speed or .obp?

[Mitchrapp]

Re: speed or .obp?

I'm on the fence about it but the theory that you put your best OBP #1 followed by the next best OBP #2 and so forth..it's a sound strategy. No one really uses though..as far as Miggy, he'll rake and drive in runs regardless where's he's at whether that 1, 9 or anywhere in between.

[nick_sr]

Re: speed or .obp?

Speed kills. Give me speed all day. If he gets on, its basically an automatic leadoff double with no outs and your big boys coming up. Also, makes any sacrafices much easier. If you have a team that is built on pitching and your lineup isn't that potent, those speedy leadoff guys make a huge difference in scrapping across any runs you can get. Single or a walk, Steal 2nd. Bunt him over to 3rd. Sac fly. 1-0. In fact, I set up my team using this strategy. I make sure my 3 hole hitter is a left handed batter so he can pull the ball to right field on either a ground ball or deep fly out to get my leadoff guy home from 3rd after my 2 hole hitter has bunted him over.

Took your advice and it doesn't work! My lefty is hitting below .200 since I moved him into the third hole smh

[HighCmpPct]

Re: speed or .obp?

Well for the Show sake I'll take speed all day as .OBP is purely user based so speed is clearly the more important option, because you are in control so your just as likely to walk with player a as with player b regardless of who they are.

Now as far as IRL I need a mix really, with a slight favor towards .OBP. I have no problem batting my best hitter 2nd, unless he's my best power hitter then he must bat 3rd or 4th so his hrs have the most chance of doing as much damage as possible.

I also look for the same thing in a 9 hole hitter that I do a leadoff guy(AL obviously) as it provides all kind of options really.

[HighCmpPct]

Re: speed or .obp?

Took your advice and it doesn't work! My lefty is hitting below .200 since I moved him into the third hole smh

He actually never said he would have a good average, all of his examples drive in runs without getting a base hit. It is a sound strategy for later on in the games, or if you have a crazy good pitching staff and a weak lineup.

[Friar Fanatic]

Re: speed or .obp?

Im never this concerned about whats happening in the 1st inning as thats the only time you're guaranteed to have your lead off hitter bat lead off. Its also been shown with stats that what cardnialbird7 says is how to optimize the line up and the way you presented it is the old school way of thought.

The number 2 guy gets more Ab's and getting on base (clog bases isnt even a real thing either, id rather have men on base than a speedy guy with no one to hit him in) Its a matter of preference but there are numbers to suggest what would theoretically would offer better numbers. This is just gonna turn into a war of old school new school debate that traditionalists and sabrheads will disagree on.

You seem to be missing the point. If you have two guys who bat 1 and 2 who can consistently get on base then you want your best overall hitter to bat third to get the chance to drive them in. If he bats second the possibilites of runners to be on base decreased. The 8th, 9th (sometimes pitchers) and 1st batters have a chance to be on base compared to the first and second hitters.

If my team had Choo, Everth Cabrera and David Ortiz/Fielder I would not bat Ortiz/Fielder second. I would bat them third since batting behind the first two give them much more RBI chances than batting second.

]LaRussa batted power guys 2nd plenty of times....Chris Duncan, Jim Edmonds, Larry Walker, Allen Craig, etc. Rarely, did he put some speedy/contact guy in the 2 hole unless they had a really good OBP.[/B] He used Renteria in the 2 hole a little bit from 2002-2004, but he preferred him in the 6 or 7 hole to drive in runs. Matheny batted Beltran 2nd the past 2 years.

When did I say he never used a power guy second? We were talking about using "the best overall hitter second" in which case this would be Albert Pujols. He has hit in the 2nd spot 6 times in his CAREER.

[MLB Bob]

Re: speed or .obp?

You seem to be missing the point. If you have two guys who bat 1 and 2 who can consistently get on base then you want your best overall hitter to bat third to get the chance to drive them in. If he bats second the possibilites of runners to be on base decreased. The 8th, 9th (sometimes pitchers) and 1st batters have a chance to be on base compared to the first and second hitters.

If my team had Choo, Everth Cabrera and David Ortiz/Fielder I would not bat Ortiz/Fielder second. I would bat them third since batting behind the first two give them much more RBI chances than batting second.



When did I say he never used a power guy second? We were talking about using "the best overall hitter second" in which case this would be Albert Pujols. He has hit in the 2nd spot 6 times in his CAREER.

Nope I get the point and the numbers disagree with you. feel free to do some reading on the subject instead of going by what youve been fed your whole life. Your #2 guys gets more ABs during a season. No matter how good your supposed #1 and #2 guys are, in your scenario you are only accounting for the 3 out of 10 times they actually get a hit. Not every hit is a double triple or home run either. the numbers have been know to show that over a full season its better to have your best hitter (not best power threat) batting 2nd. Most dont do it and would get chastised considerably if they did because baseball is too set in its ways. Im not arguing with you...I have my opinion, based on studies and what i read, you have yours and I disagree...but it has nothing to do with the fact I dont understand the point

[Hender3]

Re: speed or .obp?

I like speed. I play as the Reds so Billy Hamilton (fastest man in the game) is my lead off leader. He is batting .270 I think.. I would like it to be better but I will take it. I like getting him on with Votto, Phillips, and Bruce behind him. Billy usually steals second and 3rd a lot

[Friar Fanatic]

Re: speed or .obp?

