Clinch Pre Deny Issue

[bmlimo]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZombieRommel

IMO the "original" clinch we had for most of the game's life cycle was the most balanced in terms of ease of denial. Right now it's probably a little too easy to deny on reaction -- I can do it most of the time, especially when people get predictable, but not 100%. If people mix me up with strikes or vary their timing, they can still get me in it. But "new animation" clinch (with the un-patched denial window) was way too hard to deny on reaction and by far the most imbalanced version of the clinch we've had thus far. So IMO: Original clinch looked the worst but was most balanced "New animation" clinch looked the best but was the most imbalanced Current clinch sits right in the middle in terms of looks and balance I think your last suggestion is the best one (to give a visual tell). And maybe marginally reduce the denial window, by a couple frames. I think what GPD did is he made more of the animation linger in the actual clinch visual state (instead of the ambiguous state that looks like a punch), so IMO it's way more fair than before he adjusted it. But due to how much of the animation occupies that "I'm grabbing you" state now, the denial window could probably be shortened A LITTLE (not a lot). Your other suggestions aren't very realistic (the cooldown). We are playing an MMA sim and not a MOBA. I had personally suggested cooldowns and such before to GPD (for other things) but he generally wants any changes to align to reality, which is a mindset I respect and that I've personally come to favor also. Because it gives the gameplay a sort of intuitive uniformity instead of forcing the player to learn disjointed and arbitrary rules.

Also, clinch entry dont have grappling metter, with a cool down in a missed deny... would be the most inbalance thing of this game

[SUGATA]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZombieRommel

If people recognize who I am (on my alt account), or when I use my main...about 75% try to clinch up with me to take me down. The text I bolded above from GPD is 100% correct. If you have good reactions, there is zero point in holding the predeny. Doing so has always been dangerous due to the susceptibility to strikes, and it's especially dangerous now because you can no longer flick down to deny takedowns. The only way it would make sense to pre-deny is if you got some special hard-coded bonus for doing it. Like maybe if you pre-deny, you'd open up a window for a free strike on the break that you don't get if you just reaction-flick. But right now if your reactions are good, you can achieve the exact same end result as if you were holding, so the predeny is really only warranted against people who are 100% predictable, or if there is lag that will make reaction impossible.

You are talking about Neutral state - of course this is not so necessary.

But if you read my post above - i was talking about NOT Neutral state (I'm already used that GPD is not reading my Complains about mechanics issues not reading b/c he is too sure about it and dont see many bugs on the a surface or donbt want to seem for ex terribly BUGGY and unbalanced new Dash/Lunge/Pivot system i was talking about several pages ago, but i hope that you will read with open eyes):

Quote:

Now, i can in Stand Up constantly HOLD Grapple Block (R2+RS Up or Down) all the time even with lunging or walking or during strikes recovery - and NEVER will be failed to Clinch or TD attempt. This is named CONSTANT Pre denial. It does NOT require ANY skill or mind game! Even NO Stamina costs for this.

It means that after throwing Kick on its Recovery phase or another long duration move or during Stun - you can NOT perform ANYTHING But you can buffer your input and you JUST AFTER Kick's Hit phase on its recovery keep holding Grapple block and it will 100% and w/o ANY skill save you from being TD'ed even when you have the smallest denial window (like 2-5 frames) which is VERY difficult to succeed on reaction.
=> So, this Pre-denying in NOT Neutral state will NEGLECT all opponent's genious preparations ad setups for his TD!

There is a DISBALANCE:
defender does not need any skill and precise or setups (penalty for a 2 sec for only one selection - TD or Clinch denial is a joke) =/= but Attacking grappler needs.

So , we have Low risk/high reward for defender here = unbalance.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Quote: Originally Posted by SUGATA

You are talking about Neutral state - of course this is not so necessary. But if you read my post above - i was talking about NOT Neutral state (I'm already used that GPD is not reading my Complains about mechanics issues not reading b/c he is too sure about it and dont see many bugs on the a surface or donbt want to seem for ex terribly BUGGY and unbalanced new Dash/Lunge/Pivot system i was talking about several pages ago, but i hope that you will read with open eyes): It means that after throwing Kick on its Recovery phase or another long duration move or during Stun - you can NOT perform ANYTHING But you can buffer your input and you JUST AFTER Kick's Hit phase on its recovery keep holding Grapple block and it will 100% and w/o ANY skill save you from being TD'ed even when you have the smallest denial window (like 2-5 frames) which is VERY difficult to succeed on reaction. => So, this Pre-denying in NOT Neutral state will NEGLECT all opponent's genious preparations ad setups for his TD! There is a DISBALANCE: defender does not need any skill and precise or setups (penalty for a 2 sec for only one selection - TD or Clinch denial is a joke) =/= but Attacking grappler needs. So , we have Low risk/high reward for defender here = unbalance.

It's not low risk though.

