Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

[spitoon]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

I had a bit of a weird one this morning.

I was facing Iglesias (sp?) on the Reds and he was doing quite well. Had held me to a couple hits into the 7th. I managed a hit and then I stole second. They issued an IBB to get to my pitcher, which makes sense.

Then they pulled Iglesias before I announced the pinch hitter.

The pull was probably a bit premature, but I also think it was odd that they put the reliever in before I announced my pinch hitter...I think, at that point in the game, it would have been pretty clear that I wasn't going to leave the pitcher in to hit.

[oldtimey]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

I had a bit of a weird one this morning.

I was facing Iglesias (sp?) on the Reds and he was doing quite well. Had held me to a couple hits into the 7th. I managed a hit and then I stole second. They issued an IBB to get to my pitcher, which makes sense.

Then they pulled Iglesias before I announced the pinch hitter.

The pull was probably a bit premature, but I also think it was odd that they put the reliever in before I announced my pinch hitter...I think, at that point in the game, it would have been pretty clear that I wasn't going to leave the pitcher in to hit.

Yes, this is a problem with the bullpen AI; bringing in the reliever without letting the offensive manager make his move off the bench. This reminds me of another AI issue that is related to this. The defensive manager brings in his reliever, a LHP. The offensive manager, in a pinch-hitting situation, sends up his PH--a LHB! I have seen this a lot in my cpu-v-cpu games. The offensive AI doesn't react to the game situations either.

[SPU32]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

Yes, this is a problem with the bullpen AI; bringing in the reliever without letting the offensive manager make his move off the bench. This reminds me of another AI issue that is related to this. The defensive manager brings in his reliever, a LHP. The offensive manager, in a pinch-hitting situation, sends up his PH--a LHB! I have seen this a lot in my cpu-v-cpu games. The offensive AI doesn't react to the game situations either.

I have not simulated thoroughly on this, but, a few sims appeared to fix the abundance of RP pitcher appearances. You will need to have specific sim sliders to get proper season stats.

SCEA really needs to add a slot in the PR screen that says "SPT", which stands for Specialist, so we can insert a lefty there to have a season line like: 50-games/32-Innings Pitched.

Is it worth having 13-Pitchers VS 12-Position Players ?

I was thinking that if you carried 2-Catchers and the back-up could play 1st Base. And one IF, like the SS or 2B, would have to be able to play all Infield Positions - And one OF would have to play all 3-OF spots.

I hope that Mark Lowe and oldtimey can respond to this issue, as they are wise in this area.

thanks .... and thank you, SCEA, for giving us the gift of this wonderful game.

here are video examples of two sims:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV_GWN8gS8U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SLipWUtBIw

[Ghost Of The Year]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

I'd consider carrying 13 pitchers with current rosters but I play a lot with 1980's classic rosters
& I'm not changing from carrying 10-11 to even 12, let alone 13, with those rosters.

[lvann4x]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

Also, the way the AI chooses who will fill the closer role in Franchise Mode gets worse as seasons go by.
Teams with RP's rated in the 80's will have a Closer rated in the low 70's or even high 60's just because he's the best pitcher who happens to have CP next to his name. The AI needs to be tuned to use one of at least it's top 2 relievers as it's closer, regardless of whether his position is RP or CP, or even in some cases where they may have an SP with low stamina but great stuff who is head and shoulders better than their best reliever, but not a good fit in the starting rotation.

[Uncle Elton John]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

Also, the way the AI chooses who will fill the closer role in Franchise Mode gets worse as seasons go by.
Teams with RP's rated in the 80's will have a Closer rated in the low 70's or even high 60's just because he's the best pitcher who happens to have CP next to his name. The AI needs to be tuned to use one of at least it's top 2 relievers as it's closer, regardless of whether his position is RP or CP, or even in some cases where they may have an SP with low stamina but great stuff who is head and shoulders better than their best reliever, but not a good fit in the starting rotation.

yes, it is a debacle. let us hope they incorporate a OOTP like sim engine for MLB 17.

[Mike Lowe]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

I have not found a way to reduce the number of complete games and shutouts pitched in simulated games. Nothing that doesn't require a ton of work.

[oldtimey]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

I have not found a way to reduce the number of complete games and shutouts pitched in simulated games. Nothing that doesn't require a ton of work.

I put in a lot of work reducing the stamina rating on all starters in my 30-team franchise and I am very happy that I did. I sim all games daily, except one featured game that I watch live. I rotate the games that I feature to allow me to see at least one series in all 30 ballparks. I am in September and my leaders in CG are

AL: Keuchel, HOU 6, Carrasco, CLE and Minor, KC 5;
NL: Lester, CHC 5, Wainwright, STL, Grienke, AZ, Samardzija, SF, Arrieta, CHC and deGrom NYM 4.

I checked the leaders in the real MLB and saw that Sale leads the AL in CG with 5, and Bumgarner and Cueto are tied for the NL lead with 4. So I am pretty satisfied with my results. I have also had two no-hitters (Bundy of BAL and Nelson of MIL). And today, Cobb of TB took a no-hitter into the ninth in Yankee Stadium before Headley broke it up with 2 outs to go. I play cpu-cpu, with starter stamina slider set at 4, reliever stamina 0 and manager hook at 5, in addition to the above mentioned adjustments.

[Mike Lowe]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

I put in a lot of work reducing the stamina rating on all starters in my 30-team franchise and I am very happy that I did. I sim all games daily, except one featured game that I watch live. I rotate the games that I feature to allow me to see at least one series in all 30 ballparks. I am in September and my leaders in CG are

AL: Keuchel, HOU 6, Carrasco, CLE and Minor, KC 5;
NL: Lester, CHC 5, Wainwright, STL, Grienke, AZ, Samardzija, SF, Arrieta, CHC and deGrom NYM 4.

