The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

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  • ChiTownKid
    MVP
    • Oct 2002
    • 1002

    #1

    The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

    To start, let me get this out of the way: I don't play online. I won't get into the reasons here, as they're not relevant, but I just don't. So it's not a solution to this problem.

    Generally, I stick to All-Star difficulty against the CPU.

    A couple of years ago, probably with MLBTS 20, my plate discipline sucked, so I adopted a different strategy in my hitting against the CPU. That being, to sit on a location until 2 strikes, and not swing unless the pitch was there. After 2 strikes, swing at anything close. I did this regardless of batter, regardless of circumstances (unless I was bunting).

    Since then, my hitting game has improved greatly. However, as a result, after really committing to this strategy, and finally developing more consistent patience at the plate, a couple of things have become painfully obvious:

    1. The AI pitching is sloppy as hell.
    2. The AI is not patient at the plate.

    I've played about 10 games so far as the White Sox on default All-Star. I haven't lost one game. Scores varied but, more often than not, I kept the CPU under 3 runs, while putting up an average of about 6. In every game, I either pitched a complete game, or went deep (8th/9th) with the starter. All the matches have been vs random opponents, using random spots in the rotation. So, no focus on a single caliber of team or pitcher. I didn't track any stats. These exhibition games are more or less to get a feel for things and find the right settings before the updated rosters drop and I begin my franchise.

    Some general observations after those games:

    - AI pitching is all over the place. A lot of wild pitches, a general lack of consistency.
    - The AI strands a lot of runners. Poor clutch hitting. A lot of low-run, high-hit box scores.
    - The AI will often swing at a first pitch in their cold zone (I use first-pitch view of zones). It's pretty easy to get that first pitch strike.

    That they would swing at those locations so early in the count really translates into them not being patient. I doubt that the AI is even coded to recognize its own hot/cold zones. It should be. It should know, all things being equal, where not to swing on first pitch.

    There were other observations, but those are the ones relevant to this post.

    So, having completed those games with so little trouble, I decided to take my philosophy to HoF difficulty. It feels like it's time to graduate.

    I just played at home vs the Dodgers, Cease vs Urias (3rd rotation spot).

    ____R_H_E
    LAD 0 2 0
    CWS 11 15 0

    I gave the HoF Dodgers a bigger whooping than any of those earlier opponents at All-Star difficulty.

    Now, I'll offer up that one game is not a proper sample, but it certainly doesn't bode well. I'll stay on default HoF for a few more games and see if things change. But here are some noteworthy stats from that game:

    - CPU threw 156 pitches across 3 pitchers. Urias was out in the 5th having thrown 82 pitches and given up 4 runs.
    - I threw 87 pitches for a complete game shutout.

    - AI first-pitch-strike %: 63
    - My first-pitch-strike %: 79

    - My number of takes: 79
    - The AI number of takes: 34

    Something is obviously out of whack. To what extent I suppose is subjective, and I certainly have more testing to do but, to me, this is glaring.

    So, what's my point of this post? Primarily to point it out. For realism's sake, it should be addressed; patched if possible, fixed for next year if not (it doesn't feel like it would be too difficult a thing to do). Secondly, if anyone here is a slider engineer (which I most certainly am not), and you know of slider tweaks that might help this issue, I would be very appreciative.

    And finally, I guess a PSA: Patience pays off. Maybe too well.
    im on ur pitch tacklin ur d00dz
  • bronxbombers21325
    MVP
    • Mar 2012
    • 3058

    #2
    Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

    I bumped up the contact and timing slider for the AI up one. It helped a little, but still the most runs I’ve given up in a game is 6. Somehow even when it should feel like you’re in trouble on the mound, it never feels that way. Seems like they never cash in with runners in scoring position. They loaded the bases 3 times in my last game and scored a total of 1 run, and that was on a sac fly.

