AI Bullpen Logic

[MiracleMet718]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

What you're saying is the team that is over gameplay logic would have to improve gameplay logic? That's what we've been asking for for years. Managerial decisions by CPU controlled teams have been a major weakness with the gameplay for what feels like at least a decade at this point. Lineup construction, pitching staff construction, and in-game decision making have all been subpar for years and years now.

Whether it is an easy fix or not is irrelevant. This has been a problem for a very long time and fixing it is far from an unrealistic and impossible task. It's a AAA game that is priced at a AAA price. Given that, there are certain expectations that are placed on the game and in many areas SDS has met them. In others, they've not and it is completely fair to criticize them for that.

Your post feels more like a pity excuse post than an actual legitimate reason post, honestly, no offense intended. Imagine if I went to my CEO today and said sorry but I am not getting the financial statements out to the shareholders today. Reconciling some of the prior period adjustments is difficult and despite it being my job I don't feel like doing it. Maybe next year.

I'd get laughed at and then if I persisted with it, I'd be out of a job. It often feels like video game developers get held to a different standard than other occupations out there where whenever something is perceived as difficult we should just shrug our shoulders and forgive them for not doing part of their job to the expected quality as if they should only be asked to do easy tasks.

In no way am I making an excuse for them. You said they clearly don’t know about the issue, I was just explaining that they do and they need to make a decision of whether to spend time and resources fixing it versus updating and fixing other areas of the game. That time includes implementing the fix, testing it across multiple modes and scenarios, and making any additional tweaks/fixes with more testing required.

As for your example, I don’t quite understand it since we are not the CEOs, we are the customers. DD is the money maker of MLBTS and where most people play and that’s the focus of any business, making money. Their main focus will always be on this mode because it impacts the most amount of players of the game. Bullpen logic doesn’t really impact DD as much because outside of some of the single player options, it’s not relevant.

I’m someone who, like others in this thread, mostly plays franchise so I think they need to fix not only bullpen logic, but roster logic overall including lineup selection. It’s been a needed fix for years. However I also understand that in order to fix it, they need to rebuild a lot of the logic already in the game and that can create a load of other issues in other modes. It technically works as is, so until they can implement a full detailed fix, it hasn’t changed. If they changed it and it broke things, people would lose their minds and ask why they touched it to begin with if it was just going to break it. So might as well get it right across all modes instead of risking making it potentially worse.

Now how long that is taking? They have already run out of runway and will need to fix pretty soon or the hardcore franchise guys just will stop playing it and move onto something else. So hopefully it happens soon, but if not I can understand why and make my decision to just not play/purchase the game anymore.

[MiracleMet718]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

So I think you may be overcomplicating the problem. I want the bullpen logic fixed where , for the last 8 years, they only use "setup" men in the 8th inning when up 3 runs or less and them using solely the same LR over and over basically any inning before the 7th.

You kind of jumped to them coding every single manager with different logic. Im not even sure that's possible because even IRL, the personnel and other things factor into how any manager uses their bullpen. I just want some sort of variety because at this point, I can almost tell you exactly who they are and aren't going to use at all times because its the same logic, that doesn't make sense, for every team for the past 8 years.

Maybe they could get rid of the LRP spot and change how all teams use their setup man. Maybe they could add those trait things to players that maybe say "tired arm - this pitcher cant throw 3 games in row". TBH, I think them just randomizing what RP the cpu uses or just prioritizing the most rested R would have better results at this time.

And you are right, Someone that went to community day a couple years ago said they ARE aware of these issues and that they were having problems with editing legacy code. That's a reason but not a valid excuse to not touch broken logic for 8 years. While it may not be the current devs fault, someone def dropped the ball with building code, that doesn't work well, and would not be able to be edited for close 10 years.

It’s not me overcomplicating the problem, it’s the reality of how they need to fix it based on the decision making required in each mode for how it’s currently in the game. I do agree that it can be simplified, but again you’ll have people complaining that it’s not enough variety.

