FAKE TRANSITION mechanics

[SUGATA]

Many knows it but it needs to be clear.

FAKE TRANSITION (FT):

- (click) RS in faked GM direction – in Clinch/Ground Fake Transition of ANY Grappling move (GM) (transition, submission, throw, TD). FT starts initial GM’s animation, which duration is different for different GMs (have 30 - 120F execution), during which it can be successfully GB Denied/GB Reversed (it possible even after yellow TM disappeared, to discover FT window for every GM go to Practice and hold R2 on opponent’s gamepad, FT window = white (not inactive gray) “Defend” icon duration time).

- Shorter FT window = better FT (harder to deny/reverse).

FT – is the best way to successfully perform easy to deny, difficult GM; is the best way to save myself in critical Ground situations (opponent has SA and GA)!
FT animation: 1. Start into the ready idle (can be denied/reverse) > 2. Cancel back into the neutral idle; fighter returns to initial position (can not be denied/reverse).
Use only Short FT – i.e. FT with short (small) FT window (which is harder to deny/reverse).


FT pros:
1. Provoke opponent to make Blank GB (can not be noticed, only anticipated: no animation, no vibration to me, just a bit Stamina decrease).
Perform FT > [if I am sure that the opponent just performed Blank GB; during 2s after his Blank GB] immediately perform my GM (while his GB is not possible).


FT cons:
1. If my FT was denied – I loose SA and GA; If my FT was reversed – I get into more disadvantage position.
Never use Long FT – i.e. FT with long (large) FT window (which is easier to deny/reverse).
2. My FT is cancelling the opponent's inability to deny (GB) during 2 sec after Blank GB.
Never use FT when you think that the opponent performed a Blank GB - use this to perform undeniable GM.

Good FT (Short FT – harder to deny/reverse):
1. all Clinch GMs = 0.5s
1. any Posture up = 0.5s
2. sub HG to sub FG = 0.5s
3. sub Side Control to sub Sprawl/sub HG = 0.5s
4. sub FM to sub FG = 0.5s
4. sub FM to sub HG = 0.8s
5. sub SC to Single Leg TD position = 0.5s

Bad FT (Long FT – easier to deny/reverse):
1. Clinch: SL & DL TD = 1.5s
1. Clinch: dom BC to dom Back Sitting = 1.5s
2. dom FG to dom HG = 1s
2. sub FG to dom Back Sitting = 2s
3. sub HG to dom Back Sitting/dom Back Side = 2s
4. sub FM to Getup = 2s
5. sub Sprawl All GMs = 2s

So, FT is a very useful tool and well risk/reward balanced.
Fake transitions are BALANCED in the game:
- FT are risky because it can be denied (stamina penalty and GDA) and reversed.
- FT are rewarded by _guaranteed_ unblockable transition if opponent failed (missed his Grapple block because of fake).


Fix:

There are 2 types of failed GB:
Blank GB - mistimed GB (inputted not during opponent's TM filling up):
- causes 1/4 GDA
- 2 sec window, during which opponent's any started GM becomes undeniable.

Wrong GB - right timed but in wrong direction GB:
- causes 1/4 GDA
- already started opponent's GM, during which TM was inputted Wrong GB, becomes undeniable.
- no 2 sec window, creating undeniable GM.

2 sec - is an approximate time, and i suggest that this can change between different positions and situations.


So, (mistimed) Blank GB is much more dangerous than Wrong GB.
When opponent performs FT - GB immediately (better wrong then mistimed).
When opponent performs not faked GM - GB surely (better later then wrong).
So, mixing up FT and not faked GM will force the opponent to GB quickly or surely, which will break his game (his timing) and open the opportunity for you to advance!


BUT

WHITHOUT Blank GB or Wrong GB SYGNALS (by animation, by scream sound like "ouh", etc) - it will be impossible to recognize and react to this consciously (more fast reaction and recognizing = more skill), instead of it will be random anticipation (less depth and strategy). Now in UFC 2 we dont have real signal for Blank GB or Wrong GB - too minor stamina decrease, no GA gauge in pvp, in pvp Grapple HUD does not show "defense" icon (and this is right!); only anticipation and prediction which is not so good.
Devs, i ask you again, please implement sygnals for Blank and Wrong GBs (the best - different sygnaks for Blank and another for Wrong GB):
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...ple-block.html

[Generative James]

I don't think fake transitions create an guaranteed unblockable transition. Did you read this somewhere?

I believe the only benefit of when someone tries to deny your fake transition too late (Blank Grapple Block), is a Grapple Advantage(GA) that you keep until anyone successfully changes position. It doesn't matter how long you sit there, it's good until someone advances position. It can be lost when your opponent gains their own GA, like by punching, but it won't quickly expire on it's own the way GA usually does. And multiple fakes can fill the GA meter all the way to full so that it's there when you need it, that is, IF you can successfully use it.

For instance, in Full Guard with no GA on either side. The top fighter can fake a Posture Up, then immediately transition to Half Guard. The bottom fighter can deny the fake too late, giving GA to the top fighter that appears on the meter, but still successfully deny, and even reverse, the transition to Half Guard. The top fighter gained GA from the fake, but not enough to overcome the bottom fighters good timing on the second deny.

