do it, it won't be until a little later.

[path12]

Here it is guys, if it's just going to be me and heinz bickering back and forth all day I doubt much is going to get accomplished. A few of you have already voted for me and nightfall - what about the others? Does anyone who hasn't voted believe me? If we can just get a few votes on heinz maybe it'll be enough to convince some of those nightfallers that voted before I had a chance to respond that heinz is the one we should be going after here. I'm sure you could win with 2-1 remaining, but wouldn't 4-1 be much more comfortable?


I thought nightfall votes couldn't be changed. Clarification from Chief??

[The Jackal]

I thought nightfall votes couldn't be changed. Clarification from Chief??

If that's true, way to vote nightfall before I even had a chance to wake up, guys. :P

[path12]

I'm guessing it's one of the people who already voted for me, maybe Schmidty, he's been awful quiet this game (I know he had a recent excuse, but still, being that under the radar is very wolfish).

That's Schmidty's game. He's always quiet.

[The Jackal]

That's Schmidty's game. He's always quiet.

Then that might take some suspicion off him. Dont know, won't be up to me.

[path12]

You're too good heinz.

unvote heinz
vote jackal

I'll leave my vote on myself unless someone else comes around and starts voting for him. If you want to lynch me to find out for sure that I'm the fish, fine. It hurts you all, but I can't blame you for having trouble deciding which one of us is telling the truth. Heinz has always been, and will always be a magnificent liar.

Voting for yourself always makes me want to vote for you.

[path12]

Jackal: jeheinz72, fink (Crew), Farrah (Crew), Mau (dept.), bsak (Crew), Pass (Cougar landslide)



The Jackal, why again didn't you put a vote in the other day? If you were the fish, why hold back?

[The Jackal]

The Jackal, why again didn't you put a vote in the other day? If you were the fish, why hold back?

The reason I stated back then is the reason I did that. I didn't feel strongly enough about either of them being wolves to cast the vote that made a tie, in case one was a temp. Instead I let the majority of people who had already voted and who knew their playing styles make the decision. I don't do that often, but I felt it would be in the best interest of the town. Obviously I made a mistake, as pass was a cougar, but that's really the reason I did it. I mean, why would a wolf do something so blatant.

[jeheinz72]

That's the second or third time you've countered with just "you're a wolf, so that doesn't work". Well, maybe it will work on one person. All we need is one person to see you are lying and then maybe some others can look past the fake reveal and realize you're playing your role perfectly, knowing you will die by tomorrow, and giving your partner a much better chance of winning. It sucks for you that you found me, you haven't been on the radar since the first day, and now you're dead. You better just hope your partner hasnt been the focus of attention.

Well what do you expect me to say?

I got a PM today that says your a wolf. The votes point to you being a wolf. Your argument consists of "he's lying" and what else? My voting points to being a department worker, which is what I am as the Fish.

[The Jackal]

Well what do you expect me to say?

I got a PM today that says your a wolf. The votes point to you being a wolf. Your argument consists of "he's lying" and what else? My voting points to being a department worker, which is what I am as the Fish.

And I say my voting points to being in the department. I didn't know Farrah or pass were wolves, you knew both of them were, and you didn't vote for either of them for a reason. (I know everyone voted pass the next day, that's not the point)

[path12]

That being said I have not totally written off the possibility that they are both cougars, and when we kill jackall heinze will be like see I was right!



That's interesting. I was wondering that too. So if we lynch one and they come up Cougar we'd assume the other was clean.

[path12]

That's interesting. I was wondering that too. So if we lynch one and they come up Cougar we'd assume the other was clean.


But thinking that over for another 10 seconds reminds me that unless someone else comes out and claims to be the fish, one of them pretty much has to be.

[The Jackal]

That's interesting. I was wondering that too. So if we lynch one and they come up Cougar we'd assume the other was clean.

If you're worried about that then vote for me, because I'm the fish.

[jeheinz72]

And I say my voting points to being in the department. I didn't know Farrah or pass were wolves, you knew both of them were, and you didn't vote for either of them for a reason. (I know everyone voted pass the next day, that's not the point)

Not really. Your votes point to a Cougar who first decimated the Crew and then B turned on Pass when there was no alternative.

I didn't vote for Farrah because I didn't know she was a wolf. IIRC the case against her was what, a post from Cronin the seer and ....? Anything?

Did I suspect Pass, sure, but I couldn't make heads or tails of him and Alan going back and forth. The vote for Pass against NTN seemed like a toss-up to me. Pass yesterday of course wasn't.