I actually think the biggest issue with current bullpen logic is not taking into account stamina and rest days, which I think also contributes to the setup/closer issues as well. So many times I’ve played where I’m either up big and they put in a LRP who just pitched the day before and has barely any stamina left. Or even a close game where the closer has worked 3 days in a row and they put him in again on the 4th day when he has no stamina.

If they were able to change it so it’s simply took into account stamina and scenario importance (i.e. 2-3-4 hitters in the 8th, bring in closer), that would go a long way. I know it’s not that easy to solve that way but it would be better than what they have now. Ideally they’d also add in more pitcher roster movement so guys go up and down like they do in the real MLB to help with the innings.

[canes21]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

What if the CEO's are the ones making the final decisions on where the developers are spending their time, and how much time they are allowed to spend in those areas? You literally have zero clue how management and projects, fees, time management, and making a profit work. And you have zero clue what goes on inside the SDS studios when it comes to game development and making money for a company.

Every single sports game has warts, every one of them. Because they have X amount of time and resources to spend each year in game development. And they likely have someone telling them what they can and can't do. As much as I would LOVE the bullpen and lineup logic to be fixed, the hardcore franchise player who is upset about bullpen logic is NOT the core audience that makes money for this game, or any other sports game.

I think who is making the decision is completely irrelevant. I am not looking to blame any particular person or team. I judge SDS as a whole, simple as that, so me not knowing exactly how the management, projects, fees, time management, etc. work within the company doesn't really matter.

I am a consumer and will judge the final product based on what I particularly want from it among other things.

Nobody said other sports games were perfect, either. That's a bit of a straw man with you leaping to that argument when it was never even hinted at.

You're getting a little lost in the woods, I think. It's very simple. The game is a product and I am the consumer. Like any other product and like any other consumer, I have specific wants/needs with the product. If they are met, I am satisfied and will give the team behind the product praise. If I am disappointed with the product, I will work to voice my displeasure in a constructive manner.

That's all there is to it. I don't care who is making the decisions, I don't care how their team is structured, I don't care who the core audience is and what they want. All I see is a AAA MLB game that is released at a AAA price so I set my own personal expectations with the game. If SDS improved all the areas of the game I wanted improved, I'd sing their praise and buy the game. If they don't, like has been the case for years, I'll simply voice my displeasure, try to constructively display what I want from the game, then move on.

You're getting a bit too deep with it, imo.

[jcar0725]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

I think who is making the decision is completely irrelevant. I am not looking to blame any particular person or team. I judge SDS as a whole, simple as that, so me not knowing exactly how the management, projects, fees, time management, etc. work within the company doesn't really matter.

I am a consumer and will judge the final product based on what I particularly want from it among other things.

Nobody said other sports games were perfect, either. That's a bit of a straw man with you leaping to that argument when it was never even hinted at.

You're getting a little lost in the woods, I think. It's very simple. The game is a product and I am the consumer. Like any other product and like any other consumer, I have specific wants/needs with the product. If they are met, I am satisfied and will give the team behind the product praise. If I am disappointed with the product, I will work to voice my displeasure in a constructive manner.

That's all there is to it. I don't care who is making the decisions, I don't care how their team is structured, I don't care who the core audience is and what they want. All I see is a AAA MLB game that is released at a AAA price so I set my own personal expectations with the game. If SDS improved all the areas of the game I wanted improved, I'd sing their praise and buy the game. If they don't, like has been the case for years, I'll simply voice my displeasure, try to constructively display what I want from the game, then move on.

You're getting a bit too deep with it, imo.

Fair enough man, but your last 2 paragraphs seemed to be targeting a smaller group of people, and not the company as a whole. All good.

[canes21]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

In no way am I making an excuse for them. You said they clearly don’t know about the issue, I was just explaining that they do and they need to make a decision of whether to spend time and resources fixing it versus updating and fixing other areas of the game. That time includes implementing the fix, testing it across multiple modes and scenarios, and making any additional tweaks/fixes with more testing required.

