Werewolf LXXXVIII: Game Thread

[PurdueBrad]

If I recall correctly, didn't you put your vote on him because you incorrectly believed that he had only done one action?

That's my secondary reason, I have a very different reason.

[DaddyTorgo]

Ok, I disagree but thats par for the course. I've said my piece. I can't lay out my reasons any better than I have.

I am still wondering about DT's comments. If his ability IS to know the truth of a statement then I'm back to wondering who telle actually is. I honestly don't believe she's a demon, it'd be utter suicide to make this reveal. That leaves me with another angel or perhaps the cultist.

Guess we'll find out.

that is my ability Baron RendeR.

[RealDeal]

Brad,

My point of view on your vote for Alan T. is that its a wasted vote. No matter who you believe, everyone agrees that either me or telle is a wolf, so why flush two votes down the toilet there. I've made about 30 posts giving the reasons why people should vote for Telle, but at a minimum you should switch your vote to the meaningful race and put yourself on record.

[Telle]

That's my secondary reason, I have a very different reason.

Because he's someone that worked on walls and didn't do so twice? Or are you saying you have a reason that you haven't previously stated?

[Passacaglia]

Eh? oh so now I'm lying about who I am too? I have corroboration for who I am, why would I lie about this situation? I have nothing to gain?

I dunno about that. It just doesn't seem like you really believe he's lying -- I mean, you actually called him Michah.

[RendeR]

Brad,

My point of view on your vote for Alan T. is that its a wasted vote. No matter who you believe, everyone agrees that either me or telle is a wolf, so why flush two votes down the toilet there. I've made about 30 posts giving the reasons why people should vote for Telle, but at a minimum you should switch your vote to the meaningful race and put yourself on record.


Stop avoiding the question. This isn't about what you want done to telle, answer his question. Do you support his voting for Alan T.

[Passacaglia]

Because I think his actions are more consistent.
- he did immediately question the reveal
- DT has indicated that Telle lied in her reveal
- RD has expressed more willingness to talk about his role, which someone should be willing to do (within reason) to prove their case on a head-to-head

This is pretty much my opinion, FWIW (which is nothing, since I'm doing work). Also, I questioned Telle's reveal last night too, so in my mind, that just gives me more reason personally.

[RendeR]

I dunno about that. It just doesn't seem like you really believe he's lying -- I mean, you actually called him Michah.


*nods* I did, because I had just read through his really long post where he uses the name multiple times. I just got flip floopped while posting my response. When i re-read it after posting I noticed it. I can't edit a post so I updated the next one. notice its time stamped immediately after.

[Alan T]

That's my secondary reason, I have a very different reason.


I am still catching up. I was hoping you wern't going to go down this path as I was hoping to try to figure out a way to try to "converse" with you somehow in code within this thread in a way to develop trust with you. Unfortunately you aren't giving me enough time to catch up fully on this thread.

I'll pause here to try to give my initial thoughts right now. I caught your hint, I don't think you are bad. I'll also say that as of now, I will be voting for Telle. Her reasons seem to me to be far flimsier than Real Deal's when you consider the big picture. Her reveal came when her neck was on the line, on a day one near the end. Her teammates likely aren't going to save her and risk outing themselves on day one, so she did the one thing she could to try to save herself and it worked. Every time we have a reveal like that in past games I have stated that I think it is worth keeping them around and letting the bad guys take care of them unless we find out they lied. In this case we have two other people who don't seem to be on a team together (in DaddyTorgo and RealDeal) that stated she has lied.

RealDeal's reveal on the other hand came when he was under no pressure, it did nothing but put a huge bullseye on him in several different fronts. It seemed far less reward for the risk then what Telle's move the previous day had.

Now if I was to consider Real Deal is lying, it doesn't really tell me much about anyone else other than Telle right now. It doesn't really tell me much about Render as he already has someone else vouching that he is human. If Telle is lying, it tells me far more about other people in the game and gives me many more tracks to lead from.

I then started going back after Telle's reveal and looked to see what I could figure out from people's reactions... I will say this pretty point blank...

If Telle is bad, I would love to see if there was something "Supernatural" about Passacaglia.

Anyhows, trying to catch up further before I vote.

[RealDeal]

Stop avoiding the question. This isn't about what you want done to telle, answer his question. Do you support his voting for Alan T.

No I dont support it. The only vote I support is for Telle.

[RendeR]

I tihnk yer both missing PB's point.

Removing the two of you from contention right now, Do you think Alan T is a good vote? Should we lynch him?

[DaddyTorgo]

just to make sure I get this in

WORK ON ARTWORK (2nd action)

[Alan T]

I tihnk yer both missing PB's point.

Removing the two of you from contention right now, Do you think Alan T is a good vote? Should we lynch him?


I don't think voting for me is a helpful vote for the village if my thought counts any here :)

[Telle]

I'm really confused. What has Alan done that warrants him being lynched moreso than the rest?

[RendeR]

I don't think voting for me is a helpful vote for the village if my thought counts any here :)


it doesn't but thanks for playing ;) LOL

[RendeR]

Seeds of doubt. Alan, you're comments interest me. Keep talking.

[Passacaglia]

If Telle is bad, I would love to see if there was something "Supernatural" about Passacaglia.

Why only if Telle is bad?

[RealDeal]

You guys are unbelievable. I'm an angel and you know what my ability is (I'm not a seer or a scanner). The only info I know is who the other angels are. So I know whether or not Alan or anyone else is or is not an angel. If they aren't then I don't have a clue if its a good vote or not (unless that person falsely claims to be an angel, like Telle).

If they are, why would I say something that is essentially a reveal?

[RendeR]

You guys are unbelievable. I'm an angel and you know what my ability is (I'm not a seer or a scanner). The only info I know is who the other angels are. So I know whether or not Alan or anyone else is or is not an angel. If they aren't then I don't have a clue if its a good vote or not (unless that person falsely claims to be an angel, like Telle).

If they are, why would I say something that is essentially a reveal?


because you life hangs upon that answer?

[Alan T]

Seeds of doubt. Alan, you're comments interest me. Keep talking.

Well, the problem here is generally in WW games you and I see the same event from completely opposite sides. This is usually true even when we are on the same team. The same thing appears at face value to be the case here as well. I think based on what i know of day one, it feels fairly likely to me that you wouldn't have voted for Hannibal the way you did on day one if you were bad. I also think the two people who faked work on the walls are ironically Telle and RealDeal last night, which means you likely did not do that either. You also have Jonathan vouching for you.

So on face value, you have much more going for you in my eyes than almost anyone else in the game. Yet you are looking at today's events from the completely opposite angle that I am. I don't think I really buy almost any of what you are buying. Almost every case I see from the opposite perspective and right now am playing it out in my head on who is aligned with whom.

I know it sounds weird, but I often have weird thoughts in these games (sometimes they are right, sometimes they are not), but even though Passacaglia has been one of the strongest voices against Telle, I am wondering if they are on the same team. I would love if someone out there has the ability to see the "supernatural" if they might be interested to look at Passacaglia tonight. My third candidate I think I'll leave to myself as it isn't even 50% sure yet and I'd rather not lead anyone too far in a wrong direction for no reason just yet.

[KWhit]

RealDeal comes across as MUCH more believable than Telle right now.

Vote Telle
Work on Carpentry

[RealDeal]

I'm not going to reveal other angels to survive, and honestly, no true villager would ask me to do that.

[DaddyTorgo]

need to run to the store before it closes for dad's prescription. hope to be back just before lynch

[RendeR]

*nods* thats pretty much exactly how I expected you to respond. Glad to know I'm not totally off my rocker.

good or Ill, I'll stick to what my guts telling me right now.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

At the time, I thought too many people would work on the walls and that there was going to be an overage. It looked more likely that the artwork would not be completed that day.

This makes no sense to me. And now we find out that you don't have to fake a work to do your night action? You faked it for spiritual health? Are you allowed to explain spiritual health to us?

And would you also care to explain why finishing the artwork on day one is more important than the walls?

[hoopsguy]

I believe that KWhit has tied it up. Does anyone have a good spreadsheet with who has what actions remaining?

[PurdueBrad]

unvote Alan T
unvote Alan T

vote Telle
vote Telle

[RendeR]

Right now my issue is timing. Telle's reveal came out exactly when and why I'd expect such a thing. RD's came after he had time to think it over real well.

I'm a suspicious man.

[RendeR]

Tlle's up 1 now, if I'm adding correctly?

[PurdueBrad]

Let's see what happens with this I guess. I've got a couple connections from whatever sides there may be shaping up so we'll see how this goes. Not 100% confident in my switch but I've made my point if this goes bad and if I die.

[RealDeal]

*nods* thats pretty much exactly how I expected you to respond. Glad to know I'm not totally off my rocker.

good or Ill, I'll stick to what my guts telling me right now.

After this lynch is over, please explain to me exactly what answer you were possibly looking for that was going to satisfy you.

[Telle]

Tlle's up 1 now, if I'm adding correctly?

Up 2.

[Tyrith]

Alright, I'm here. Not that I can do anything.

[Tyrith]

Right now my issue is timing. Telle's reveal came out exactly when and why I'd expect such a thing. RD's came after he had time to think it over real well.

I'm a suspicious man.

The fact that it came out right when you would expect it to doesn't make it seem like more a reflex, whatever I have to do to not die move?

[Telle]

Let's see what happens with this I guess. I've got a couple connections from whatever sides there may be shaping up so we'll see how this goes. Not 100% confident in my switch but I've made my point if this goes bad and if I die.

What point have you made? I see no more reason to believe Alan T is a wolf than most of the other players.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

If he can answer my questions to my satisfaction I'll switch my vote, but for now

VOTE REALDEAL

[Jonathan Ezarik]

We currently have three on Artwork, correct?

[Alan T]

Going to go ahead and get my vote in. I'll be interested to see if anyone really wants to go out of their way to try to save someone that they supposedly do not know much about.

Vote Telle
Vote Telle

[Telle]

Actions left as of 536:

Chief Rum(2), Alan T(2), Jonathan(1), RendeR(1)

[RendeR]

The fact that it came out right when you would expect it to doesn't make it seem like more a reflex, whatever I have to do to not die move?


Yes and along with that an Emphatic..NO....heh.

I'm also and ambiguity wrapped up in confusion.

[RealDeal]

I do not have to fake work to protect a portion of the cathedral.

I do have to fake work to build spiritual health, which is something all of us angels have to do collectively both for angel-specific goals and because it provides bonuses to help the villagers.

[Telle]

Interesting that a lot of the votes on me are double votes.

[RendeR]

HRm. up 3, nothing I can do to change that. I really don't like RD's play here, its chewing at me. but a number of things have come up that is gnawing at my assurance.

UNVOTE REALDEAL
VOTE TELLE

WORK ON ARTWORK

[PackerFanatic]

Interesting developments. I was considering moving my vote, but I don't want to lose my work and I feel that one is as good as the other tonight.

[Telle]

We currently have three on Artwork, correct?

Only two. Hoops's got canceled when he unvoted and then voted again.

[RendeR]

My reasoning:

I am, it would seem, the lone voice on the RD side. Many voices on the Telle side.

Occamz razor.

[PurdueBrad]

Interesting that a lot of the votes on me are double votes.

I agree, so people are certain. I'm surprised, if good, there is no equal movement of double votes to keep you alive, particularly if you are the strongest of all the angels.

[Passacaglia]

If voting for RD is a losing fight, why not put in some work?

[hoopsguy]

10 - Telle - Danny (442), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458), Hoops (495), KWhit (521), PB (527), PB (527), Alan (538), Alan (538)


7 - RealDeal - RendeR (275), DaddyTorgo (380), PackerFanatic (397), Telle (403), Telle (403), jeheinze (437), Jonathan (536)

[Telle]

HRm. up 3, nothing I can do to change that. I really don't like RD's play here, its chewing at me. but a number of things have come up that is gnawing at my assurance.

UNVOTE REALDEAL
VOTE TELLE

WORK ON ARTWORK

Well that was dumb. You can't unvote and revote AND do work. So basically you moved your vote for little to no reason and then lost your ability to do anything.

[RendeR]

You can't switch from voting to work, if you voted you MUST remain voting.

[RealDeal]

You have chosen wisely, Render.

[hoopsguy]

Only two. Hoops's got canceled when he unvoted and then voted again.

I do not think that is how it works. I believe my artwork stays but I had to keep my vote as a vote ... just could not move to work instead.

[RendeR]

You can change your vote, it doens't take away your second action, you simply can't change from voting to work with teh same action.

I voted once, I worked once. I simply moved my vote.

[KWhit]

Vote count?

[Telle]

"Once a player votes they may unvote and choose a different player to vote for but they may not work on the Cathederal. "

[RendeR]

"Once a player votes they may unvote and choose a different player to vote for but they may not work on the Cathederal. "


Exactly, with that action you cannot change to working. Once you've voted it must remain a voting action.

[Telle]

Vote count?

