NEW Stand-up FEINT mechanics for EA UFC 3 (concept, ideas, discussions)

[SUGATA]

Feints are important. Feints are very important in boxing, in mma, in real life.
But unfortunately feints are not important in the game EA UFC 1-2, almost nobody uses them.




Why?
Because now Feints does NOT allow to extract enough reward from it, because of its mechanics issues.

This thread is one more stone, 3rd part, to the NEW complex Stand-up Striking mechanics, which elements i hope will be used by devs for UFC 3:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...scussions.html
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...scussions.html


EA UFC 2 current FEINT MECHANICS:

COUNTER WINDOW (CW) – 2-3 sec window, during which any one 1^st started Strike get Damage bonus multiplier (MP); I get CW after opponent’s whiffed Strike (by Dash, Sway, Parry, Moving out of his range) and denied his Clinch/TD attempt.


COMBO MULTILPIER (CM) – damage multiplier (MP) for the next Strike after clear Hit, IF next Strike is going under Combo rules and started during 2 sec after the previous successfully landed Strike.

holding)R2+R1 and (click) square/triangle/cross/circle˜ - Feint Head punch/kick
(holding)R2+R1+L2 and (click) square/triangle - Feint Body punch
(holding)R2+R1+L2 and (click) RS - Feint TD attempt


- has not different animations for different types of punches and kicks


- does not affects CM damage bonus value


- does not create Boosted strike; Strike just after Feint has normal neutral speed (not boosted)


- does not create CW and even cancel my CW (cancel Counter damage bonus) ; do NOT use Feints when I get CW [after successful Parry, Dash, Sway, opponent’s whiffed Strike, denied opponent’s Clinch/TD attempt or during opponent’s Clinch grabbing motion].


- [if inputted during CM (after dealing hit) 2 sec duration window] Feint is restarting the 2 sec timer and > allows during it to perform several any type Feints (no difference) even in a row and the next Strike w/o loosing gained CM damage bonus.


Feint usage:


- [in the middle of before the final Strike in the Combo] to open the opponent (w/o loosing CM).


- in neutral state (no CW) use Feint to open the opponent by forcing him to use wrong Block/Parry/Dash/Sway/Stand up GB > immediately perform Strike to opened part.





EA UFC 2 Feints issues AND How to fix/change it for EA UFC 3:

1) The most important - not usable COMMAND INPUT:
To perform Feint you need to hold R1+R2 and input the command of the move.
TD feint: R2+R1+L2+RS, Body punch: R2+R1+L2+face buttons - 4 buttons together... Are you serious?!

>>> G-CANCEL as FEINT INPUT (ANALOG G-CANCEL):
G - guard, block.
The best way to input Feints is to input the Move you want to feint and then immediately click R1 or R2 (block buttons) to cancel its animation and to transfer this move into feint.

Details:
- every strike or Clinch/TD attempt can be cancelled, BUT ONLY on its 50% of startup animation (before landed hit) - some strikes has shorter this window, others has longer, so some strikes are comfortable to feint , some are not. Need balancing.
- after feint (G-cancel) you can not _immediately to get active Block, only after 10frames delay (for ending Feints animation and for counter balance vs feints)
- Feints duration = Counter window for the opponent (his strike landed during feint gets dmg bonus mp), i.e. Feints are rewarded but dangerous tool also = balance.

Effects from G-cancel Feints:
1. Easy intuitive and ergonomical input
2. Diversity - you can create any different feints based on initial Move animation
3. Analog diversity (ANALOG G-CANCEL) - you can create different feints for the same strike type by cancelling it earlier or later.
4. Feints diversity creates a huge opportunity for mind game and creativity.

This is the cause why i offer to make only ONE way to feint - by ANALOG G-CANCEL, which could cancel the strike early (for cancelling into block) and a bit later (to become a Feint).

But again - there are must to be strike (like powerful kicks and others) which must to be impossible or hard to cancel or feint (on very early startup) and more feint oriented strikes (basis punches or kicks). Why? because there are must to be an opportunity for punish and penalty for wrong timed strike! If every strike can be easily canceled on any its startup phase - then the game becomes less risk/rewarded and balanced.


2) Strike after the Feint is slow, NOT BOOSTED:
Your successful feint becomes useless if the opponent have time to react and change his status.

>>> true (not feint) Strike started just after (0.5-1 sec window) must to be BOOSTED strike (faster startup like after dashes)
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...mechanics.html
In real life feints are setups for the true follow up strike, so this will be fast.
So SOME strikes must (basic strikes, not L1) to be boosted, may be some strikes does not - needs balance analysis.

