Werewolf CLXVII - The Wheel of Time - Game Over

[timmae]

Sorry, Victory Status:

timmae, zinto, glengoyne and path12: Win by gaining parity with the Light
Narcizo: Loses by failing to kill the Dragon
The Light: Loses by failing to eliminate The Shadow
Tinker: Loses by failing to convert those left to the Way of the Leaf
Factions: All end tied, and fail to reach victory conditions.

Much thanks!!

Autumn/Shoveler, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you set up certain game situations, what went as you thought it could, what was left as a missed opportunity, other possible roads to travel down, etc. I cannot fathom teh time and effort put into this. You have my gratitude!!

[Autumn]

Oh and Britrock had the ability to search for the true Dragon (Grover was a False Dragon). He searched Raven tonight, too little too late, but great fiction for the sequel.

[Autumn]

Much thanks!!

Autumn/Shoveler, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how you set up certain game situations, what went as you thought it could, what was left as a missed opportunity, other possible roads to travel down, etc. I cannot fathom teh time and effort put into this. You have my gratitude!!

I'm sure Shoveler will have plenty to add but we were just bemoaning tonight that not a single item actually was used in the game. So that was a bummer for us as watchers/mods.

[timmae]

Oh and Britrock had the ability to search for the true Dragon (Grover was a False Dragon). He searched Raven tonight, too little too late, but great fiction for the sequel.

Hell yeah! Sign me up!! First in!!

[Raven]

I thought the wolf groupings were either some combo of CW, path, cheeki, glen, or Zinto, Brit, narc, glen.

Honestly, I suck at this game :/.

At least I'm a mother fucking dragon (though I didn't know it until now)! Whatever that means! So I'm curious, what was the role of the dragon?

[cheekimonk]

Two WW games for me and two times my side gets mudstomped. However, timmae' compliments are spot on: we were put in a lot of knife's edge decisions that, by rule, each fell on one person's shoulders. All of those came down in favor of the Dark.

Even with the rout, hard to assess this as a poorly played game. I've learned much being on both sides now.

[timmae]

I have to say... being evil sucks. I could never be a defense attorney I guess... every post was agony in that I had to deceive almost every step of the way. Starting with like my 2nd or 3rd post when font knew. LOL... I also slipped when I asked early on why EF and Font voted jackal without mentioning Zinto who was the middle vote on Jackal. Welcome to WW I guess but this was the first time I played evil.

[Shoveler]

I'm going to let autumn respond, just glad everyone enjoyed the game. I absolutely love this book series and getting everyone talking about the story to piece together what might be going on was a lot of fun for me.

[path12]

What was the deal with the dagger? The description had us afraid to use it or even hold it more than one night.

[Shoveler]

I have to say... being evil sucks. I could never be a defense attorney I guess... every post was agony in that I had to deceive almost every step of the way. Starting with like my 2nd or 3rd post when font knew. LOL... I also slipped when I asked early on why EF and Font voted jackal without mentioning Zinto who was the middle vote on Jackal. Welcome to WW I guess but this was the first time I played evil.

After watching this game from this side I will never trust a word that comes out of your mouth :)

[timmae]

It was soooooooooo quiet the last few days. I kept wanting to post away but needed to stop myself almost every time!

Brit... want to hear your thoughts on no CC... I think I played my claim right but not sure.

[timmae]

After watching this game from this side I will never trust a word that comes out of your mouth :)

LOL... welcome to NK 1 pergatory.

[cheekimonk]

Hell yeah! Sign me up!! First in!!

Oh, hell yes. Give me more of this!! Maybe a vanilla game in the meantime from someone?

[Autumn]

I thought the wolf groupings were either some combo of CW, path, cheeki, glen, or Zinto, Brit, narc, glen.

Honestly, I suck at this game :/.

At least I'm a mother fucking dragon (though I didn't know it until now)! Whatever that means! So I'm curious, what was the role of the dragon?

So in the books hte Dragon is basically the big hero reborn to eventually fight the Dark One. You were unaware of your role until either A) the Blue Ajah sister found you, B) Padan Fain found you (bad news), or C) you were killed or lynched. Any of those would cause you t become aware and to start to channel. If the blue found you, you guys could PM. If you were killed or lynched you would have survived, that one time.

Male channelers in the books all start to go insane, that's why Grover had very little control over what he could do. You would have been in slightly better shape, you would get a random power every night and be able to decide who to use it on.

[Autumn]

What was the deal with the dagger? The description had us afraid to use it or even hold it more than one night.

The dagger is an artifact related to Padan Fain who was an independent character who only had the goal to kill the Dragon. He had the ability to search for the Dragon every night, but could not kill unless he got his hand son his dagger.

