Submission fighters and the submission system

[Find_the_Door]

Quote: Originally Posted by cal7_11

That’s already in the game bruh

It's already in the game and you can never finish them ever though. Even when my opponent has absolutely no stamina I still can't fill the meter.

[WarMMA]

Quote: Originally Posted by Find_the_Door

It's already in the game and you can never finish them ever though. Even when my opponent has absolutely no stamina I still can't fill the meter.

And it's only in the game to an extent, cuz its not how it needs to be. You should be able to arm trap your opponents postured up strikes directly into submission attempts from the guard and half guard also. The way they have it in this game, its almost useless. You arm trap first, then you have to transition to the sub, which is slow as hell. A competent guy will usually escape before you can even do it. That's why it needs to be arm traps directly into submission attempts. Currently this only seems doable from stacked guard.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Come UFC 4, gates have to go.

We need a completely manual sub system, no invisible clock so we can actually have sub battles play out as short or long as possible. A sub system should be man vs man, not man vs machine vs man.

Stamina has to be accounted for DURING sub attempts

We should control how much pressure/stamina we want to put in a sub attempt, like the EA MMA system.

I think all those ideas helped make sub specialist actually feel dominant in EA MMA as well. When I pick Aoki, I felt like the match would be over in no time if I was in guard. With this game, I don't normally feel that because I have to stamina watch for the strangest little things that drain stamina right now since the ratings alone seem to mean nothing...and the sub system just kinda sucks.

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[OPSPunk]

As bad as they have neglected takedowns. I would agree that submission are worse. The only difference is that there are fewer fighters who rely as heavily on submissions relative to takedowns, but its bad.

I have almost no fear in any position against Werdum, Nelson, Maia, Jacre, Oliveria, Ortega (well actually Ortega does get me sometimes).


One thing that I think might help is if submission for elite submission artist could be made into two or 3 gate submission when a position is denied....maybe make it a power denial.

I also think that they should create either a "power denial/reversal" that would allow guys to take the back. Seated back control is actually difficult to get into and easy to get out of.

If Maia has your back you should feel trapped.

[WarMMA]

Quote: Originally Posted by OPSPunk

As bad as they have neglected takedowns. I would agree that submission are worse. The only difference is that there are fewer fighters who rely as heavily on submissions relative to takedowns, but its bad. I have almost no fear in any position against Werdum, Nelson, Maia, Jacre, Oliveria, Ortega (well actually Ortega does get me sometimes). One thing that I think might help is if submission for elite submission artist could be made into two or 3 gate submission when a position is denied....maybe make it a power denial. I also think that they should create either a "power denial/reversal" that would allow guys to take the back. Seated back control is actually difficult to get into and easy to get out of. If Maia has your back you should feel trapped.

This is why they need to add the body triangle. It should be like a deeper more difficult to escape back mount. The way it should work is it should be an advanced transition from back sitting or back mount for the fighters who have it. Once a fighter transitions to it, it should be more difficult to transition. It should work sort of like the crucifix, where transitions options are limited and you can only transition out into submissive positions. So in the body triangles case, you should only be able to transition out into sub back mount or sub back sitting. That way it will have that "trapped" kind of feeling to it cuz even when you transition out, the guy still has your back.

[OPSPunk]

Quote: Originally Posted by WarMMA

This is why they need to add the body triangle. It should be like a deeper more difficult to escape back mount. The way it should work is it should be an advanced transition from back sitting or back mount for the fighters who have it. Once a fighter transitions to it, it should be more difficult to transition. It should work sort of like the crucifix, where transitions options are limited and you can only transition out into submissive positions. So in the body triangles case, you should only be able to transition out into sub back mount or sub back sitting. That way it will have that "trapped" kind of feeling to it cuz even when you transition out, the guy still has your back.

They need to consider adding additional positional variants . Body triangle, butterfly guard, hi mount, half guard with a wrist trap from behind. Guard riding low, guard riding high. There are so many

[burningxspirit]

the current system is one of the best IMO, the only better system is the EA MMA choke system. For UFC 4 I'd definitely like to see a more back and forth struggle based system, with opportunities to transition in a variety of ways. I think it's a but late in the game to change it completely for UFC3 but it can certainly be expanded on. one thing I'd like to see is the ability for certain fighters to pull a sweep when you have a sub pretty tight and your opponent may escape, you could go for a sweep...like a kimura sweep or a triangle sweep into mounted triangle position. of course that transition should be able to be blocked and reversed and put you in a compromising SUB position.and definitely we need more factors that determine the amount of gates, and as many have said Maia or any of BJJ guy having back mount should feel be an extremely urgent situation. I also like OPs idea of allowing use of the muscle modifier as well.


