Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

[NolanRyansSnowmonkey]

Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

Totally on board with not doing something without verifying.

I have just seen quite a few posts and mentions of this on here. So i think its definitely a concern.

People didn't have to drop difficulty last year, but the reason i said 'especially this year' is because of things the devs have said. They said over and over that they wanted to make things easier (in their words more "accessible") for the masses in 19, because the game was too hard for them in the past.

They also said there were some high competitive players, especially in DD, that considered the game too easy for them. So the dev's stated goal in 19 was to make it easier (more accessible) for the masses, (who play All-Star or lower) but to make it more challenging at the higher levels, for more skilled players that wanted to be challenged more. They were trying to strike a balance to compensate both groups, and i think "more challenging/difficult" doesn't always manifest in realistic ways - in this case, entirely too much cpu contact at the higher levels.

i also hope either something can be changed, or gain more understanding of how the new changes to hitting and pitching. I just think that this information may at least help people come to a resolution quicker.

But the dev's statements referenced above are why i think a direct comparison of our experience with19 to last year, or any other year, may not work as well as in the past.

[countryboy]

Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

But I'm seeing people playing at other levels (Hall of Fame and All-Star) mention that they are seeing this issue as well so I don't think its a matter of me needing to drop down a difficulty level. And as I said, nothing else pitching wise feels out of whack, so if I drop down then I'd have to adjust sliders to compensate for what I would imagine would be me having even more success pitching.

If we could pinpoint (and I think bcruise has done a great job of finding a culprit) the actual issue, then maybe I would be more inclined to adjust a slider if I knew that slider was only going to resolve this issue and not throw the rest of the game "out of balance".

Personally I don't believe that there is something the user can do to resolve this issue that won't affect other areas of the game. I believe this issue is due to the changes in hitting and pitching and making contact hitters (contact in general) more pronounced this year.

[countryboy]

Re: Contact - Swings & Misses - Strikeouts

Another quickie - if I look to make slider adjustments, this is what I want to take out of the game:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZpAuu5uz3WE" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yes, Yelich missed, so the end result in this case was fine. But when I went to the PCI contact analysis it showed a 3. That means that going only by where his PCI was placed (not timing - it's not a factor in determining this particular number), the game was giving him a small chance to make contact. That needs to be a 0 and no chance for contact based on that PCI placement, even for Yelich - no if's and's or but's. His gigantic PCI itself is more than enough to make him as good of a hitter as he is in real life.

If PCI's that are that far off can result in 3's, then it's no wonder we're seeing foul tips (typically the 5-8 range in this analysis) that are clearly outside the PCI. And those extend at-bats and deny strikeouts.

Following up with your findings bcruise I was playing the Pirates last night McCutchen has a contact rating of 75 against LH pitchers and Drew Harrington threw a changeup in the dirt that he foul tipped. The PCI was located still in the strike zone but when I looked up his PCI placement gave him a 5 to make contact which seemed high to me.

I'm really starting to think this is the culprit for this issue. I had others, but I didn't write them down. Also didn't take videos because honestly it was late and I was tired and didn't mess with it.

I would be curious what numbers others are seeing that aren't playing on Legend to see if they are similar.

Going to keep making note of foul tips on balls where the PCI is shown far off the actual location of the pitch.

Again thanks bcruise for this find.

[COMMISSIONERHBK9]

Re: Contact - Swings &amp; Misses - Strikeouts

I must be doing something wrong because I’m striking out a lot lol. I’m on dynamic diffculity. I use directional hitting with guess pitch.

[Funkycorm]

Re: Contact - Swings &amp; Misses - Strikeouts

I must be doing something wrong because I’m striking out a lot lol. I’m on dynamic diffculity. I use directional hitting with guess pitch.

I had this same problem. Until I decided this year to turn guess pitch off and change my hitting view. Been striking out less since. Felt like guess pitch was holding me back.

In terms of the lack of strike outs, I am seeing it vary widely. I do good some games and bad others. I am on all star though so I can't speak to higher difficulty levels. It does seem that the CPU can foul tip pitches they shouldn't though.