I'm up by 5. It's a freaking landslide. You're all believing a rather daring wolf and are going to lose your biggest ally.

[RendeR]

I've gotta go shut down rooms, back in a few.

[Tyrith]

"Once a player votes they may unvote and choose a different player to vote for but they may not work on the Cathederal. "

Yeah, pretty sure that means you can't switch a vote to working a shift. I'm pretty certain that doesn't mean that unvoting kills your ability to work with your other shift.

[Telle]

Exactly, with that action you cannot change to working. Once you've voted it must remain a voting action.

That's not how I interpreted it. Either way, it needs to be worded better.

[KWhit]

I'm up by 5. It's a freaking landslide. You're all believing a rather daring wolf and are going to lose your biggest ally.

If true, that would suck. For sure.

But I personally think you're full of it.

[Chief Rum]

Okay, I'm in a panicky rush getting in here. What do I need to do right now?

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Although it pains me to have to demean myself by doing such common labor, I'm willing to do so for the glory of our Lord.

WORK ON CARPENTRY

[Telle]

Okay, I'm in a panicky rush getting in here. What do I need to do right now?

Vote for RealDeal and get five of your friends to join you :)

[Alan T]

Okay, I'm in a panicky rush getting in here. What do I need to do right now?


Telle is up by 5. So I would just work on the cathedral unless you have some big news to change things up in the next 60 seconds.

[Chief Rum]

WORK CARPENTRY
WORK ARTWORK

[Chief Rum]

Telle is up by 5. So I would just work on the cathedral unless you have some big news to change things up in the next 60 seconds.

Wow, so no one's buying the St. Gabriel thing? Can't wait to read up.

I just tossed on a couple work orders, outta time. Hope that they help.

[Chief Rum]

WORK CARPENTRY
WORK ARTWORK

Bolded for clarity.

[Alan T]

Wow, so no one's buying the St. Gabriel thing? Can't wait to read up.

I just tossed on a couple work orders, outta time. Hope that they help.


Well two people came out and flat say Telle was lying about being Gabriel. One of the two had some leeway about how it might not mean Telle was bad, but the other said 100% Telle was bad. So that made the decision easier.

[Telle]

Bunch of stupid idiot humans being led around by a demon. THIS is what I get for trying to help humankind.

[DaddyTorgo]

wow - so things flipped round?

*crosses fingers* hopefully we got a demon

[PackerFanatic]

Ah, that interpretation of the "switch vote, no work" thing makes more sense. I was along the same line of thinking as Telle.

No worries, she is hung either way.

[Barkeep49]

Results are going up in about 15 mins. Sorry for not being closer to deadline with them.

[Chief Rum]

Bunch of stupid idiot humans being led around by a demon. THIS is what I get for trying to help humankind.

So did you drop any hints as to the identity of Lucifer? I know it says you can't say it outright, but maybe if we can look at your posts for clues.

That said, I am going to have to go with the logic of the rest of the village until I see otherwise. Hard to beat two people coming out against you, and no one at all (I guess?) coming out for you.

[Barkeep49]

Each action is independent. So you can vote, unvote, & vote with your first action while still being able to work with your second action. However whne you work with any action it's locked in. You can't work on a different place or change your vote.

[Chief Rum]

Each action is independent. So you can vote, unvote, & vote with your first action while still being able to work with your second action. However whne you work with any action it's locked in. You can't work on a different place or change your vote.

This directed at anyone in particular?

[RendeR]

Telle was confused as to the definition/ability to change votes and still work.

[RendeR]

cmon BK I wanna go home =)

[hoopsguy]

Yep, he is definitely milking this :)

[RendeR]

Ok I've watched almost all the extra features on my Serenity DVD.....

[dubb93]

Ok I've watched almost all the extra features on my Serenity DVD.....

Maybe its time to pop in firefly.

[RendeR]

"You see us fight?"

[Barkeep49]

Today you decide that perhaps Telle isn't really an angel (though based on her husband this does seem like dubious reasoning). Perhaps that Real Deal feller is more, you know, the Real Deal. So into the hangman's noose goes Telle's head. And sure enough she dies, with nary an indication of being an angel. And when her quarters are searched, her unseemly attachment to the demonic only makes it more clear that you made the right choice.


Your betters keep telling you that they are better than you. Well you’ve heard far too much of that nonsense. You’ve always done the little things to get your revenge upon them. You know like spilling the chamber pot so their bedroom smells. Spitting in their food. That sort of thing. But now you hear tell of demons being in this town. What fortune for you! You’ve always studied demons and consider yourself a cultist.

As cultist you know that the demons are though you may not communicate with them and they do not know who you are (since they might not like you as much as you like them). You may also choose one player to watch during the day. If you watch an angel you and the demons will learn part of the angels mission on Earth. You may not watch the same person two days in a row.

RealDeal - DaddyTorgo (380), PackerFanatic (397), Telle (403), Telle (403), jeheinze (437), Jonathan (536)
Telle - Danny (442), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458), hoops (495), KWhit (521), Purdue (527), Purdue (527), Alan (538), Alan (538), Render (543)


Walls - Pass(282)
Carpentry - Danny(443), Packer(339), Tyrith(419), Tyrith(419), jackal (469), KWHit (521), Jonathan (564), CR (567)
artwork - Hoops(315), Jackal(318), Daddy T (512), Render (543), CR (567)
Roof – Pass


Walls - 1 shift
Roof - 7 shifts
Windows - 7 shifts
Artwork - Repaired
Carpentry - Repaired

[PackerFanatic]

Well hot damn. Looks more likely that RD was telling the truth then I suppose.

[Telle]

Oh shit.. I totally forgot about the watching part. Guess I didn't play as good as a cultist as I thought.

Ah well.. still bagged the seer and looks like I almost got an angel :)

[Tyrith]

Hm, looks like someone got prevented from doing their job.

[Alan T]

Walls - Pass(282)
Carpentry - Danny(443), Packer(339), Tyrith(419), Tyrith(419), jackal (469), KWHit (521), Jonathan (564), CR (567)
artwork - Hoops(315), Jackal(318), Daddy T (512), Render (543), CR (567)
Roof – Pass


Walls - 1 shift
Roof - 7 shifts
Windows - 7 shifts
Artwork - Repaired
Carpentry - Repaired

BK, the counts for Pass seem to be off. You say he worked on walls + Roof, but his post quoted below is 2x walls. Shouldn't this mean the walls are now completed?


WORK ON WALLS
WORK ON WALLS

If anyone wants to double up on me, I understand.

[PurdueBrad]

Hey, we'll take it (although I was hoping for a demon)! I'm out for the night, tough one with the wife tonight. See you in the morning all.

[hoopsguy]

Math for the win.

[Passacaglia]

Nice job getting Telle, guys. Sucks we had to have so many reveals to get there.

Looks like someone shifted my work.

[Barkeep49]

Alan: there is no mistake with that.

[The Jackal]

Well I'm glad she wasn't Gabriel, that's for sure.

[hoopsguy]

OK, lets put some extra actions on the walls tomorrow. Don't need to go hog wild, but maybe one action each from three people?

As it stands right now, I do not believe we can build/defend the Cathedral for a win until at least Day 6.

Day 3 - finish walls
Day 4 - start work on Roof/Windows
Day 5 - finish work on all sections
Day 6 - defend our Cathedral

[Passacaglia]

Oh what a bunch of crap. And since the walls weren't done, the roof action didn't even do anything.

[PackerFanatic]

...so why would Pass skip a wall and go to something that can't be worked on until the walls are done?

[Passacaglia]

...so why would Pass skip a wall and go to something that can't be worked on until the walls are done?

I'm assuming a demon made me do it.

[Chief Rum]

Great get with Telle.

Tough luck with the Walls. Obviously, we needed more work there. Which is disappointing to me, because I made the assumption with my quick vote that we already had enough Wall votes to ensure success there. (sigh)

All right, I am heading back out to go work out, and I will be back to read up later tonight.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

This makes no sense to me. And now we find out that you don't have to fake a work to do your night action? You faked it for spiritual health? Are you allowed to explain spiritual health to us?

And would you also care to explain why finishing the artwork on day one is more important than the walls?

RealDeal,

I'm still waiting...

[Alan T]

Well, seems like we have a good place for a trust list here:

Trust:
RealDeal (appears to be who he says he is)

Semi-Trust:
Render and Jonathan E. (Both vouch each other are humans and the only way one can be bad is if the other is also)

Decent-Trust :
PurdueBrad (was lynchpin in Telle's death today).


The bad thing being that Telle was the cultist, it now means a bit less in trying to track down demons as they possibly wouldn't have known which one was lying. At least to myself it seems pretty obvious that Telle's story wasn't nearly as sound as RealDeal's was, and it seems like several others felt the same way. So I wouldn't be suprised if the Demons also saw through Telle's story (especially Lucifer who knew that Telle was lying).

I think all said and done, Passacaglia still seems like a decent target to look at.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Carpentry - Danny(443), Packer(339), Tyrith(419), Tyrith(419), jackal (469), KWHit (521), Jonathan (564), CR (567)

Carpentry - Repaired

Throwing stuff out of my brain:

Eight actions were needed for the carpentry to be finished, and eight actions were made. On the face of it, it looks like everyone's action was legit, but I notice that KWhit was one of the workers. Since he's the master carpenter, I wonder if his actions on the carpentry are possibly doubled or something. I'm probably way off base, but I don't want to automatically assume that everyone on the carpentry workforce today was sincere in their action.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Trust:
RealDeal (appears to be who he says he is)

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. It's not that I completely think he is evil, but he's by no means crossed over into my trusted list. The fact that he decided not to work on the walls on day one and work on the artwork instead is a move I just can't wrap my head around.

While it would be easy for an angel to know if Telle was lying, wouldn't a demon know as well? Lucifer knew that Telle was lying and what better way to get on the side of good than to come out strong against a wolfish player? I know there is a restriction on Lucifer telling the demons who Gabriel is, but can Lucifer tell the demons that someone is lying about being Gabriel? Or at least hint strongly that Telle is not who she claims to be? Or have I lost the plot completely?

[Danny]

Glad we at least got someone who is bad. Too bad it wasn't day 1.

[Chief Rum]

Okay, having re-read from the start, it amazes me anyone even came close to buying Telle's story. I know I come from hindsight on that, so I guess you can pin it down to that if you want, but really at no point was anything Telle was saying nearly as creditable to me as RealDeal. And while I believe Render is a villager, given his vouchsafe with JE, it felt like he was stubbornly locked into RD and making really complicated arguments and ignoring basic logic to go after RD (and throwing around Occam's Razor a lot, ironically).

That doesn't change for me the fact that I think Render is a villager, but until I see otherwise, I am leaning to discounting his logic in the game until it makes more sense to me.

Interesting sidenote that is, to my viewing, still unresolved: Alan T seems to be coming out fairly strongly for PB's villager-ness, based on some hints given or interaction that is unclear to anyone but them. But PB spends significant time asking for opinions about Alan's allegiance, even when Alan was really not the focal point of today's discussion.

Point is, PB ain't reciprocating (yet), and whatever information they have on one another, it is apparently less revealing about Alan than it is PB.

There is an outside chance that Alan and PB are drumming up some complicated wolf play, and if I were to choose to do that, I think this kind of confusion would be an ideal way to try it. But it seems to be an unnecessary risk so early in the game, so I tend to discount that.

BTW, I don't have the time right now to check it out, but it might be good to check out Telle's posts to see if we can glean any allegiance from who she does or does not go after and speak about. She knew who the Demons are.

Also, if Pass is telling the truth, based on the posted ruleset, we now know at least one power of Lucifer. I don't see any ability among the other demons that suggest the ability to switch a work assignment, but Lucifer has a number of hidden abilties (as does Lucifer).

I will be working again tomorrow, but I have done my overtime for the week, and have other errands to do at home tomorrow night, so I am pretty certain to be around an hour or two before deadline to get my actions in (in a more timely manner than tonight anyway).

[Barkeep49]

You better hope you don't get sick any more now that your healer, a must good sort, has been brutally and bloodily killed.

Healer is so much more of a refined title than Witch. You know some call you a witch, but that’s just not what you do and of course they don’t call you that when they’re ill and in need of your help. Due to your worldly knowledge each night you may choose a player to investigate. You will learn if they are a regular villager or supernatural, though not if they are a demon or angel.

Walls - 1 shift
Roof - 7 shifts
Windows - 7 shifts
Artwork - Repaired
Carpentry - Repaired

[Passacaglia]

Looking at the first page, the healer was PurdueBrad.

[Passacaglia]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. It's not that I completely think he is evil, but he's by no means crossed over into my trusted list. The fact that he decided not to work on the walls on day one and work on the artwork instead is a move I just can't wrap my head around.

