Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

[strawberryshortcake]

Hoping to give this topic a little bit more exposure. Moderator do as you will.

I normally don't start new threads. But hopefully this topic is applicable here in this specific forum. Decided best to give it is own thread, and not to continue to clutter the other thread topic here: http://www.operationsports.com/forum...as-ps4-10.html

My Concern: In studio motion capture "acting" session lacks the adrenaline rush found during real life game time reactions. And is there a way for studios, and in our case MLB the Show, to fix this?

In the thread above, I mentioned the pitcher's follow through and its lack of umph, force, strength and drive seen in the posted video from the above link. Bcruise was nice enough to post a video showing max pitch speed to hopefully give a better example that matches real life pitcher's movement. My response was that the ball speed was more realistic, but something was still off in the pitcher's delivery. It still lack that strong follow-through. I also mentioned something about a "little league toss" vs a "professional baseball pitch."

The pitcher's animation in The Show simply doesn't look like he's throwing a 95 mph fastball, or a major league pitch. Because the game is great already, any improvements would continue to elevate the game. And I'm hoping the team would further polish this aspect of the game to further increase the realism factor.

Below includes youtube videos from:
(A) Bcruise's youtube video (PS3) MLB the Show 14 - pitcher's follow through still lacks the umph, strong force, velocity. Notice the arm motion.
(B) Major League real life pitching motion - notice the strong follow through with the arm and body.
(C) Proyakuu Spirits to illustrate a more realistic and better pitcher's follow through (notice the arm motion, and body motion). The pitcher's animation captured showcases a stronger resemblance to real life.
(D) Madden's Motion Capture
(E) MLB the Show Motion Capture Session with Joe Mauer - OS member/user seanjeezy brought up a point that is of importance, and that is if the motion capture actor half-asses it, then that will be reflected in the game. The developers can only do so much with what they have been given during the mo-cap sessions. I made a few time marks on Joe Mauer's motion captured moments. The real life in game adrenaline rush is not apparent during Mauer's motion capture session simply based on those selected time marks.
(F) Joe Mauer's Homerun Swing
(G) Catcher's reaction to wild pitches - simply compare the very first reaction to Joe Mauer's in studio motion capture session (mark at 0:41)




PS3 Version of MLB the Show 14
Appreciate bcruise for posting a video of the PS3 version of The Show.

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/amz6H8u4Oj0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

.... Definitely better than what I see normally posted for MLB the Show videos. The speed of ball is definitely more realistic.

However, the pitcher's follow through still looks a little on the slow side. Notice specifically the arm motion, it's a little on the slow side. It has a "warm up" toss pitching speed/action rather than an in game "pitching" speed/action. It's lacking the umph, force, strong, quick follow through.

Pitcher's follow through arm motion

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/GNtcuV0yTYc" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Its a problem with motion capture, if a guy half-asses it in his mocap session it will be reflected in the game. The devs can artificially speed up the delivery though, I believe a couple years ago they went through a lot of the old windups and added more whip and speed.

Proyakuu Spirits Baseball - Pitcher's Motion Follow Through

I'll have to find out about the Madden Mo-Caps articles later, unless you or anyone else has a direct link to it.

I guess I should bring up other previous video game baseball to illustrate better pitcher's follow through, whip motions, etc. I think most of the pitchers' in Proyakuu Spirits do show a more realistic follow through (e.g. strong follow through, force, speed, strong whip, strong leg kicks, the entire body into the pitch, etc. Pitching is about using the entire body....). Hopefully this shows that it can be done in a video game. The following are just random videos I found on youtube. I was hoping to see a more realistic change in the PS4 versions of the Show.

Start at the 3:00 mark and onward
<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/buxAxjFq_Vo" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

Start at the 3:30 mark and onward
<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/1v6WgqAvNGQ" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>


Start at the 5:58 mark and onward
<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/SDx9YEYK2yI" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

If you read up on how Madden does their Mo-Cap, (yes, I realize two different companies) but the way they have to do the tech on Mo-Cap is very complex. NOTHING in the video game making process is simple.

Well, short typed version..... Madden does their Mo-Cap at a big studio in Canada, then they gotta polish the captures and get the captures to where they want them (functionality wise)... THEN THAT info gets sent to Tiburon down in Florida and THEY work with the info to get the proper action and speed of motion for whatever they're working with for whatever they're trying to do with it.. Needless to say, it's a process. And I imagine the MoCap process for TS and SCEA:SD is no different.

Madden's Motion Capture
<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/FMsCnrfIpg0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>


MLB The Show Motion Capture with Joe Mauer

@0:41 mark: Joe Mauer's motion capture reaction to a pitch in dirt
@1:34 mark: Joe Mauer's motion capture fielding reaction
@2:38 mark: Joe Mauer's motion capture swing

Joe Mauer being the cover boy for MLB the Show 10, I would have thought he would give a little bit more "in-game adrenaline effort." Obviously these are just sample clips, and may not be a reflection of the entire mo-cap session. His in studio motion capture catcher's reaction, fielding reaction, and swing follow through and reaction is "slow." Is this truly the problem with motion captures. MLB The Show's team can only do what they can, based on the performance of the actor?