[NolanRyansSnowmonkey]

Re: Contact - Swings &amp; Misses - Strikeouts

But I'm seeing people playing at other levels (Hall of Fame and All-Star) mention that they are seeing this issue as well so I don't think its a matter of me needing to drop down a difficulty level.

Agreed. I haven't heard (or i just probably missed it) people seeing this on lower difficulty levels. This being the case, the point i made about difficulty setting, when it comes to this issue, is probably moot.

I would be more inclined to adjust a slider if I knew that slider was only going to resolve this issue and not throw the rest of the game "out of balance".

Personally I don't believe that there is something the user can do to resolve this issue that won't affect other areas of the game.

Agreed again. However- whether the user resolves the issue (with sliders), or SDS resolves the issue (without sliders) it still will introduce a new problem that will throw the game 'out of balance' - (if indeed the game is otherwise 'in balance' now). That problem is the fact that if the resolution (less cpu contact) were to result in a increase of cpu strikeouts (it will) - by an average of 4 or 5 K's per game to get closer to real numbers, that also drops 4 or 5 cpu balls from being put in play per game on average.

(Not sure exactly how many K's people are actually seeing now. Im just going by numbers I've already seen myself or heard others report or imply here.)

4 or 5 balls in play per game is a ton in baseball numbers. That equals 1 to 1.5 hits per game taken away from the CPU. Which is fine if they are getting too many hits right now. But if numbers are currently good, human pitching will thrive because of resolving this. It wont be noticeable game-to-game. But over time it will be a very large drop in cpu batting average. Enough to make an average staff elite.

The difference of 1.5 hits per game is enough to cause an average team to become the best pitching staff in the league overnight (but probably not noticeable except over time), dropping cpu batting average from around .250 to .220 over the course of the season.

So if the game is otherwise 'in balance' now, it won't make a difference "how" the issue is resolved. It will throw cpu hitting out of balance either way unless something else is adjusted.

A common thing i have seen with The Show on Default in the past is a "false balance." Where, game-to-game everything "feels" balanced and single game stats look fine. Runs and Hits and W/L look balanced, but it only gets there by taking an unbalanced area (in this case too much cpu contact), and making up for it with another unbalanced area (balls in play not resulting in enough hits per ball in play). But if only one of these becomes "truly" balanced, what happens to other one?

I can't take a balanced scale, and add 'more balance.' Especially by adjusting only one side of the scale.

I guess for the majority this doesn't matter. But it is why i always use sliders in order to create a true balance for my game, instead of just a feeling of balance. Feel is only good game-to-game. But it wont tell my team's true story over time - over 162 games.

I believe this issue is due to the changes in hitting and pitching and making contact hitters (contact in general) more pronounced this year.

i agree 100%. There is no doubt in my mind this is the case.

[Therebelyell626]

Re: Contact - Swings &amp; Misses - Strikeouts

Last night I kid you not I had a sequence against Manny machado that was a 16 pitch at bat. At one point I through 6 pitches in a row off of the plate that he fouled off. I thought to myself "jeeze, at least take a ball would you". I feel like I have been messing with sliders more than ever this year, and honestly I don't know if I have the energy for the show this year. The more I play the more I see some obvious warts that just bug the heck out of me.

The thing is I am not even bad at the game. I am actually killing it this year and on dynamic difficulty am approaching Leaving all star difficulty for the first time ever. The thing about this year is that it takes so much focus to play this years game that it's actually quite exhausting. I have a stressful career and I play video games to relieve that stress. The show is not a game you can just pick up and play this year. If I take a couple of days off my timing and skill completely evaporates, and sorry I don't have time to play the show every single day.

But back on the topic of sliders. I usually don't take credence to what is said on the shownation forums but this year the default hitting really is like swinging a wet noodle. In fact the CPU is so bad or flat out unintelligent this year I have had to jack up there sliders way beyond mine just to give them a fighting chance. I had to even jack of the CPU strike frequency and control because their pitchers seem hell bent on walking as many of my batters as they possibly can. This game is clearly NOW and in the future being designed to be an online centric game. SDS seems hell bent and obsessed with being an e-sports title and the gameplay is really starting to show this. Honestly it just does not make for a good or organic baseball experience. Too many time I will connect perfectly with a hanging breaking ball that goes in the absolute incorrect direction it should have gone based on real physics. To often the results are not matching the actions. I get that I am accepting the risk of a level of randomness by using directional hitting, but something just feels off about this years game and I can't put my finger on it.