While it would be easy for an angel to know if Telle was lying, wouldn't a demon know as well? Lucifer knew that Telle was lying and what better way to get on the side of good than to come out strong against a wolfish player? I know there is a restriction on Lucifer telling the demons who Gabriel is, but can Lucifer tell the demons that someone is lying about being Gabriel? Or at least hint strongly that Telle is not who she claims to be? Or have I lost the plot completely?

I'm not sure I understand. If RealDeal was a demon, and knew Telle was lying about being Gabriel, why would he say anything? If he was a demon, the only explanation that makes sense from his perspective (knowing that she is not a demon, and probably knowing that she is not Gabriel), is that she's the cultist. This is backed up based on how insistent she was that she would scan as a villager -- despite RendeR's argument that she might have been an angel other than Gabriel.

Also, he didn't work on artwork instead -- he faked one of his work periods on the walls. This doesn't make him less likely to be an angel IMO -- it just means the angels have win conditions such that it made sense to fake the work.

[Passacaglia]

Off to work in a bit. I should be here by deadline, so I won't put in actions now. Hopefully PB spotted a human for us -- I'll check through his posts, but someone else should as well, so the info gets out there before I get back.

[PurdueBrad]

Ummm, OUCH! Good luck village.

[hoopsguy]

Off to work in a bit. I should be here by deadline, so I won't put in actions now. Hopefully PB spotted a human for us -- I'll check through his posts, but someone else should as well, so the info gets out there before I get back.

I'm pretty sure PB scanned Alan yesterday and he was supernatural. I'll dig up the post.

[hoopsguy]

Looking at that list, Hannibal is dead, we're not quite sure where to go on Telle's reveal, leaving: Chief Rum and PurdueBrad who did 2 units of worked and could have faked both OR a combination of RendeR, Real, Alan, Telle, CR, and PB each faking one unit.

Honestly, I would be more likely to believe that two people each faked one unit of work rather than one person taking the early burden of faking two. I could be wrong. Looking at that list, I'm not quite ready to go Telle, leaving it RendeR, Real, or Alan T for me and I will throw out an early vote.

I may be holding up a double-standard here by not going after Hoops for not using his second action as well, but I feel like that Alan both worked on walls AND didn't use his second action. I'm guessing that the supernatural label fits him to A T. although I think this will drive some action against me.

vote Alan T.
vote Alan T.

"supernatural label fits him to A T". So it looks like a 50/50 shot of angel/demon.

[hoopsguy]

Also, for work today there is only one unit of walls that we can complete. So I would suggest that today be a very vote-heavy day. 3 people with one action on walls (we need them done, period) and everyone else putting in double votes today seems right to me.

[Alan T]

I'm pretty sure PB scanned Alan yesterday and he was supernatural. I'll dig up the post.


I don't think this is a suprise to anyone. He pretty much outed me in the thread yesterday and while no one ever came right out and said I was an angel, it likely was clear thanks to PurdueBrad's handling of his information regarding me that I was either an angel or demon.

As I eluded to yesterday directly at PurdueBrad, I really wished he had handled it differently and at least given me time to catch up and try to "communicate" with him instead of rushing in how he did and blowing both his and my cover. Real Deal could attest to if he wanted that I pretty much commented to the other angels earlier in the morning that PB had thrown out hints and knew I was one or the other.

You are correct however, that it is 50/50 chance in a villager's eyes that I am angel/demon. I guess it is up to your better judgement if you really think my play yesterday was "demon play"

Since PurdueBrad already outed me, no harm in giving at least a decent amount of information that I have available.

I am the Angel Seraph

I have taken the human form of this minstrel and in doing so have been working to master some of the abilities that the minstrel may have had prior.

(Game note: my impression of my PM is that all of the human roles had some special catch to them or minor way of "helping" Then the demons and angels were randomly rolled to see which ones ended up being the angels and demons. I am sure Barkeep had some game balancing, but for the most part it seems that Angels (and likely Demons) have not only their angel abilities but also at least some form of their human host's abilities as well).

As for my mission on this Earth, I am told that there are several pieces to it. The building and protection of the Cathedral is of utmost importance. There also is one among you humans that is of such virtue that he shall one day become a Saint. We shall do our best to protect him as well. (I shall not give up the name of who that is). Finally we must safeguard the spiritual health of this community. There will be some form of rewards for the humans at different levels of spiritual health. The downside to this part is the only way to safeguard your spiritual health is to fake our work on the cathedral.

I won't go into any detail of what specific abilities or powers myself or my fellow angels have, even though RealDeal did discuss his a bit. We do have some forms of protection for both the cathedral, our fellow Angels and you humans that can be used. Unfortunately we won't be of any added help in locating the demons as we must weigh each person's actions the same as you in determining who is not of the true faith. It makes me sad that those humans who had such abilities are no longer among us as well.

Now for my own personal daytime actions thus far this game: Day 1, I worked on the walls and the artwork and faked neither of them. (I was not one of the ones who faked the walls that day and I was honest in my thought that it was Telle + Real Deal who did fake them. Telle for evil intent and Real Deal for a noble intent.

Day two I obviously voted twice for Telle.

I won't go into detail about what I have been up to at night as that is not important at this point. I am a little upset at being outed by PB so early, but on the other side at least it can help foster more openness between the Angels and the Humans. I apologize if my participation in day time discussions aren't as high as you normally would expect, but I also have quite a heavy work load that keeps me away from the forums a good part of the day currently.

[DaddyTorgo]

busy morning at work. hopefully the afternoon will slow down a bit. just gonna read the results.

[hoopsguy]

Your vote + trust list from last night pretty strongly suggest that you were aligning yourself with RealDeal. So if he isn't going to come out burying you today then I'm inclined to trust you.

If the angels had "forms of protection for humans" that could have been used then why wouldn't you have tried to guard PB last night? Was this at least discussed?

[Alan T]

Your vote + trust list from last night pretty strongly suggest that you were aligning yourself with RealDeal. So if he isn't going to come out burying you today then I'm inclined to trust you.

If the angels had "forms of protection for humans" that could have been used then why wouldn't you have tried to guard PB last night? Was this at least discussed?


I don't think it is a good idea to openly discuss how that protection works, when it works and what is involved. The only way I can answer this question is that it seemed fairly likely with the way PurdueBrad came out yesterday first in the morning and later in the afternoon at least to me that he would have a target on his back last night. I am sad that he has passed away and if I could have prevented it, I would have.

[Alan T]

Having DaddyTorgo pop in the thread, and the conversation about PurdueBrad leads me to also desire to draw an interesting parallel.

Here are two different proclaimed humans that both had individual information presented to them during the day that helped them learn about someone else.

PurdueBrad had received information about me and pretty much immediately decided a 50/50 chance was good enough for him and came after me, dropping clues in the thread just in case he died I suppose. But the clues were a bit too obvious to me and was discussed among the angels that morning first thing. I assume the demons also were just as observant about them. Later in the day as the vote goes a different direction, and one that he had no special information about he stuck to his own 50/50 chance, further hilighting that he had special information about me. Finally later in the day he was pretty out front and basically gave away that he knew there was something special about me and wanted to find out how Real Deal and Telle aligned themselves with me.

DaddyTorgo on the other hand received information about Telle that told him she was lying. Doing the math here, there was two good roles and four bad roles that Telle could have been to have logically produced this lie. Instead of playing the percentages, DaddyTorgo went with the 33% chance and said he felt she was good, and arguement that only he and Render believed in. Does this automatically mean to me that DaddyTorgo is bad in my mind? Probably not, perhaps it was just a bad play on his part, or an error in judgement. The main thing stopping me from outright putting a vote on DaddyTorgo after this play is that Telle was not a demon, but instead the cultist. So only 5 people would know otherwise that Telle was not Gabriel, the three angels, and Lucifer. I assume the other two demons would not know as Lucifer is not allowed to say so. That means to me that either DaddyTorgo is Lucifer, or a human that just made a poor play. For now the odds suggest giving him the benefit of the doubt I suppose.

[hoopsguy]

Fair enough, agreed that you do not want to give away an edge publicly. But I also thought PB had put himself out there last night and thought he made for a good bodyguard option.

After re-reading the last few pages over again I'm just about positive that RealDeal will not be gunning for you today.

[DaddyTorgo]

More people were inclined to that way of thinking earlier in the day if you look at the voting history. RendeR laid out a good-looking case, complete with work-faking and a quasi-reveal. Even down to about the time I was called away last night before deadline it was still a bit murky. Fact is until the PB-thing went down, the only votes on Telle were 3 by RealDeal and one by someone else (I forget who). 5 seperate people (or so) had voted RealDeal.

I made an error in judgement obviously and wasn't around to correct it. It happens.

fairly busy day at work, not sure how around i'll be right now.

[RealDeal]

So there's no doubt, everything Alan T. says is true. He is an angel.

It's a shame he had to reveal. Not sure why Purdue and Render were basically trying to make me reveal him last night. That's not very good villager play.

[Danny]

At this point, assuming RealDeal doesn't come out against him, I see no reason to not believe Alan T and look elsewhere for a demon.

Also, since Telle likely faked her work and RealDeal faked one point, that accounts for all work faked on the walls from day one.

[Danny]

And I missed Real's post. He confirmed it, so we should look elsewhere for a vote today.

[Danny]

More people were inclined to that way of thinking earlier in the day if you look at the voting history. RendeR laid out a good-looking case, complete with work-faking and a quasi-reveal. Even down to about the time I was called away last night before deadline it was still a bit murky. Fact is until the PB-thing went down, the only votes on Telle were 3 by RealDeal and one by someone else (I forget who). 5 seperate people (or so) had voted RealDeal.

I made an error in judgement obviously and wasn't around to correct it. It happens.

fairly busy day at work, not sure how around i'll be right now.

That vote for Telle was mine. Logic clearly backed up RealDeal more than Telle. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if a demon or two dropped a vote on her later.

[Danny]

Telle - Danny (442), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458), hoops (495), KWhit (521), Purdue (527), Purdue (527), Alan (538), Alan (538), Render (543)

For now we can assume RealDeal, and Alan T are angels. If they were not, I am sure a real angel would come out to catch two demons which has not happened. Purdue was good and I know I am good. Render has some trust bust on he and Jonathan's thing.

So that leaves KWhit from the group I suspect where a demon put there vote.

Vote KWhit

[Danny]

Hoops is there also, but I am voting Kwhit for the time being. I would strongly think there is a wolf between the two of them.

[Danny]

Off to work, will be back with plenty of time left tonight.

[jeheinz72]

I'm confused Danny, I thought discussion was leaning towards the fact that the demons likely knew Telle was the cultist. Wouldn't they be less inclined to vote for her?

[Alan T]

I don't have a problem with the Kwhit vote myself.

Demons wouldn't have known Telle was the cultist. Only Lucifer did. Kwhit is definitely one of my targets myself as well. I think that was a decent thought process, and in this case, the demons didn't lose regardless who was lynched. So I also think it likely some stayed out of it all together and just went to build things.

I'm still leaning towards voting Passacaglia, but Kwhit would be fine with me as well.

[hoopsguy]

Hoops is there also, but I am voting Kwhit for the time being. I would strongly think there is a wolf between the two of them.

For what it is worth, I believed RealDeal over Telle earlier in the day but I was interested in seeing how it shook out and what positions people would take on it. When I arrived the vote was 6-4 to lynch RealDeal, with three of the Telle votes coming from RealDeal himself. I stated my case at that point on why I believed RealDeal, still did not see people moving, so I put my vote down to see how it would shake out.

If I had a vested interest in the vote going the other way I probably would have voted to make it 7-4 and try to put some distance on this one rather than closing the gap.

[Alan T]

Looking at my last post and the poor grammar there ugh... I can't wait till work settles down.

[hoopsguy]

I don't have a problem with the Kwhit vote myself.

Demons wouldn't have known Telle was the cultist. Only Lucifer did. Kwhit is definitely one of my targets myself as well. I think that was a decent thought process, and in this case, the demons didn't lose regardless who was lynched. So I also think it likely some stayed out of it all together and just went to build things.

I'm still leaning towards voting Passacaglia, but Kwhit would be fine with me as well.

I think this may have been the case as well. The angels knew one of their own was on the block and backed him with 5+ votes (3 Real Deal, 2 Alan, assuming at least one more is on him). The demons knew one of their own was not on the block, so where do they put their votes? Well, not a lot of incentive to get mixed up in this one unless it is to make sure they create a two-candidate run-off that doesn't include one of their own.

I think they either voted early on this or avoided it to do work. They clearly did not vote late, as PB + Alan + Render were the votes after KWhit.

[RealDeal]

More people were inclined to that way of thinking earlier in the day if you look at the voting history. RendeR laid out a good-looking case, complete with work-faking and a quasi-reveal. Even down to about the time I was called away last night before deadline it was still a bit murky. Fact is until the PB-thing went down, the only votes on Telle were 3 by RealDeal and one by someone else (I forget who). 5 seperate people (or so) had voted RealDeal.

I made an error in judgement obviously and wasn't around to correct it. It happens.

fairly busy day at work, not sure how around i'll be right now.

