Make Grappling Great Again

[EarvGotti]

I've been off of the game for a good while and just starting playing again. First off let me say that the game is sooooooooo much better now. It's in a really good state and the improvements to grappling have been great.

However, I feel like there's still a lack of damage/ground and pound in the ground game. Besides Crucifix and Half guard....which positions can you really implement effective ground and pound? Mount is still easy too get out of without taking damage....full guard does no damage, side control elbows give decent damage but its very hard to stay there.

To sum it up i feel like the ground game still isn't dangerous enough. The improvement to submissions was a good change but i still feel like its not quite there yet. I would like to see more 3-4 stage SUBs. Maybe when the opponent stamina is low, a normal 5 gate SUB would change to 3 gate? Not sure its that possible to add but im just throwing out ideas.

With judging the way it is and control not scoring anything, i think we need more options to finish the fight on the ground. Maybe some of the grappling vets can chime in and correct me if im off about anything. But i just feel like the ground game still isn't dangerous enough. Especially after watching Khabib manhandle Conor and finish him....i think the game should do a better job making grappling a dangerous aspect of the game.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

It does need a lot of work, but I don't know if I agree with some of these points. Depends on what kinda damage you mean.

In general, subs gates have to go all together. It's not even a good representation of a fighter vs fighter sub struggle mechanic at all. With timed gates, every standard armbar, gullotine, triangle, darce and etc all takes the exact same amount of time to complete. We need subs that can be snapped in and won or lose in a couple of seconds or sometimes nearly a minute. Now, gates can possibly work if the timer is removed and its all stamina driven but it might need to be unseen as well. This also adds the element of players making the decision of, "do I want to hold on to this sub and burn myself out or keep holding on hoping the opponent gives up?" If you get a sub in too early against a fresh fighter with better sub defense than your sub offense, that should be the scenario in most cases.

Damage from GnP is in a good place as far as realism goes. It needs more layers defensively & offensively, but it should take some work to end a fight from gnp, most wrestlers use it to open up for subs which is something I'd like to see focused on more in the next game.

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[foo55]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheGentlemanGhost

We need subs that can be snapped in and won or lose in a couple of seconds or sometimes nearly a minute. Now, gates can possibly work if the timer is removed and its all stamina driven but it might need to be unseen as well. This also adds the element of players making the decision of, "do I want to hold on to this sub and burn myself out or keep holding on hoping the opponent gives up?" If you get a sub in too early against a fresh fighter with better sub defense than your sub offense, that should be the scenario in most cases. Damage from GnP is in a good place as far as realism goes. It needs more layers defensively & offensively, but it should take some work to end a fight from gnp, most wrestlers use it to open up for subs which is something I'd like to see focused on more in the next game. Sent from my SM-J700P using Operation Sports mobile app

First point about subs being quick or long, isn’t that the difference between a 2 gate and 5 gate submission?

Second point about gnp leading to subs, isn’t that what everyone’s trying to do already? I try to advance to put my opponent in precarious positions that he must transition out of because of my gnp. That’s when I’m looking to deny and get a stamina edge to look for a sub.

And on the note about giving up on subs, I’m pretty sure if this isn’t something that you’ve considered then you might want to. If you are in a dominant position and go for a sub that’s a lost cause the opponent can wait until later gates to escape because it will put them in a dominant position. I’ll let go early if I have to just so I don’t give up top



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[TheGentlemanGhost]

Quote: Originally Posted by foo55

First point about subs being quick or long, isn’t that the difference between a 2 gate and 5 gate submission? Second point about gnp leading to subs, isn’t that what everyone’s trying to do already? I try to advance to put my opponent in precarious positions that he must transition out of because of my gnp. That’s when I’m looking to deny and get a stamina edge to look for a sub. And on the note about giving up on subs, I’m pretty sure if this isn’t something that you’ve considered then you might want to. If you are in a dominant position and go for a sub that’s a lost cause the opponent can wait until later gates to escape because it will put them in a dominant position. I’ll let go early if I have to just so I don’t give up top Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your stamina before starting the sub is the only thing that actually effects sub advantage. Strikes don't really have a purpose in setting up subs. Denials are the key, not strikes. EA MMA had it purposely implemented to make striking open up for subs, THEN finish with GnP if all else fails. It's not exactly built that way in EA UFC.

Isn't every specific sub the same gate count? If I use Souza and preform a rnc, it doesn't change gate count if I use it in round one in the opening minute compared to the 4th rd and I have more stamina than the opponent, does it? Either way, having 4 sec gates and seeing how many chances you have to escape kills the immersion of a struggle that can end any moment. You can't really make stamina matter during the act if each gate is only going to last for 4 seconds anyway.

That last point has been considered a borderline exploit by some of people lol. But I'm purely talking about the lack of stamina being a factor, the predictability, and lack of actually having a 1 on 1 struggle with this sub system. Stamina should be effected DURING subs and we should be able to choose to pace ourselves to preserve stamina while risking losing the sub battle or use more stamina to try to finish. Stamina is not accounted for during subs and thats a big fault and we've seen this done properly before. Timed gates are a step backwards.

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[Haz_____]

Man, against good players it feels next to impossible to actuallly get any damage off on the ground. Even harder to actually get a finish.

I think a HUGE problem contributing to this issue is the massive delay in responsiveness when trying to posture up and strike. For some reason after posturing, or even after following up a knockdown, your fighter is frozen in place for a few seconds and no inputs will be read. You'll be mashing on the punch butron but your guy literally just sits there staring at the opponent for a few seconds before actually doing anything.