The dagger is an item from the books that corrupts those who hold on to it. Anybody who held onto the dagger for a night would have become Corrupted and joined Narcizo's side, gaining the ability to PM him and the goal of killing the Dragon. Zinto and the Aes Sedai could resist the dagger for one night.

[Autumn]

Oh, hell yes. Give me more of this!! Maybe a vanilla game in the meantime from someone?

Definitely. If no one else goes with one, I can throw up a barebones game for next week. And Shoveler and I are already working on a sequel to this one for someday down the line.

[Grover]

I was terrible in this game, sorry guys

[Zinto]

Thanks for running this Autumn and Shoveler. It was a lot of fun.

[Autumn]

The Light almost got some help because Zinto started out with this dagger, and for a bit it seemed the Shadow might hold onto it longer than they should. That could have meant one of the Darkfriends, or more, secretly being turned to Fain's side without the rest of the Shadow knowing. Would have been quite interesting.

[Zinto]

And thanks to my fellow team shadow members for playing a good game

[Autumn]

I was terrible in this game, sorry guys

You and Vaimes both suffered from statistically unlikely luck. No one could believe that you randomly got a power that just happened to save you from a lynch, but that's exactly what happened! Grover just chose a target and we rolled a random roll that said he got the Compel power the next day. then the vote was close enough to actually make it work. Super luck. and then Vaimes really did just randomly choose to rob the Warder moments before the attack. Bad luck!

[Autumn]

And thanks to my fellow team shadow members for playing a good game

Nice game, for sure. the only thing the Shadow failed at, I suppose, was that Zinto needed the Dragon to get his hands on Callandor to unlock it. Thanks for leaving us something for a sequel!

[cheekimonk]

I had Zinto and Narc pegged and was leaning path. Completely whiffed on timmae, obviously, and the "Vaimes Incident" derailed me going after Zinto or Narc on D4. I just couldn't believe the wolves could be that lucky after having the village forced to lose an entire lynch (2 really as Grover had to go on D3) which could have turned out as a double villager lynch. I can imagine you wolves were stunned at all this. You almost had to sit back and let the village calamity snowball.

[Zinto]

The Light almost got some help because Zinto started out with this dagger, and for a bit it seemed the Shadow might hold onto it longer than they should. That could have meant one of the Darkfriends, or more, secretly being turned to Fain's side without the rest of the Shadow knowing. Would have been quite interesting.

Yep. If the PM I got after holding it for a day wasn't so scary I would have kept it. I thought if one of my fellow team members got it they might turn against us.

[timmae]

EF.... want to know more about your vote switching on D1. When you switched to Jackal I almost followed your lead. You had me confused but it helped our cause.

[timmae]

I was terrible in this game, sorry guys

Really... the only bad move that I didn't agree with was your nightfall. All other ideas and tactics were of use to help sniff out the baddies. Any discussion is good discussion for the village. Your activity was a huge plus in my book.

[Shoveler]

The only thing that struck me during the game that we could have either done away with or explained better up front, was the use of compulsion by Grover. Those with knowledge of the books immediately jumped to him as the forsaken, as the light never uses compulsion in the series.

[Zinto]

Yeah Grover don't beat yourself up. I was going to twist whatever you said to make you sound bad and it pretty much worked.

[cheekimonk]

I was terrible in this game, sorry guys

No way, man. You had to save yourself after our bad first night, and we couldn't have interpreted that any way other than that someone saved your ass. You had virtually zero chance of convincing us otherwise.

[timmae]

Really... the only bad move that I didn't agree with was your nightfall. All other ideas and tactics were of use to help sniff out the baddies. Any discussion is good discussion for the village. Your activity was a huge plus in my book.

Take "really" out of my response above... it makes it sound like I am agreeing with you playing bad. It couldn't be further from the truth... you were the scapegoat of good luck by evil.

[cheekimonk]

And the wolves definitely knew that, too, Grover.

[cheekimonk]

timmae, I could have held on to the Ter'Angreal but would have been wolf meat 100%. We were in dire straits so I had no choice but to gamble on you being Light. You played it perfectly...giving me just enough info but not too much. If the Blue Ajah had revealed that might have complicated things (I think I would have held on to the artifact in that case and taken it to my grave).

[Raven]

Yeah but the description of yellow made yellow sound like a bodyguard.
A wolf bodyguard sounded OP, so I also believed that timmae likely wasn't a wolf bodyguard.

[cheekimonk]

Yeah but the description of yellow made yellow sound like a bodyguard.
A wolf bodyguard sounded OP, so I also believed that timmae likely wasn't a wolf bodyguard.

Good point!

[Coffee Warlord]

Yeah, I would a never got timmae.