[Roscosuper]

Re: Contact - Swings &amp; Misses - Strikeouts

To start, I haven't been playing Franchise (or Play Now) because it needs to be fixed, but when '19 first dropped, I did my usual Play Now on Dynamic difficulty to get used to the game and get an idea of where I level off at.

My last Play Now game was on HOF+ with Meter Pitching and I had Jason Vargas go 6 innings while striking out 9 batters. My relievers added to the total, but my point is Vargas is not a strikeout pitcher, he's not even a good pitcher anymore. I believe I was playing the Orioles, so that could be a factor too. Patches could also be a factor as this game was not played under the recent patch.

The reason I'm writing this post is because after watching the video posted in this thread and seeing the user max out the meter on every pitch, regardless of pitch type and/or location, I thought "well, now he's completely taking out variance for each individual pitch". That's one tool that the user has surrendered on a level that's going to require more tact to yield favorable outcomes. Is it not?

I'm still testing out my own theories on how to use the Meter, but you can see the CPU varies individual pitches as one tool to get you out. Their fastballs aren't maxed out every time, but when they do come in at their top efficacy, they surprise you. Thus, the CPU is using this aspect combined with others to get you out. So, I would imagine that you have to reverse engineer their tactics to understand the algorithms you wish to defeat.

Here's some examples of my theory on Meter Pitching:

Fastballs - for most pitchers I stay near the middle (the yellow) and then have the option to "pull the string" (the line) or "max out" (in the red).

Sliders in on the hands - the only success I have with this is complete control (on the line or just inside the yellow).

Control pitchers who don't rely on power (e.g. Vargas) - I stay at the line or just in the yellow and once in a while see if I can blast a fast ball by them.

Change Ups that need to be below the zone - complete control. Speeding up and flattening out a change-up is a scary endeavor.

I could go on, but you get the point.

That being said, no one is discussing tactics. I understand that skill varies from user to user, but if you're just going to sling pitches and "grip it and rip it" of course you're going to need slider adjustments on the highest levels. Granted, playing against the CPU you have to think against algorithms, but you still have to think and use the parameter of tactics with in the game. The more tactics you nullify, the easier it is for the CPU algorithms to defeat you.

Countryboy, since Franchise needs to be fixed (IMO), would you consider using Dynamic difficulty in Play Now games as a learning experience to work your way up through the levels to develop your own theories on Meter pitching and CPU algorithms? I think that's where the discussion should go, not which sliders do what, IMO.

[countryboy]

Re: Contact - Swings &amp; Misses - Strikeouts

With all due respect this thread is to discuss the excessive contact thus leading to fewer swings misses which may be resulting in fewer strikeouts

This thread isn’t to discuss the need for sliders to get realistic stats or gameplay or to discuss other issues with the game or the direction of the game/series.

There are other threads for that discussion. I’m just trying to see if others were/are seeing the same “issue” I am. And then seeing if we can find a culprit and relay to SDS.

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[Therebelyell626]

Re: Contact - Swings &amp; Misses - Strikeouts

With all due respect this thread is to discuss the excessive contact thus leading to fewer swings misses which may be resulting in fewer strikeouts

This thread isn’t to discuss the need for sliders to get realistic stats or gameplay or to discuss other issues with the game or the direction of the game/series.

There are other threads for that discussion. I’m just trying to see if others were/are seeing the same “issue” I am. And then seeing if we can find a culprit and relay to SDS.

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

No worries country boy. My point about the sliders was ; yes I am seeing this as well. The problem is you can't combat it with sliders. If you tune down the requisite sliders to make this a non issue the CPU can't hit their way out of a paper bag. Granted I am one good game away from leaving all star difficulty, so things may change when I get up a notch.