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/1DHecEJW830" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>


Joe Mauer's Real Life Homerun Swing
<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/agblFKJV2T0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>


Catcher's in game reaction to wild pitches
<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/KDZX525CSvw" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

[zrtelford]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

I have never seen gameplay of that Japanese game before. It obviously is lacking in textures and lighting graphically, but I agree the overall animations are much more fluid and realistic. Pretty neat comparison.

[PsychoBulk]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

PYS certainly has some sweet pitching motions ill give it that...as for the rest of it, it makes you realise how good The Show looks.

[Flaxseed Oil]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

This post nailed it!

The pitching motions in The Show have been an eyesore for a long time. The batting stances look great, but the pitching motions are awful.

When you have graphics this good, and animations this bad, it looks awkward.


Look at Generic Pitching Motion #1 - it's been in the game since like 1997. Awful.

[ty5oke]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

I agree 100%. This has bugged me for a while now but never took the time to articulate it this well.

[seanjeezy]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

Great post, here's another vid:

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/a4GlKXJ-y1Q" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>


Since the mocap cameras only pick up on objects wearing the "ping pong balls", I wonder if it would be feasible to install a sock net and have the hitters hit off a machine or live pitching. And for the pitchers, wouldn't throwing to a catcher be a fairly easy thing to set up? I have no idea, just throwing it out there.

PYS certainly has some sweet pitching motions ill give it that...as for the rest of it, it makes you realise how good The Show looks.

A next-gen PYS using fox engine (MGS 5 engine, used for PES and other Konami games too) would look as good, maybe even better, than The Show. PS3 is no contest though.

[dgrfan88]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

I agree as well, although some of the newer animations they have added over the last two have gotten better in this aspect,(see Jose Fernandez) as well as the arm action. One other video you should post is that of mlb2k7. IMHO, the pitching motions in that title are even better then PYS, (King Felix comes to mind). Sabathia looks great in this video of 2k7;

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d4byQKiEaS4

[Flaxseed Oil]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

MLB 2k7 looks almost as good as MLB 14 the Show on PS4.

The lighting in that game was incredible...still my favorite game of all time. I had about a 10 year franchise going with the Yankees.

[Cubs1984Nostaglia]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

MLB 2k7 looks almost as good as MLB 14 the Show on PS4.

The lighting in that game was incredible...still my favorite game of all time. I had about a 10 year franchise going with the Yankees.

Holy **** I forgot how much I miss Jon Miller and Joe Morgan (more Miller than Morgan). This current The Show broadcast sucks (sorry guys, just my opinion)

[dgrfan88]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

Holy **** I forgot how much I miss Jon Miller and Joe Morgan (more Miller than Morgan). This current The Show broadcast sucks (sorry guys, just my opinion)

Although I think the commentary is just showing it's age, it absolutely does not suck. Nothing in the Show sucks. It's easily the most complete and best baseball game to have been made. The point of this discussion is to highlight little tweaks that can be made to make even that much better.

[Cubs1984Nostaglia]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

Although I think the commentary is just showing it's age, it absolutely does not suck. Nothing in the Show sucks. It's easily the most complete and best baseball game to have been made. The point of this discussion is to highlight little tweaks that can be made to make even that much better.

Yeah and I apologize for turning it negative, I am just not a fan of Vasgersian, Lyons or Karros. I absolutely love Jon Miller so I wish he still did video games.

[dgrfan88]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

Yeah and I apologize for turning it negative, I am just not a fan of Vasgersian, Lyons or Karros. I absolutely love Jon Miller so I wish he still did video games.

I can understand that...

[Cubs1984Nostaglia]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

Is something a dev or Russell can offer some insight on?

[tnixen]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

And this game even has the rosin bag on the pitchers mound lol

Apparently this is not possible yet in MLB The Show even on PS4. And those pitcher and and catcher animations really look fantastic when you compare it to MLB The Show!

But I am sure MLB The Show will catch up to this games animations someday and maybe even add the rosin bag too.

[Shakedowncapo]

Re: Concerns: Motion Capture: In Studio vs. Real Life Game Time Reactions

MLB 2k7 looks almost as good as MLB 14 the Show on PS4.

The lighting in that game was incredible...still my favorite game of all time. I had about a 10 year franchise going with the Yankees.

More times than not I agree with your posts, but I can't roll with you on this one. The fact is 2K7 was running at <20fps most of the time, so while it does look great it just can't compare to the overall look and feel of 1080p 60FPS MLB 14'.

Now, in regards to the pitching animations...The Show team has been well aware of this issue, as we've beaten it into their skulls the last 4 years....Ever since "Batting stance guy" was doing the stances.

In my opinion, the changes to the player models will come with new pitching animations, so when we get one, we'll get the other. They might not be mutually exclusive to each other but they know we want both and have put off both for some time now. It just makes sense to do both at the same time and rebuild now as the generation is new.