Breaking pitches.

[KBLover]

Re: Breaking pitches.

I use classic with no visuals so I guess it won't really impact my game. However if I see a 12-6 break arm side I'm going to make a weird face.

Does it actually move that way?

I really wish they had the pitch movement paths like in the older games where it showed the aim point and the movement of the pitch.

It was like PitchFx before it was a thing...

I've seen the arrows but never could tell if it actually broke that way or if my pitcher missed location/bad delivery (I use Classic).

[spitoon]

Re: Breaking pitches.

Does it actually move that way?

I really wish they had the pitch movement paths like in the older games where it showed the aim point and the movement of the pitch.

It was like PitchFx before it was a thing...

I've seen the arrows but never could tell if it actually broke that way or if my pitcher missed location/bad delivery (I use Classic).

I don't mind the concept because I understand that it is impossible for a pitcher to throw exactly the same pitch every time. What I don't understand is why the graphic shows it that way...The pitcher is trying to throw his "normal" curve-ball and that's what the display should reflect...the fact that it moves differently is a failure on his behalf to execute (although completely understandable and acceptable).

[NDAlum]

Re: Breaking pitches.

Here's the big point...

There should be an invisible line going straight down from the ball and a RHP throwing a 12-6 curve should never have the ball end up to the right of 6. It could definitely have some variation from 6-9 based on a pitcher's overall mechanics.

It's literally not possible for a curve ball to go arm side. It's physics. Please everyone understand this...

[ktd1976]

Re: Breaking pitches.

Here's the big point...

There should be an invisible line going straight down from the ball and a RHP throwing a 12-6 curve should never have the ball end up to the right of 6. It could definitely have some variation from 6-9 based on a pitcher's overall mechanics.

It's literally not possible for a curve ball to go arm side. It's physics. Please everyone understand this...

Unless the release point is off, or the arm slot is off (causing the spin you intend to put on the ball to be wrong, or "off")

I mean no offense, but I think what you should say is that a curve ball thrown correctly will never break arm side. But if something in the mechanics is "off" it very well can (and does) break arm side.

But, this isn't intended, and can usually not be duplicated intentionally.

Basically, what I am saying, is a pitcher can intend to throw a curve ball, with a curve ball grip, and mess something up in the delivery/release point/wrist/arm action, that causes the pitch to break in an unintended way, INCLUDING arm side.

[JTommy67]

Re: Breaking pitches.

Aside from the impossible break issue being discussed here, I don't like this feature. Not because I don't think there is any variation in breaking balls, but because we can see beforehand the break of the pitch, as if the pitcher was going to try to replicate that particular break.

If normal variance is what they're going for, then they should draw the break the same every time and include the break variance in an unpredictable way the same way they do with accuracy.

Either that or let us choose the break, but I don't think that's what they're going for.

[RyanWreck]

Re: Breaking pitches.

Here's the big point...

There should be an invisible line going straight down from the ball and a RHP throwing a 12-6 curve should never have the ball end up to the right of 6. It could definitely have some variation from 6-9 based on a pitcher's overall mechanics.

It's literally not possible for a curve ball to go arm side. It's physics. Please everyone understand this...

Yup. You can't take any variation of the curveball grip (except the screwball grip, obviously) and get armside, screwball run accidentally. The grip, the pronation, the snapping of the wrist counterclockwise can't just happen. A RHP, while standing directly forward towards home plate, would have to point his throwing elbow towards first base and reach across his body and then twist his elbow and wrist completely 180 back towards 3rd base. It would be great for an interpretive dance routine but in a baseball game it would be ridiculous and the ball would probably end up bouncing in front of 3rd base. I'd fall over if I tried it. The Magnus force will always move in the same direction that the front of the ball is spinning towards, and the seams pull on the airflow making a wake of air behind and around the side of the ball to push the ball to the side its spinning against. That's why most 4 seam fastballs have slight run, not too many pitchers throw one perfectly over top spinning straight down (Collmenter does because he has an over the top arm angle, but even pitchfx calls his FB a cutter because it is so on top) rather they rotate it from 1-7 o'clock and in turn it runs 11-5.

It's a bit weird because the Show has always been very, very good with pitches so it's just odd that they did this.

You know what this would actually work good for? A forkball. A Forkball is a slip pitch (fingers on leather rather than on seams) and thus has similar "rotation" as a knuckleball but always going downwards like a splitter that could run one time then could cut a little the next time it is thrown or could just go straight down.

[ktd1976]

Re: Breaking pitches.