    Comment

    • ChiTownKid
      MVP
      • Oct 2002
      • 1002

      #3
      Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

      Originally posted by bronxbombers21325
      Somehow even when it should feel like you’re in trouble on the mound, it never feels that way. Seems like they never cash in with runners in scoring position. They loaded the bases 3 times in my last game and scored a total of 1 run, and that was on a sac fly.
      I've had that same feeling, and often have that same experience.
      im on ur pitch tacklin ur d00dz

      Comment

      • DarthRambo
        MVP
        • Mar 2008
        • 6630

        #4
        Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

        Go check out slider forum. I of course recommend trying the set Bryan and I put together (S & B's). You can't possibly play this game on default and expect a challenge imo.

        If you want to leave things at default then I would at least suggest a couple things. HOF or Legend pitching difficulty and classic pitching interface if not using. And I know most hate it but try quick counts. Makes the game more challenging imo.

        Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
        https://www.youtube.com/DarthRambo

        Comment

        • GR5Noles
          MVP
          • Aug 2010
          • 1255

          #5
          Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

          Try lowering your pitch accuracy. If every pitch is in the zone, the AI is going to swing. But lowering your pitch accuracy will cause you to miss spots more, whether for balls or the AI will capitalize.

          Comment

          • DarthRambo
            MVP
            • Mar 2008
            • 6630

            #6
            Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

            Deleted cause no need to be attacked.
            Last edited by DarthRambo; 04-09-2022, 05:42 PM.
            https://www.youtube.com/DarthRambo

            Comment

            • JayhawkerStL
              Banned
              • Apr 2004
              • 3644

              #7
              Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

              Originally posted by ChiTownKid
              To start, let me get this out of the way: I don't play online. I won't get into the reasons here, as they're not relevant, but I just don't. So it's not a solution to this problem.

              Generally, I stick to All-Star difficulty against the CPU.

              A couple of years ago, probably with MLBTS 20, my plate discipline sucked, so I adopted a different strategy in my hitting against the CPU. That being, to sit on a location until 2 strikes, and not swing unless the pitch was there. After 2 strikes, swing at anything close. I did this regardless of batter, regardless of circumstances (unless I was bunting).

              Since then, my hitting game has improved greatly. However, as a result, after really committing to this strategy, and finally developing more consistent patience at the plate, a couple of things have become painfully obvious:

              1. The AI pitching is sloppy as hell.
              2. The AI is not patient at the plate.

              I've played about 10 games so far as the White Sox on default All-Star. I haven't lost one game. Scores varied but, more often than not, I kept the CPU under 3 runs, while putting up an average of about 6. In every game, I either pitched a complete game, or went deep (8th/9th) with the starter. All the matches have been vs random opponents, using random spots in the rotation. So, no focus on a single caliber of team or pitcher. I didn't track any stats. These exhibition games are more or less to get a feel for things and find the right settings before the updated rosters drop and I begin my franchise.

              Some general observations after those games:

              - AI pitching is all over the place. A lot of wild pitches, a general lack of consistency.
              - The AI strands a lot of runners. Poor clutch hitting. A lot of low-run, high-hit box scores.
              - The AI will often swing at a first pitch in their cold zone (I use first-pitch view of zones). It's pretty easy to get that first pitch strike.

              That they would swing at those locations so early in the count really translates into them not being patient. I doubt that the AI is even coded to recognize its own hot/cold zones. It should be. It should know, all things being equal, where not to swing on first pitch.

              There were other observations, but those are the ones relevant to this post.

              So, having completed those games with so little trouble, I decided to take my philosophy to HoF difficulty. It feels like it's time to graduate.

              I just played at home vs the Dodgers, Cease vs Urias (3rd rotation spot).

              ____R_H_E
              LAD 0 2 0
              CWS 11 15 0

              I gave the HoF Dodgers a bigger whooping than any of those earlier opponents at All-Star difficulty.

              Now, I'll offer up that one game is not a proper sample, but it certainly doesn't bode well. I'll stay on default HoF for a few more games and see if things change. But here are some noteworthy stats from that game:

              - CPU threw 156 pitches across 3 pitchers. Urias was out in the 5th having thrown 82 pitches and given up 4 runs.
              - I threw 87 pitches for a complete game shutout.