ALSO

VERY IMPORTANT! Only strikes from OPPOSITE side to prev feint must to get speed Boosting (because of momentum). The same side strike will have normal speed.
Now is does not matter.
For UFC 3 this (only opposite to feint side strike is getting speed boost because of momentum) will force the player smartly plan & choose which side feint to use (so more skill and smart gameplay) + also allow for the opponent to predict from which side will be incoming true strike after feint, which allow skillful player to evade (for ex, appropriate side step or sway) or counter it = more skillful/more depth Feiting and combo making and defense!



3) Faint CANCELS COUNTER bonus dmg after successful evasive move (dash, side step, sway, zoning with strike whiff, parry), i.e. cancels Counter window (CW) - you can not to use feint after them.

>>> Faint MUST NOT cancel CW, even more, one (not more) feint must to restart CW allowing to start true strike during 1-2 sec after one feint.



4) Feints has BAD TELEGRAPHING and FEW/POOR animation:
There are no different animations for different strikes feints.
5 animations: high punch, body punch, kick, back kick (LS bwd), TD.

>>> With G-cancel we get a huge filed of creativity to perform different tens of feints.



5) You can not MODIFY/diverse your Feint animation

>>> G-cancel on different move's startup times will change it.



6) Feints costs too much STAMINA.
Some feints costs the same stamina as the true strike w/o canceling.

>>> Feint's stamina cost = 1/3 or 1/2 stamina costs of this true strike (may be based of cancel time phase earlier or later).



7) Feint is restarting Combo multiplier (CM) window for 2 sec - this is not an issue, but the issue is that it can be done INFINITE number of times.
Check the video:
I perform Jab, Uppercut (so i got CM for my next L1 special body punch) and my L1 body hook caused FBHR stun because of total 5 dmg, but to open the opponent i made a feint before this strike... this is ok, but not ok that i can make INFINITE numbers of feints and ANY feints (regardless of momentum) and still keep this CM bonus.




>>> ONLY 1-2 FEINTS restarts CM window bonus and keep it, 2nd/3rd feints cancels CM and the followed true strike will be w/o dmg bonus.



8) We can feint only Punch to head, Punch to body, Kick, TD.

>>> G-cancel allows to feint nearly EVERY and ANY strike (but with different success effeciency, checke higher)... allow us to G-cancel into feint a CLINCH attempt (now only TD can be feinted), and SWAY, and even DASHES/SIDE STEPS on their early startup phase!
And as i said in my Footwork thread - please remove ability to Blocking during Dashes/Side steps (!) as we dont have it during Sways, this is very important for balance!



9) We do NOT have STRIKE FEINTS in Clinch and especially GROUND.

>>> Give us the ability to make Strikes FEINTS in Clinch or at least in GROUND. Why? Strike Feints on Ground (in Posture up) can create openings for our Grappling moves (example: strike feint > opponent make Block (which gives us GA for our transition) for getting GA or for solving with Arm traps (make feint for failing his Arm trap and just then perform true strike).

I hope this new thread will be useful for devs in their work on new EA UFC 3!


__________________________________________________ ______________________

Update 12.03.2017:

Possible problem which i heard from devs is a too large of required resources for making recovery (after G-cancel) animation for all strikes.

So, i want to present a solutions and ways.


UFC Undisputed 3 Feints and G-cancel mechanics:






FEINTS:
(holding) R1+R2 and click strike buttons

1. not cost stamina at all
2. no strike modifiers (L1, L2, LS) effect. So we have only 4 type of feints
3. Followed up strike is BOOSTED (has faster startup), w/o matter of the strike type of limb
4. possible to feint with moving (not in place only)
Resume: could be very useful for feinting because of boosting.


G-CANCEL:
(click) Block JUST AFTER (first max 5 frames = 5/60 sec) strike input

1. not cost stamina at all
2. possible to G-cancel every strike even modified by L2, L1, LS
3. NO boosting for followed strike
4. not possible to G-cancel with moving
Resume: can not be very useful for feinting, only purpose is C-cancel not wanted strike but requires too early input for this, so not very useful.



EA UFC 2:

NO G-CANCEL at all.

FEINTS:
(holding) R1+R2 and click strike buttons

1. cost stamina
2. no strike modifiers (L1, LS) effect, only L2. So we have only 8 type of feints
3. Followed up strike is _NOT_ BOOSTED (has faster startup)
4. NOT possible to feint with moving (not in place only)
Resume: feints are totally useless!


How to solve it in EA UFC 3:
There are 2 ways: 1 - more fundamental, much more resources; 2 - easy, less resources.

1 way - ANALOG G-CANCEL as FEINT INPUT (ANALOG G-CANCEL):
Create ANALOG G-canceling - which stops strike on several its startup stages and recover it back.

