MLB The Show 21 Franchise Mode and March to October Details From Feature Premiere

[JoshC1977]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Franchise Mode and March to October Details From Feature Premiere

Building a team isn't that fun when the progression system is done poorly.

The potential rating is too powerful and there is almost zero fog of war. I'd rather see a ceiling/floor for each player and it be a combination of things that dictate if a player hits their full potential at their peaks or not. And don't make it quantifiable. That makes roster moves too easy. In real life we never know if a kid will progress until he does. We can only project. If real life had ratings and a progression system that made it easy to know who would blossom and who wouldn't, well then it would be really boring.

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I don't think it's done "poorly", I actually really like that a player's performance can alter the pathway. I have 35 yr old 1B who is actually PRO-gressing right now because he's playing incredibly. I have other guys that aren't playing as well and are obviously on the down-slope of their careers and are regressing. Those are both really good things (and I see them throughout my franchise).

The impact of potential IS over-done (for progression/regression and trade logic), I do agree with that. In past games, the AI has over-valued the potential GRADE (not just the number). It made it VERY dicey to use the vast number of custom rosters because they overdid the potentials when creating them. A lot of the progression/regression/trade logic complaints stemmed from people using poorly conceived rosters (it's a harsh way of saying it and I acknowledge that the 90-mans put a crimp on 'creative license' - but they don't jive with the mode). Even with one of the 'good' rosters, it isn't quite right - I can get way more value from a 90 potential ('A') vs an 89 potential ('B')...and therein lies the fundamental flaw that you're alluding to (it's too "binary").

That said, I don't think it HAS to be too complicated though. In essence, the player's overall already acts as a de facto 'floor' (especially for young players and draftees). I had a guy drafted in my franchise (75 overall CF...D potential). What that says to me is "high floor, low ceiling"...he will likely show SOME development above his current OVR, but that career arc is going to be quite different as he may be a quick "flame-out". This is, again, where most of those custom rosters don't cut the mustard...they cut out a ton of those 'D/F' potential guys and replace them with "prospects" and you lose a ton of that development variety. Additionally, better prospect potential variety means more 'cycling' of guys through the farm systems...more guys get a chance to 'fail' or 'succeed' which then drives more variety within the progression/regression system.

If you (or any others reading) haven't done this with MLBTS20, fire up an auto-control franchise using Bacon's fictional or the 80s Strat-O-matic roster. Sim through a few years and you can see the difference in how progression/regression works comapred with say Ridin's roster (or the SDS defaults). It's hard to see ALL the subtelty just by quick simming everything, but it'll give you a flavor of what I mean.

My 'hope' is that some of the overhaul work SDS spoke about will make player values more relative to those around them (like how madden does where it's not just raw OVR, but also how they stack up with others in the league at their positions). If SDS achieves that, then it would (theoretically) make the progression more 'compatible' with a larger slew of roster motifs and even if it were merely combined with the 'old' formula, would still improve it greatly for a large number of players that use more 'standard' rosters.

[Balldude777]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Franchise Mode and March to October Details From Feature Premiere

I'm disappointed after seeing the RTTS podcasts that franchise got nothing of that sort presentation wise. Most of this stuff is just a meh from me and sounds like good patch updates. I'm excited about the stadium creator but more so because I'd like to think they'll keep it in for MLB 22. 21 just does not impress me enough, especially after the removal of Y2Y saves. I'm not even that impressed with the next gen graphics to be honest. I can't tell the difference when they show "captured on next-gen". Now don't get me wrong though, I think MLB 20 on the PS5 looks and runs amazingly already so I'm not bashing it, I just don't see a big enough jump to make me abandon MLB 20 is all.

I'm not going to bash the devs though, MLB is one of if not the best sports games we have right now. I could be wrong but it seems to me they are really in touch with the community compared to other companies so I'm confident they are hearing everyone's disappointment and we will see great strides in the future, but I'm skipping '21.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Franchise Mode and March to October Details From Feature Premiere

I’m still torn on getting the game or not. The issue for me is without year to year carryovers, I’m not sure I’ll feel like I got the proper value out of it. In years past it was great because I could play the game at my own pace and still make decent progress in a franchise. Even if I didn’t finish a full season in MLB 19, I could carry it over to 20 and continue making progress there.