              - AI first-pitch-strike %: 63
              - My first-pitch-strike %: 79

              - My number of takes: 79
              - The AI number of takes: 34

              Something is obviously out of whack. To what extent I suppose is subjective, and I certainly have more testing to do but, to me, this is glaring.

              So, what's my point of this post? Primarily to point it out. For realism's sake, it should be addressed; patched if possible, fixed for next year if not (it doesn't feel like it would be too difficult a thing to do). Secondly, if anyone here is a slider engineer (which I most certainly am not), and you know of slider tweaks that might help this issue, I would be very appreciative.

              And finally, I guess a PSA: Patience pays off. Maybe too well.
              I think it would be more useful to drill down farther and look at what you are throwing and swinging at when.

              Looking at the spread between the CPU and me, I throw more low pitches, while the CPU has much more spread. The location and type means a lot, too.

              I think strategy can help this problem more than tweaking sliders.

              Comment

              • JayhawkerStL
                Banned
                • Apr 2004
                • 3644

                #8
                Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

                Originally posted by GR5Noles
                Try lowering your pitch accuracy. If every pitch is in the zone, the AI is going to swing. But lowering your pitch accuracy will cause you to miss spots more, whether for balls or the AI will capitalize.
                See, this is EXACTLY what is wrong with modern slider gurus.

                You look right past the obvious and go straight for sliders so you don’t have to adjust strategy and learn something.

                Yes, throw more pitches outside the zone on purpose. Have a purpose.

                I cannot imagine the cascade of dumb results someone would get from lowering accuracy just to throw more balls. But that keeps slider gurus in business.

                Comment

                • jcar0725
                  "ADAPT OR DIE"
                  • Aug 2010
                  • 3821

                  #9
                  Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

                  Originally posted by JayhawkerStL
                  See, this is EXACTLY what is wrong with modern slider gurus.

                  You look right past the obvious and go straight for sliders so you don’t have to adjust strategy and learn something.

                  Yes, throw more pitches outside the zone on purpose. Have a purpose.

                  I cannot imagine the cascade of dumb results someone would get from lowering accuracy just to throw more balls. But that keeps slider gurus in business.
                  I agree with this 100.

                  Sent from my thoughts
                  JUUUUUUUST A BIT OUTSIDE

                  Comment

                  • Funkycorm
                    Cleveland Baseball Guru
                    • Nov 2016
                    • 3159

                    #10
                    Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

                    What I would ask first is what your pitching strategy is.

                    At 87 pitches for a complete game and near 80 percent strikes, are you just pounding the strike zone? That is 9 pitches per inning and 3 per batter.

                    When the count is 0-2 or 1-2, are you throwing over the plate? You should be throwing outside the zone to change eye level and location and get them to chase something for a swing and miss or weak contact. If I am pitching and ahead 0-2, I am not coming back into the zone until I am at 2-2. I would rather have a hitter hit 4 foul balls on borderline pitches and get his timing off instead of giving him something to hit. Same goes for the CPU when pitching. If I am down 0-2, there is little chance I get a ball to drive at that count. And I shouldn't.

                    I did sliders last year and regretted it because every time some one saw something it gave me slideritis. There are a few sliders that need adjusted this year, but consistency and control are not among them on all star and HoF. (Wind, trade, outfield speed, solid hits, and starter stamina are all I have changed and it plays better than 20, and way better than 21)

                    First thing I would do is change my strategy. If you want realistic results (different ideas for everyone here) you have to play that way. Change your pitching strategy and go from there before you start messing with control and consistency sliders. If that doesn't help, change the difficulty.

                    Also I may have missed it but pitching interface are you using. If meter, changing to classic will help this too. And definitely before I would go to change consistency and control. Also turn off the hot zones.

                    Edit: I use classic pitching with classic fade.
                    Last edited by Funkycorm; 04-08-2022, 04:58 PM.
                    Funkycorm

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                    Comment

                    • jcar0725
                      "ADAPT OR DIE"
                      • Aug 2010
                      • 3821

                      #11
                      Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

                      Originally posted by Funkycorm
                      What I would ask first is what your pitching strategy is.

