Let me demonstrate to you '17's Realism

[Sneaky Deaky]

The more I play the demo, the more I feel tactics are not enough as a simple "fix" for the AI; when the tactics work, the game plays fantastic! When they don't work, it's a frustrating experience.

I played Sounders vs Tigres and it was a long ball fest, they even hit a perfect curving through ball that swept around my defense that was lovely to watch. But then I tried the default long ball tactic for Gamba Osaka, as Real Madrid, and they didn't hit a single long pass or cross the whole match.

I think formation is also going to be very important in dictating the AI's play. Tactics, sliders, formations, instructions and player ID will all come into play this year, which I actually think is a good thing; but it means an awful lot of work, lots of testing, lots of long nights.

And I can see why people are disappointed by that; the game really should play great straight out of the box, it doesn't seem like too much to ask after 23 years, but we're constantly having to spend weeks/months on sliders alone trying to bring the best out of these games every year and I imagine there are plenty of people who are just sick of it.

But TBH, I personally don't mind putting in that time, even if it's only just following the slider thread week in week out, if it means in the long run I get a good football game that I can play for the next 12 months. I need my football fix, every year, especially around christmas. I'm with this game for the long haul and if I have to take some time and effort, and make some sacrifices and compromises, to bring out the best in the engine and gameplay that we have, then it's worth it for me in the end.

That is the hand we have been dealt.

And Hell, I used to spend weeks, maybe months, editing PES back in the day when I never had access to option files. We have always been editing our football games in one way or another for decades now.

And I really believe Fifa 17 will be worth it, because when everything came together in some of the matches I had in the beta, it was quite honestly the best game of football I've played in years. At least since Fifa 14 for me, but it has a lot more going for it than that game.

[Nephilim]

Quote: Originally Posted by larma

Honestly I shouldn't have to adjust my game to make the CPU be less broken. I feel like this is just making excuses for a poor rendition of football. There shouldn't be a right way to play. The AI should punish you for playing "wrong" by being better on the pitch, not by cheesing and playing a horrible game. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To me OP video looks like light training session of low level teams. Coutios play, letting cpu keep the ball etc. It's like how you play against little kids when teaching them play on the field - you are intentionally not to destroying them.
That's not what I expect from CPU opposition, whatsoever.

[larma]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nephilim

To me OP video looks like light training session of low level teams. Coutios play, letting cpu keep the ball etc. It's like how you play against little kids when teaching them play on the field - you are intentionally not to destroying them. That's not what I expect from CPU opposition, whatsoever.

Exactly. It seems like you have to have house rules in place to get any sort of decent game out of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[xicpanad]

When I red the first post, it reminded me so much of my first experinces with Fifa 15. I bought my X1 because of this great looking game. PES was nowere near all the bells and whistles Fifa had to offer.

I also wrote lots of posts trying to convince people that the game wasn´t as bad as they were saying, and it wasn´t. Played properly, the game had wonderfull moments. It had its flaws, but it was possible to have fun with it, if you could see past those flaws.

Then, Fifa 16 came out. I wasn´t thinking in geting it, but my shared Xbox account friend bought it, and I played the hell out of it. Final conclusions? Better than Fifa 15 for sure, but the overall mechanics, CPU mentality, etc... still the same, maybe a bit disguised, but... Still PES wasn´t offering a solid experience, and Fifa was. Not realistic, but fun and solid.
Though I think everyone has to agree that Fifa is programed to give us that edge, the emotionaly driven story in career mode, like a novel, creating dramatic moments here and there, wich start to feel a bit stale and repetitive after a couple seasons on career mode.

To be honest, it started to bored me long ago, but it was still the best I had for a soccer virtual experience.

Now, PES came out surprisingly good, nailing all the things I always criticized in Fifa. Fifa 17 demo also came out, I tested, and the day I did I got the deja vu feeling from the past two editions. Looks great, feels good, plays the same... exactly the same, despite some minor changes here and there. I have to work my way up always with the same style, I have to defend always with the same style. I can´t think of any reason to spend extra money for such a small update from Fifa 16.