Everything else looks pretty helpful though. Thanks! This is a game mechanic that needs more attention draw to it.

[Boiler569]

Good stuff I will have to go through this list in great detail, I'm sure i will pick up a tip or two!!

[SUGATA]

Quote: Originally Posted by Generative James

I don't think fake transitions create an guaranteed unblockable transition. Did you read this somewhere? I believe the only benefit of when someone tries to deny your fake transition too late (Blank Grapple Block), is a Grapple Advantage(GA) that you keep until anyone successfully changes position. It doesn't matter how long you sit there, it's good until someone advances position. It can be lost when your opponent gains their own GA, like by punching, but it won't quickly expire on it's own the way GA usually does. And multiple fakes can fill the GA meter all the way to full so that it's there when you need it, that is, IF you can successfully use it. For instance, in Full Guard with no GA on either side. The top fighter can fake a Posture Up, then immediately transition to Half Guard. The bottom fighter can deny the fake too late, giving GA to the top fighter that appears on the meter, but still successfully deny, and even reverse, the transition to Half Guard. The top fighter gained GA from the fake, but not enough to overcome the bottom fighters good timing on the second deny. Everything else looks pretty helpful though. Thanks! This is a game mechanic that needs more attention draw to it.

I said "1. Provoke opponent to make Blank GB (can not be noticed, only anticipated: no animation, no vibration to me, just a bit Stamina decrease)." - it means that ANY GM started during 2 sec just after blank GB will be undeniable. And this is not because of GA. This is because of GB mechanics itself - every missed (by time or direction) GB gives 2 sec window for any GB to start to become 100% undeniable regardless of GA.

Blank GB - is a missed GB, missed by time (to earlier or late, i.e. not during denial window) or missed by direction (wrong direction, this is the target for FT!)

The proof: practice w 2 controllers > make Blank GB by 2P for ex by mistimed (click R2+RS) > then immediately hold R2 by 2P + start any GM (RS) by 1P > look on 2P Grapple HUD: his "defense" icon becomes gray (instead of white), gray = not active, white = active.
It will be gray during all the duration of 1P TM filling up until it A. it is completed B. 1P release RS before competing (for ex for his FT).
It means 2nd CON of FT: FT cancels 2P inability to deny.
My FT is cancelling the opponent's inability to deny (GB) during 2 sec after Blank GB.
Never use FT when you think that the opponent performed a Blank GB - use this to perform undeniable GM.

[Generative James]

Hmm, it looks like we're both right. Somehow. I see what you are saying and your proof seems to work consistently when you Blank Grapple Block, but not in response to anything. It isn't consistent though if you do a Blank Grapple Block right after a canceled transition.

Made a quick video showing the exact scenario I described in the last post with time code. First, regular speed, then with pauses on important moments, then in slow motion.



-------------
Frame 12: Fake Posture Up Transition Begins

Frame 15: Fake Transition is Canceled

Frame 29: Grapple Advantage begins to appear. Indicating Blank Grapple Block, tried to deny a transition that had already been canceled

Frame 51: Real Half Guard Transitions Begins

Frame 61: Transition is Reversed
-------------

The entire time from the 1st fake transition, to the Blank Grapple Block, to the Reversal, is 49 frames. That's less than 2 seconds.

Maybe it's just the game knows when you Blank Grapple Block because you're trying to deny a fake and it punishes you, but it punishes you MORE when you Blank Grapple Block for seemingly no reason. Not a guaranteed transition though.

[Generative James]

And this all boils down to the very spirit of transition fakes, about which there is much confusion. I don't believe it was ever intended as a fake one way, quickly transition the other way type mechanic like they were in Undisputed. They can successfully be used that way though, just through the weapon of confusion.

All italics are from GPD's Dynamic Grappling Breakdown

"There’s a very advanced technique used primarily to counter aggressive lay and pray techniques called transition fakes.
If your opponent is on top of you, denying every transition you attempt but making no effort to capitalize on the fact that he’s gaining stamina and grapple advantage and is just trying to hold you down, you can use transition fakes to try and earn back enough of a stamina advantage to escape."

I believe there are three scenarios relative to this thread:

1. Preemptive denial. This is when you Blank Grapple Block before something to block actually happens. This involves the greyed out HUD and 2 second transition lockout. This is what was described in the original post.

"if you do pre-emptively deny, the controller will vibrate and you’ll lose stamina. And you’ll lose grapple advantage. So don’t do it. It’s bad."

2. Grapple Block soon enough after transition fake that the transition is denied, even though it was only a fake. An eventual stamina advantage is the prize for attempted fakes that are still denied.

"If your opponent denies your transition after you’ve cancelled, he will successful deny you and gain a bigger grapple advantage than normal, but incur a stamina penalty.
The grapple advantage bonus would give him an easier transition or submission attempt in the moment, but once the advantage times out, he’ll be exposed to a stamina disadvantage that you may be able to capitalize on. If this pattern continues, you can widdle his stamina down so much while regaining yours, that you should be able to escape with ease."