By pre-denying TDs during strike recovery, you take away your ability to react to and deny a clinch attempt and you take away the ability to block a head strike.

By pre-denying during strike recovery, you are putting yourself in a 50/50 situation where if you win you end up in the neutral state, and if you lose you end up in a submissive grappling position.

These odds are likely worse that not pre-denying and reaction denying instead.

So this is not a disbalance.

[Phillyboi207]

Quote: Originally Posted by GameplayDevUFC

It's not low risk though. By pre-denying TDs during strike recovery, you take away your ability to react to and deny a clinch attempt and you take away the ability to block a head strike. By pre-denying during strike recovery, you are putting yourself in a 50/50 situation where if you win you end up in the neutral state, and if you lose you end up in a submissive grappling position. These odds are likely worse that not pre-denying and reaction denying instead. So this is not a disbalance.

I think the issue here is with kicks

Guy can get caught mid kick and still pre- deny TDs which then makes it hard to punish with anything besides your own kick. And if you have a grappler odds are his kicks will be too slow to punish.

Everything you said makes sense for punches but being able to pre-deny kicks during recovery doesnt seem too balanced.

[SUGATA]

Quote: Originally Posted by GameplayDevUFC

It's not low risk though. By pre-denying TDs during strike recovery, you take away your ability to react to and deny a clinch attempt and you take away the ability to block a head strike. By pre-denying during strike recovery, you are putting yourself in a 50/50 situation where if you win you end up in the neutral state, and if you lose you end up in a submissive grappling position. These odds are likely worse that not pre-denying and reaction denying instead. So this is not a disbalance.

It is.

And it is 100% unbalanced.

By pre-denying TDs during strike recovery:
+ yes from the last patch we have 1-2 sec penalty to switch Grapple block (GB) level = this element we have in Dynamic Grappling Mechanics (DGM) on the Ground as Mistimed GB, which blocking to swithc GB direction for some time.
This is right and just ONE ELEMENT from DGM we have on the Ground.
I am talking about moving forward and take another elements from there. b/c W/O THEM (w/o the ENTIRE DGM) the grappling in stand up and Clinch is NOT complete and unbalanced.

BUT

On this Mistimed GB in Stand up is not complete - On the Ground if we mistime our GB we can not GB at all (not Clinch, not TD) so NO SPAM.
In Stand up with pre-deny holding we are doing aka SPAMMING GB ANYTIME. This is wrong and unbalanced, b/c neglects opponent's setup actions.

- we do NOT have ability to Block strike and GB you said - yes, but THE SAME we have on the Ground again. And at the same time on the Ground we have FULL DGM with all actions requires timing and strict directions. So this does not give the balance.
I dont see why Stand up must to have rigid primitive cutted DGM!
GB in Stand up and Clinch must always and everywhere to be ON REACTION as we have it on th Ground, but not on holding pre-deny.


- i am talking about another thing - i will repeat again: Pre deny by holding in stand up ALLOWS to deny Transitions with TIGHEST window SIMPLY w/o skill , w/o reaction.

- you do not need to loose/sacrifice your Block b/c when you are during your strike recovery and the opponent is starting his TD you SEE this and YOU KNOW that you dont need a Block now!! And then you just pre deny and hold GB to EASILY deny his hardly setuped TD! = NO BALANCE! = DISBALANCE!

Even more, from point of view of REALISM - how is it possible to have Denial conditions (aka Pre deny holding) for the fighter IRL during his Strike recovery state when he is off balanced and his mind is about his current strike?!
From Realism point of view Strike Blocking can be holded (rise up and hold your hands = block), but Grappling block is always REACTIVE irl!
_______________________________________


Missed Dynamic Grappling mechanics (DGM) elements in the Clinch (no in Clinch, but exists in Ground):
1. No GB Reversal – so, Perfect swoop only for decrease Stamina cost.
2. No Arm traps (Grapple strike counters)
3. No Momentums. Only one: [If I go from sub MT to SC] I can momentum Single and Double leg TD (not for all TDs/Throws; not for dom MT fighter.
4. No Context GMs
5. No Persistent transitions (PT).
6. GM Reversal has another input (L2+RS instead of L2+R2+RS), so can be pre-emptive w/o any penalties.
7. No GM Reversals vs Transition - as we have it on Ground (Submission Reversal vs Transition).


Could you explain why these features were cutted from DGM for the Clinch and Standup?


P.S. This is not the first time when i am talking about this. But you dont want to pay attention to this. The same as dont want to hear about current disbalance and issues with new Blocking Lunge/Pivot system...