As for your example, I don’t quite understand it since we are not the CEOs, we are the customers. DD is the money maker of MLBTS and where most people play and that’s the focus of any business, making money. Their main focus will always be on this mode because it impacts the most amount of players of the game. Bullpen logic doesn’t really impact DD as much because outside of some of the single player options, it’s not relevant.

I’m someone who, like others in this thread, mostly plays franchise so I think they need to fix not only bullpen logic, but roster logic overall including lineup selection. It’s been a needed fix for years. However I also understand that in order to fix it, they need to rebuild a lot of the logic already in the game and that can create a load of other issues in other modes. It technically works as is, so until they can implement a full detailed fix, it hasn’t changed. If they changed it and it broke things, people would lose their minds and ask why they touched it to begin with if it was just going to break it. So might as well get it right across all modes instead of risking making it potentially worse.

Now how long that is taking? They have already run out of runway and will need to fix pretty soon or the hardcore franchise guys just will stop playing it and move onto something else. So hopefully it happens soon, but if not I can understand why and make my decision to just not play/purchase the game anymore.

My comment was said more in jest. It's not very deep. The original post I was replying to was implying the logic was rough enough SDS should be able to identify the issues without a message board full of people pointing it out. I was simply making a lighthearted comment on the situation with the context that this has been an issue with the series for nearly a decade now so maybe they actually do need it pointed out to them.

I think like the other post I replied to, you're getting lost in the woods here. Everyone here knows how companies operate. They don't have endless amounts of resources and have to make decisions on where to allocate resources. It can be safely assumed, imo, that anyone commenting in this thread understands that.

I don't need to know why they make the decisions they do. I don't need to know why the bullpen logic is as poor as it is. I just need to know if it is getting fixed or not. If it is, credit to SDS, if not, I will try to give constructive criticism and hope that eventually they win me back as a customer again one day. Simple as that.

[djflock]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

My comment was said more in jest. It's not very deep. The original post I was replying to was implying the logic was rough enough SDS should be able to identify the issues without a message board full of people pointing it out. I was simply making a lighthearted comment on the situation with the context that this has been an issue with the series for nearly a decade now so maybe they actually do need it pointed out to them.

I think like the other post I replied to, you're getting lost in the woods here. Everyone here knows how companies operate. They don't have endless amounts of resources and have to make decisions on where to allocate resources. It can be safely assumed, imo, that anyone commenting in this thread understands that.

I don't need to know why they make the decisions they do. I don't need to know why the bullpen logic is as poor as it is. I just need to know if it is getting fixed or not. If it is, credit to SDS, if not, I will try to give constructive criticism and hope that eventually they win me back as a customer again one day. Simple as that.

Perfectly said. I think I def have way more frustration than you because I AM going to buy the game and then bang my head against the wall for 6 months while I force myself to rotate Pitchers and manage lineups for 29 other teams lol

[jcar0725]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Perfectly said. I think I def have way more frustration than you because I AM going to buy the game and then bang my head against the wall for 6 months while I force myself to rotate Pitchers and manage lineups for 29 other teams lol

If I'm not mistaken, the issue is more with simming than playing the games. If i set up each CPU team with 6 starters and 5 relievers, I seem to see a good amount of their relievers in a 3 or 4 game series.

[djflock]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

If I'm not mistaken, the issue is more with simming than playing the games. If i set up each CPU team with 6 starters and 5 relievers, I seem to see a good amount of their relievers in a 3 or 4 game series.

It honestly depends on the game script. If you play a 3 game series where you get a big lead early , you will see that same LR and never see close or setup guy.

But in game usage , def is better than simming. In games , I have just been putting the cpu manager hook at 0 and then I just sub their P's. Not a huge hassle or anything but all these little things add up for me.