My rosters are definitely out of date at this point; guys like Tatis and Soto are just good minor leaguers. I like a lot of the features they’re adding this year, particularly the ability to make minor league stadiums to bring some life to those games.

But it’s hard for me to justify investing in a franchise mode that I might not even make it to year 2 or 3 with.


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[canes21]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Franchise Mode and March to October Details From Feature Premiere

I don't think it's done "poorly", I actually really like that a player's performance can alter the pathway. I have 35 yr old 1B who is actually PRO-gressing right now because he's playing incredibly. I have other guys that aren't playing as well and are obviously on the down-slope of their careers and are regressing. Those are both really good things (and I see them throughout my franchise).



The impact of potential IS over-done (for progression/regression and trade logic), I do agree with that. In past games, the AI has over-valued the potential GRADE (not just the number). It made it VERY dicey to use the vast number of custom rosters because they overdid the potentials when creating them. A lot of the progression/regression/trade logic complaints stemmed from people using poorly conceived rosters (it's a harsh way of saying it and I acknowledge that the 90-mans put a crimp on 'creative license' - but they don't jive with the mode). Even with one of the 'good' rosters, it isn't quite right - I can get way more value from a 90 potential ('A') vs an 89 potential ('B')...and therein lies the fundamental flaw that you're alluding to (it's too "binary").



That said, I don't think it HAS to be too complicated though. In essence, the player's overall already acts as a de facto 'floor' (especially for young players and draftees). I had a guy drafted in my franchise (75 overall CF...D potential). What that says to me is "high floor, low ceiling"...he will likely show SOME development above his current OVR, but that career arc is going to be quite different as he may be a quick "flame-out". This is, again, where most of those custom rosters don't cut the mustard...they cut out a ton of those 'D/F' potential guys and replace them with "prospects" and you lose a ton of that development variety. Additionally, better prospect potential variety means more 'cycling' of guys through the farm systems...more guys get a chance to 'fail' or 'succeed' which then drives more variety within the progression/regression system.



If you (or any others reading) haven't done this with MLBTS20, fire up an auto-control franchise using Bacon's fictional or the 80s Strat-O-matic roster. Sim through a few years and you can see the difference in how progression/regression works comapred with say Ridin's roster (or the SDS defaults). It's hard to see ALL the subtelty just by quick simming everything, but it'll give you a flavor of what I mean.



My 'hope' is that some of the overhaul work SDS spoke about will make player values more relative to those around them (like how madden does where it's not just raw OVR, but also how they stack up with others in the league at their positions). If SDS achieves that, then it would (theoretically) make the progression more 'compatible' with a larger slew of roster motifs and even if it were merely combined with the 'old' formula, would still improve it greatly for a large number of players that use more 'standard' rosters.

You raise a lot of good points. I think a lot of it does boil down to two things we've pointed out. The over valuing of the potential rating and the roster size limitations.

With your example of that high floor, low ceiling player, he has a place in the real league. Not every player will be a star in real life and players like that have a role in nearly every organization. However, the way the CPU views potential, that guy doesn't have nearly as big of a role in The Show because CPU teams don't value that player at all.

One of my biggest issues with the progression system is that while it does have performance based progression, which you probably know I'm not a big fan of, its that even with that influence, in my experience the progression system is too linear.

You can take two 22 year old 80 overall A potential players and in 10 sims they're pretty much always going to progress into the same tier of player. It isn't dynamic enough, in my opinion.

That takes the fun out of building a team in my opinion. The future is too predictable in The Show to me. There's not really any fog of war. As long as your patient, all of your A and B potential players are going to pan out. All of your C and D players will practically never surprise you.

I think the potential rating holds too much value to the CPU and that it also has too much control over a player's future. If a players potential was a bit more unclear and projections weren't so accurate, I'd personally be much happier with the system.

It's similar to the development trait in Madden to me. The CPU values is so much now, and for good reason, as a high development player is just about never going to not progress. I don't like that kind of predictability.

