Will EA UFC 3 be 30fps or 60fps ?

[drinklime]

Quote: Originally Posted by GameplayDevUFC

It is true. You need to send twice as much data across the network in the same amount of time. You also have to run a sim that takes twice as much CPU power when you're catching up after a lag spike. Both of those factors increase lag. It wouldn't increase lag in optimal network conditions, but it would change the threshold where lag starts to get introduced, making more matches laggy than at a lower hz. If you don't believe me, take it to the extreme. What would happen if we increased the update rate form 30 hz to 3000 hz? We'd be sending 1000 times more data across the network. Do you think that would impact lag?

Is this like tick rate in Battlefield? I always wondered why everyone wouldnt use the highest ticks, but now that makes sense because it uses more data. But maybe you can decouple the graphics engine from the physics engine, and only send data on impulses.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Quote: Originally Posted by drinklime

Is this like tick rate in Battlefield? I always wondered why everyone wouldnt use the highest ticks, but now that makes sense because it uses more data. But maybe you can decouple the graphics engine from the physics engine, and only send data on impulses.

FPS games use a completely different network model than sports game (in general).

FPS games sim on a server, and render a best approximation of that sim on the client.

If one client gets super laggy, his experience degrades while everyone else contiunes along as normal.

Also means each client could have a different update rate if they wanted to.

(Most) sports games use a deterministic network model where the inputs for both players are passed across the network and simulated on each side. A simulation won't happen without the other side's inputs.

So both players experience the exact same thing, so if one side lags the other experiences it to.

You also can't only send data on impulses because the lack of an impulse is information that needs to get passed across to properly sim.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Quote: Originally Posted by GameplayDevUFC

It is true. You need to send twice as much data across the network in the same amount of time. You also have to run a sim that takes twice as much CPU power when you're catching up after a lag spike. Both of those factors increase lag. It wouldn't increase lag in optimal network conditions, but it would change the threshold where lag starts to get introduced, making more matches laggy than at a lower hz. If you don't believe me, take it to the extreme. What would happen if we increased the update rate form 30 hz to 3000 hz? We'd be sending 1000 times more data across the network. Do you think that would impact lag?

Forgot to mention, not only are you sending twice as much data, but the data needs to be sent twice as fast.

Imagine the extreme example again.

In a 30 hz game, I have to send say one byte of data and the other side needs it in 1/30 of a second in order to sim on time to run at 30 hz.

In a 3000 hz game, I have to send that same byte in 1/3000 of a second to the other side in order for it to start simming on time.

So in one second, I would have sent 3000 bytes as opposed to 30 bytes.

In addition, I need the ability to send 1 byte 1000 times faster across the network in order to not stall.

[SUGATA]

Quote: Originally Posted by GameplayDevUFC

It is true. You need to send twice as much data across the network in the same amount of time. You also have to run a sim that takes twice as much CPU power when you're catching up after a lag spike. Both of those factors increase lag. It wouldn't increase lag in optimal network conditions, but it would change the threshold where lag starts to get introduced, making more matches laggy than at a lower hz. If you don't believe me, take it to the extreme. What would happen if we increased the update rate form 30 hz to 3000 hz? We'd be sending 1000 times more data across the network. Do you think that would impact lag?

But we dont need 3000, we need 60 fps )
60 fps will not make huge difference in data exchange, especially if you will use roll back netwrok code like GGPO or other roll back.
Examples:
all fighting games last 5 years has 60 fps on old systems PS2 and PS3 and on PS3 network was good (take any ;ast arcade fighting game like Tekken Tag tournament 2, MKX, SF4, where you need to make _just frame inputs_ online - and those are ok), so why on PS4 in 2016 we cant have 60 fps with normal network code in a game where no just frames.

Also in NETWORK CODE - you dont need to send an animation with 60 fps, in network code the system send an action code (jab) in appropriate time (1:20:10). Example: 1P jab on 1st second, 2P block on 2 second. Time (1st and 2nd seconds) are the same in 30fps client and 60 fps client = no effect on network code.
Frame per second is about an visible animation not about sending codes via network.
All cybersport players always play on large fps (CSGO on 200-300 fps) w/o any network issues from it.

____________________________


More info about lag free netwrok code for fighting games and others and roll back technology wich is several years old:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussi...etwork-results

__________________________________

Quote:

FPS games use a completely different network model than sports game (in general). FPS games sim on a server, and render a best approximation of that sim on the client. If one client gets super laggy, his experience degrades while everyone else contiunes along as normal. Also means each client could have a different update rate if they wanted to.

not all FPS games are on dedicated servers, many FPS games are P2P (peer to peer), where one of the players is a host (there are mau be 12 and more players in P2P).
P2P also can use roll back network technology

[GameplayDevUFC]

Quote: Originally Posted by SUGATA

But we dont need 3000, we need 60 fps ) 60 fps will not make huge difference in data exchange, especially if you will use roll back netwrok code like GGPO or other roll back. Examples: all fighting games last 5 years has 60 fps on old systems PS2 and PS3 and on PS3 network was good (take any ;ast arcade fighting game like Tekken Tag tournament 2, MKX, SF4, where you need to make _just frame inputs_ online - and those are ok), so why on PS4 in 2016 we cant have 60 fps with normal network code in a game where no just frames. Also in NETWORK CODE - you dont need to send an animation with 60 fps, in network code the system send an action code (jab) in appropriate time (1:20:10). Example: 1P jab on 1st second, 2P block on 2 second. Time (1st and 2nd seconds) are the same in 30fps client and 60 fps client = no effect on network code. All cybersport players always play on large fps (CSGO on 200-300 fps) w/o any network issues from it.

See my post above. You're comparing client/server architectures to a deterministic network model.

Apples and oranges.

[drinklime]

Quote: Originally Posted by GameplayDevUFC

See my post above. You're comparing client/server architectures to a deterministic network model. Apples and oranges.

That means now is the perfect time to switch to a client/server architecture for EA UFC 3. This would support 60 fps and Online Fight cards, Spectator Mode, etc. Seems like an easy decision at this point. Everyone wants 60 fps.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Quote: Originally Posted by drinklime

That means now is the perfect time to switch to a client/server architecture for EA UFC 3. This would support 60 fps and Online Fight cards, Spectator Mode, etc. Seems like an easy decision at this point. Everyone wants 60 fps.

It has never been done for a fighting game to my knowledge.

I don't want to get into all the technical details, because I get the sense that this is already too technical for most as the arguments I'm getting back are missing the point.

Let's just say it's not a trivial thing to do, and may be impossible given the requirements of a close quarters fighting game.

An example of the kinds of artifacts you'd get, are seeing yourself block a strike on the screen, successfully starting to throw a counter strike, and then all of a sudden warping to the ground in a KO state wondering what the hell happened.

That kind of discrepancy between the client and the server (or authoritative client in a P2P setup) can be hidden in an FPS game where a head shot happens and you don't have any visual indication of your opponents aim at the time the shot was taken.

Doesn't go over so well in a fighting game where the opponent's actions and timing are 100% clear.

[Soupkin]

Quote: Originally Posted by drinklime

That means now is the perfect time to switch to a client/server architecture for EA UFC 3. This would support 60 fps and Online Fight cards, Spectator Mode, etc. Seems like an easy decision at this point. Everyone wants 60 fps.

I don't see how we don't have the technology, when a 64 player server in battlefield can pump out 85 tick rate with all that information going on. Vehicles flying, driving, bullets flying and 64 players movements. We're talking about two people in a ring.