The work-faking really shouldn't have contributed to the case against me since the only reason anyone knew that is because I told them.

I was stunned that you were not voting for Telle when you knew with 100% certainty that she was lying. I'm still trying to figure that out.

[hoopsguy]

RD, for what it is worth I wish that one of the angels has suggested putting extra work on the walls if you knew that you were going to have to fake on that section to achieve other goals.

That said, you guys are right about DT making a weird vote there. Math suggested there were more bad roles than good roles if Telle was not Gabriel.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

The work-faking really shouldn't have contributed to the case against me since the only reason anyone knew that is because I told them.

That's actually the only thing that convinced me to vote for you. First, you lied and said that you had placed two work actions on the walls. Then when asked about which action you faked and you said walls, you didn't have a legitimate (to me) reason for not working on the walls. I still don't understand why you chose to work on the artwork instead of the walls.

While I do appreciate that you came forward and gave us this information on your own, I hope you can see why I was leery of your reveal.

[hoopsguy]

RealDeal - DaddyTorgo (380), PackerFanatic (397), Telle (403), Telle (403), jeheinze (437), Jonathan (536)

Telle - Danny (442), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458), hoops (495), KWhit (521), Purdue (527), Purdue (527), Alan (538), Alan (538), Render (543)


Walls - Pass(282)

Carpentry - Danny(443), Packer(339), Tyrith(419), Tyrith(419), jackal (469), KWHit (521), Jonathan (564), CR (567)

artwork - Hoops(315), Jackal(318), Daddy T (512), Render (543), CR (567)

Roof – Pass


OK, that is the final tally from yesterday. I'm going to work on putting together the old "vote/unvote" grid to see what jumps out. I know RendeR was on RD early and was in position to have the "longest held vote" for the tie-breaker before he switched.

[Alan T]

Trying to tie together various actions of unknowns and knowns , one thing that jumped out at me was:

Telle as the cultist knew who the demons were, the demons did not know who the cultist was. When there were suddenly two different people stating that Telle was lying, the demons had to assume that she was the Cultist. Did Telle try to signal anywhere previously? Was there any lines drawn previously?

Day one, the first vote thrown out there was Packerfanatic's vote on Hannibal. Seemingly innocent, first vote no big deal. No one knew Hannibal was the seer, no reason for a big push. Suddenly the second vote of the day also was real quickly thrown on Hannibal by Telle as well.

It was a day that likely was going to get less votewise as many people had already stated they likely were going to use both actions on building instead of voting. So perhaps only 4-5 votes would be needed for a lynch, and Telle's second vote real quick put Hannibal in increasing danger.

The quick second vote on someone doesn't really make much sense for a wolf to do nor a villager to do in most games, and in most games trying to lynch someone from being the second vote on a player ends up in just lynching a villager. This was different however in that Telle was the cultist and possibly was looking for ways to send messages to the wolves.

So what if there was a reason for the quick second vote? It would tell two things, obviously as we know Hannibal is not a demon, but would it tell something to Packerfanatic as well?

Lets look at how Packerfanatic then responded in day 2 when Telle was on the line and two people revealed that she was not Gabriel. Packer was a real quick second vote on RealDeal in a move that didn't really make much sense. We already discussed Render and DaddyTorgo's play there in more depth, but Packerfanatic also either made the same mistake or had some other reason for doing so..


So yeah, it could be completely coincidental how Packer and Telle paired up not only in votes but in how they acted, but there could also be something more to it. Just throwing another name out for discussion here.

[jeheinz72]

Man, this is one of those games where I just feel so less informed than everyone else and I can't catch up. I totally screwed the pooch yesterday letting my emotions of RD's tact get the better of sound judgement.

All I really know if Alan and RD are angels and it's not being disputed. Seeing as that I'm a villager and they're the good guys, I'm inclined to vote with them today.

If work needs to be done, someone just clue me in as to where. I'd be happy to be one of the wall workers (we need 3, right?)

[hoopsguy]

Hmm, the post review is going to be a monster so I'm going to try and break it into smaller chunks.



Post #280 - BK announces Lathum is dead
Post #282 - Pass double vote to do work on Walls
Post #284 - Pass: "faking this work would be suicide"
Post #286 - PB double votes Alan (already explained by now)
Post #303 - KWhit says he will look past Telle for now, this will sort itself out
Post #306 - I say that many people would know Telle is lying if she is lying
Post #307 - PF agrees with my post, says to go elsewhere than Telle for lynch is a better idea
Post #308 - Danny agrees with PF
Post #313 - Heinz agrees with leaving Telle alone today
Post #316 - I assume Telle is an angel because no one has called her out yet
Post #323 - Heinz votes Chief Rum
Post #324 - DT asks Telle if she is Gabriel, refers to last game costing team when they left unverified player alone for days
Post #327 - Telle says she is Gabriel
Post #335 - Tyrith says he will likely vote "for one of the wall gang"
Post #347 - Render says he does not think Telle is lying with her reveal
Post #353 - DT reveals that Telle is not Gabriel
Pots #354 - Hoops votes PurdueBrad
Posts #356-360 - Telle disputes DTs "scan"

[hoopsguy]

Part Two:

Post #361 - RD says that Torgo confirms his suspicions, says he can potentially cast three votes on Telle and is going to do so
Post #363 - RendeR argues that DTs info does not damn Telle
Post #366 - RendeR thinks RD is a suspect for going after Telle
Post #371 - Hoops: math says vote for Telle, but doesn't want to end up crossing up angels
Post #375 - Render reveals that he/Jonathan can cross-vouch each other as human. Votes RealDeal
Post #380 - DT votes RealDeal
Post #381 - Jonathan backs rendeR
Post #385 - Hoops unvotes PurdueBrad
Post #392 - RendeR explains vote on RealDeal is based on the vigor with which he went after Telle, thinks RD is being opportunistic
Post #395 - PF says RD is on his radar
Post #397 - PF votes RD, "sudden play this afternoon seems fishy to me"
Post #400 - RD reveals that he is Michah

[PackerFanatic]

I was going to switch to Telle after the events of yesterday unfolded, but two things were against me:

A) She was already going down, and my vote was not really needed to begin with

B) I was under the impression that unvoting voided your work, and when I found out otherwise, it was already too late.

I was just thrown off by how quickly RD was jumping on the Telle bandwagon, but I now obviously see why he was doing so, and my thinkings were off-base.

[hoopsguy]

Longest one yet, and last of the post reviews:

Post #401 - RendeR is more confident in his vote after RD reveal
Post #403 - Telle double votes RealDeal
Post #404-412 - RD/Telle discuss revealing Gabriel info
Post #407 - Heinz unvotes Chief Rum
Post #413 - RD asks DT why he is voting for him instead of Telle, who he knows is lying
Post #419 - Tyrith double works on Carpentry
Post #426 - RealDeal presents 4 points to make his case
Post #432 - RealDeal admits to faking walls on day 1
Post #437 - Heinz says "faking walls" seals it, votes for RealDeal
Post #439 - Danny most likely voting Telle
Post #441 - RD is frustrated by villager thought processes
Post #442 - Danny votes Telle
Post #449 - Heinz suggests that DT is looking for wiggle room with his info on Telle
Posts #452-455 - RendeR digs in defending Telle
Post #458 - RD triple votes Telle
Post #461 - DT says that he thought RendeR argued better than RD
Post #478 - Hoops: RD significantly more likely to be angel than Telle
Post #486 - RD explains angel approach with Telle, says he does not think RendeR=demon
Post #495 - Hoops votes Telle
Post #505 - Pass challenges RendeR, suggests he does not believe what he is saying
Post #507 - Pass follows my reasons for believing RD, but has already put in walls action
Post #509 - Alan tells PB that he is going to vote for Telle, believes RD, questions Pass
Post #512 - DT does artwork with 2nd action
Post #516 - RendeR says that Alan is starting to persuade him to move
Post #520 - Alan responds to RendeR
Post #521 - KWhit votes Telle (ties it) and does Carpentry
Post #527 - PB switches his two votes from Alan to Telle
Post #536 - Jonathan votes RealDeal
Post #538 - Alan double-votes Telle
Post #543 - RendeR changes vote from RD to Telle, works on Artwork
Post #544 - PF says "I was considering moving my vote, but I don't want to lose my work and feel that one is as good as the other tonight"
Post #563 - Rum in with 2 minutes to deadline, "what do I need to do right now?"
Post #567 - Rum does Carpentry, Artwork

[Tyrith]

For the first time all game I'm going to get to be here for more than an hour during the day phase. I'm still thinking about the whole thing, so I'll say something more substantive in a bit, but for now, I'm actually here to participate for once.

[Tyrith]

Well, it seems like there's no good reason to distrust RD and, by association, Alan at this point. If they're both bad then everything we've seen for the last day is an amazing conspiracy and we're never going to win this game, so I'm just going to assume they're both good.

This kind of leaves us on a lurch, because the only good piece of evidence we have is yesterday's vote count and there were a lot of votes that moved right near the end. Normally I'd be pretty suspicious of those people that moved at the end but one of them is a proven good and another is a likely good...so there's already a pretty obvious flaw in that plan.

That said, the highest leverage votes from yesterday seem to be the early ones on RD (even if later moved) or the late ones on Telle. We all, including the wolves, know those are the most useful and most dangerous places for wolves to hide.

Only real particular point of interest for me today is Render, because his entire argument from yesterday looks really crappy now. Telle being the cultist makes it a lot harder for it to seem like a conspiracy, though, unless a hint got across like Alan has been conjecturing.

On the whole, right now I'm absolutely nowhere.

[hoopsguy]

OK, obviously my notes/opinions that are mixed in with the post history are subjective. Another person reading through, and reporting on the posts, may choose to emphasize other points. Yada, yada, yada.

Here are my initial take-aways, with comments on players based on order listed in sign-up post:
- DT's info on Telle started the action, but his play seemed weird from that point on. Like he didn't want to be revealing the info, or didn't want to be responsible for how it shook out?
- Jonathan would be getting quite a bit of pressure from me right now if RendeR had not cleared him. Late votes for people opposing Telle each of the last two days.
- Chief Rum's scheduling issues are making it hard to get a read on him. No votes in first two days
- Tyrith ducked the vote, putting both of his actions into the Cathedral. However, he did have a D1 vote (Telle)
- KWhit was opposed early to idea of acting on Telle, but later cast the tying vote on Telle
- Pass committed both actions to building early in the day. Acted late D1 with double vote for work on Cathedral. Called out Telle on her bluff at end of D1, but was already committed to building.
- Jackal is like Chief Rum (four building votes) but without the well-known scheduling challenges. Tough read, actually forgot he was in game
- Heinz did not vote for Telle either time, has split votes/work. He is definitely on my radar, even without a "smoking gun" reason
- PackerFanatic has had a case made by Alan already. In his defense, his last post from last night matched up verbatim with his response to Alan this morning.

I recognize that this is about half the people in the game that are listed above, so that diminishes the value. But at least it should provide some talking points for today and give people an opportunity to respond.

I also don't necessarily want to see today turn into a game of "follow the vote of the angel" because that isn't helping us understand the motivations of the villagers/demons in the game.

[PurdueBrad]

Longest one yet, and last of the post reviews:

Post #401 - RendeR is more confident in his vote after RD reveal
Post #403 - Telle double votes RealDeal
Post #404-412 - RD/Telle discuss revealing Gabriel info
Post #407 - Heinz unvotes Chief Rum
Post #413 - RD asks DT why he is voting for him instead of Telle, who he knows is lying
Post #419 - Tyrith double works on Carpentry
Post #426 - RealDeal presents 4 points to make his case
Post #432 - RealDeal admits to faking walls on day 1
Post #437 - Heinz says "faking walls" seals it, votes for RealDeal
Post #439 - Danny most likely voting Telle
Post #441 - RD is frustrated by villager thought processes
Post #442 - Danny votes Telle
Post #449 - Heinz suggests that DT is looking for wiggle room with his info on Telle
Posts #452-455 - RendeR digs in defending Telle
Post #458 - RD triple votes Telle
Post #461 - DT says that he thought RendeR argued better than RD
Post #478 - Hoops: RD significantly more likely to be angel than Telle
Post #486 - RD explains angel approach with Telle, says he does not think RendeR=demon
Post #495 - Hoops votes Telle
Post #505 - Pass challenges RendeR, suggests he does not believe what he is saying
Post #507 - Pass follows my reasons for believing RD, but has already put in walls action
Post #509 - Alan tells PB that he is going to vote for Telle, believes RD, questions Pass
Post #512 - DT does artwork with 2nd action
Post #516 - RendeR says that Alan is starting to persuade him to move
Post #520 - Alan responds to RendeR
Post #521 - KWhit votes Telle (ties it) and does Carpentry
Post #527 - PB switches his two votes from Alan to Telle
Post #536 - Jonathan votes RealDeal
Post #538 - Alan double-votes Telle
Post #543 - RendeR changes vote from RD to Telle, works on Artwork
Post #544 - PF says "I was considering moving my vote, but I don't want to lose my work and feel that one is as good as the other tonight"
Post #563 - Rum in with 2 minutes to deadline, "what do I need to do right now?"
Post #567 - Rum does Carpentry, Artwork

Ummmm, not to be picky, but you missed the most important part...where I die!!!:banghead:

<----- returns to the boneyard

[Tyrith]

If Telle was trying to drop a hint on D1 that was an extremely dangerous way to do it - she very nearly got lynched, and probably should have been lynched. A hint is supposed to be subtle, and it's no good if you aren't alive to use it. That would have been a pretty weird play.