In real life, the MLB draft is a big crapshoot and we all know that. It's anyone's best guess who will pan out, but in MLB The Show you can guess with 90% accuracy who will pan out and who won't. Busts basically don't exist, not in the way that they do in real life. In real life you draft a guy in the first round and hope he pans out. You give him years to see if he does pan out. In The Show you immediately know after you draft the player if they are a bust or not the second you see their potential rating.

That's where my issue lies. I don't want a hidden potential like Madden hides the development trait for half a season, but it still let's you know they're a higher development player. I want a system where you don't have a clue if the guy will pan out or not for a few years and even then he may be a late bloomer and once you give up on him another organization gives him a chance and he blossoms into what you thought he could be the night you drafted him.

Both the User and CPU are too omniscient in the show which is completely opposite of real baseball where its arguably the hardest sport to predict who will make it to the league and stay.

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[SethMurphy]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Franchise Mode and March to October Details From Feature Premiere

I'm still out on buying the new one because I don't own a PS5 and they are going to make features exclusive to the new gen........ and I'm not paying scalpers prices for a PS5 in this bot-community resale market we live in.


Now if I could walk into a Best Buy or Gamestop and buy one for retail on any given day, I might consider it.... otherwise I'm happy to play 20 for a while longer. There aren't any franchise changes so groundbreaking that I need to make the jump. Doesn't seem we will be seeing shareable draft classes (like 2k or Madden) so that the historic rosters can have accurate rookies, and stadium creator being next gen only has me really disinterested.

[JoshC1977]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Franchise Mode and March to October Details From Feature Premiere

One of my biggest issues with the progression system is that while it does have performance based progression, which you probably know I'm not a big fan of, its that even with that influence, in my experience the progression system is too linear.

You can take two 22 year old 80 overall A potential players and in 10 sims they're pretty much always going to progress into the same tier of player. It isn't dynamic enough, in my opinion.

I agree fundamentally, but I also think this is a little bit of where "replicating real life" and "gamer needs" wind-up being a wee bit at odds.

I think MANY folks have an "expectation" that a high potential player will be just that. They want to be "Rewarded" for getting that guy and don't want "randomness" to impact that to a large degree. Right or wrong, I think that's why we do see that. What I'd really like to see is some more volatility in the degree in which performance can impact potentials. If a guy has a down year, don't just drop him 2 potential points, drop him 5-10 (depending on age and so on). Make both good and bad years more impactful; and that rate can vary via positions (pitchers are more volatile than position players). I'm having a very mediocre season with my ace pitcher; and I would have zero problem if he dropped from a 97 potential to 87. Then maybe next season, he rebounds and has a fantastic year...maybe then, he goes back up to a 94.

Just adding "RNG" though to the career path is not going to work for a large number of franchise players. They want to have some degree of "control" over the outcomes. If I have a 27 year old and rake with him; I don't want to see his potential suddenly drop from an 'A' to a 'B' because "dice roll". And to be honest, individual stats for baseball players are much more indicative (if you use the right ones) of player performance than football (where statistical output is more derived from the overall team's performance/usage/scheme). I can appreciate that a pitcher with an excellent FIP is likely pitching extremely well (and perhaps above expectations) for more than I would equate a QB with a high QBR being "better than expected".

I'll close by saying this...my opinion is that for a game like MLBTS, where you actually play the games, you can't just apply randomness to everything; you have to provide some 'reward' for playing well. A simulator, you're watching things from a higher level and I think there's a far greater acceptance and expectation of these types of random outcomes because you aren't vested at the micro level (i.e. with controller in-hand). I'm kind of moderate on this topic, I don't subscribe to a pure XP-based system where the user has total control over progression, but I also believe that you can't just take it completely out of the user's hands....I actually think MLBTS does it better than most console sports games (and would be better with more volatility in potentials).

What I'm hoping for is that some of these "new" systems SDS is putting into the game is going to help drive better variety in valuation and development outcomes. I'm not expecting it to this year per se, but I guess we'll see.

[canes21]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Franchise Mode and March to October Details From Feature Premiere

I understand that for a game like this you cannot be completely random, but that isn't what I'm clamoring for, so if it came off that way, apologies.

I would be okay with the current progression system if we simply didn't instantly know a players potential the second we draft. I think simply having an A be there instantly when he is drafted and basically knowing that guarantees he will pan out is taking too much fun out of the game and making it too predictable.