[FlaccoNumba5]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZombieRommel

IMO the "original" clinch we had for most of the game's life cycle was the most balanced in terms of ease of denial. Right now it's probably a little too easy to deny on reaction -- I can do it most of the time, especially when people get predictable, but not 100%. If people mix me up with strikes or vary their timing, they can still get me in it. But "new animation" clinch (with the un-patched denial window) was way too hard to deny on reaction and by far the most imbalanced version of the clinch we've had thus far. So IMO: Original clinch looked the worst but was most balanced "New animation" clinch looked the best but was the most imbalanced Current clinch sits right in the middle in terms of looks and balance I think your last suggestion is the best one (to give a visual tell). And maybe marginally reduce the denial window, by a couple frames. I think what GPD did is he made more of the animation linger in the actual clinch visual state (instead of the ambiguous state that looks like a punch), so IMO it's way more fair than before he adjusted it. But due to how much of the animation occupies that "I'm grabbing you" state now, the denial window could probably be shortened A LITTLE (not a lot). Your other suggestions aren't very realistic (the cooldown). We are playing an MMA sim and not a MOBA. I had personally suggested cooldowns and such before to GPD (for other things) but he generally wants any changes to align to reality, which is a mindset I respect and that I've personally come to favor also. Because it gives the gameplay a sort of intuitive uniformity instead of forcing the player to learn disjointed and arbitrary rules.

How can we really set up a clinch? Be fr because I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t even think it’s possible to do so.

Also to say the deny is only a “little” too easy is extremely wrong in my opinion. It is much too easy, myself and many others make frequent jokes about how easy clinch denials are. It’s not a “high level player” thing either it’s simply too easy with little consequence for being wrong (subjective I know)

The only thing that changed at the beginning of the patch was a “””new””” animation, the window did not change. Had people given themselves a chance to acclimate to the change I think we would’ve been fine. I believe we had the fast animation for about a week, maybe even less.


At the end of the day my stance is that we DO need a tell that they’re pre denying both clinch and TD. Why? Because it just makes sense, I don’t even feel like I need to explain it further than that. As far as I know every other input has an animation attached why wouldn’t this?

I also understand the rationale that this is a MMA sim (trust me I want sim) but in the end it’s still a video game....and video game things happen. Like what? Like being able to deny TDs after high kicks, or being able to throw a high kick and not only deny the TD but then go as far as putting your opponent in double underhooks. Like those things exist in game, so I don’t see how a cool down is unrealistic in the slightest. Also, cool downs are already in the game so you kinda lost me.

Perhaps the denial window can stay the same as long as we end up getting the new pre deny animation plus a cooldown which I feel while it isn’t realistic, is necessary

[Papadoc60]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZombieRommel

IMO the "original" clinch we had for most of the game's life cycle was the most balanced in terms of ease of denial. Right now it's probably a little too easy to deny on reaction -- I can do it most of the time, especially when people get predictable, but not 100%. If people mix me up with strikes or vary their timing, they can still get me in it. But "new animation" clinch (with the un-patched denial window) was way too hard to deny on reaction and by far the most imbalanced version of the clinch we've had thus far. So IMO: Original clinch looked the worst but was most balanced "New animation" clinch looked the best but was the most imbalanced Current clinch sits right in the middle in terms of looks and balance I think your last suggestion is the best one (to give a visual tell). And maybe marginally reduce the denial window, by a couple frames. I think what GPD did is he made more of the animation linger in the actual clinch visual state (instead of the ambiguous state that looks like a punch), so IMO it's way more fair than before he adjusted it. But due to how much of the animation occupies that "I'm grabbing you" state now, the denial window could probably be shortened A LITTLE (not a lot). Your other suggestions aren't very realistic (the cooldown). We are playing an MMA sim and not a MOBA. I had personally suggested cooldowns and such before to GPD (for other things) but he generally wants any changes to align to reality, which is a mindset I respect and that I've personally come to favor also. Because it gives the gameplay a sort of intuitive uniformity instead of forcing the player to learn disjointed and arbitrary rules.

Probably? A little too easy? Come on man, no one is clinching people even close to reliably. I would say a 10% success rate at most. This is an MMA game and moving into the clinch should err on the side of being too easy as opposed to having to align the moon, stars and planets to grab someone. I know your style is primarily striker, but the current clinch entry is a travesty and shouldn't be underplayed. I genuinely feel bad for the more pure grapplers that I choose to strike against because it's easier than grappling them.

[Phillyboi207]

Quote: Originally Posted by Papadoc60

Probably? A little too easy? Come on man, no one is clinching people even close to reliably. I would say a 10% success rate at most. This is an MMA game and moving into the clinch should err on the side of being too easy as opposed to having to align the moon, stars and planets to grab someone. I know your style is primarily striker, but the current clinch entry is a travesty and shouldn't be underplayed. I genuinely feel bad for the more pure grapplers that I choose to strike against because it's easier than grappling them.

Even as a mediocre player I can say the clinch denial has always been waaay too easy

Imo the goal should be clinching should be bother easy to obtain against pressure/close opponents and easier to get out of in neutral positions. Maybe a muscle modifier for the escapes so it’s practically undeniable while fresh(only in open space)