[hoopsguy]

Tyrith, RendeR and Jonathan are vouching for each other so I do not think that he is a prime target for today.

It is already noon (CST) and we do not have any votes or actions in. I know that Friday's can get pretty slow around here so I'm hoping we can get some movement here.

I'll volunteer to put one of the actions in on the walls. I'm hoping that two others will join me to make sure that gets done. Everyone else should double vote.

I would put the walls order in now, but if I do I'm locked with it and there is nothing else to build. So if there are opposing thoughts on this, or certain people are dying to build today then speak quickly. Like in the next hour.

[Tyrith]

Commenting on hoops list, I think anyone who hasn't voted yet should be double voting today. Or anyone that didn't vote yesterday - which expands the group to include myself. This game doesn't seem like we're about to go off chasing our tails around for a day or two like we do sometimes, and that means everyone needs to be willing to risk killing a villager. Just has to be done, even if, like me today, you don't actually know anything.

[Tyrith]

Tyrith, RendeR and Jonathan are vouching for each other so I do not think that he is a prime target for today.

It is already noon (CST) and we do not have any votes or actions in. I know that Friday's can get pretty slow around here so I'm hoping we can get some movement here.

I'll volunteer to put one of the actions in on the walls. I'm hoping that two others will join me to make sure that gets done. Everyone else should double vote.

I would put the walls order in now, but if I do I'm locked with it and there is nothing else to build. So if there are opposing thoughts on this, or certain people are dying to build today then speak quickly. Like in the next hour.

No, no, no. I'm not vouching for those guys in any kind of role sense. But the way everything went down yesterday screams misguided villager towards Render, IMO. JE I don't have any kind of intelligent opinion on.

[hoopsguy]

No, let me restate.

RendeR vouches for Jonathan.
Jonathan cross-vouches for RendeR.

Happened in middle of yesterday, think I have it in my post recaps above.

[Alan T]

I also don't necessarily want to see today turn into a game of "follow the vote of the angel" because that isn't helping us understand the motivations of the villagers/demons in the game.

I am pretty sure that right now we're just as interested in seeing other people's opinion of who are good targets, and we want to get discussion going rather than just dictate whom to go after. I would love to see who different people think are likely suspects including interested in who you think are good suspects for today.

[Alan T]

It is already noon (CST) and we do not have any votes or actions in. I know that Friday's can get pretty slow around here so I'm hoping we can get some movement here.


Someone earlier put a vote on Kwhit that I commented I didn't have a huge problem with. Based on traditional WW game play, looking at voting records is an ideal way to try to progress with discussion and Kwhit and yourself (Hoopsguy) are kind of singled out in the middle of a group of all trusted players. Since you seem to be providing far more input right now than Kwhit, it didn't seem like a bad place to look.

Note that I am not endorsing this vote with any other hidden knowledge, just saying that it seemed like a decent strategy of somewhere that could be looked at for votes.

[PackerFanatic]

I am willing to work on walls and it will get done.

[hoopsguy]

I think Jackal and DT putting their second votes onto the Cathedral when Telle/RealDeal was defined looks bad. Particularly Jackal, who never put out any vote. That seems like someone who is trying to avoid attention.

Both PackerFanatic and KWhit have come up, and their actions were pretty similar early on Day 2 wanting to look somewhere besides Telle. However, PF followed it up with a quick vote on RD and KWhit followed with a tying vote on Telle. I think KWhit looks better than PF out of those two.

My vote(s) will likely be on one of these people today.

[hoopsguy]

I am willing to work on walls and it will get done.

Cool, then lets each put an action down on walls now and hope one more person follows.

WORK ON WALLS

[Alan T]

I am pretty sure that right now we're just as interested in seeing other people's opinion of who are good targets, and we want to get discussion going rather than just dictate whom to go after. I would love to see who different people think are likely suspects including interested in who you think are good suspects for today.


Hey just noticed I'm now a "Head Coach" instead of a "Coordinator". I wasn't sure when it occured so looked at post count history, and evidently this was my 15,000th post. Guess it happened here as it should be for me.

[PackerFanatic]

WORK ON WALLS

[The Jackal]

I think Jackal and DT putting their second votes onto the Cathedral when Telle/RealDeal was defined looks bad. Particularly Jackal, who never put out any vote. That seems like someone who is trying to avoid attention.

I can't speak to DT, but when I put in my second work order it looked like it was going to be a runaway, and I don't think reveals had been made yet. Today I will vote for someone, leaning towards KWhit, PF, or Pass.

I'm not trying to avoid attention, I just haven't had anything useful to add, nor do I have a role with great impact.

[The Jackal]

You'd think I could send my nuns out to spy on people, but no, apparently not.

[hoopsguy]

Hmm, I'm quite sure it was NOT a runaway when DT put in his second order last night.

Jackal, did you believe Telle yesterday when you were around?

[Jonathan Ezarik]

DT's info on Telle started the action, but his play seemed weird from that point on. Like he didn't want to be revealing the info, or didn't want to be responsible for how it shook out?

First, thanks for doing that recap. Helps out a lot. Second, I was a bit confused by DT's play yesterday as well, but I can see where he was coming from. All the info he had was that Telle was lying, not that she was a demon. I would hate to be responsible for lynching an angel because of incomplete information, so I have no problem with him trying to cover his ass. I would have made the same play.

Jonathan would be getting quite a bit of pressure from me right now if RendeR had not cleared him. Late votes for people opposing Telle each of the last two days.

Agreed. I have not played well at all.


Pass committed both actions to building early in the day. Acted late D1 with double vote for work on Cathedral. Called out Telle on her bluff at end of D1, but was already committed to building.

Pass is starting to make me scratch my head. Following Telle's "reveal" he was all for lynching her and tried to get me to switch my vote to her. He couldn't vote that day because he had already submitted his work actions, but why not vote for her on the next day? If you're so sure that her reveal was fake, why put in the early work actions again to handicap yourself from voting? I understand needing to get your actions in early in case you can't check in prior to deadline, but I would at least leave myself the option to vote if I need to. Place a work action and keep your second action in reserve. Saying that you think Telle was lying and then to not vote for her (after trying to get someone to switch their vote to her the previous day) or even vote at all, is very odd to me.

[The Jackal]

When I made my second move I believe I said I didn't feel strongly one way or the other, which I didn't. By the end of the day I figured it was the right choice but at the time (I wasnt sure Id be around at deadline) I figured it would help the village more for me to just build the Cathedral instead of leaving an unsure vote hanging out there.

[The Jackal]

I should clarify - By the end of the day I figured it was the right choice - by that I meant lynching Telle.

[The Jackal]

And I just checked, it was not a runaway when I put in my second action (at 8:43), it was 6-4, so I'll back off that.

[The Jackal]

I think I'll lock myself into voting right now as I've only worked on the Cathedral thus far, putting each on a candidate I have suspicion in.

VOTE PF
VOTE PASS

[The Jackal]

Threadkilling ftw.

[Tyrith]

Well, I'm not really a fan of the vote splitting play because of the reduced pressure it puts on suspects. At least someone is voting, though. And I really would like to figure out what is going on with Pass.

[hoopsguy]

When I made my second move I believe I said I didn't feel strongly one way or the other, which I didn't. By the end of the day I figured it was the right choice but at the time (I wasnt sure Id be around at deadline) I figured it would help the village more for me to just build the Cathedral instead of leaving an unsure vote hanging out there.

That's the thing - I disagree that "leaving an unsure vote hanging out there" helps the village more. We had an either/or situation, so picking a side helps us understand your thought process. Working on the cathedral, while having some in-game value, doesn't help us much in trying to understand your motivations and acting accordingly.

[RealDeal]

I want to start this with the caveat that we don't have definitive information, so don't take this as gospel (no pun intended).

However, Alan T. and I believe that Hoops is a demon.

We would prefer not to use all our votes to hang him tonight, since we would prefer to work on spiritual health, but we will reserve them as necessary if the vote seems to be going sidewise.

You guys are going to have questions as to why we think the way we do, and I can already tell you now you aren't going to get very satisfying answers from us. It is possible we are wrong, and we aren't in a position to tell you exactly why we think we are right. So take this for what's it worth.

[hoopsguy]

I guess I would like to know why you guys think that I'm a demon. It isn't going to be much fun trying to argue this afternoon against the two most "cleared" players in the game.

DT, if you have the ability to scan another statement I think you can find several statements I've made this game that should be worthy of testing.

Normally I would use the argument of "scan me" but we seem to have lost a few of those roles already. So what else can I do to prove my villager status?

[jeheinz72]

I want to start this with the caveat that we don't have definitive information, so don't take this as gospel (no pun intended).

However, Alan T. and I believe that Hoops is a demon.

We would prefer not to use all our votes to hang him tonight, since we would prefer to work on spiritual health, but we will reserve them as necessary if the vote seems to be going sidewise.

You guys are going to have questions as to why we think the way we do, and I can already tell you now you aren't going to get very satisfying answers from us. It is possible we are wrong, and we aren't in a position to tell you exactly why we think we are right. So take this for what's it worth.

First, it's worth noting that you and Alan are the two people I'm putting the most trust in this game (I said that earlier).

With that said though, I just want to make sure I have this right. Basically you want all of us to vote for hoops, but you guys don't want to do it and you don't want to tell us why we should.

I'm not ruling out that I'd still do it, but uhm, yeah that seems a tad needy :D

[hoopsguy]

I'm just not sure how I should respond. Normally this would have me working out scenarios where the person leading the charge is a wolf, but we're pretty certain that Alan + Real Deal are angels.

I think it is way too early in the game for them to be exercising some kind of independent "win conditions" that are anti-village.

Bottom line, if it was not me that they were gunning for I would take a flier on the vote if they say that they have good reasons for it.

[Alan T]

First, it's worth noting that you and Alan are the two people I'm putting the most trust in this game (I said that earlier).

With that said though, I just want to make sure I have this right. Basically you want all of us to vote for hoops, but you guys don't want to do it and you don't want to tell us why we should.

I'm not ruling out that I'd still do it, but uhm, yeah that seems a tad needy :D


There are three goals for today from the good guy perspective:

1) Lynch a demon if we can find one
2) Finish the work on the Walls in the Cathedral
3) Work on safeguarding the spiritual health of the village.


Of those, #2 anyone can do, and it seems like it is almost in a "safe" category. I would like to see one or two more people volunteer on the walls to ensure it gets done however.

#3 Only the Angels can do, thus if we choose to vote, we are not helping keep the village's spiritual health safe. If we can manage to keep the spiritual health safe, after a certain amount, the village will receive some unknown bonus (we are not told what it is either).

[PackerFanatic]

hoops and I are working on the walls, so they will be done tomorrow.

[RealDeal]

First, it's worth noting that you and Alan are the two people I'm putting the most trust in this game (I said that earlier).

With that said though, I just want to make sure I have this right. Basically you want all of us to vote for hoops, but you guys don't want to do it and you don't want to tell us why we should.

I'm not ruling out that I'd still do it, but uhm, yeah that seems a tad needy :D

We want you to vote for Hoops, we believe he is a demon. We would prefer not to have to use our votes to do it because we have parallel goals which are in the interests of the humans and angels. We would rather spend our turns building spiritual health than voting, but we will use our turns to vote if necessary.

As far as reasons, remember that angels can talk amongst themselves and with Gabriel. Gabriel, however, is very restricted in what they can say because they have access to Lucifer, and all of Gabriel's communications go through Barkeep to ensure they are legal. Alan and I, however, knowing this, are able to make some conclusions based on certain interactions in the game thread and in angel chat. Sometimes what a person doesn't say reveals as much as what they do say.

We don't have hard 100% proof, but felt strongly enough we are right to make the recommendation to everyone that Hoops is the person we think should be lynched tonight.

[Tyrith]

hoops and I are working on the walls, so they will be done tomorrow.

Assuming, of course, you aren't both bad.

[hoopsguy]

OK, it has been forty minutes and both angels are in the thread. Can you please tell me why you want to see me lynched today? It is a little frustrating seeing the cleared players leading a charge against you without offering any reasons.

If you are playing a hunch, what led you to this idea?
If you are squeezing me for info, what do you want to know?

I do not know how to demonstrate my allegiances to you guys (hint: villager) other than having you kill me and then say "oops" at the end of the day.