I'd rather see the potential system give you a window of what they player is expected to be, but they have a chance to progress out of that window, either exceeding expectations or falling short of them. The older a player gets, the smaller their window is indicating their scouting report is more honed in. We typically know what we have in a 29 year old player versus what a 19 year old player could turn into.

You can still have user/player performance impact the potential by it being what causes which way the window shrinks and if they land outside the window. You can make that window a scoutable item so that users can scout guys, see their windows, and feel that reward when a guy lands at the higher side of his window and does pan out.

Going back to the player performance impacting it, say a player has a scouting report that says our scouting department believes he will at least be an everyday starter, but they see the potential to be an all star player. Fast forward 3 years down the road. The user has the guy called up, his window is still that vague as he as performed as expected through minor league ball and now he is getting his shot in the big show.

Let's say in example A the user kills it with him. The guys window now says the guy looks to be almost an all star caliber player, someone who should make multiple all star games in their career. The player raking with the guy tightened his window at the top of the window. There is still a chance the guy can exceed that window, but there's also a sliver of a chance he busts and never reaches the all star level.

Maybe in example A1 the guy progresses as expected by that narrow window and becomes a consistent all star player. The player is reward for making the draft choice and performing with him.

In A2 the guy actually blossoms into a HoF type player and the player is rewarded and then some.

In A3 the guy falls short of expectations and remains an everyday starter/all star replacement type player. He is still solid, it's still a somewhat rewarding draft choice as you still have am everyday talent, but he just didn't hit the higher ceiling.

The user still has an impact here, the scouting department skill level matters, and the players future isn't a guarantee like it just about is in the current system.

Theres a good blend of fog of war and knowing just enough for the user to not feel hopeless and reliant on RNJesus only. Their performance as a user matters and their scouting also pays off.

This would create a system where busts and surprises happen a bit more organically years down the road like real life instead of us instantly knowing the night a player is drafted. This also allows the user to scout a player's potential before they draft them which makes much more sense than having to cross your fingers and hope that when you draft someone they have high potential. More sure fire prospects will come with smaller windows while you can take chances on guys in later rounds who may have huge windows that could swing either way, or maybe in a later round a guy has a smaller window showing he doesn't have top talent, but he can be a role player after some polishing.

It would also be nice if players had different ages where they peaked, similar to 2k or OOTP. You may get a guy who at 24 has a tight window already and isn't going to develop much more. Or you have that same player with an average size window still and you hold onto him thinking when he is 28 he will peak, but over time you see that he actually did peak young at 24.

You can have guys that have their window shrink at 26, but their peak is actually 28 and in 2 years they develop past their window. There are multiple ways to have a system here that gives the user a decent amount of info to not feel hopeless to RNG, but also keep the system from being too easy to predict. Right now the game is too predictable because it is too linear. This system could remain somewhat predictable, with variability that keeps it fresh. Your high potential window player will generally be a solid player, but the variability in their development allows for each franchise to feel unique and dynamic whereas right now they all feel the same since all A's typically progress the same every single franchise and so on.

It would also be nice to tie in these windows to each scouting department and their skills/what they prefer. So when you shop around a prospect, each team has a slightly different report on that player detailing what window they see. The A's may see a window for the prospect saying at best he'll be an average starter while the Twins report says at best he will be top 8 player at his position and they'll value him more in a trade.

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[RogerDodger]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Franchise Mode and March to October Details From Feature Premiere

Using Madden as a comparison is a bit unfair because the functions of contracts, rosters, etc...in football are different than baseball.

I'm not saying its impossible to add this all via a patch as I'm not a developer. But I would caution against using Madden as a comparison because it doesn't have to account for:

* Player option years
* Call ups/send downs
* 28 man rosters across 3 different levels
* Contract Renewable Years
* Arbitration
* Rule 5 Draft

All of those intricate details of contracts and roster rules need to be accounted for when making changes to contract logic, trade logic, and the budget system.

Just my .02

Madden should NEVER be compared to The Show, the two products are so far apart in favor of The Show it’s crazy to do so..