[Vaimes]

I think I voted him every Day but never really pushed it. ,_,

[Raven]

Thanks for hosting Autumn and Shoveler. Was fun even though we got stomped! ;)

[Glengoyne]

After literally stumbling onto callandor on the night one kill, I wasn't going to pass it on to anyone not on the shadow.

What nationality was Raven? Could the Tairens' have randomly passed it on to him.

By the way some of you on the side of the light did some excellent analysis. The wolves were prominent on the lists of potential baddies.

I'm disappointed that I didn't get to see how Raven's association chart would have played out. I was on every line. Lol. I'm guessing that means that I don't hide very well as a wolf.

[Chief Rum]

Fun game, guys. Thanks for running it. Congrats to the wolves. While luck was certainly on their side, they made sure to capitalize on it.

Someone go get EF. I want to know what the hell he was smoking on Day One with the crappy late seer reveal. He's normally a very strong player, so that was just weird.

Vaimes! Man, you did me in so wrong lol. I know, no way for you to know. I actually played a little more aggressive in this one because I wanted to draw the wolves' attack, knowing they couldn't kill me...when I had the cloak. I was going to make it out like I couldn't be NKd at all, and the wolves would have taken some time to figure out the truth.

One other underrated bit of Shadow luck--Martin and I are 9 time zones apart. We had PM rights but were unable to do much messaging/strategizing at all, since we were rarely in thread together.

[Chief Rum]

Yeah, I would a never got timmae.

Almost lynched him Day One. Instead, we lynched the seer. Go team!

[fontisian]

Yeah, I would a never got timmae.
I would have.

:/

[fontisian]

General thoughts are that we needed to be clearer with information.

Grover, for example, needed to claim his ability up front instead of allowing the no-lynch to happen and also lying about it afterwards. EF needed to claim at least 10 minutes before the lynch.

The Vaimes lynch was also pretty ridiculous. No way does a scum!Vaimes claim to have retrieved the cloak thing after Chief's death.

[MartinD]

Thanks for running the game, Autumn and Shoveler - was a lot of fun to play for the first time in a long time (even if the Light got pretty much every bad break going ;) )

[cheekimonk]

General thoughts are that we needed to be clearer with information.

Grover, for example, needed to claim his ability up front instead of allowing the no-lynch to happen and also lying about it afterwards. EF needed to claim at least 10 minutes before the lynch.

The Vaimes lynch was also pretty ridiculous. No way does a scum!Vaimes claim to have retrieved the cloak thing after Chief's death.

I definitely agree on Grover. I would have been pissed, but it would have been better that I got lynched than no one (and Grover then being lynched the next day pretty much by default).

As far as Vaimes, you're right that dark!Vaimes doesn't claim to have retrieved the cloak from Chief, but if you read back he stumbled into the admission (and only that he stole from Chief...not realizing - hoping no one would notice (?) - that since Chief was the Warder we absolutely knew what item he yoinked). To me at least, it was mostly the idea that there's no way the Dark could be that lucky after Grovergate, then the awkward reveal was the whipped cream that made the pie look that much more irresistible.

[cheekimonk]

Also, in my book, the idea that other, deductive factors should still be validated even after a VERY highly improbable sequence of choices occurs will forever be known as the "Vaimes Postulate". I mean, that led to a triple kill! Think about that...

[Autumn]

Yet at least twice in this game highly improbable things did actually happen, and disbelief over this led to two villager lynches. I would postulate that an overreliance on probability often hurts the village.

[Grover]

By the way, speaking of saying I was the Dragon Reborn, I actually had no idea I was a False Dragon.

[EagleFan]

EF.... want to know more about your vote switching on D1. When you switched to Jackal I almost followed your lead. You had me confused but it helped our cause.

It was for multiple reasons. I was curious about Jackal and wanted to see if anyone jumped on the bandwagon without more than an "I have a feeling" day one post. I also wanted to switch to you late. I was going to scan Jackal that night and was hoping that it would show after my eventual death that I either went hard after him (meaning he read as bad) or completely backed off him (good read).

Too much overthinking things on day one by the village. I would always rather have my vote anywhere but among one of the leads when I am also one of the leads. It gives me a chance to move it late. I had zero reason to suspect Grover so I really only voted him originally out of self defense. If he was the lone leader at that time I would have kept my vote on him.

As for the late reveal, I lost track of the time.

[timmae]

After literally stumbling onto callandor on the night one kill, I wasn't going to pass it on to anyone not on the shadow.

What nationality was Raven? Could the Tairens' have randomly passed it on to him.

By the way some of you on the side of the light did some excellent analysis. The wolves were prominent on the lists of potential baddies.

I'm disappointed that I didn't get to see how Raven's association chart would have played out. I was on every line. Lol. I'm guessing that means that I don't hide very well as a wolf.

I noticed that you were on every line also GG!! Depending on Raven's response I think you would have been the next lynch.