Nope I get the point and the numbers disagree with you. feel free to do some reading on the subject instead of going by what youve been fed your whole life. Your #2 guys gets more ABs during a season. No matter how good your supposed #1 and #2 guys are, in your scenario you are only accounting for the 3 out of 10 times they actually get a hit. Not every hit is a double triple or home run either. the numbers have been know to show that over a full season its better to have your best hitter (not best power threat) batting 2nd. Most dont do it and would get chastised considerably if they did because baseball is too set in its ways. Im not arguing with you...I have my opinion, based on studies and what i read, you have yours and I disagree...but it has nothing to do with the fact I dont understand the point

More at bats =/= more RBI chances. And the numbers say that the third hitter has the chance to produce the most runs. That is all I am going to say about this since you seem to be pretty centered on your opinion.

[MLB Bob]

Re: speed or .obp?

More at bats =/= more RBI chances. And the numbers say that the third hitter has the chance to produce the most runs. That is all I am going to say about this since you seem to be pretty centered on your opinion.

what numbers?And the players you choose to cherry pick happen to both the biggest power threats and overall great hitters...Getting on base is the number one concern. the more all players get on base the more runs will score. By having your best hitter in the #2 spot accomplishes a few things. helps move runners into scoring position, "drives in your rbis" when other players are in scoring position and allows the players that bat after them have a runner on base. All this is fractional but if you read Tom tango and his study on line optimization its very well explained...theres a whole book about baseball by the numbers and dispelling a few myths along the way..Im not trying to convince you my opinion is right..Im just reiterating I fully understand the topic and have a different opinion that is supported (more accurately) based on actual studies of decades of data.

The line up is circular. The #3 hitter isnt allows going to come up third, some times he will lead off an inning, or bat second or come up with no on and 2 outs. once you go through the order once hes not really a #3 hitter or a #2 hitter and you want the guys that have the most AB's have the highest OBP simple as that.

[kehlis]

Re: speed or .obp?

More at bats =/= more RBI chances. And the numbers say that the third hitter has the chance to produce the most runs. That is all I am going to say about this since you seem to be pretty centered on your opinion.

I would love to see these numbers.

[Friar Fanatic]

Re: speed or .obp?

what numbers?And the players you choose to cherry pick happen to both the biggest power threats and overall great hitters...Getting on base is the number one concern. the more all players get on base the more runs will score. By having your best hitter in the #2 spot accomplishes a few things. helps move runners into scoring position, "drives in your rbis" when other players are in scoring position and allows the players that bat after them have a runner on base. All this is fractional but if you read Tom tango and his study on line optimization its very well explained...theres a whole book about baseball by the numbers and dispelling a few myths along the way..Im not trying to convince you my opinion is right..Im just reiterating I fully understand the topic and have a different opinion that is supported (more accurately) based on actual studies of decades of data.

The line up is circular. The #3 hitter isnt allows going to come up third, some times he will lead off an inning, or bat second or come up with no on and 2 outs. once you go through the order once hes not really a #3 hitter or a #2 hitter and you want the guys that have the most AB's have the highest OBP simple as that.

Well then agree to disagree. As far as actual statistics goes for abilities to drive in more runs I will have to put the best hitter third. Anyways good talk!

[MLB Bob]

Re: speed or .obp?

Well then agree to disagree. As far as actual statistics goes for abilities to drive in more runs I will have to put the best hitter third. Anyways good talk!

In order to drive in runs, which has as much to do with the guys hitting in front of them, means someone has to be on base first. Good hitters get on base a lot. Id want that guy up more than my other players so they can be "driven in" RBI's should not be a individual stat. Lots of bad players have had good RBI totals because good hitters were in front of them..

[Friar Fanatic]

Re: speed or .obp?

In order to drive in runs, which has as much to do with the guys hitting in front of them, means someone has to be on base first. Good hitters get on base a lot. Id want that guy up more than my other players so they can be "driven in" RBI's should not be a individual stat. Lots of bad players have had good RBI totals because good hitters were in front of them..

Fantastic! Great idea!

[kehlis]

Re: speed or .obp?

Well then agree to disagree. As far as actual statistics goes for abilities to drive in more runs I will have to put the best hitter third. Anyways good talk!

So are you going to show us those numbers that number 3 hitters get more RBI opportunities than any other spot in the lineup? Would still love to see them.

[TheKT]

Re: speed or .obp?

Read this: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/are-l...ore-optimized/

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/200...your-lineup-by

I read the two links and some of what has been said in this thread, and if I'm understanding it correctly the new method is to have a better hitter batting 4th than 3rd because the 4th slot on average has more runners on than the 3rd slot.

I think the reason that it works out that way is because the #3 hitter is usually your best hitter with some power, and good hitters with power tend to get pitched around more, so he would have one of the higher OBP's on the team. Doesn't that mean that whatever slot that hit behind wherever the usual #3 batter hit would have the most opportunity with runners on base?

I'm just saying that if you ran the best hitter at #2 in the lineup all season then whoever hits 3rd would then have the most oppertunities with a runner on. It's an interesting debate, but I feel that the old standard has directly influenced the new school approach.