[Barkeep49]

all of Gabriel's communications go through Barkeep to ensure they are legal.

This is not true. Lucifer and Gabriel may ask for guidance in an area, but I trust in their discretion and common sense about what to say. I have asked all people with PM ability, however, to CC me on communications.

[hoopsguy]

hoops and I are working on the walls, so they will be done tomorrow.

If you believe that I'm a demon then it makes sense to have at least one more person back us up. I wanted three earlier to apply enough pressure here that the demons would not volunteer for this work or be able to manipulate people away from the work.

[hoopsguy]

We want you to vote for Hoops, we believe he is a demon. We would prefer not to have to use our votes to do it because we have parallel goals which are in the interests of the humans and angels. We would rather spend our turns building spiritual health than voting, but we will use our turns to vote if necessary.

As far as reasons, remember that angels can talk amongst themselves and with Gabriel. Gabriel, however, is very restricted in what they can say because they have access to Lucifer, and all of Gabriel's communications go through Barkeep to ensure they are legal. Alan and I, however, knowing this, are able to make some conclusions based on certain interactions in the game thread and in angel chat. Sometimes what a person doesn't say reveals as much as what they do say.

We don't have hard 100% proof, but felt strongly enough we are right to make the recommendation to everyone that Hoops is the person we think should be lynched tonight.


OK, so you think that I'm not just a demon, but that I'm Lucifer?

I'm not Lucifer.

I'll rattle off the names of each and every one of the ones listed on the front page if that helps you feel better.

I obviously have no idea what is said (or not said) in angel chat, so that is a tough one for me to address.

[RealDeal]

This is not true. Lucifer and Gabriel may ask for guidance in an area, but I trust in their discretion and common sense about what to say. I have asked all people with PM ability, however, to CC me on communications.

To be precise, all of Gabriel's communications with the other angels are cc'd to barkeep, and our assumption, which I think is correct, is that it is at least partially to monitor those communications.

I did not mean to imply that Gabriel and Lucifer have to pre-clear with barkeep every communication they have.

Barkeep doesn't screen communications, but he does get to see them all.

[Alan T]

OK, it has been forty minutes and both angels are in the thread. Can you please tell me why you want to see me lynched today? It is a little frustrating seeing the cleared players leading a charge against you without offering any reasons.

If you are playing a hunch, what led you to this idea?
If you are squeezing me for info, what do you want to know?

I do not know how to demonstrate my allegiances to you guys (hint: villager) other than having you kill me and then say "oops" at the end of the day.

It is not as much about what we want you to do as it is about what you have already done.

Your reaction yesterday to PurdueBrad was the first thing that tipped me off. I don't know how many people caught his hints (I don't really need a rollcall of those who did and those who didn't), but you are a pretty bright player and to react the way you did to his voting of me seemed off (and was actually opposite of the way I reacted based on the same information seemingly). I have a hard time believing that you missed his hints completely.

Your reaction to the Telle situation yesterday felt to me like someone who was hedging their bets. Really in a win-win situation, you argued the correct side (the mathematical probability of Telle being good), yet did not really commit to it until the "juicy" spot for a vote. As previously discussed the location of your and Kwhit votes both seemed pretty demonish from my point of view, especially for someone who seemed to have decided on their stake in the issue well before the actual vote was cast.

The way that today has played out where you have presented a boatload of information without providing hardly any direct opinions on players feels pretty much like a lawyer trying to bury the opposing side in overload of data so the important pieces kind of get filtered out in the mass storm at some point. It feels very similar to how you have played as a bad guy in the past.

As a good guy, when you do not have an important role you tend to play agressively. You tend to want to push the vote to get people moving even in a game that requires other actions that might conflict with the need for voting (See Spawn 3 game). In this game you have not been taking a hard stance on any vote, and often (as seen in both day 1 and day 2 and even somewhat today) seem to be begging your way out of the vote in a sense to allow others to do the work for you. If you truly did not have a very important role, historically you have used that advantage to try to take a chance, to stir things up to try to see if you can get a pulse on people. That is even more important then ever in a game with the seer already dead and no bodyguard.

So it is not really as much what we want you to do to prove yourself, even though if you have some way of doing so I am all ears.. but more how you have reacted almost every step of this game thus far.

[RealDeal]

OK, so you think that I'm not just a demon, but that I'm Lucifer?

I'm not Lucifer.

I'll rattle off the names of each and every one of the ones listed on the front page if that helps you feel better.

I obviously have no idea what is said (or not said) in angel chat, so that is a tough one for me to address.

We're confident you are a demon. You may be Lucifer.

[DaddyTorgo]

I'm busy at work this afternoon and I may not be around much from 5:30-9ish, so let me try to be brief and address at least one thing I saw related to me up above

I cast my second vote for work last night because I didn't want to vote-split and put one vote on both. I knew I could still move my vote if I had to and that would have even more of an effect than vote-splitting, plus it helped us get work done on the cathedral.

[hoopsguy]

On the Telle situation, if I was a demon I had no reason to hedge my bet. The players involved were an angel and the cultist. I think I would bury the angel in that case if I thought I could get away with it. The reason I held off on the vote from 4PM (leaving work) until 8PM (arriving home) was to see how other people would react to it. I've had pretty good success with that in recent games, putting votes in later and putting down my arguments later in the day. Our moderator can attest to that, as I smoked him pretty hard in a recent game using exactly that tactic.

I put out the data today because I had the time to do it early today (unlike the last couple of days) and because I wanted to get a read on a few people. I've posted on each and every one of them in the thread. There was no "bury people in information" ... if anything, I was hoping to spark some conversation.

At this point I have to hold onto my vote to try and stay alive because that is the only way you are getting a demon today. But putting my initial action on the walls, and tying myself to it, is a crappy way to keep my options open.

[jeheinz72]

Ok, well I'll bite. I'd still like to see at least one of you vote for him too. Like a show of good faith in a way. I'll also be the 3rd person on the walls in case he's faking

Work Walls

[jeheinz72]

Vote hoopsguy

[Alan T]

At this point I have to hold onto my vote to try and stay alive because that is the only way you are getting a demon today. But putting my initial action on the walls, and tying myself to it, is a crappy way to keep my options open.

Right now you are in a four way tie for lead in votes. Who would you put up as your idea of the best lynch choice for today? you seem to have alot of choices to choose from that would also help try to keep you alive by putting them ahead of you in votes.

[PackerFanatic]

If you believe that I'm a demon then it makes sense to have at least one more person back us up. I wanted three earlier to apply enough pressure here that the demons would not volunteer for this work or be able to manipulate people away from the work.

I don't know what I believe yet - but if you ARE a demon and fake your work, then we will still complete the work, as I will not be faking.

[Tyrith]

Yeah, I'm just a little out of it when it comes to this game, it seems. I can't really blame you for wanting to chase him, but I'm not just sure. I'll be around this evening so I will wait, for now.

[PackerFanatic]

VOTE PASS

I am not sure how much I want to jump on the RD/AT bus that is going towards Hoops yet, and Pass is the only other one with a vote right now (besides myself) I won't be around tonight, so hopefully I don't end up biting it :(

Go villagers :)

[RendeR]

I'll be in and out from here on out.

Yesterday I reacted initially to RD's overreaction, it really hit me as a wolf trying to force the issue. His further explanations (with my initial feeling in mind) just made him look worse and worse.

My mind started to change when I looked at the situation from Alan's PoV and then went back and re-read some things. My initial reactions had never really taken the cultist into account, when I went back through everything along that line then I came around to the correct conclusion.

For today I'm really not set on anyone. I was so wraped up in the Rd/telle thing that others just weren't on my scope.

meh.

[jeheinz72]

Well I'm outta here until Monday morning. PEACE!

[hoopsguy]

Right now you are in a four way tie for lead in votes. Who would you put up as your idea of the best lynch choice for today? you seem to have alot of choices to choose from that would also help try to keep you alive by putting them ahead of you in votes.

Well, technically I'm not in a four way tie for the lead as you and RealDeal have five votes between you, along with any additional angel votes. But I'll play along.

I noted earlier who I thought were the ones that looked most suspicious. PF has made me feel a little better by volunteering to do the walls. I do not think that a wolf under duress would want to give up a vote. So I'll take him from the list. That leaves DT, Jackal, and KWhit.
- KWhit tied the vote on Telle, when it was not remotely clear that there was going to be a big swing. I'll give him a little more leeway than the other two.
- DT came forward with info on Telle that made her life more difficult. I don't see the upside in doing that as a demon, so even though I do not understand his play (wrong side of vote, late action to work on building) I'll put him ahead of The Jackal.
- That leaves Jackal, who has not voted this game and acted in a manner that I think made the most sense for demons in a cultist/angel showdown.

VOTE THE JACKAL

[hoopsguy]

The piece I'm really struggling with here is that Alan + RealDeal both seem pretty convinced of the rightness of this action but do not have an argument and are not committing votes to it. Don't get me wrong, I do not want votes today, but it is not like we are having a two way conversation either where they are discussing their suspicion. That might allow me to persuade angels and villagers alike to look in other directions.

Heck, I've changed my mind on my earlier vote. I'll guess that the demons are actually eager to jump on me in this spot. Heinz can always fall back on the "my schedule didn't allow me to get back and change" when it shows up wrong. So I've now convinced myself that he is a more likely demon than The Jackal.

UNVOTE THE JACKAL
VOTE JEHEINZ72

[Alan T]

Well, technically I'm not in a four way tie for the lead as you and RealDeal have five votes between you, along with any additional angel votes. But I'll play along.


- KWhit tied the vote on Telle, when it was not remotely clear that there was going to be a big swing. I'll give him a little more leeway than the other two.


I am glad that you did respond, I was beginning to worry that you just disappeared which is unlike you both as a good guy or a bad guy. :)

I filtered out only two of your comments though to hilight. I appreciate the first as you are correct that you can't necessarily say you are tied if there are plenty of pending votes that could go your way.

However if you choose to argue down that street, you can't then turn it around when it suits you either with Kwhit. Sure he officially tied the vote, but it was after PurdueBrad had pushed me to officially commit one way or another and I had already stated for the record that I was placing both of my votes on Telle.

[Alan T]

Don't get me wrong, I do not want votes today, but it is not like we are having a two way conversation either where they are discussing their suspicion.


I don't really think this comment is very fair. I have posted quite a bit on my suspicions and even line-itemized them for everyone. I actually have had the ability to be fairly available most of today in which I have responded to the majority of the questions. Unfortunately that is not possible once we get to about 5:55 (35 minutes from now) but I don't think your comment is very fair nor accurate at all.

[hoopsguy]

I'll withdraw it if you are going to participate in the thread.

I've had a particularly challenging client engagement this week. Today was the first day I've had much in the way of free time during the day. However, I'm still onsite and still getting called into some meetings. In no way did I want to disappear ... as you noted, I'm willing to mix it up on either side of the fence.

[hoopsguy]

However, take a look at the amount of time that elapsed from when RealDeal first put out the charge and when you responded. RealDeal never outlined a case despite multiple inquiries from me to do so.

In the end, do what you guys think you have to do. I'm going to argue against a vote on me because it is good for the village to get demons, not villagers.

I think I'm in the position today that you were with PurdueBrad yesterday, where you thought he was seeing something that wasn't there but did not doubt his intentions. Well, I do not think that you guys are running some kind of nefarious plot. I have zero reason to think that you are demons. So that leaves me to conclude that you are just wrong.

[Alan T]

I'll withdraw it if you are going to participate in the thread.

I've had a particularly challenging client engagement this week. Today was the first day I've had much in the way of free time during the day. However, I'm still onsite and still getting called into some meetings. In no way did I want to disappear ... as you noted, I'm willing to mix it up on either side of the fence.


Once again, I have been participating in the thread in from my perspective you are the one that was not. I posted my thoughts in much depth at 3:38 ET, you responded only to parts of it at 3:42pm ET. I responded a little bit later at 3:52pm and then you disappeared.

From my vantage point you were the one that stopped participating in the thread.

Either way this is a pretty rediculous subject to harp on when I already stated I only have 25 minutes left till I need to go. So either you have a very warped perspective of this afternoon's conversations or you are trying to set things up for a different agenda that you are going to push.

I absolutely do not believe there is any way you can say at all that no one had accusations based on anything and you can't frame this as a one way conversation that you did not receive responses to. In fact, I feel that you have been the one avoiding the conversation today.

[Alan T]

However, take a look at the amount of time that elapsed from when RealDeal first put out the charge and when you responded. RealDeal never outlined a case despite multiple inquiries from me to do so.

In the end, do what you guys think you have to do. I'm going to argue against a vote on me because it is good for the village to get demons, not villagers.

I think I'm in the position today that you were with PurdueBrad yesterday, where you thought he was seeing something that wasn't there but did not doubt his intentions. Well, I do not think that you guys are running some kind of nefarious plot. I have zero reason to think that you are demons. So that leaves me to conclude that you are just wrong.