Raven, what analysis went I to your chart??!

[timmae]

I would have.

:/

Yeah... Couldn't chance that! Sorry font!

[Raven]

I noticed that you were on every line also GG!! Depending on Raven's response I think you would have been the next lynch.

Raven, what analysis went I to your chart??!

I made a matrix of everyone left in the game.
Then I looked at voting patterns, and heavy actions that eliminated potential pairings. For example cheeki and Vaimes clearly weren't paired based on their actions yesterday. Day 3 screwed us because the unanimous run on Grover revealed little for the village.

[JAG]

Yet at least twice in this game highly improbable things did actually happen, and disbelief over this led to two villager lynches. I would postulate that an overreliance on probability often hurts the village.

I've been involved in a couple of those. I had a feeling it wasn't going to work out for the village when reading along.

[Raven]

Also, I wanted to post it right at the 10 PM deadline, so wolves couldn't use it as part of their NK strategy. Because if we survived another day, I thought they'd NK one of yesterday's active participants. Scrambling to post it by 10, while feeding and entertaining a 4 month old baby was tough :P

[timmae]

I think the shadow was aided by a few time relayed items. EFs D1 end... Jackals D1. Martin/CR. We lucked out on a lot.

[path12]

I felt most bad at jumping on Grover like I did, but it was just too good a break not to use.

[cheekimonk]

I don't think anyone, village or wolf, can feel bad for jumping on Grover. If he had come out and said he saved his own ass it would be different, but that "thank you to whoever saved me" post was the nail, Gorilla glue, and dirt on his coffin. I get that he wanted to hide that he was potentially the Dragon Reborn, but there is no choice but to instaclaim after something like that.

[The Jackal]

Awesome game, sad that I died so early but heck of a game for the shadow. Can't wait for the sequel!

[Autumn]

I definitely hope people are willing to give it another whirl. Tehre are a lot of other themes and mechanics Shoveler and I have thought of, and a lot of stuff that just never happened in this version. The next ones(s) will probably work very differently, but with of course similar fiction. I hope to do a better job describing the world next time for those who don't know the books.

[Chief Rum]

Actually, as I said at the start, I never got into these books because of the length of the series (and my understanding that there was more than a little meandering in the storylines). Your description of the world seemed pretty rich and interesting to me, and actually has me considering reading the series.

[britrock88]

Glad I got at least something done for good (finding the Dragon was a secondary goal for the Aes Sedai). I lucked into it with a positive read, basically.

Timmae, I'll answer your question when I get a chance to do some re-reading. Still hate that I was basically out of pocket for half of this game.

[Narcizo]

Actually, as I said at the start, I never got into these books because of the length of the series (and my understanding that there was more than a little meandering in the storylines). Your description of the world seemed pretty rich and interesting to me, and actually has me considering reading the series.

I bought the first one to see.

Thanks for running the game Autumn, sorry I missed a day.

[Autumn]

Yeah, I think from the game you can get an idea of the interesting world Jordan created, and we didn't really get into the characters, but there are good characters too. I think the series goes off the rails pretty harshly after book seven--he was clearly in need of a better editor and a less hurried/tolerant publisher. To the point that if I reread the series I would probably skip a couple books, honestly, in that period, because not much happens and they're frustrating to read.

But on the other hand, I would honestly consider rereading the series, despite that. Luckily he wrote such an interesting series through book 7 that you're already hooked enough to put up with a lot. In my mind, Jordan is the George Lucas of fantasy novels, where you have to credit him with a world and characters which absolutely have hooked people, yet you kind of wish he had gotten some help in execution.

[britrock88]

Timmae, I'll answer your question when I get a chance to do some re-reading. Still hate that I was basically out of pocket for half of this game.

Huh. I think all of the potential forum tools for re-reading players' posts individually are disable here. Anyone care to correct me?

[Glengoyne]

Yeah, I think from the game you can get an idea of the interesting world Jordan created, and we didn't really get into the characters, but there are good characters too. I think the series goes off the rails pretty harshly after book seven--he was clearly in need of a better editor and a less hurried/tolerant publisher. To the point that if I reread the series I would probably skip a couple books, honestly, in that period, because not much happens and they're frustrating to read.

But on the other hand, I would honestly consider rereading the series, despite that. Luckily he wrote such an interesting series through book 7 that you're already hooked enough to put up with a lot. In my mind, Jordan is the George Lucas of fantasy novels, where you have to credit him with a world and characters which absolutely have hooked people, yet you kind of wish he had gotten some help in execution.

If you do audio books, I listened to books 8 through 11. They were almost painless to listen to. Well painless compared to reading them I stopped reading at book 9 or 10 the firstly time through, and the audio books got me through.

Thank goodness brandon sanderson came along and saved the series