Yesterday I thought "let´s play another session of FIfa demo..." but as soon as I started my X1, PES was already fired up from the last session, so I played it just for one match... then another... then another... End of the day and didn´t even fired up Fifa. That must mean something.

[Introspectah]

Right, to all of those interested in my veritable intentions, my take behind all of this, and the perspective which has engendered all of this writing, what follows is a summary of responses to numerous people, [responses] which won't always exclusively pertain to personal disputes or discussions, but will touch upon the most poignant questions which naturally arose upon my unintentionally confusing earliest messages, which Matt10 has rightly so challenged in their obscurity.

(aware the sound of the above may also not come across too well for most readers but, hey, please give me break, i'm writing all of this out at breakneck speed so don't think i'm ruminating over this that much as to come across more erudite or what not.

Yes, i must admit that a natural tendency to write aesthetically, at least according to my taste, wields my hands, yet by no means does that mean i'm trying to make more of my self, or make my self appear far superior over anybody else.

I can mix it up, and will try to word it all as simply as possible, yet i apologies beforehand if from time to time i slip up and get all artistic with the 'board.
It's all spontaneous though.


@bredfan:

Quote:

Not for nuthin', but when I hear things like adaptive AI, I read it as "how much the CPU is allowed to cheat to keep you interested".

That's basically it, right.

When you get down to the bottom of it, and really understand how the AI's programmed to function, a sickening realization forms, which shatters all hopes for a random game.

After having been overcome by this realization earlier this year, i started to take an approach to this game with a chess player's mentality, still adoring and longing to establish a most realistic gameplay.

Now i understand and have come to grips with something most people, understandably so, had expected EA to change.

Don't get me wrong, fellas, i understand every one of your gripes with this fundamentally **** game. (that is, if you expect the AI to perform realistically without the proper feedback it requires to feed off on)

All i intented to set straight is the many reviews that flat out stated the CPU will not make a single foul, will always have awefully high pass accuracy, will display no legitimate urge to attack prolifically, or will always string an aweful amount of laser-beam passes together, and so on and so forth,....

All of these arguments i can rebuke by means of footage.
Hence the main purpose of starting up this thread was to show y'all the other side to your claims, and to demonstrate how your own approach to the game directly influences how the AI will adjust itself to you.

Y'all really need to realize this if you want to get something precious out of this game, which it definitely has to offer.

Now i see this like a market stall which might appeal to some at first glance, which offers in its catalogue a hidden gem tucked within a basket underneath a small blanket which might lure the interest of some, while repel others.

But once you undertake the willingness to set aside your own pride when it comes to attending to your interests or fulfilling your predefined expectations, you might get to have a good look at this gem, perhaps even purchase it.

Sadly, the analogy doesn't hold entirely true as in this case it isn't as simple as unconvering the gem and purchasing it straight-away, as FIFA; like the true representation of football it has potential (as footage demonstrates, with its deficiencies of course) to be, requires of people to become professional in their approach first! before they/we go expecting of the game to deliver us something we are meant to get out of it our selves.

Velocityy:

As i mentioned up above, it is not my intention to obfuscate the essence of my message.
What is the case is that i have a natural tendency for flamboyance in my writing, definitely borne out of a yearning to distinguish my self from the crowd as an eccentric individual.

No doubt i've contemplated the necessity of this urge of mine for quite some times, as part of my profession includes expressing my self through online writing, so it's definitely something i'm still working on, but which doesn't just serve a superficial purpose like boosting my self-esteem or something.

Rest assured, though, if i notice most people simply don't get what i mean, or, as i more commonly perceive, if they prematurely prevent themselves from continuing to read because they disfavour overcoming the internal obstacle formed by feeling this sense of arrogance or superiority emanating from my post; something which they cannot or would not want to reconcile with, then, for sure, i will attempt to simplify my self-expression to the best of my ability.