I don't see how the 30 minutes between the time when Real Deal put his post out and when I got back here and started responding is unfavorable to me at all considering the nearly 90 minutes you failed to respond to my posts until just recently.

Once again, I think this is a rather silly thing to try to base your innocence on to try to sway voters.

And this also is nothing like the case yesterday with PurdueBrad, where I actually caught his clues right away, we discussed it among the angels right away and throughout the day the best way to handle it. You on the other hand chose to either purposely ignore the hints or you didn't see them (which would be a first for you most likely) and instead pushed some conversation and threw a half-hearted vote out his way as well.

[hoopsguy]

For what it is worth, if you are out at the end of the hour then we probably won't have time for a back-and-forth as I'm having to move onto another conference. I'll defintely be around tonight for anyone who is around to discuss.

[Alan T]

For what it is worth, if you are out at the end of the hour then we probably won't have time for a back-and-forth as I'm having to move onto another conference. I'll defintely be around tonight for anyone who is around to discuss.


Fair enough, but once again, I take offense to the charge that I did not allow you an opportunity to respond to my points as I've been here a solid 2 hours since bringing them up.

I also will be here at times tonight, but not dedicated here as I was today, as I'll be sneaking in glances at the board when my wife is not looking. I have a conference call at 6pm ET, then likely dinner and some time with my daughter. I should be back some point between 8:30 and 9 however.

[Alan T]

Bottom line, no you have not stood up and waved a sign during the game saying "Hey guys, I am a demon". But no one else has done so either. Since there has not been a demon yet with risk of a lynch vote (Hannibal vs Telle day 1 and Telle vs RealDeal day 2), the voting behavior does not tell us a ton either.

So you have to go to the next level and look at player behavior, how they voted, when they voted, why they voted. What the conversations they made or tried to make were. I illustrated my points earlier why you were bugging me based on how you were behaving and how it is 180 degrees different from your normal play as a "Vanilla Villager". So based on your deviation from standard behavior, you seem like a quality choice to consider for the vote at least.

[Passacaglia]

Pass is starting to make me scratch my head. Following Telle's "reveal" he was all for lynching her and tried to get me to switch my vote to her. He couldn't vote that day because he had already submitted his work actions, but why not vote for her on the next day? If you're so sure that her reveal was fake, why put in the early work actions again to handicap yourself from voting? I understand needing to get your actions in early in case you can't check in prior to deadline, but I would at least leave myself the option to vote if I need to. Place a work action and keep your second action in reserve. Saying that you think Telle was lying and then to not vote for her (after trying to get someone to switch their vote to her the previous day) or even vote at all, is very odd to me.

I'm back! I read this at work, but couldn't post, but wanted to reply. I'm going to answer this next.

[Danny]

Catching up, will reply to any posts along the way I see.

[Danny]

RealDeal - DaddyTorgo (380), PackerFanatic (397), Telle (403), Telle (403), jeheinze (437), Jonathan (536)

Telle - Danny (442), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458), RealDeal (458), hoops (495), KWhit (521), Purdue (527), Purdue (527), Alan (538), Alan (538), Render (543)


Walls - Pass(282)

Carpentry - Danny(443), Packer(339), Tyrith(419), Tyrith(419), jackal (469), KWHit (521), Jonathan (564), CR (567)

artwork - Hoops(315), Jackal(318), Daddy T (512), Render (543), CR (567)

Roof – Pass


OK, that is the final tally from yesterday. I'm going to work on putting together the old "vote/unvote" grid to see what jumps out. I know RendeR was on RD early and was in position to have the "longest held vote" for the tie-breaker before he switched.

Tie-breaker is not longest held vote, its mean vote. So if the votes are Telle then 5 for Render and then 4 for Telle, Render would be lynched.

[Passacaglia]

I'm not sure what the meta-gamey comment means. CR worked on the walls and left early, but I don't think that makes him more likely to be the saboteur. And I know you can't respond now, but maybe someone else can take the torch for you. Anyway, I don't think we can rule out two single saboteurs, or someone faking one work but succeeding the second time. So I'm looking at CR, PB, RD, Telle, RendeR, and Alan.

I'm still suspicious of Telle's reveal. It was made SO close to deadline, it's like she was hoping no one would be around to counter. And it's not a 24-hour clock, so she had no chance of avoiding a wolf kill by waiting. Also, in Cathedral I there were some rules where people couldn't say things -- for example, last game, cronin was Gabriel, and knew that Anxiety was Lucifer, but couldn't tell me (the other angel). There was some other similar rule, which cronin got penalized for disobeying -- maybe it was that he couldn't attack Lucifer? I dunno. Anyway, it could be that the real Gabriel can't say he is Gabriel. Also, Telle said she was St. Gabriel. I'm no Christian, but it's just Gabriel, right? An angel can't be a saint, can he? Then again, BK is no Christian either, so if there's a mistake there, it could be his. On the other hand, I don't recall hearing St. Gabriel when I was an angel last game.

To defend Telle a little, she's probably still alive because the demons aren't that interested in killing Gabriel. Last time, Lucifer knew who Gabriel was, so I imagine he was not allowed to kill him. Plus, the demons want a 1:1 ratio with villagers, so even when I was going nutcakes defending cronin last game, he was fine getting lynched, as long as we didn't lynch a villager. This is something to consider, though -- if we're near endgame and clueless on who to lynch, it might be better to lynch Gabriel instead of a villager. Last game the angels were sorta on our side -- this game we don't know.

Anyway, I'll be following along at work but can't post, and I'm not sure if I will be home by deadline today.

WORK ON WALLS
WORK ON WALLS

If anyone wants to double up on me, I understand.

This is post 282, by me, bolding done just now. Why did I put in an action right away, locking myself in? Like I said, I wasn't sure if I would be able to post again in time for the deadline. I ended up getting back before, but was not sufficiently caught up. In my next post, I will attempt to demonstrate that when I posted this (first thing in the morning yesterday), there was not much heat on Telle, so a vote for her risked being a throwaway. PLUS, this post itself shows pretty clearly IMO that I was leaning toward not believing Telle, but not sure of it.

[Danny]

I'm confused Danny, I thought discussion was leaning towards the fact that the demons likely knew Telle was the cultist. Wouldn't they be less inclined to vote for her?

Pretty much what Alan said. I didn't have much time to go over things too closely before I left, but I think it is likely there is a demon with a vote on Telle.

The others probably went to work like Alan said.

[Danny]

Trying to tie together various actions of unknowns and knowns , one thing that jumped out at me was:

Telle as the cultist knew who the demons were, the demons did not know who the cultist was. When there were suddenly two different people stating that Telle was lying, the demons had to assume that she was the Cultist. Did Telle try to signal anywhere previously? Was there any lines drawn previously?

Day one, the first vote thrown out there was Packerfanatic's vote on Hannibal. Seemingly innocent, first vote no big deal. No one knew Hannibal was the seer, no reason for a big push. Suddenly the second vote of the day also was real quickly thrown on Hannibal by Telle as well.

It was a day that likely was going to get less votewise as many people had already stated they likely were going to use both actions on building instead of voting. So perhaps only 4-5 votes would be needed for a lynch, and Telle's second vote real quick put Hannibal in increasing danger.

The quick second vote on someone doesn't really make much sense for a wolf to do nor a villager to do in most games, and in most games trying to lynch someone from being the second vote on a player ends up in just lynching a villager. This was different however in that Telle was the cultist and possibly was looking for ways to send messages to the wolves.

So what if there was a reason for the quick second vote? It would tell two things, obviously as we know Hannibal is not a demon, but would it tell something to Packerfanatic as well?

Lets look at how Packerfanatic then responded in day 2 when Telle was on the line and two people revealed that she was not Gabriel. Packer was a real quick second vote on RealDeal in a move that didn't really make much sense. We already discussed Render and DaddyTorgo's play there in more depth, but Packerfanatic also either made the same mistake or had some other reason for doing so..


So yeah, it could be completely coincidental how Packer and Telle paired up not only in votes but in how they acted, but there could also be something more to it. Just throwing another name out for discussion here.

Very interesting.

[Passacaglia]

In my opinion, the whole Telle reveal was fishy as hell.

Not really when you consider there would be not one, but two people who KNOW she's lying if she fake revealed.

At least two, but I think 3. I'm guessing based on the last game, there are three angels.

well, it may be a little meta-gamey, but CR picked walls, left early and then we fell 2 units short on the walls.

PurdueBrad was the other person who used both votes for walls.

So either one of them sabatouged us or there are 2 demons who each casted a single vote and sabatouged us.

I think CR is a good place to start looking tomorrow.

Here's some posts between the end of the day we lynched Hannibal and the beginning of the next day. I figured the writing on the wall was saying that a Telle lynch was not going to happen. And I don't think it would have, if not for DT and RealDeal. I *might* have been able to drive a Telle lynch, or at least drive us close enough to make it interesting and learn something, but not when I wasn't sure I'd be home in time for deadline, let alone missing the bulk of the daytime!

Next, my take on some top suspects.

[DaddyTorgo]

fyi everyone - I am on duty tonight for transporting my brother to and fro some stuff. I won't be on until after 9pm. will try to keep up on the thread on my phone but not sure how well I will be able to or if I can post

[Passacaglia]

It is not as much about what we want you to do as it is about what you have already done.

Your reaction yesterday to PurdueBrad was the first thing that tipped me off. I don't know how many people caught his hints (I don't really need a rollcall of those who did and those who didn't), but you are a pretty bright player and to react the way you did to his voting of me seemed off (and was actually opposite of the way I reacted based on the same information seemingly). I have a hard time believing that you missed his hints completely.

Your reaction to the Telle situation yesterday felt to me like someone who was hedging their bets. Really in a win-win situation, you argued the correct side (the mathematical probability of Telle being good), yet did not really commit to it until the "juicy" spot for a vote. As previously discussed the location of your and Kwhit votes both seemed pretty demonish from my point of view, especially for someone who seemed to have decided on their stake in the issue well before the actual vote was cast.

The way that today has played out where you have presented a boatload of information without providing hardly any direct opinions on players feels pretty much like a lawyer trying to bury the opposing side in overload of data so the important pieces kind of get filtered out in the mass storm at some point. It feels very similar to how you have played as a bad guy in the past.

As a good guy, when you do not have an important role you tend to play agressively. You tend to want to push the vote to get people moving even in a game that requires other actions that might conflict with the need for voting (See Spawn 3 game). In this game you have not been taking a hard stance on any vote, and often (as seen in both day 1 and day 2 and even somewhat today) seem to be begging your way out of the vote in a sense to allow others to do the work for you. If you truly did not have a very important role, historically you have used that advantage to try to take a chance, to stir things up to try to see if you can get a pulse on people. That is even more important then ever in a game with the seer already dead and no bodyguard.

So it is not really as much what we want you to do to prove yourself, even though if you have some way of doing so I am all ears.. but more how you have reacted almost every step of this game thus far.

I'll start with hoopsy, since that's the most contentious. My initial impression is that this is typical WW play from Alan -- he usually has some kind of tunnel-vision toward hoops.

Your first point is that he didn't react to PB's hint. I'm willing to give him a pass on that, since no one else followed him on the vote. I think BK's post might have helped to throw people off the radar on it. I know you didn't want a role call, but you can probably tell from my posts this morning that I didn't pick up on it, either.

Your second point is his reaction to the Telle situation. I think this reaction applies to over half of the players in the game -- myself included since I wasn't posting for most of it (but trust me, I was wringing my hands while reading it). Probably the only ones NOT sitting and waiting were Render and RealDeal -- although I think heinz and JE had early votes on RealDeal in, too.

You accuse hoops of posting info with no opinions. I think you're holding him to a higher standard here than everyone else. I think post 644 of his does a decent job of giving some opinions, though I'm not sure what he's trying to say about me in it.

[Danny]

Well, the choices for today look like Jeheinz, Hoopsguy, Pass, Kwhit, or PF.

My vote on Kwhit does not seem likely to be followed up, so he'll probably be out. None of the four remaining strike me as someone I should trust, so my vote is open for any of them.

Still, unless a better case is made for one of the others, I'll likely be voting Hoopsguy because if it's basically a crapshoot between the four, I'd rather see the angels get to use their actions to help us elsewhere.

[Passacaglia]

...so why would Pass skip a wall and go to something that can't be worked on until the walls are done?

I was going to switch to Telle after the events of yesterday unfolded, but two things were against me:

A) She was already going down, and my vote was not really needed to begin with

B) I was under the impression that unvoting voided your work, and when I found out otherwise, it was already too late.

I was just thrown off by how quickly RD was jumping on the Telle bandwagon, but I now obviously see why he was doing so, and my thinkings were off-base.

I am willing to work on walls and it will get done.

hoops and I are working on the walls, so they will be done tomorrow.

I don't know what I believe yet - but if you ARE a demon and fake your work, then we will still complete the work, as I will not be faking.

