Is this Cheese

[Ramminyou]

Quote: Originally Posted by cr00v

Yes, it is cheese. Just because it's easy to stop doesn't mean it isn't cheese. For these kinds of opponents, I usually alter the formation subs and put my fastest players at DE so I could get pressure on him, and like someone else said, drop 8-9 into coverage. All in all, I wish EA could stop this somehow. After you drop back out of the pocket, they should make it impossible to pass. Does anyone else agree with this? I think it's a brilliant idea. It would force everyone to stay in the pocket, set their feet, and read the defense resulting in a much more realistic gameplay/final score.

I think it's a terrible idea. The solution to this kind of stuff isn't to put false barriers on users to play a certain way that conforms to subjective claims of "realism." If someone wants to play in a "cheesy" way that doesn't exploit a glitch or tangible design flaw, then they should be able to do it without restriction. Hey, if a user wants to drop back 15 yards and get sacked or intercepted nearly every time, more power to them. QBs in real life don't suddenly forget how to pass simply because they drop back too far. The reason they don't drop back out of the pocket on their own is because they have to throw the ball farther and are at risk of getting smashed by the defense. As I've already said, I think this game actually simulates that danger quite nicely. So no, I don't think users should be forced to stay in the pocket to pass just because you want them to. As I say anytime suggestions like this are made, this idea actually provides for less realism than what is present now

[RynoAid]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ramminyou

I think it's a terrible idea. The solution to this kind of stuff isn't to put false barriers on users to play a certain way that conforms to subjective claims of "realism." If someone wants to play in a "cheesy" way that doesn't exploit a glitch or tangible design flaw, then they should be able to do it without restriction. Hey, if a user wants to drop back 15 yards and get sacked or intercepted nearly every time, more power to them. QBs in real life don't suddenly forget how to pass simply because they drop back too far. The reason they don't drop back out of the pocket on their own is because they have to throw the ball farther and are at risk of getting smashed by the defense. As I've already said, I think this game actually simulates that danger quite nicely. So no, I don't think users should be forced to stay in the pocket to pass just because you want them to. As I say anytime suggestions like this are made, this idea actually provides for less realism than what is present now

the problem with this comes when the game doesn't accurately reflect the punitive aspects of doing these type of un-sim tactics. In the real game no one does it because it's physically impossible to run backwards and contort your body to throw on your back foot, falling backwards and complete 60% of your passes like you can in NCAA.

[Ramminyou]

Quote: Originally Posted by RynoAid

the problem with this comes when the game doesn't accurately reflect the punitive aspects of doing these type of un-sim tactics. In the real game no one does it because it's physically impossible to run backwards and contort your body to throw on your back foot, falling backwards and complete 60% of your passes like you can in NCAA.

A) I don't see it happening that often at all. I almost never see anyone dropping back and throwing deep off the back foot and complete passes that often. Not against me anyway. And I've thrown more than enough INTs when throwing deep routes before getting set, even on default sliders, to know it's not all that effective of a strategy. When I see players dropping back "too" deep and completing passes, they are at least set when they throw. If anything, the problem has more to do with the DB coverage AI than QB accuracy, but that's another argument.

B) The fix for this problem, if it existed, would be to decrease QB accuracy when throwing in awkward positions, not that a QB should become completely ineffective just because he drops back too far regardless of the throw mechanics, which is the implication of the suggestion I was replying to. So I'm not sure how your post applies to the argument at all.

[RynoAid]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ramminyou

So I'm not sure how your post applies to the argument at all.

I never said i agreed with his proposition to resolve it, i just stated that the game doesn't present an accurate representation of the real physical challenges a player faces when dropping back in an unrealistic manner in real football.

anyways....

[Ramminyou]

Quote: Originally Posted by RynoAid

I never said i agreed with his proposition to resolve it, i just stated that the game doesn't present an accurate representation of the real physical challenges a player faces when dropping back in an unrealistic manner in real football. anyways....

But your point was about actual throwing mechanics. The post I was replying to was about dropping back too far out of the pocket. The two are mutually exclusive, even if they are present together at times. If one had time, a QB could perform a perfectly executed throw from 20 yards behind the line of scrimmage. But the poster I was referring to seemed to suggest you shouldn't be allowed to do that because it's unrealistic for a real life QB to even get that chance. I don't disagree with that, I just disagree with his method of fixing the problem. Plus, I believe that, fortunately, this game makes it hard to do that anyway. I'm just not sure how your post addressed my comments.

[RynoAid]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ramminyou

But your point was about actual throwing mechanics. The post I was replying to was about dropping back too far out of the pocket. The two are mutually exclusive, even if they are present together at times. If one had time, a QB could perform a perfectly executed throw from 20 yards behind the line of scrimmage. But the poster I was referring to seemed to suggest you shouldn't be allowed to do that because it's unrealistic for a real life QB to even get that chance. I don't disagree with that, I just disagree with his method of fixing the problem. Plus, I believe that, fortunately, this game makes it hard to do that anyway. I'm just not sure how your post addressed my comments.

my point was distance from the line of scrimmage and throwing mechanics... but whatever, im not arguing with you... im sure you can fine someone who will indulge you though.

[Ramminyou]

Quote: Originally Posted by RynoAid

my point was distance from the line of scrimmage and throwing mechanics... but whatever, im not arguing with you... im sure you can fine someone who will indulge you though.

I agree that it's probably for the best that you divorce yourself from the discussion until you actually address the point I was responding to rather than responding with indirect complaints about a separate issue.

[cr00v]

I was a bit tipsy when I made that post, but frankly I'm sticking with it. Since apparently a lot of people still want the cheese, how about this:

- EA creates a hardcore mode, where you're able to drop back 15 yards, consistently go for it on fourth down, etc. Leave Hardcore mode to the cheesers, and let them do what they please there. I remember Madden 09 had this, and it was beautiful. All of the cheesers stayed on HC, although there was a good amount of them in the regular mode as well, which brings me to my point...

- The regular 'Play Now' mode should be dedicated to simulation football. They should not allow the QB to see the receivers if they do the 17 step drop. They could simply erase the icons, and tilt the camera down to where you make it impossible to throw the deep ball/post. I'll admit that I was a bit harsh by saying they shouldn't be allowed to throw at all, but there should definitely be some kind of barrier. They shouldn't be REWARDED by seeing the entire field and having more time.

As for scrambling horizontally, that's fine since it's realistic, but they should be blind to the other side. Seems like a simple enough solution.