Yup. You can't take any variation of the curveball grip (except the screwball grip, obviously) and get armside, screwball run accidentally. The grip, the pronation, the snapping of the wrist counterclockwise can't just happen. The Magnus force will always move in the same direction that the front of the ball is spinning towards, and the seams pull on the airflow making a wake of air behind and around the side of the ball to push the ball to the side its spinning against. That's why most 4 seam fastballs have slight run, not too many pitchers throw one perfectly over top spinning straight down (Collmenter does because he has an over the top arm angle, but even pitchfx calls his FB a cutter because it is so on top) rather they rotate it from 1-7 o'clock and in turn it runs 11-5.

Not quite true. A true 12-6 curve ball is thrown from a completely overhead (not 3/4ths) arm slot. Which is why most pitchers who throw with a 3/4ths arm slot cannot throw a 12-6 curve ball.

Now, you are correct in saying that a correctly thrown curve ball will never break arm side. FACT. A 12-6 curveball thrown from an overhead arm slot will break DOWN, and maybe have a very minimal horizontal break. If that arm slot is off just a tad, that horizontal break becomes more pronounced (hence why a curve from a 3/4ths slot breaks more horizontally.)

Now, imagine an overhead pitcher missing his arm slot by a touch to the non throwing side, (it is rare, but it can happen) but putting the same spin on the ball. Because of the difference in arm slot, the ball will appear to break to the pitching arm side. It is very RARE, but not impossible.

[KBLover]

Re: Breaking pitches.

Not because I don't think there is any variation in breaking balls, but because we can see beforehand the break of the pitch, as if the pitcher was going to try to replicate that particular break.

Yeah - I agree with this.

I shouldn't know before I throw the pitch if my breaking stuff will act "funny" or not.

[ktd1976]

Re: Breaking pitches.

Also, another point to point out, not ALL curve balls are thrown with a twist of the rist (imagine turning a doorknob). Doug Fister doesn't use this wrist twist when throwing his curve.

http://betterpitching.com/doug-fister-shows-you-how-to-throw-a-big-league-curveball/

[NDAlum]

Re: Breaking pitches.

Please show me one video showing a curve ball that breaks arm side. That Fister curve is beautiful, but not even a 12-6.

[RyanWreck]

Re: Breaking pitches.

Not quite true. A true 12-6 curve ball is thrown from a completely overhead (not 3/4ths) arm slot. Which is why most pitchers who throw with a 3/4ths arm slot cannot throw a 12-6 curve ball.

Technically you could get a 12-6 without throwing over top, though it would be difficult. Cy Blanton's self named "downer" did just that. Hugh "One Arm" Daily also did it! But, he's kind of an oddity so it doesn't really count I suppose. I think Charlie Brown had a 3/4 curveball that was a perfect lollipop too. But, once again, he doesn't count.

[ktd1976]

Re: Breaking pitches.

Please show me one video showing a curve ball that breaks arm side. That Fister curve is beautiful, but not even a 12-6.

Video wasn't intended to show that. And I know it wasn't a 12-6 curve, because of the arm slot. All it was intended to show was that he didn't "spin" his wrist the way most people think a curve ball is thrown.

Point being, a correctly thrown curve ball will never break to the arm side. I'm not arguing this. But an incorrectly thrown one has the possibility of doing so, depending on the arm slot. A curve thrown from a 3/4ths arm slot will never break arm side, but a curve thrown from an overhead arm slot MIGHT if the arm slot is off a bit, or if the arm action/wrist action is wrong

[KBLover]

Re: Breaking pitches.

You know what this would actually work good for? A forkball. A Forkball is a slip pitch (fingers on leather rather than on seams) and thus has similar "rotation" as a knuckleball but always going downwards like a splitter that could run one time then could cut a little the next time it is thrown or could just go straight down.

That's pretty much how forkballs work in the game.

I have a finesse guy that throws a forkball and the break varies from down-away, down, down-in.

[RyanWreck]

Re: Breaking pitches.

That's pretty much how forkballs work in the game.

I have a finesse guy that throws a forkball and the break varies from down-away, down, down-in.

Nice. I hadn't checked it this year, I don't think I even had a pitcher who threw one all of last year either.

[NDAlum]

Re: Breaking pitches.

Video wasn't intended to show that. And I know it wasn't a 12-6 curve, because of the arm slot. All it was intended to show was that he didn't "spin" his wrist the way most people think a curve ball is thrown.

Point being, a correctly thrown curve ball will never break to the arm side. I'm not arguing this. But an incorrectly thrown one has the possibility of doing so, depending on the arm slot. A curve thrown from a 3/4ths arm slot will never break arm side, but a curve thrown from an overhead arm slot MIGHT if the arm slot is off a bit, or if the arm action/wrist action is wrong

If it breaks arm side it's not a curve ball. You could miss direction and throw it inside but it won't break arm side.

Here's a fun video to watch curve nastiness, let me know if any of the curves break inside:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9Zyk2T37XDg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Gallardo has a true 12-6, nasty.