that said, it frustrates me to hear that so many people think Subs are useless, because the dev's knee jerk reaction will be to make them easy to pull off which they shouldn't be... subs can be dangerous if you use the current system to its potential. I dont even use the RNC/Trianlge into armbar two gate unless I'm desperate. most of my sub wins are 4
-5 gates,and I've always have more sub wins than decisions since UFC 2. I dont think I'm hot **** or anything I just took the time to get better, and didn't stop going for them because they were difficult. you have to be able to simultaneously react and predict gate escapes AMD set traps


of course if your fighting relaxed guy ,crooks,suspect zero (who is the only guy who's non 2 gate subs scare the **** outta me) or lurch or any of the highest of high level players going for subs is a shot in the dark but against most players even very good ones subs CAN be a threat in the current system


here are some good examples of that vs very high level opponents

Subs with Vitor
https://youtu.be/Tz__l2maohg

Lietes
https://youtu.be/SAqnzZkrwo0

Olivera
https://youtu.be/g7k2NKyuT-w
https://youtu.be/utMHJUC9nz4

Usman
https://youtu.be/WbPQoQoFbT0

Serra
https://youtu.be/xwo8M6rxlpk

Compilation of good subs against various level opponents
https://youtu.be/iarRrMi9HYc

Matt Hughes - not a high level opponent but pretty good sub on a decent opponent
https://youtu.be/oYl9GtrJKp0

if you notice, barely any of these subs are reliant on having a stamina advantage. and this is not showing off in any way. I'm pretty good but inconsistent and lose plenty of fights lol even ones I really shouldn't. but I'm just sticking up for this sub system because i think it's pretty good , I just think people dont take the time to really learn what works and get discouraged quickly. you can't practice in the lab the only way to really get good is going for subs against good competition in ranked and keep trying until you get good predicting and reacting on the fly to the many different methods people use to escape.

sorry for the essay (im actually annoyed myself that's it's such a long damn post) but hopefully a few will be inspired to keep trying with the subs because they are effective ,even simply for scoring points and doing damage.

[UFCBlackbelt]

Quote: Originally Posted by burningxspirit

the current system is one of the best IMO, the only better system is the EA MMA choke system. For UFC 4 I'd definitely like to see a more back and forth struggle based system, with opportunities to transition in a variety of ways. I think it's a but late in the game to change it completely for UFC3 but it can certainly be expanded on. one thing I'd like to see is the ability for certain fighters to pull a sweep when you have a sub pretty tight and your opponent may escape, you could go for a sweep...like a kimura sweep or a triangle sweep into mounted triangle position. of course that transition should be able to be blocked and reversed and put you in a compromising SUB position.and definitely we need more factors that determine the amount of gates, and as many have said Maia or any of BJJ guy having back mount should feel be an extremely urgent situation. I also like OPs idea of allowing use of the muscle modifier as well. that said, it frustrates me to hear that so many people think Subs are useless, because the dev's knee jerk reaction will be to make them easy to pull off which they shouldn't be... subs can be dangerous if you use the current system to its potential. I dont even use the RNC/Trianlge into armbar two gate unless I'm desperate. most of my sub wins are 4 -5 gates,and I've always have more sub wins than decisions since UFC 2. I dont think I'm hot **** or anything I just took the time to get better, and didn't stop going for them because they were difficult. you have to be able to simultaneously react and predict gate escapes. of course if your fighting relaxed guy ,crooks,suspect zero (who is the only guy who's non 2 gate subs scare the **** outta me) or lurch or any of the highest of high level players going for subs is a shot in the dark but against most players even very good ones subs CAN be a threat in the current system here are some good examples of that vs very high level opponents Subs with Vitor https://youtu.be/Tz__l2maohg Lietes https://youtu.be/SAqnzZkrwo0 Olivera https://youtu.be/g7k2NKyuT-w https://youtu.be/utMHJUC9nz4 Usman https://youtu.be/WbPQoQoFbT0 Serra https://youtu.be/xwo8M6rxlpk Compilation of good subs against various level opponents https://youtu.be/iarRrMi9HYc Matt Hughes - not a high level opponent but pretty good sub on a decent opponent https://youtu.be/oYl9GtrJKp0 if you notice, barely any of these subs are reliant on having a stamina advantage. and this is not showing off in any way. I'm pretty good but inconsistent and lose plenty of fights lol even ones I really shouldn't. but I'm just sticking up for this sub system because i think it's pretty good , I just think people dont take the time to really learn what works and get discouraged quickly. you can't practice in the lab the only way to really get good is going for subs against good competition in ranked and keep trying until you get good predicting and reacting on the fly to the many different methods people use to escape. sorry for the essay (im actually annoyed myself that's it's such a long damn post) but hopefully a few will be inspired to keep trying with the subs because they are effective ,even simply for scoring points and doing damage.

Subs are near useless at top level play and in their current state are terrible, which means they need to be buffed. At top level play positional changes are huge, so if you have someone in your guard, shoot a nice triangle but end up in side control, you've made a huge mistake and have nothing to show for it.

One of the only people who has actually gotten me in trouble with submissions is Big Cee, who's always obsessed about submissions since day 1. Most players will use grappling for either damage, control or stamina drain (papadoc). Or they will be very striking heavy (preunited) or a mix of both, but I almost never see top guys throwing subs unless they are two gate clinch subs.