[The Jackal]

But thinking that over for another 10 seconds reminds me that unless someone else comes out and claims to be the fish, one of them pretty much has to be.

oh right, and there's that.

[The Jackal]

Not really. Your votes point to a Cougar who first decimated the Crew and then B turned on Pass when there was no alternative.

I didn't vote for Farrah because I didn't know she was a wolf. IIRC the case against her was what, a post from Cronin the seer and ....? Anything?

Did I suspect Pass, sure, but I couldn't make heads or tails of him and Alan going back and forth. The vote for Pass against NTN seemed like a toss-up to me. Pass yesterday of course wasn't.

Yes, those are your excuses, but you didn't vote for them because you knew exactly who they were. It just comes back to which one of us they believe, and it seems your fake reveal and the worst case situation of a 2-1 is enough for people right now - plus if nightfall votes can't be changed then aren't there already 4 votes on me (aside from mine)?

[path12]

Then that might take some suspicion off him. Dont know, won't be up to me.


Nah, it doesn't take suspicion off him. But he's used to that.

[path12]

The reason I stated back then is the reason I did that. I didn't feel strongly enough about either of them being wolves to cast the vote that made a tie, in case one was a temp. Instead I let the majority of people who had already voted and who knew their playing styles make the decision. I don't do that often, but I felt it would be in the best interest of the town. Obviously I made a mistake, as pass was a cougar, but that's really the reason I did it. I mean, why would a wolf do something so blatant.

That's what I wondered at the time. But if you were Cougar you would have been in a tough spot there, kill your partner or duck away from him at the end of the day. I could see why a no-vote might help there.

I'm not trying to pick on you here, but even though I haven't played a ton of games with Heinz I do have some inkling of his style, where I don't have a clue about yours....

[jeheinz72]

Yes, those are your excuses, but you didn't vote for them because you knew exactly who they were. It just comes back to which one of us they believe, and it seems your fake reveal and the worst case situation of a 2-1 is enough for people right now - plus if nightfall votes can't be changed then aren't there already 4 votes on me (aside from mine)?

But you're forgetting that fact that

A) As a Cougar, I'd want to lynch those crew members if given the chance

B) My schedule is such that I can't go back and switch even kinda-late in the Day. My vote is cast by 3 and it doesn't change. Each day I've posted shortly before leaving work, "cementing" my vote for where it is.

C) So then reasoning would be that if I was a Cougar, I'd if anything get an early vote in on the Crew member that even has a shot at going down. I think in at least one of those instances, if memory serves, I was somewhat surprised to see that person lynched at all, much less that they were a wolf (I think that was Farrah's day)

[The Jackal]

That's what I wondered at the time. But if you were Cougar you would have been in a tough spot there, kill your partner or duck away from him at the end of the day. I could see why a no-vote might help there.

I'm not trying to pick on you here, but even though I haven't played a ton of games with Heinz I do have some inkling of his style, where I don't have a clue about yours....

Yes but if I was a cougar I think it would've been ridiculously stupid to not vote at all, as it clearly draws more attention to you, as it has to me.

[oliegirl]

Well, I'm up for answering any questions. I think we've pretty much exhausted the tidbits of information we could call each other out on, but if he finds something else I'll be ready for it. Everything we've called each other out on we've defended in turn. I was going to post my reveal last night but I needed to make sure I could, didn't want to ruin the game for everyone.

This confuses me...there have been a number of reveals in this game, both false and true, and there have been no ramifications. Why were you concerned that YOUR reveal would be different? Reveals are a part of the game, if there are going to be restrictions against a reveal, it would be laid out either in the rules or stated in your PM at the beginning of the game.

[The Jackal]

This confuses me...there have been a number of reveals in this game, both false and true, and there have been no ramifications. Why were you concerned that YOUR reveal would be different? Reveals are a part of the game, if there are going to be restrictions against a reveal, it would be laid out either in the rules or stated in your PM at the beginning of the game.

Right, I wasn't sure because of my role, because the PM was very in character and it wasn't made clear whether or not it was supposed to be public information. Since it was involved with the wolves, and since the opposing factions couldn't tell who each other were, I needed to make sure I didn't need to get heinz caught without literally saying i knew he was a wolf. I hope that makes sense.

[jeheinz72]

He had to put that in there to give a valid reason for me beating him to the punch. Basically, we both got the same info in the PM, my guess he is waited to see how overt I was with nailing him to the wall, when it became clear I was extremely overt in handing his wolfiness over, he had to come up with some reason (better sounding than I was just first online) as to why I was claiming what I am.