(yet as you see above, i cannot help my self most of the time, and won't correct my self either, because you can't rewind in physical conversation either.)

Quote:

yet i do have ample trust in the adequacy of your cognitive faculties to discern the most essential points of my spontaneous delivery of ample insight. I'm not an idiot, I know what this means, but why not just say 'I trust you'll understand'?? ...

Because, for such a long time, i've been feeling this yearning to contradict culturally popular sayings and norms, as i have come to observe how so many people just mindlessly repeat the same sayings without giving it their own spin.

Not that i want to demolish everyone's integrity for doing that, it's just that it don't sit right with me.
For such a long time i've felt this need to express my idiosyncratic nature through thought and verbal expression, and the many other ways in which i tend to express my self.

So, don't get it wrong, the sentence you copied and pasted was written most spontaneously.
Not like i thought it over and asked my self, ''right, now how am i going to word this differently?''
It just comes naturally to me by now.

Quote:

Anyway, watching your vids, you switch players like a madman. Is that part of your point of trying to position everyone correctly?

Correct, finally someone has confessed to have noticed one of the pivotal points of this revolutionary approach which i intended to demonstrate as proof for ''the other side'' of utilizing the game's possibilities to the full.

Finally!

Give it some thought, whoever reads this and is interested in developing a most realistic approach to a football game.
Hadn't it ever dawned on you how we've for such a long time been awefully limited in controlling only one player, 2 or at most 3, while trying to make something work?

But aren't we supposed to be the manager in control of the whole team?
Then how could one possibly succeed in controlling the positioning of more than 1 or 2 players at once?

Well, the short of it implies that you need to switch players as many times as you see the CPU controlled player switch his aim.
Study the movement of a CPU controlled player thoroughly---why not under guidance of my footage, though it's not required of course---and you'll get to see how often it ever so subtly touches the ball in a particular direction, intending to either go or pass hence.

Now i'm not saying you need to switch as madly rapidly as you see me doing there, as there are some clear disadvantages to that, which i still need to work on (namely, that sometimes you switch too rapidly to another player which is currently out of the range required to contain the opponent), all i'm intending to show and prove is that ideally, as a manager of a whole team, you need to start controlling more of your players more often, at once, so that you can continuously finetune your defensive organization.

That is the crux of the matter here.

Fack up your defensive organization and you'll get to see the AI make fun of you (on legendary at least) in the most repugnant ways it has been catalogued by our minds to do.

We all know how facked up the AI can be, and i'm totally with all of youse on that, yet i know there's a way to get a proper game going, and it all starts with your self, not the AI.

That's the short of it, at least.

My aim in responding to all of your comments is to finetune my thoughts along the way so as to make them more intelligible to the average reader, and so as to get my message fully across.


To be continued.

[Introspectah]

@Gnemi

Quote:

I know what I'm feeling and seeing with the FIFA 17 demo and it's simply appalling to me.

I empathize and understand why you're seeing what you see.

As you'll get to see in the latest message i composed, your accountability in the reality you perceive on the screen is much larger than you have made your self believe.

Your influence on the way the AI plays is much larger than you think.

Ask your self---why not rewatch your footage like i've done multiple times to get a better understanding of my deficiencies---; ''in what kind of form does the way i play make the AI perform the way it does?''

It's not that much of a complicated question, but how many people really question their selves in this regard?

Truly?

What you put out, is what you get, all may it come in distorted, disjointed or apparantly unrelated form.

The AI is like a tabula rase with a wide array of precalculated reactional measures to take, and possible methods to rely on, as soon as human intelligence in the form of a human opponent is introduced; yet it'll only take out as much measures needed to counter/neutralize you.


I've seen it myself, along my journey spanned across this season, in which i gradually started develop my gameplay into one of masterful prowess, dare i say, (though i still confess to my intrinsic weakness), and as i started to develop a more solid defensive organization; develop a more creative approach to offense; and began to develop a much greater, skillful build-up, the EA started enhancing its performance likewise.