Next up is PF. Maybe I'm more tuned in to him since he's been coming after me. His first post here throws some accusation my way on something which is pretty obvious IMO that I didn't do -- if I "switched" it would have been in the thread. There's also no post count by my roof work -- it's definitely something done TO me, not BY me.

His next post is some excuse-making about why he voted for RealDeal. Since Telle seemed to think this about the rules, I give him a pass, but it does seem like he's setting himself up to have an excuse for being on the wrong side of that one.

The next post don't inspire any kind of logical argument in me -- they just give me the creeps. He just seems like he REALLY wants us to believe that he'll finish the walls, so the rest of us don't need to worry. Note that when it was just me yesterday, I made no such posturing -- I even welcomed people doubling up on my work.

[Danny]

Next up is PF. Maybe I'm more tuned in to him since he's been coming after me. His first post here throws some accusation my way on something which is pretty obvious IMO that I didn't do -- if I "switched" it would have been in the thread. There's also no post count by my roof work -- it's definitely something done TO me, not BY me.

His next post is some excuse-making about why he voted for RealDeal. Since Telle seemed to think this about the rules, I give him a pass, but it does seem like he's setting himself up to have an excuse for being on the wrong side of that one.

The next post don't inspire any kind of logical argument in me -- they just give me the creeps. He just seems like he REALLY wants us to believe that he'll finish the walls, so the rest of us don't need to worry. Note that when it was just me yesterday, I made no such posturing -- I even welcomed people doubling up on my work.

Some good points here about you seemingly not being responsible for the change in workplace.

[Danny]

Anyone have a summary of actions used for what so far and actions remaining?

[Passacaglia]

Man, this is one of those games where I just feel so less informed than everyone else and I can't catch up. I totally screwed the pooch yesterday letting my emotions of RD's tact get the better of sound judgement.

All I really know if Alan and RD are angels and it's not being disputed. Seeing as that I'm a villager and they're the good guys, I'm inclined to vote with them today.

If work needs to be done, someone just clue me in as to where. I'd be happy to be one of the wall workers (we need 3, right?)

First, it's worth noting that you and Alan are the two people I'm putting the most trust in this game (I said that earlier).

With that said though, I just want to make sure I have this right. Basically you want all of us to vote for hoops, but you guys don't want to do it and you don't want to tell us why we should.

I'm not ruling out that I'd still do it, but uhm, yeah that seems a tad needy :D

Vote hoopsguy

heinz, front and center! I've been suspicious of him most of the game, but looking back, I couldn't find much reason why. His first post here, basically forgoing his vote for the angels, struck me. Then when the angels tell him what to do, he complains about it, but does it anyway. You can already tell from my first two dossiers that I'd rather vote for PF than hoops, so I'm not going to be following the angels, but heinz rates higher than hoops in terms of suspicion as well.

[Passacaglia]

Next up is Passacaglia. Total trust there. I will not be voting for him.

[Danny]

Next up is Passacaglia. Total trust there. I will not be voting for him.

Seems like you two are in bed together, I don't like this one bit. I may have to split my votes amongst each of you.

[Danny]

Hopefully we'll have some more discussion over the next couple hours. It's been really dead for having 14 people still alive since I got home

[Passacaglia]

KWhit I pretty much have no read on. He was on the right side with RealDeal and Telle, but if I recall, the vote was a runaway then, so it's not saying much.

[RendeR]

I got nothin...

[Passacaglia]

Out for the night.

VOTE PACKERFANATIC
VOTE PACKERFANATIC

[Danny]

Any chance Pass volunteered to work on the walls because he knew that a fellow demon had the ability to change his work?

[Danny]

I think I am leaning against voting PF or Kwhit now with a choice between Hoops, Pass and Jeheinz

[Tyrith]

Sigh, this sucks.

[Danny]

And what's interesting is all of Jeheinz, Hoops, and Pass are out for the evening, so I doubt we'll be getting anything else to go on.

[Danny]

Unvote Kwhit
Vote Hoopsguy
Vote Hoopsguy

Again, I might change this if there is more info available, but as it stands, I'd rather the angels get to use some of their actions for things other than voting.

[Danny]

Chief, Jonathan, what are your thoughts?

[Alan T]

The piece I'm really struggling with here is that Alan + RealDeal both seem pretty convinced of the rightness of this action but do not have an argument and are not committing votes to it. Don't get me wrong, I do not want votes today, but it is not like we are having a two way conversation either where they are discussing their suspicion. That might allow me to persuade angels and villagers alike to look in other directions.

Heck, I've changed my mind on my earlier vote. I'll guess that the demons are actually eager to jump on me in this spot. Heinz can always fall back on the "my schedule didn't allow me to get back and change" when it shows up wrong. So I've now convinced myself that he is a more likely demon than The Jackal.

UNVOTE THE JACKAL
VOTE JEHEINZ72

Not sure if you're coming back again tonight, but you had thrown out The Jackal's name a few times more of a namedrop than any kind of real heat but as if trying to set up a case for him and your first instinct seemed to be to vote for him.

You then changed your mind to Jeheinz and I don't quite get why. I would love to understand more reasoning behind it. It seems a flimsy excuse at best. Several times during the day people had made the comment that they were likely going to follow the angels in voting today. You chose to single out Jeheinz however for actually throwing down the vote because he had to leave.

I think it is pretty well known that Jeheinz has a certain schedule and he likely won't be back to defend himself the rest of the evening. There also doesn't seem to be much else to your reasoning other than retaliation on your part.

My gut instinct here is that this vote feels more like a vote for someone who already has their vote on you so as to not drive someone else to vote for you as well (such as the jackal who could move his vote), or one of the other people leading in vote counts. My feelings are that this was just a temporary vote holder on someone that couldn't hurt you any further until you got back later to see where you needed to move your vote to try to save yourself.

Is there more to it then that?

[hoopsguy]

My thoughts are that you are on the wrong guy, although I understand your reasoning for doing so. I should be around for the last hour so I'll be happy to answer any questions from now until then.

[hoopsguy]

Not sure if you're coming back again tonight, but you had thrown out The Jackal's name a few times more of a namedrop than any kind of real heat but as if trying to set up a case for him and your first instinct seemed to be to vote for him.

You then changed your mind to Jeheinz and I don't quite get why. I would love to understand more reasoning behind it. It seems a flimsy excuse at best. Several times during the day people had made the comment that they were likely going to follow the angels in voting today. You chose to single out Jeheinz however for actually throwing down the vote because he had to leave.

I think it is pretty well known that Jeheinz has a certain schedule and he likely won't be back to defend himself the rest of the evening. There also doesn't seem to be much else to your reasoning other than retaliation on your part.

My gut instinct here is that this vote feels more like a vote for someone who already has their vote on you so as to not drive someone else to vote for you as well (such as the jackal who could move his vote), or one of the other people leading in vote counts. My feelings are that this was just a temporary vote holder on someone that couldn't hurt you any further until you got back later to see where you needed to move your vote to try to save yourself.

Is there more to it then that?

My thought is that when I'm a wolf I'm happy to go with the flow of the villagers, try to adapt to the play of the guys who are trusted. When I'm a wolf I don't have the worst voting record and I try not to have the best. I want to be as much in the middle as far as public review goes, and hope that my in thread reputation helps me avoid lynch for one more day. I think Heinz is playing it much the same way in this case.

It is more of an instinctive vote than one that is finely reasoned, and I normally like to rely on logic more than instinct. But I do not have any strong mathematical play to make. I know that you are starting to get the movement you asked for on me. As a "cleared angel" you are going to likely get a pass on it when it is wrong. And that is fine in the context of this game ... I'm not trying to call for some kind of run on the angels. But I would like for us to get a demon and I would like to be alive to be part of it.

Do you want me to bother responding to the posts on the time/accusation stuff? I had several appointments come up this afternoon that I was not able to break away from, even though it would have been convenient for me to do so. I'm not going to try and grind an axe about being able to face my acccusors earlier if you are here now.

[Alan T]

Do you want me to bother responding to the posts on the time/accusation stuff? I had several appointments come up this afternoon that I was not able to break away from, even though it would have been convenient for me to do so. I'm not going to try and grind an axe about being able to face my acccusors earlier if you are here now.

I pretty much said my piece about the time discussion from earlier. I fully understand that people can not be here all of the time. My only point was that I was here and you were not, so it was a bit unfair to call me out for not being here when that was never the case. That said, I would rather keep the next hour of our discussion focused on more game related topics then something like that anyhows. I also would love for the next hour to not only be a back and forth between you and I as it helps me learn nothing about anyone else regardless if I am right or wrong about you.


Now back to the topic on hand, so you feel that a wolf is more likely to jump on a "poor" vote choice then a different option so you are voting for Jeheinz here? Does this mean that you also feel this way about the previous few days votes where as far as the wolves knew Telle, Hannibal and Real Deal were all poor vote choices? Your vote on Jeheinz seems to suggest that you believe a demon would be out front voting early rather then trying to blend in later, or by not voting at all and instead doing work somewhere?

[Alan T]

I think it is only fair after the jeheinz vote question is answered I'll step back a bit and let you try to plead your case with the others. There are plenty of people here now who have not voted that I would love to see in the discussion instead of me dominating it.

You are excellent at talking your way out of jams when you are a bad guy, so it is only sporting for me to give you a chance with everyone here. I'll still be around and will chime in if I feel the need to though.

[Danny]

I'd also love to see more thoughts/posts from CR, Kwhit, and Jonathan, they have all been very quiet this game overall.

[KWhit]

just landed from a very delayed flight. Can someone give me a quick synopsis?

[KWhit]

What's the basic argument against me?

[Danny]

Real Deal and AlanT are angels. They feel strongly that Hoopsguy is a demon, but don't have a scan or anything like that go back it up. They hope to use their actions for spiritual growth as opposed to voting, but will if necessary to ensure Hoops is lynched. The other candidates from today seem to be Jeheinz, Pass, Packer and you (I orignally voted for you this morning, but you should be safe now)

[Alan T]

just landed from a very delayed flight. Can someone give me a quick synopsis?


Kind of tough, everyone has been all over the place. My attempt:

Hoops, jeheinz and packerfanatic all are doing work on the wall, there is only 1 action left to finish however, so that should be completed.

Packerfanatic , Passacaglia and yourself (kwhit) have all been named by several people at times today as people that might get votes. Currently the only votes on you were unvoted however.

RealDeal and myself (two admitted angels) have come out with reasons believeing that we think Hoopsguy is a demon and would like to see a vote on him today but have admitted that it is not based on any fact, but instead our interpretation of his game play thus far.

Hoopsguy is making a case for jeheinz being bad.


That is my attempt at an impartial quick recap as I can...

[KWhit]

any theories on why we still didn't finish the walls?

[Danny]

What's the basic argument against me?

You're pretty much out of the discussion now. My reasoning was I felt there was likely a wolf in the middle to late votes on Telle, all of which were proven good except for you and Hoopsguy.

Still, I'd rather not focus the discussion on you for tonight as you're kind of out the lynch loop right now.

[KWhit]

why do the angels think hoops is bad?

[Alan T]

any theories on why we still didn't finish the walls?

Passacaglia's second action on the wall was "moved" to the roof instead. Barkeep stated that his recap was not a mistake so someone moved it. People have brought up that perhaps Passacaglia was happy to work on the wall knowing that would happen however but no one is really gunning too hard at Passacaglia for only that fact alone.

[KWhit]

You're pretty much out of the discussion now. My reasoning was I felt there was likely a wolf in the middle to late votes on Telle, all of which were proven good except for you and Hoopsguy.

Still, I'd rather not focus the discussion on you for tonight as you're kind of out the lynch loop right now.

works for me.

Anybody have a vote count?

[Danny]

why do the angels think hoops is bad?

His play/posting so far. It's nothing concrete. My reasoning for my vote is #1 Hoops was a part of that group I thought there was likely a demon from and #2 if Hoops is the lynch choice without voted needed from the angels, they can use their actions for other things that can help us.

[hoopsguy]

I do think that wolves will want to build a 2+ person separation if they are not part of the separation. It is hard for me to comment too much on Day 1 as I missed a big portion of it down the stretch. But it had the feel of a very slow march - I do not have any sense of how the wolves approached this day without one of their own on the block (seer/cultist).

Day 2 - I have said that I think the wolves would have wanted to avoid making an attention-raising vote on this day. Double work, or early votes that did not change, seem the easiest way to achieve that goal.

[Chief Rum]

Chief, Jonathan, what are your thoughts?

I am disinclined to think hoops put all that work into that post rundown as a demon. But Alan and Real Deal are proven Angels in my mind. That's what I think.

[Alan T]

works for me.

Anybody have a vote count?


Nothing direct, but keeping track of it in my head I think packerfanatic and Hoopsguy are tied for the lead at 3 right now.

[DaddyTorgo]

well i'm back. raging headache but here. quick summary anyone?