Please remove magnetic striking

[SUGATA]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

2- The sliding is not an illusion. I'm just pointing out what causes it. One of the causes are animations that make the fighter lean back, even though they don't have a gameplay element of built-in back lean to them. A lunge thats tarts after the strike is thrown cannot be followed by the strike, because the strike's range has already been determined. So, there will be neither sliding because of a head falsely leaning back; nor a built-in step on hooks and uppers. This is fine both as gameplay and visuals. It's a reward for a very well-timed retreat. The timing element here is not very different from that on head movement in general.

I am saying the same, except ONE word that you kept silent:
...b/c the strike's range has already been AUTO determined BY AI.

THIS is wrong!

Animation - this is one thing. Some strikes like Hooks when stationary has built-in step; in close range this step is skipped, on mid range - exists... but this is just an animation , it does not matter how it looks like = it hits in both situations (ranges). May be, we have a bug (false sway in bwd lunge) and we have hit but it was not animated... so sliding helps (magnetism). I.e. it hits ALWAYS , the difference only in animation which solves the visual connecting issues - this is OK.

But

Hit detection - this is ANOTHER thing!

Hit detection MUST NOT to be AUTO ADJUSTED b/c of AI - based on the lunge's timing the AI determines hit or not. It must to be a result of player's skill, but skill which is POSSIBLE in this situation.

From gameplay point of view - again, this is NOT a "reward" for well timed lunge b/c this IMPOSSIBLE to time Lunge just after Strike begins on reaction, especially in online.

> There must to be ONE Max Strike range of Hit detection - the same for standing still and retreating opponent. And it must not to be changed b/c of any factors.

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phillyboi207

So I think the issue here is we want the lunge to operate like this regardless if it’s prior to the strike being thrown. Why isnt range determined upon input vs the strike actually coming out?

I don't think the time of the input should take precedence over the strike being thrown. If you buff your input a bit sooner or later during your block stun, for instance, that should not matter, imo. EDIT: I had missinterpreted your question. So... you think it's about the input. I actually don't know if it is. I suspect it is about when the strike actually starts. That's a good question for GPD.

And what you want would open a can of worms, as you probably guessed I would say. If done in the more obvious way, it would make lunges crazy OP.

If, instead, you make strikes always extend as far as possible, like arcade games do, then you end up with A LOT of slidey empty steps when your fighter is already too close to the opponent.

And this is mostly about the built-in step or hooks and uppers. The magnetism that happens due to the opponent false leans is another matter.

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by SUGATA

I am saying the same, except ONE word that you kept silent: ...b/c the strike's range has already been AUTO determined BY AI. THIS is wrong! Animation - this is one thing. Some strikes like Hooks when stationary has built-in step; in close range this step is skipped, on mid range - exists... but this is just an animation , it does not matter how it looks like = it hits in both situations (ranges). May be, we have a bug (false sway in bwd lunge) and we have hit but it was not animated... so sliding helps (magnetism). I.e. it hits ALWAYS , the difference only in animation which solves the visual connecting issues - this is OK. But Hit detection - this is ANOTHER thing! Hit detection MUST NOT to be AUTO ADJUSTED b/c of AI - based on the lunge's timing the AI determines hit or not. It must to be a result of player's skill, but skill which is POSSIBLE in this situation. From gameplay point of view - again, this is NOT a "reward" for well timed lunge b/c this IMPOSSIBLE to time Lunge just after Strike begins on reaction, especially in online. > There must to be ONE Max Strike range of Hit detection - the same for standing still and retreating opponent. And it must not to be changed b/c of any factors.

Look at my reply Phillyboy, above, as to why the arcade option of "always max range" would suck.

Also, just because something can't be done fully on reaction, it doesn't mean that takes no skill. Hardly anything in the stand-up can be fully reacted to, yet, it clearly takes skill. Anticipation is an important part of the meta, too. There is no way around that.

[Phillyboi207]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

I don't think the time of the input should take precedence over the strike being thrown. If you buff your input a bit sooner or later during your block stun, for instance, that should not matter, imo. EDIT: I had missinterpreted your question. So... you think it's about the input. I actually don't know if it is. I suspect it is about when the strike actually starts. That's a good question for GPD. And what you want would open a can of worms, as you probably guessed I would say. If done in the more obvious way, it would make lunges crazy OP. If, instead, you make strikes always extend as far as possible, like arcade games do, then you end up with A LOT of slidey empty steps when your fighter is already too close to the opponent. And this is mostly about the built-in step or hooks and uppers. The magnetism that happens due to the opponent false leans is another matter.