Inputs need to be instant. I have no idea how such a big issue has gone untouched.

This was never a problem in UFC1 but it was in UFC2 and continues in 3.

This needs to be fixed.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Another change I'd like is seeing defensive positions against subs used. You can take a defensive position like the "hold the phone" position to protect against a rnc, but of course you're open to strikes. Maybe you could still attempt wrist control with the other hand which you'd have to time from incoming strikes and could help with advancing position. But if you just keep eating strikes from there, your guard to protect from the sub weakens. So you can't just guard from the sub all day and strikes from a not so threatening position still have value.

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[Papadoc60]

Full guard postured, half guard postured, side control/side saddle/crucifix are all positions to deal easy damage from while maintaining control without much effort. You have to also consider how easy it is to finish someone when you flatten them out in back mount, this can end the fight if you get stuck here.

Don't be afraid to try and get a KO from mount, not all top players are good at arm traps and if you deny after every punch you throw you'll have a good chance of doing some damage and possibly winning the fight from the mount.

Quick ground tips:

(Against competent fighters in ranked) If you have side saddle, throw elbows and deny them from going back to side control. If they get to back side, damage their block and deny full guard from them until their block breaks or they go back to side control or back clinch. If they go to back clinch, be prepared to deny left or right and try to land a high suplex or use the back sitting transition. If they go back to side control, just beat them with elbows and deny using contextual knowledge of how much damage they have taken and what transitions you have already denied against them in side control.

In full guard or half guard, if you posture up successfully without your opponent getting away you should usually be able to dominate this position. Don't let more than 1 strike get blocked per 3 seconds is a good rule and the denials windows will be large enough to deny reactively.

Hooks from full guard postured do a large amount of damage, be prepared for them to fake returning to full guard before trying to stand back up from this position. (In half guard, if you can successfully slap on an arm triangle and advance enough gates you will move to side control and deal a lot of head damage. Arm triangles will not force you to lose position, this is a good sub to get practice with.)

When you flatten your opponent out in back mount, throw hammerfists and deny up after each one. This is the pattern that will get you easy finishes from back flat.

Feel free to use stack guard if you know your opponent doesn't have catch subs from that position, but I avoid it if they do. I usually wait to deny once before throwing strikes and mix it up from there.(Use the same rule of only allowing 1 of your strikes to be blocked per 3 seconds here as well)

I feel like these are decent guidelines for doing damage from each position in the game and they're what I usually go by. How to be able to tell where someone wants to transition next or how to go about advancing position or posturing up would be a different post entirely though

I think the biggest thing that needs to be changed is that because control time does not matter for round by round scoring because of the new unified MMA rules, we should also consider that there should be 10-8 rounds in scenarios where a fighter is dominated on the ground for the entire round given that 10-8 rounds should come more liberally under the new rules. Like 3:00-4:15 of control time with ground and pound/close sub attempts should be a 10-8 round if you want to make the argument that control time means literally nothing in terms of scoring criteria.

[RomeroXVII]

Quote: Originally Posted by Papadoc60

Full guard postured, half guard postured, side control/side saddle/crucifix are all positions to deal easy damage from while maintaining control without much effort. You have to also consider how easy it is to finish someone when you flatten them out in back mount, this can end the fight if you get stuck here. Don't be afraid to try and get a KO from mount, not all top players are good at arm traps and if you deny after every punch you throw you'll have a good chance of doing some damage and possibly winning the fight from the mount. Quick ground tips: (Against competent fighters in ranked) If you have side saddle, throw elbows and deny them from going back to side control. If they get to back side, damage their block and deny full guard from them until their block breaks or they go back to side control or back clinch. If they go to back clinch, be prepared to deny left or right and try to land a high suplex or use the back sitting transition. If they go back to side control, just beat them with elbows and deny using contextual knowledge of how much damage they have taken and what transitions you have already denied against them in side control. In full guard or half guard, if you posture up successfully without your opponent getting away you should usually be able to dominate this position. Don't let more than 1 strike get blocked per 3 seconds is a good rule and the denials windows will be large enough to deny reactively. Hooks from full guard postured do a large amount of damage, be prepared for them to fake returning to full guard before trying to stand back up from this position. (In half guard, if you can successfully slap on an arm triangle and advance enough gates you will move to side control and deal a lot of head damage. Arm triangles will not force you to lose position, this is a good sub to get practice with.) When you flatten your opponent out in back mount, throw hammerfists and deny up after each one. This is the pattern that will get you easy finishes from back flat. Feel free to use stack guard if you know your opponent doesn't have catch subs from that position, but I avoid it if they do. I usually wait to deny once before throwing strikes and mix it up from there.(Use the same rule of only allowing 1 of your strikes to be blocked per 3 seconds here as well) I feel like these are decent guidelines for doing damage from each position in the game and they're what I usually go by. How to be able to tell where someone wants to transition next or how to go about advancing position or posturing up would be a different post entirely though I think the biggest thing that needs to be changed is that because control time does not matter for round by round scoring because of the new unified MMA rules, we should also consider that there should be 10-8 rounds in scenarios where a fighter is dominated on the ground for the entire round given that 10-8 rounds should come more liberally under the new rules. Like 3:00-4:15 of control time with ground and pound/close sub attempts should be a 10-8 round if you want to make the argument that control time means literally nothing in terms of scoring criteria.

Takes notes because I haven't ran into you on ranked in a long time and I must be prepared lmaooo