AI Bullpen Logic

[djflock]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Even though it’s decision making, they still have to test it with all of the other features of gameplay vs OOTP where it’s just a simple decision making tool. It’s still long overdue for a fix, but I don’t think it’s just that easy to update the logic and be done with it.

I don't think the "ease" should be a concern. This logic is from the ps3 game and they don't charge us any less for the game.

[djflock]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Just going to step in here to contribute something - take for what it's worth. It's already been well established that LR slot innings are too high - in no way am I disputing that. I think part of it is from Starting Pitchers getting demoted and others making spot starts, but what I want to discuss is the actual in-game decisions that cause those numbers to balloon over the course of a whole year.

Since I play a lot of games I can keep a close eye on who the CPU is using and what the situations are when it brings them in. And I know for a fact that Manager Hook has a strong effect on when someone comes in, both in played games and sims. I currently have it maxed out to try to minimize the number of complete games across the league. As a test, I also have both starter and reliever stamina maxed - the idea being that I want game situation to be the only thing that matters to the CPU when making a pitching change.

I'll be letting CPU vs CPU games play out a ways into a season to see how the CPU's bullpen usage goes.

Opening Day was a pleasant surprise.





Every one of those guys besides the starters is MRP or later in the pen. This was a close game, which means that with manager hook up, the manager was much more likely to make changes if a runner got on base or something. I saw this as a very well-managed game.

So, it CAN happen - it's not like the CPU is just going to go to its long relief automatically in the late innings of a close game, and in this particular case with everyone at full energy on Opening Day it went for its best options. I want to figure out WHY it ends up in LR's getting too many innings, and if it has anything to do with the usual relief guys being at less than full energy.

Played games are the easy part for me. I just make their pitching changes for them.

[canes21]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

How did I know you would respond to this......lol

Am I not supposed to talk about this topic?

[canes21]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

How is it a bad example ?

Baseball game logic of reliever skill, situation and time of a game are the same in a game whether it’s a text sim or displayed in pretty graphics.

It’s the under the hood decision making/programming that needs adjusting, that has nothing to do with what the graphics look like.

This is too true. Too many people don't understand that OOTP being a text sim does not really change anything about how the logic on and off the field works compared to The Show. They are both going to be built in the same way. Having graphics and on field gameplay does not change this.

[DallasRocks]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

The fact this is still an issue is one of the many reasons I won’t get this years version. It’s been a game killer for years and they blatantly ignore it. We shouldn’t have to do work arounds for teams to try and compete to win. It’s like playing Mahomes in Madden and when you get a lead they put in the backup and give up.

[canes21]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

The fact this is still an issue is one of the many reasons I won’t get this years version. It’s been a game killer for years and they blatantly ignore it. We shouldn’t have to do work arounds for teams to try and compete to win. It’s like playing Mahomes in Madden and when you get a lead they put in the backup and give up.

This is easily as big an issue as the play calling issue in Madden where all teams pass 75% of the time at least no matter what. Both are examples of the CPU not behaving anywhere close to a real life team. I can't believe in 2024 we still deal with nonsense like this.

[ripwalk]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Even though it’s decision making, they still have to test it with all of the other features of gameplay vs OOTP where it’s just a simple decision making tool. It’s still long overdue for a fix, but I don’t think it’s just that easy to update the logic and be done with it.

Yeah, never said it’s easy to change…. But agree to disagree on the rest.

If we were talking about a graphical upgrade being easier in OOTP, then sure that would make sense as it’s a simpler graphical game.

But the AI logic of when to replace a pitcher and who to replace him with is just as much a “simple decision making tool” in The Show as it would be in OOTP. It shouldn’t have anything to do with anything else related to graphics/gameplay.

[Ghost Of The Year]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

While trying to get a better understanding of how the logic works in MLB23, I see that the Twins have Jhoan Duran listed as a Closer, yet the AI CPU slots him as the setup man, while it takes regular reliever Dylan Floro and designates him in the closer slot. That is all fine and dandy, I have no problem with the better pitcher closing games. HOWEVER, here's where the AI loses me. Floro's OverAll is 76 while Duran's is 83. That's not really close in my personal opinion. A couple points I can understand. But clearly Duran is the better pitcher, OverAll. Then I start looking at their Clutch rating, Duran 99, Floro 72. Again, not close. Then I look at further attributes:
Duran H9 90, K9 84, BB9 58, HR9 69 - that totals 301 ''points''.