3. Blank Grapple Block shortly after canceled transition. These are fakes where the opponent tries to deny but does it too late. Here the faker gains a Grapple Advantage that doesn't time out and lasts the duration of the position. It does not involve a 2 second transition lockout. This is what is shown in the video.

tldr Transition Fake Pros;

1) Detect when your opponent preemptively denies nothing, though this would be hard without the grapple meter, and get a guaranteed unblockable transition.

2) Fake, get denied, repeat until you get a stamina advantage.

3) Fake, don't get denied, gain grapple advantage if they tried to deny but too late.

[SUGATA]

Quote: Originally Posted by Generative James

And this all boils down to the very spirit of transition fakes, about which there is much confusion. I don't believe it was ever intended as a fake one way, quickly transition the other way type mechanic like they were in Undisputed. They can successfully be used that way though, just through the weapon of confusion. All italics are from GPD's Dynamic Grappling Breakdown "There’s a very advanced technique used primarily to counter aggressive lay and pray techniques called transition fakes. If your opponent is on top of you, denying every transition you attempt but making no effort to capitalize on the fact that he’s gaining stamina and grapple advantage and is just trying to hold you down, you can use transition fakes to try and earn back enough of a stamina advantage to escape." I believe there are three scenarios relative to this thread: 1. Preemptive denial. This is when you Blank Grapple Block before something to block actually happens. This involves the greyed out HUD and 2 second transition lockout. This is what was described in the original post. "if you do pre-emptively deny, the controller will vibrate and you’ll lose stamina. And you’ll lose grapple advantage. So don’t do it. It’s bad." 2. Grapple Block soon enough after transition fake that the transition is denied, even though it was only a fake. An eventual stamina advantage is the prize for attempted fakes that are still denied. "If your opponent denies your transition after you’ve cancelled, he will successful deny you and gain a bigger grapple advantage than normal, but incur a stamina penalty. The grapple advantage bonus would give him an easier transition or submission attempt in the moment, but once the advantage times out, he’ll be exposed to a stamina disadvantage that you may be able to capitalize on. If this pattern continues, you can widdle his stamina down so much while regaining yours, that you should be able to escape with ease." 3. Blank Grapple Block shortly after canceled transition. These are fakes where the opponent tries to deny but does it too late. Here the faker gains a Grapple Advantage that doesn't time out and lasts the duration of the position. It does not involve a 2 second transition lockout. This is what is shown in the video. tldr Transition Fake Pros; 1) Detect when your opponent preemptively denies nothing, though this would be hard without the grapple meter, and get a guaranteed unblockable transition. 2) Fake, get denied, repeat until you get a stamina advantage. 3) Fake, don't get denied, gain grapple advantage if they tried to deny but too late.

Blank GB creates an unique approximately (may be different for different situation i suggest) 2 sec window, any GM started within this window will be undeniable regardless of GA - i.e. the GM becomes undeniable not because of GA; proof: even difficult GM with slow long TM filling up will be undeniable (not active GB = grey "defense" icon during all its TM filling up duration).

About GA that does not last over time after Blank GB i said before also - this is Permanent GA:


http://www.operationsports.com/forum...r-gauge-4.html




I discovered this only thanks to new GA gauge - this is an awesome tool, especially when this will be IN PRACTICE ONLY.

As i said we also need an Damage MP gauge for striking!

I dont use frame chronometer tools so all my times/frames are approximate, so if you could to bring more concrete detailed times by yr videos this will always be appreciated.


P.S/ Why my link in the post is not opening?
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...r-gauge-4.html

[Generative James]

I think we are both over using the term Blank Grapple Block to describe many similar but different situations. Not all Blank Grapple Blocks are created equal.

When you describe the Undeniable Transition, you are correctly describing the consequences of two different scenarios.

1. Preemptive Denial. If I hold R2 and move RS but my opponent has not begun a transition.

2. Denial in the Wrong Direction. They transition up, I accidentally deny left, even if there is still plenty of time to deny in the correct direction, I can now no longer deny the transition.

But neither of these scenarios actually have anything to do with transition fakes. If you fake a transition and your opponent tries to deny your fake in the wrong direction, then what you describe may occur. But because of the Denial in the Wrong Direction, not the fake. If you fake a transition and your opponent tries to deny in the correct direction, even if it is too late to actually deny the fake, what you describe does not occur. In the video, the length of time between the Blank Grapple Block and the Defend HUD appearing is less then a second. And you can clearly see that the bottom fighters Defend HUD is not greyed out.

It is probably true that doing fakes increases the odds of your opponent denying in the wrong direction. It may be helpful, but it's an indirect link, the transition fake mechanic does not directly cause the undeniable transition. I'm not sure the benefit would even carry over. Normally for a denial in the wrong direction, once a new transition starts, you can deny again. It's probably like that for the fakes too but could behave more like the Preemptive Denials and lock you out for a window of time.

It would be impossible to test for sure though, since there's no way to visually verify in what direction denials occur.