Check numbers in 1st thread post for more details:
1) Analog G-cancel as a Feint for EVERY strike.
4)-5) With analog G-cancel we could to create different animations for feints, with more telegraphing baiting.


2 way - current FEINT but with another parametres + G-cancel as command input buffer clearing.

COMMAND BUFFER CLEARING by Block (G):
when i press a 2 strikes in a row, 2nd strikes is performing after 1st strike ends, because it is remembered in buffer. EA UFC 2 buffer memory size = 2 moves.
Often i see that i need to block not striking before my strike started but can not to cancel it.
Give us the ability to click G (Block) before strike startup (or on its initial frames) to stop it and regain Block.

FEINTS changes:
Click Block (R1 or R2) + face buttons or TD - the same input (but for TD as i wrote in my "NEW Stand up Footwork mechanics" input on RS w/o L2, check this thread).
1. Feints costs max 1/3 - check 6) in 1st thread post
2. No L1, RS modifiers effects or no L1 only modifier effect on with strikes can be cancelled as a feint. More types of Feints.
3. Followed up strike is BOOSTED (has faster startup), BUT... only if this strike is OPPOSITE side strike (needs momentum for boosting)! - check 2).
4. Give us ability to make Strikes, Sways, Feints WHILE KEEP MOVING - check my "New stand up Footwork" thread.
5. Check 3) - Faint MUST NOT cancel CW, even more, one (not more) feint must to restart CW allowing to start true strike during 1-2 sec after one feint.
6. Check 7) - ONLY 1-2 FEINTS restarts CM window bonus and keep it, 2nd/3rd feints cancels CM and the followed true strike will be w/o dmg bonus.
7. Check 9) - Give us the ability to make Strikes FEINTS in Clinch or at least in GROUND.

RESUME: This 2nd way allow devs to revamp totally Feints mechanics w/o much resources and animation work.

[OdiniOn]

The only part I personally think is very neccessary from all of this is feint input buttons. Should be as you said, press strike, then block early to feint.

Till this day it boggles my mind that they chose RB+RT to be the feint input, boggles my effing mind.

[fishingtime]

Quote: Originally Posted by OdiniOn

The only part I personally think is very neccessary from all of this is feint input buttons. Should be as you said, press strike, then block early to feint. Till this day it boggles my mind that they chose RB+RT to be the feint input, boggles my effing mind.

That is a strike cancel. We need those too.

LB + LT was what Undisputed used. This is just reversed on the controller.

[OdiniOn]

Quote: Originally Posted by fishingtime

That is a strike cancel. We need those too. LB + LT was what Undisputed used. This is just reversed on the controller.

What are you talking about? Undisputed 3 was how SUGATA advises it to be in UFC 3, cancelling strikes were inputted by pressing block right after throwing a strike, I don't think LB+LT was an input at all in Undisputed 3

[fishingtime]

Quote: Originally Posted by OdiniOn

What are you talking about? Undisputed 3 was how SUGATA advises it to be in UFC 3, cancelling strikes were inputted by pressing block right after throwing a strike, I don't think LB+LT was an input at all in Undisputed 3

Strike cancel. LB + LT + strike was feint in UD3.

[SUGATA]

Quote: Originally Posted by fishingtime

Strike cancel. LB + LT + strike was feint in UD3.

This is true.

But the problem is:
1) EA UFC 2 has the same input for Feints as UFC Undisputed: R2+R1.
But in Undisputed Feints were the same as in EA UFC 2 - 4 standard animations.
Feints in UFC Undisputed has the same success as in EA UFC 2 - they were not usable very well.

2) UFC Undisputed also has Strike cancel - G-cancel (click block on strike startup).
G-cancel in Undisputed was not done well also - only on the very early startup you could to stop your strike, so it was more returning to Block and stopping yr strike than feint (because of bad telegraphing the move to the opponent, not good for baiting him).

So, feints was not a common and well done tool in UFC Undisputed also, as i think.

This is the cause why i offer to make only ONE way to feint - by ANALOG G-CANCEL, which could cancel the strike early (for cancelling into block) and a bit later (to become a Feint).

But again - there are must to be strikes (like powerful kicks and others) which must to be impossible or hard to cancel or feint (on very early startup) and more feint oriented strikes (basic punches or kicks). Why? because there are must to be an opportunity for punish and penalty for wrong timed strike! If every strike can be easily canceled on any its startup phase - then the game becomes less risk/rewarded and balanced.

[fishingtime]

My concern was more with the wording because that can confuse the devs as to what we are trying to convey.

[OdiniOn]

Okay now we're on the same page. Man i'll be so hyped if block inputs as a strike cancellation in UFC 3.