STAMINA Needs To Play Bigger Role In Clinch

[Boiler569]

Decided to play some Quick Match last night to mess around with new mechanics, specifically single collar clinch strikes.

The first few guys I played were respectful so I finished them pretty quickly. But there was one dude who went for the good ole Fake Glove Touch to start the fight....and I knew I needed to torture this bum.

Fast-Forward to Round 3. I've taken him down (and gotten back up) 6 times ---- stunned/wobbled him several times ---- allowed him to get up from Cage Finish The Fight twice ---

Worked his body a ton so I wouldn't get a knockout and the torture could continue ----

Towards the end I literally had 85%+ stamina and he had <20%.

I put him into a Single Collar. I go for a knee to the body, but he is able to ESCAPE single collar before my knee hits him. Even though I have WAYYYY more Stamina than him.

I put him into Single Collar again. I go for an immediate Elbow. He is able to escape SC before my elbow hits him! Again, when I have nearly 90% stamina and he has less than 20%!

I know when going against an "immediate clinch escaper" like that you sit on your denials once you get into the clinch. But I wanted to experiment to see if such a huge stamina discrepency meant anything...and really...it didn't seem to.

Another example --- back in UFC 2, knees to the body would stop clinch transitions; and elbows to the head would stop clinch transitions IF there was a large stamina discrepancy (but if stamina was equal, people could transition through an elbow; though they'd still be struck).

Currently it seems like people can transition through both types of strikes much easier than before. You can def. still stop their transition in clinch with those strikes but it's much more difficult than before.

I don't mind the clinch being fluid and in fact it NEEDS more fluidity ... so I'm not really asking that people just 'freeze up' in the clinch if they have poor stamina/etc.

BUT....if I have 80%+ stamina, they have <20% stamina....I get them into single collar and fire off an immediate elbow or knee....does anyone else agree that, if they try to transition THROUGH that strike rather than block it....their transition should be stopped cold? Or at least --- they should take some serious damage (potentially a health event) during the clinch break?? Sort of a Vulnerability Event?


There is a lot to discuss and improve upon in the clinch, but the first place to start is STAMINA. It just seems that having a very low gas tank compared to opponent doesn't really matter in terms of speed of transitions and ability to transition through strikes.

Look fwd to hearing some thoughts !

[RomeroXVII]

Quote: Originally Posted by Boiler569

Decided to play some Quick Match last night to mess around with new mechanics, specifically single collar clinch strikes. The first few guys I played were respectful so I finished them pretty quickly. But there was one dude who went for the good ole Fake Glove Touch to start the fight....and I knew I needed to torture this bum. Fast-Forward to Round 3. I've taken him down (and gotten back up) 6 times ---- stunned/wobbled him several times ---- allowed him to get up from Cage Finish The Fight twice --- Worked his body a ton so I wouldn't get a knockout and the torture could continue ---- Towards the end I literally had 85%+ stamina and he had <20%. I put him into a Single Collar. I go for a knee to the body, but he is able to ESCAPE single collar before my knee hits him. Even though I have WAYYYY more Stamina than him. I put him into Single Collar again. I go for an immediate Elbow. He is able to escape SC before my elbow hits him! Again, when I have nearly 90% stamina and he has less than 20%! I know when going against an "immediate clinch escaper" like that you sit on your denials once you get into the clinch. But I wanted to experiment to see if such a huge stamina discrepency meant anything...and really...it didn't seem to. Another example --- back in UFC 2, knees to the body would stop clinch transitions; and elbows to the head would stop clinch transitions IF there was a large stamina discrepancy (but if stamina was equal, people could transition through an elbow; though they'd still be struck). Currently it seems like people can transition through both types of strikes much easier than before. You can def. still stop their transition in clinch with those strikes but it's much more difficult than before. I don't mind the clinch being fluid and in fact it NEEDS more fluidity ... so I'm not really asking that people just 'freeze up' in the clinch if they have poor stamina/etc. BUT....if I have 80%+ stamina, they have <20% stamina....I get them into single collar and fire off an immediate elbow or knee....does anyone else agree that, if they try to transition THROUGH that strike rather than block it....their transition should be stopped cold? Or at least --- they should take some serious damage (potentially a health event) during the clinch break?? Sort of a Vulnerability Event? There is a lot to discuss and improve upon in the clinch, but the first place to start is STAMINA. It just seems that having a very low gas tank compared to opponent doesn't really matter in terms of speed of transitions and ability to transition through strikes. Look fwd to hearing some thoughts !