But yes. I am seeing this as well. I am having more luck getting strike outs by pitching well into the zone then I am pitching on the corners. The CPU hitters seem to whiff more when the pitch is actually hittable than if it's a corner pitch

[countryboy]

Re: Contact - Swings &amp; Misses - Strikeouts

Countryboy, since Franchise needs to be fixed (IMO), would you consider using Dynamic difficulty in Play Now games as a learning experience to work your way up through the levels to develop your own theories on Meter pitching and CPU algorithms? I think that's where the discussion should go, not which sliders do what, IMO.

No because this isn't about not understanding the meter. This is about both the user and AI being able to make contact on pitches where the PCI is located significantly away from the location of the pitch.

[NolanRyansSnowmonkey]

Re: Contact - Swings &amp; Misses - Strikeouts

This thread isn’t to discuss the need for sliders to get realistic stats or gameplay or to discuss other issues with the game or the direction of the game/series.

There are other threads for that discussion. I’m just trying to see if others were/are seeing the same “issue” I am. And then seeing if we can find a culprit and relay to SDS.

The point isn't about the sliders. The point is whether SDS fixes it or not, the game will remain unbalanced whether because of the fix, or without the fix.

If they fix it, the next wave of threads on here will likely be "since the last patch CPU hitting sucks. I am dominating now. They broke something else." But it's not that they broke something, its that they only fixed one part of the scale. Unless we are expecting SDS to back under the hood and, in addition to adjusting contact, adjust hit velocities, fielder reaction, and whatever else, it isn't going to technically fix anything unfortunately. It will just rear its head elswehere.

So while the point isn't sliders, The alternative suggestion, and more likely fix, is going to be sliders for most people. That suggestion is not meant for people who dont want to adjust them. But being a community, it is very likely that some people don't want to wait around wondering if they'll get a specific patch from SDS. That suggestion is for them, not the no sliders people.

[Therebelyell626]

Re: Contact - Swings &amp; Misses - Strikeouts

The point isn't about the sliders. The point is whether SDS fixes it or not, the game will remain unbalanced whether because of the fix, or without the fix.

If they fix it, the next wave of threads on here will likely be "since the last patch CPU hitting sucks. I am dominating now. They broke something else." But it's not that they broke something, its that they only fixed one part of the scale. Unless we are expecting SDS to back under the hood and, in addition to adjusting contact, adjust hit velocities, fielder reaction, and whatever else, it isn't going to technically fix anything unfortunately. It will just rear its head elswehere.

So while the point isn't sliders, The alternative suggestion, and more likely fix, is going to be sliders for most people. That suggestion is not meant for people who dont want to adjust them. But being a community, it is very likely that some people don't want to wait around wondering if they'll get a specific patch from SDS. That suggestion is for them, not the no sliders people.

My thoughts exactly

[countryboy]

Re: Contact - Swings &amp; Misses - Strikeouts

The point isn't about the sliders. The point is whether SDS fixes it or not, the game will remain unbalanced whether because of the fix, or without the fix.

If they fix it, the next wave of threads on here will likely be "since the last patch CPU hitting sucks. I am dominating now. They broke something else." But it's not that they broke something, its that they only fixed one part of the scale. Unless we are expecting SDS to back under the hood and, in addition to adjusting contact, adjust hit velocities, fielder reaction, and whatever else, it isn't going to technically fix anything unfortunately. It will just rear its head elswehere.

So while the point isn't sliders, The alternative suggestion, and more likely fix, is going to be sliders for most people. That suggestion is not meant for people who dont want to adjust them. But being a community, it is very likely that some people don't want to wait around wondering if they'll get a specific patch from SDS. That suggestion is for them, not the no sliders people.

The POINT of this thread was to see if others were seeing the same issue I was an then seeing if we can find a culprit and possibly a fix if we can narrow down the culprit. That's it.

It's been made, and clearly made, time and time again in this thread.

[NolanRyansSnowmonkey]

Re: Contact - Swings &amp; Misses - Strikeouts

The POINT of this thread was to see if others were seeing the same issue I was an then seeing if we can find a culprit and possibly a fix if we can narrow down the culprit. That's it.

It's been made, and clearly made, time and time again in this thread.

So we are the moderaters now of our own thread? Or as a community can we make suggestions and comments that clearly relate to the topic at hand, which may help readers of the post and not just the OP?