And furthermore, as i developed myself into a much more capable version of the player i intend to be, i suddenly began to notice how the EA relied much less frequently on its well-known repugnant tactics as i had significantly reduced the amount of areas in which the gaps in my team could be exploited or made fun of.

Though, make no mistake, the AI will always remain as unfair as it has been programmed to be (unwittingly or not), yet experience has shown to me that if you do your utmost best to continuously enhance your gazmeplay to the best of your ability, the AI will start to reward you in the form of starting to play as realistically as you do.

Please, get this fellas.
Reflect on this.

If FIFA's meant or at least if we expect it to deliver us a veridical reflection of the game we all love---all as much, or are some out looking for quick fix or diversion?---then wouldn't it be logical for this game to require of us first to attain a level of professionalism before we can expect to see a truthful game out on the pitch?

Sadly, the AI hasn't been programmed like a fair, intrinsically flawed opponent yet, ask your self, if you'd be an amateur team playing against a first division team, would it take you seriously? Would it play realistically against you at all times?
Or would it take the piss, and just muck about, to the point where it may look as if they're cheating because they have a much greater arsenal of resources to draw from?

Now the AI definitely does cheat, and, yes, it is programmed as a faultless machine, hence it'll never make a mistake without a proper reason, as usually the mistakes it makes in the form of purposefully inaccurate passing have been made with the intent to give you a second shot after having foolishly facked up a good build-up you were constructing, for instance.
(also to be seen in a few games i posted, against Tigres, most notably, i reckon)

Now i could write a book on the topic, fellas (not to boast but to give an idea of what sort of feedback i could be giving to players who are genuinely willing to take a good look at theirselves first before pointing the finger at an AI which just reflects your own level of competence. Sadly, the way in which it does is blatantly unfair, and acts more like an intolerant trainer who finds that you rather should be hitting a brick wall a 1000 times before coming to realization on your own, instead of actually leading your hand along the way, which it should, by showing you with pin-point clarity where you need to improve, without so painfully and so sordidly punishing the player in the vile ways it has been known to do.....examples aplenty) but i have to constrain my self, otherwise i'll just be writing much too much.

By all means though, everybody reading this, be as blunt as most of you have so pleasantly expressed your self, as i like a good intensity in criticism so i can realize how i should improve my manner of expression so as to be more efficient in communicating my ideas to you.

As Matt10 said, and not to brag or boast here, he believes i'm onto something, and frankly---trying to speak rather objectively here---i must say that i know for sure i've found the key (for my self at least) to minimizing the AI's wickedness to the best of my ability, yet some things will never change, as the most notorious managers of the slider community must also have realized by now.

Still, props to y'all, really.

[nunogomes]

Quote: Originally Posted by Introspectah

By all means though, everybody reading this, be as blunt as most of you have so pleasantly expressed your self, as i like a good intensity in criticism so i can realize how i should improve my manner of expression so as to be more efficient in communicating my ideas to you.

Ok, being as blunt as possible:

You apply "house rules" in your play, in an attempt to mask the "unmaskable": CPU offense is dumb as brick, and 99% of the time poses no real danger/intention to score.

Last year, in Matt´s videos (and i told him that) i thought that the way he defended got the best results from CPU offense, BUT, he wasn´t intentionnaly trying to mask anything, it was his way of defending. You are definitely not as unbiased as he was...

[Introspectah]

Quote: Originally Posted by BL8001

The cpu keeper still kicks the ball down the middle of the pitch 99% of the time. It's been doing this for 23 years.

Would you be willing to muster to courage to contemplate your involvement in this?
Maybe there's good reason why it decides to send a ball straight in there?
Maybe cause you've proven to the AI to be sheyet at header duels?

No offense, mate, just look into your self more earnestly, as the GK usually plays short in my experience, yet mixes it up from time to time with a long ball here and there.