[MiracleMet718]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

My comment was said more in jest. It's not very deep. The original post I was replying to was implying the logic was rough enough SDS should be able to identify the issues without a message board full of people pointing it out. I was simply making a lighthearted comment on the situation with the context that this has been an issue with the series for nearly a decade now so maybe they actually do need it pointed out to them.

I think like the other post I replied to, you're getting lost in the woods here. Everyone here knows how companies operate. They don't have endless amounts of resources and have to make decisions on where to allocate resources. It can be safely assumed, imo, that anyone commenting in this thread understands that.

I don't need to know why they make the decisions they do. I don't need to know why the bullpen logic is as poor as it is. I just need to know if it is getting fixed or not. If it is, credit to SDS, if not, I will try to give constructive criticism and hope that eventually they win me back as a customer again one day. Simple as that.

Completely fair and I agree with it. I guess it’s more that I feel a lot of people here (not you guys) on the forums seem to make a huge deal about things like this when in reality, it’s just like you said. Either they fix it and I’m happy with it or they don’t and I decide if the other parts of the game are worth it for me to purchase. Otherwise I just don’t buy the game anymore if it doesn’t have things that appeal to me.

[djflock]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Completely fair and I agree with it. I guess it’s more that I feel a lot of people here (not you guys) on the forums seem to make a huge deal about things like this when in reality, it’s just like you said. Either they fix it and I’m happy with it or they don’t and I decide if the other parts of the game are worth it for me to purchase. Otherwise I just don’t buy the game anymore if it doesn’t have things that appeal to me.

And who knows man… this is a long shot but they have hired ppl from this community. Maybe if we get some steam on here going about bullpen usage, one of those guys can bring up in a meeting with leadership ,”ive seen alot of chatter about the bullpen/lineup logic. Maybe its something we can try to prioritize this cycle” . I know its a longshot but if we shut down ppl griping about it, and tell them to accept it, it will never happen.

Not saying you’re trying to shut it down but just some thoughts and maybe a diff perspective. I honestly think we have had good productive discourse on this issue here in the past couple days. Seems like everyone is engaging in good faith.

[MiracleMet718]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

And who knows man… this is a long shot but they have hired ppl from this community. Maybe if we get some steam on here going about bullpen usage, one of those guys can bring up in a meeting with leadership ,”ive seen alot of chatter about the bullpen/lineup logic. Maybe its something we can try to prioritize this cycle” . I know its a longshot but if we shut down ppl griping about it, and tell them to accept it, it will never happen.

Not saying you’re trying to shut it down but just some thoughts and maybe a diff perspective. I honestly think we have had good productive discourse on this issue here in the past couple days. Seems like everyone is engaging in good faith.

We all want it fixed and it should be talked about for sure. Just have to keep our expectations in check.

But they better get it fixed next year if it’s not already

[countryboy]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

And who knows man… this is a long shot but they have hired ppl from this community. Maybe if we get some steam on here going about bullpen usage, one of those guys can bring up in a meeting with leadership ,”ive seen alot of chatter about the bullpen/lineup logic. Maybe its something we can try to prioritize this cycle” . I know its a longshot but if we shut down ppl griping about it, and tell them to accept it, it will never happen.

Not saying you’re trying to shut it down but just some thoughts and maybe a diff perspective. I honestly think we have had good productive discourse on this issue here in the past couple days. Seems like everyone is engaging in good faith.

They are aware of the issues with bullpen logic and It has been discussed.


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[djflock]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

They are aware of the issues with bullpen logic and It has been discussed.


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Appreciate that! Why did you hold that from us for so long lmao

[countryboy]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Appreciate that! Why did you hold that from us for so long lmao

I mentioned it earlier in a thread


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[bcruise]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

I don't doubt that they've known about the logic issues since Tim Barnes was hired there (and most likely before, given how closely they watch this board - not replying does not mean they aren't aware). It always comes down to time and priorities - not the dev team priorities, but those of the higher-ups that tell the devs what to work on.

Hearing they've discussed it is good news, though.