Well i’d say leave it as is far as fwd moving straights/overhands

But hooks, uppercuts, and kicks require a torque in your hips which makes the sliding look really fake when it happens to those strikes. If someone threw it them while sliding they’d either lose their balance or lose most of the power from the strike.


Or would it be possible to give us control on those extra steps vs it being built in. As it is currently I have to hold back to not do an extra step. Shouldnt the default be no extra step but you can hold forward to add the step after the strike?

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phillyboi207

Well i’d say leave it as is far as fwd moving straights/overhands But hooks, uppercuts, and kicks require a torque in your hips which makes the sliding look really fake when it happens to those strikes. If someone threw it them while sliding they’d either lose their balance or lose most of the power from the strike. Or would it be possible to give us control on those extra steps vs it being built in. As it is currently I have to hold back to not do an extra step. Shouldnt the default be no extra step but you can hold forward to add the step after the strike?

The funny thing is that I actually think it doesn't look so bad for the head kicks. I mean, it is noticeable for us. We know that's an extra range. But that hop actually happens in some advancing head kicks. Anyways... this impression of mine is not a biggy.

The idea of allowing it to happen only for some strikes, in order to minimize the bad looks is pretty good.

We have been discussing some alternatives in the GC chat. My main point is that the way forward should be about refining the system, not overhauling it. The folks who say "the foundation is shoddy" simply don't understand the foundation. I'm not saying that the claim that the foundation is bad implies one's ignorance about it. I'm saying that it just so happens that the guys who say that are ones who don't understand it. It is entirely possible that someone will come along with a knowledge of the foundation and argue well against it. It just hasn't happened, yet.

And about giving players the control of the built-in step for hooks and uppers... I don't think that is good, because then you'd lose the nuance between the small and the big step. This one really is tricky. I think it is one specific point where it will simply be too hard to please everyone, beause I think the best option is inherently counter-intuitive. BUT, I think the built-in step could be refined in some ways, to feel less akward than it does now. As some have pointed out, there is a sense of a weird speed disparity (or rather, undue parity). I think that can be addressed for better looks, without breaking the gameplay, hopefully.

[SUGATA]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

Look at my reply Phillyboy, above, as to why the arcade option of "always max range" would suck. Also, just because something can't be done fully on reaction, it doesn't mean that takes no skill. Hardly anything in the stand-up can be fully reacted to, yet, it clearly takes skill. Anticipation is an important part of the meta, too. There is no way around that.

This one does not have answer to my post.

Quote:

f, instead, you make strikes always extend as far as possible, like arcade games do, then you end up with A LOT of slidey empty steps when your fighter is already too close to the opponent.

You dont understand what i am talking about. I am not talking about ugglish animation b/c of different ranges. Btw in arcade fighting games animation is changing depends on range and hit side or be blocked.

I am talking about AUTO adjusting strike range ABOVE ITS MAX RANGE which we have in Neutral state (Default max range) - based on opponent's actions. That this is WRONG.
ONLY PLAYER must to determine/adjust his actions (strike range) based on his opponent's actions by available tools.

[Solid_Altair]

Quote: Originally Posted by SUGATA

This one does not have answer to my post. You dont understand what i am talking about. I am not talking about ugglish animation b/c of different ranges. Btw in arcade fighting games animation is changing depends on range and hit side or be blocked. I am talking about AUTO adjusting strike range ABOVE ITS MAX RANGE which we have in Neutral state (Default max range) - based on opponent's actions. That this is WRONG. ONLY PLAYER must to determine/adjust his actions (strike range) based on his opponent's actions by available tools.

So, your beef is with the kind of magnetism caused by the target false-leaning back?

You're OK with the built-in step on hooks and uppers?

[HereticFighter]

Quote: Originally Posted by Solid_Altair

So, your beef is with the kind of magnetism caused by the target false-leaning back? You're OK with the built-in step on hooks and uppers?

most peoples issue is with the sliding. built in steps can be annoying but they have a set range. there should never be a time when a head kick throws farther than the max forward-moving version. sometimes the extra range is 3+feet, making one single 'step' forward cover nearly 6 feet of range. Its another collision issue. if you lunge too early, the game says you connected because you leaned back a fraction early, when IRL you'd likely still be way out of range, same with the ducking we were talking about in the other thread.