                      At 87 pitches for a complete game and near 80 percent strikes, are you just pounding the strike zone? That is 9 pitches per inning and 3 per batter.

                      When the count is 0-2 or 1-2, are you throwing over the plate? You should be throwing outside the zone to change eye level and location and get them to chase something for a swing and miss or weak contact. If I am pitching and ahead 0-2, I am not coming back into the zone until I am at 2-2. I would rather have a hitter hit 4 foul balls on borderline pitches and get his timing off instead of giving him something to hit. Same goes for the CPU when pitching. If I am down 0-2, there is little chance I get a ball to drive at that count. And I shouldn't.

                      I did sliders last year and regretted it because every time some one saw something it gave me slideritis. There are a few sliders that need adjusted this year, but consistency and control are not among them on all star and HoF. (Wind, trade, outfield speed, solid hits, and starter stamina are all I have changed and it plays better than 20, and way better than 21)

                      First thing I would do is change my strategy. If you want realistic results (different ideas for everyone here) you have to play that way. Change your pitching strategy and go from there before you start messing with control and consistency sliders. If that doesn't help, change the difficulty.

                      Also I may have missed it but pitching interface are you using. If meter, changing to classic will help this too. And definitely before I would go to change consistency and control. Also turn off the hot zones.

                      Edit: I use classic pitching with classic fade.
                      Agree. If someone for example is using classic pitching on hall of fame with no slider tweaking, and throwing every pitch in the strike zone, eventually they will get crushed. It might work for a short stretch of time, but eventually you get crushed that way .

                      Sent from my thoughts
                      JUUUUUUUST A BIT OUTSIDE

                      Comment

                      • Seancefc
                        Rookie
                        • May 2014
                        • 442

                        #12
                        Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

                        I’ve notched up CPU contact to 8/10 on legendary and now I’m much more deliberate with my pitches…I’m walking more hitters as a result of being scared to give them anything over the plate and they chase less. It’s a pretty good reflection of how real life batters act.

                        I found in 21 I could pretty much pitch the ball to the exact spot I wanted 9/10 times so have decreased my pitcher control and also consistency (may not be called that!), I’ve done the same in 22 and have found a really enjoyable balance.

                        Start with sliders to see if that gives you desired results, if not increase difficulty.

                        Comment

                        • strosdood
                          MVP
                          • Nov 2020
                          • 1167

                          #13
                          Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

                          I think All Star difficulty is the first thing u have to consider changing, try armors sliders and play style as I really find his set enjoyable and realistic


                          Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

                          Comment

                          • DarthRambo
                            MVP
                            • Mar 2008
                            • 6630

                            #14
                            Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

                            Deleted cause no need to be attacked.
                            Last edited by DarthRambo; 04-09-2022, 05:41 PM.
                            https://www.youtube.com/DarthRambo

                            Comment

                            • KnightTemplar
                              MVP
                              • Feb 2017
                              • 3282

                              #15
                              Re: The AI does not know how to be patient at the plate

                              Game out of the box doesn’t fit everyone’s ability with the controller, thus sliders. That’s what they’re there for. I do believe a lot of people want instant gratification and can get into a continual cycle of slider adjustments. Just my opinion.

                              For me, I don’t touch them. I use classic pitching with ball fade. For a “good” time I will turn it off and go with the feel. The attributes of the pitchers are enough that you don’t necessarily have to throw off the plate but a lot of factors/attributes will/may do that for you.

                              For me I love playing with the hitters then nail them on an ugly swing on a ball up and in out of the strike zone. The CPU WILL chase pitches. That’s the beauty of the pitcher/batter duel.

                              I have never used anyone else’s sliders regardless of how good someone claims they are. I’ll go with default and IF I feel something isn’t right I just experiment on my own, but so far, so good.

                              I play AS v AS.
                              Last edited by KnightTemplar; 04-08-2022, 07:03 PM.

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