Absolutely agree with most of what you said terms of stamina advantages. However if you do have lower stamina your transitions are slower.

One thing I'd be down for is a reduction in Stamina drain for denials. One denial pass doesn't make a somebody dreadfully tired, same thing in the clinch when you deny one transition and land one knee, it's pretty much GG.

[Boiler569]

Good point. Stamina technically does affect clinch some right now, but it doesn't seem very pronounced especially in the extreme example I gave from last night where stamina differential was like 85% vs. 20%.

If it doesn't make a 'huge' difference there....it probably makes no difference at all for a more realistic example you'd actually see in a competitive fight, such as 80% stamina Fighter A vs. 70% stamina Fighter B.

I agree that clinch denials probably take too much stamina away --- would rather that be toned down a little bit, but REPLACED with extra vulnerability to strikes.

So if you deny a transition attempt or two, your strikes can do much more damage.

I see there being 3 'penalties' for messing up in the clinch:

* Stamina Loss --- probably need to tone this down, but don't want to totally get rid of it.

* Grapple Advantage --- I think this is fine where it is, if you deny someone you get a nearly undeniable transition/takedown. I'm sure it could be tweaked but I'm OK with keeping it as is for now

* Strike Vulnerability ---- I don't even think there is strike vulnerability built into Clinch Strikes (???) --- but would be cool to add it in one way or another.


Would also like to see Low Stamina affect GA and Strike Vulnerability a lot more than it already does.


Would really give the GRINDER perk and those with strong Grapple Stamina stats a better shot against the Conors of the world lol

[SwedishTouch76]

How is the stamina period in this game now? Still havent bought it. Waiting till it's cheap. Are you rewarded for fighting at a controlled pace and letting your opponent spam? Or is the reward still minimal?

[raypace1]

The thing is, the stamina advantage would be in effect if it were escape vs denial... But when you are going for a strike, you do not have complete control of the clinch.. I'm the grapple battle you are in position to control and when striking your focus turns more to the hit..


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[raypace1]

Quote: Originally Posted by SwedishTouch76

How is the stamina period in this game now? Still havent bought it. Waiting till it's cheap. Are you rewarded for fighting at a controlled pace and letting your opponent spam? Or is the reward still minimal?

O absolutely... They def wear themselves out pushing at you and whiffing strikes and when you finally do land shots they have a big impact...


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[RomeroXVII]

Quote: Originally Posted by SwedishTouch76

How is the stamina period in this game now? Still havent bought it. Waiting till it's cheap. Are you rewarded for fighting at a controlled pace and letting your opponent spam? Or is the reward still minimal?

IIRC game is about $30. And yes, finally people can be severely punished if they go crazy in the early rounds with their stamina.

[Good Grappler]

Stopped reading when I read “...I put him in the clinch and threw an immediate knee...”.

Then for some reason I started reading again, and saw “put him in the clinch again and threw an immediate elbow”.

You should never throw a strike immediately after clinching. It should always be clinch —> SETTLE —> work.

By settle, I mean prepare for a denial. After you clinch someone (or get them to the ground), ALWAYS settle into position first, hit a denial, establish control... THEN look to strike or transition.

Honestly, you should look to settle every few seconds, regardless of whether you land strikes or not. So even if you land two consecutive knees, fight the urge to land a third knee. Against good players, you’ll never land three in a row anyways. Just land your damage, re-establish control, then work again.

I personally settle between every single knee, strike, or transition. And if they block a strike or transition, I won’t do anything til I deny/block something and re establish GA. Oh and remember, two consecutive blocks in the clinch equals a (practically) free TD, so stay mindful of that. In the clinch, I also use the left stick constantly to cause shifting movements, to make settling more complicated for my opponent. Those sudden jerky movements in the clinch pull false denial inputs out of 98.7% of the human population.

So really, all grappling exchanges should look like this:
Attain position—>settle—->work—->settle—->work—>settle etc

Every once in a while, skip a “work” phase and settle for double time. If you’re up on points and in a dominant position, a minute off the clock is a minute in the bank.

Plus keep in mind, every time you go for a finish and don’t get it, the odds of getting the next one decrease. The more established your control is, the higher likelihood of getting the finish when you do choose to go for it. So be patient grass hoppa. The finish will present itself if you stick to the fundamentals, and even if it doesn’t, you’ll win a decision.