[Sportsfan28]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Franchise Mode and March to October Details From Feature Premiere

Madden should NEVER be compared to The Show, the two products are so far apart in favor of The Show it’s crazy to do so..

I wasn’t comparing the games its self. I was comparing the situation... if EA can pull those major updates to franchise mode mid cycle, anyone can lol


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[ChaseB]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Franchise Mode and March to October Details From Feature Premiere

Is JoshC trying to tell me he won't be doing DD with me this year. I am hurt if so.

[Vmascarello]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Franchise Mode and March to October Details From Feature Premiere

I have been very critical of franchise mode for the past 4 or 5 years. It’s been stuck in quicksand. And besides playing the games, it’s been mostly unplayable for me.

And that’s why I think potentially they did a good job on this cycle. They fixed a lot of the things that made the mode unrealistic and void of any immersion. If all this ‘under the hood’ stuff works properly and it’s vastly improved then I think they can build from here. And hopefully we can get back to enjoying franchise mode.

I think some people are glossing over how awesome ‘stadium creator’ will be. I get that it goes for other modes as well. But it is going to be awesome to have this in franchise mode. It will make the universe you create inside franchise mode so much more immersive. This is the biggest thing they’ve added in a very long time.

I don’t need this game to be OOTP but it seems the fun may be back in franchise mode. Here’s hoping.

[beau21]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Feature Premiere Starting Soon - March to October & Franchise Mod

When talking about the stadium creations in franchise, they mentioned relocation, uniforms, etc. You think it's it the same kind of "rebranding" we had in 20 or something different?

It sounds like it's more than likely the same, which really doesn't matter to me as what we had plus stadium creations could be fairly interesting, but curious if I missed something.

Would be curious on this point as well.
Honestly I just don't have the patience for The Show's current uniform creation tool (especially the logo tool), so if I could download uniforms from others to use in my franchise, I'd be thrilled. Holding out hope for the day that they allow logo uploads or (even better) a Teambuilder-esque PC connected editor tool.

[Blzer]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Feature Premiere Starting Soon - March to October & Franchise Mod

I still think Y2Y was removed this year so they could gut what was needed under the hood for franchise and come back with it in 22. This was kind of my hope from the jump before we heard anything yet about the game this year, at the time at least.

This may not mean a purchase for some this year, but my guess is that if 22 does bring back Y2Y saves then you can take your franchise file from 21 and still import it. Again, it only makes sense that this year doesn't include it since it wouldn't be right to take a 20 file into 21 because of the changes made.

Oh, and still a bunch of blue seats in the created stadiums that we see. I also hope that feature keeps improving over the years, because there will be a massive and stark discrepancy between created stadiums and MLB stadiums. Watch how the video goes from Nationals Park to Tutorial Park, and that genericism screams out at you. This is partially to be expected, but it's also a benchmark for future growth, and I hope they genuinely look at improving it over time... alongside maybe someday working it into franchise budgeting.

[bigd51]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Franchise Mode and March to October Details From Feature Premiere

Usually, I'd look at this type of update and get mad b/c on the surface, not a lot will be added to franchise this year. But you know what? I ain't even mad this time.

One thing I can't stand about Madden is that there is SO much legacy code buried into the game that the team NEVER bothers to clean out, which results in them just trying to paint over old rust w/ every update without fixing the rust first.

So while this update might not be "back-of-the-box" sexy enough, I'm cool w/ it because they're at least addressing core issues which can strengthen the foundation going forward.

I really do like the changes they HAVE made, especially the Fast Track Opportunities. Prospect progression has long been an issue and this looks very promising in addressing that aspect. Hopefully, they'll make it a core feature of Franchise later on and not just a March to October feature for one season.

Overall, player progression and prospect development still needs a lot of work, but this is a great start to that.

[bigd51]

Re: MLB The Show 21 Feature Premiere Starting Soon - March to October & Franchise Mod

Again, it only makes sense that this year doesn't include it since it wouldn't be right to take a 20 file into 21 because of the changes made.

This is my thought, as well. Personally, I don't care about Y2Y saves b/c I don't ever carry over my franchise, but I know it's important to a lot of people. I think Y2Y will definitely make a return very soon. Just need to give it time.