I checked the leaders in the real MLB and saw that Sale leads the AL in CG with 5, and Bumgarner and Cueto are tied for the NL lead with 4. So I am pretty satisfied with my results. I have also had two no-hitters (Bundy of BAL and Nelson of MIL). And today, Cobb of TB took a no-hitter into the ninth in Yankee Stadium before Headley broke it up with 2 outs to go. I play cpu-cpu, with starter stamina slider set at 4, reliever stamina 0 and manager hook at 5, in addition to the above mentioned adjustments.

What edits did you make exactly to SP stamina?

How do your RP innings/game look? Are they still pitching 1+ inning a lot of times, or are you *actually* (huge asterisk) seeing situational bullpen usage by AI teams?

[oldtimey]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

What edits did you make exactly to SP stamina?

How do your RP innings/game look? Are they still pitching 1+ inning a lot of times, or are you *actually* (huge asterisk) seeing situational bullpen usage by AI teams?

Check out this thread from a couple of months ago, http://www.operationsports.com/forum...na-rating.html. Also, attached are some spreadsheets from a game that I watched between CHW and TB. You can see examples of the bullpen usage, as well as all the other statistical results that have been achieved with the adjustments described in the link, my sliders with Bacon96's roster from spring training. The only thing that has been off compared to the real MLB has been stolen bases. I recently just Increased the SB frequency and I am happier now with that. As far as situational relief is concerned, the AI seems to go with performance in the franchise games rather than lh/rh ratings or which way the batter hits. And it looks at the next three hitters due. So, if the next three hitters cumulatively are hitting worse against LHP, then the AI will bring in a LHP. When the game is late and close, with reliever stamina set at 0, if that LHP comes in and permits a baserunner, he will get the hook and the AI manager will go to the bullpen until someone can get him outs or he has no one left in the bullpen to go to. At this time, that's the best this game can do as far as situational bullpen usage. Check out the thread and the spreadsheets and I will be happy to answer any other questions you might have.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...?usp=drive_web
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...?usp=drive_web

[KBLover]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

As far as situational relief is concerned, the AI seems to go with performance in the franchise games rather than lh/rh ratings or which way the batter hits. And it looks at the next three hitters due.

I've noticed it will go by handedness or at least matchup for extreme differences.

For example, I can be assured to see a LHP RP for Gallo, etc.

But in the case of guys with no real split or not a big one, it has a harder time, as expected since pitchers have no splits.

[oldtimey]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

I've noticed it will go by handedness or at least matchup for extreme differences.

For example, I can be assured to see a LHP RP for Gallo, etc.

But in the case of guys with no real split or not a big one, it has a harder time, as expected since pitchers have no splits.

Agreed. Guys who are platoon players have had there split versus same-handed pitchers adjusted way down to create poor stats in my franchise to encourage these situations. It would help a whole lot if the pitchers had split ratings. Then, the AI could lean on the pitchers strength in those situations when it's neutral or reverse.

[MythicalGnome]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

Yea...... I have to put the cpu reliever stamina slider on 1 because of this. I've had to do this almost every year playing the Show. Without it, (unless you chase the RP with runs) the cpu keeps its RP's in there for 2+ innings.

Thank you for bringing this issue to the main thread, its been underlying for a while.

I really do hope this is finally addressed even a little bit in 17.

[Mike Lowe]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

Check out this thread from a couple of months ago, http://www.operationsports.com/forum...na-rating.html. Also, attached are some spreadsheets from a game that I watched between CHW and TB. You can see examples of the bullpen usage, as well as all the other statistical results that have been achieved with the adjustments described in the link, my sliders with Bacon96's roster from spring training. The only thing that has been off compared to the real MLB has been stolen bases. I recently just Increased the SB frequency and I am happier now with that. As far as situational relief is concerned, the AI seems to go with performance in the franchise games rather than lh/rh ratings or which way the batter hits. And it looks at the next three hitters due. So, if the next three hitters cumulatively are hitting worse against LHP, then the AI will bring in a LHP. When the game is late and close, with reliever stamina set at 0, if that LHP comes in and permits a baserunner, he will get the hook and the AI manager will go to the bullpen until someone can get him outs or he has no one left in the bullpen to go to. At this time, that's the best this game can do as far as situational bullpen usage. Check out the thread and the spreadsheets and I will be happy to answer any other questions you might have.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...?usp=drive_web
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...?usp=drive_web

Is there an opening day roster (OSFM) out there already that has these edits to SPs already? I know it's tough to edit outside of franchise mode, but it is possible using the import feature.

If there's one out there, I'd be happy to give it some testing.

[oldtimey]

Re: Elephant in the Room: AI Bullpen Usage

Is there an opening day roster (OSFM) out there already that has these edits to SPs already? I know it's tough to edit outside of franchise mode, but it is possible using the import feature.

If there's one out there, I'd be happy to give it some testing.

I originally started the above-mentioned thread here and it was moved to the rosters section in hopes that the roster makers and editors would consider these edits in a version of their roster. I don't know if any have adopted them. After I begin my franchise, I don't look at another roster until my season is over. I only play year 1 in franchise mode; after that season is over, I archive my results and stats, download another roster and start another franchise. I do this to avoid all the off-season "business of baseball," which I have no interest in. I will probably choose a end-of-season roster, edit players and teams through the winter, to be ready to play spring training in early March. Sorry for the digression. You would have to inquire the OSFM guys and their editors if there is a roster with these edits included.