Floro H9 72, K9 62, BB9 75, HR9 83 - 292 total ''points''.

What is at play here causing Floro to be a better option as closer? According to Floro's 2022 Show WAR stat, he earned a 1. Duran earned a 1.7. WAR (Baseball Reference gave Floro .8 WAR and Duran 2.8) Also, these are the last live rosters, which factor in the 2023 season. Duran WAR for '23 was 1.9 and Floro looks to be zero WAR.

Thank-you if anyone with a better grasp than me, knows what is at play here. Headscratcher.

I recreated this scenario in 24 an I guess they did some sort of logic tweak. Reliever Floro is setup and Jhoan is Closer as he should be.

[canes21]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Even though it’s decision making, they still have to test it with all of the other features of gameplay vs OOTP where it’s just a simple decision making tool. It’s still long overdue for a fix, but I don’t think it’s just that easy to update the logic and be done with it.

OOTP has as much depth to its gameplay during the game that The Show has, likely even more logic built into it, so, if anything, changing and updating the logic in OOTP is likely more complicated than it is in The Show.

The Show having prettier graphics and having the ability to let the user play the game with a controller controlling players will not impact the other areas of the game like logic. It's not going to make SDS have to jump through more hoops to create bullpen or lineup logic vs how it is done in OOTP.

The guy you're replying to is 100% right. This is beyond simplified, but you're still going to have both games structured in a way where it looks at the score, inning, current pitcher's performance, confidence, and stamina, the lineup, the bullpen arms in terms of skill and energy levels, and then have those drive the decisions that are made.

The Show's logic is either too simple or not working properly and that's why the issue for years has been the LR coming in in all situations no matter how dead his arm is. Regardless, updating the logic is going to be a similar task in The Show or OOTP because the graphics and controllable gameplay isn't going to really change how any of that logic is fleshed out.

[jcar0725]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Am I not supposed to talk about this topic?

Just messing with ya dude

[strosdood]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

OOTP has as much depth to its gameplay during the game that The Show has, likely even more logic built into it, so, if anything, changing and updating the logic in OOTP is likely more complicated than it is in The Show.

The Show having prettier graphics and having the ability to let the user play the game with a controller controlling players will not impact the other areas of the game like logic. It's not going to make SDS have to jump through more hoops to create bullpen or lineup logic vs how it is done in OOTP.

The guy you're replying to is 100% right. This is beyond simplified, but you're still going to have both games structured in a way where it looks at the score, inning, current pitcher's performance, confidence, and stamina, the lineup, the bullpen arms in terms of skill and energy levels, and then have those drive the decisions that are made.

The Show's logic is either too simple or not working properly and that's why the issue for years has been the LR coming in in all situations no matter how dead his arm is. Regardless, updating the logic is going to be a similar task in The Show or OOTP because the graphics and controllable gameplay isn't going to really change how any of that logic is fleshed out.

Wouldn’t, or shouldn’t OOTP have a better “off the field” experience since it’s all their game is based on? Like obviously they’re gonna offer a great sim product, it’s all the game is lol, u act as if the show isn’t really good in that aspect and phenomenal in the area it matters most which is on the field gameplay

[Ghost Of The Year]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Wouldn’t, or shouldn’t OOTP have a better “off the field” experience since it’s all their game is based on? Like obviously they’re gonna offer a great sim product, it’s all the game is lol, u act as if the show isn’t really good in that aspect and phenomenal in the area it matters most which is on the field gameplay

What I wonder about the MLBTS is the many lines of code for gameplay , graphics , and artificial intelligence for the CPU , how close to full is memory space, how high the capacity. If there's very little room to work with, maybe they could look into cutting corners with gameplay, sacrifice some space and use it for CPU A.I. and graphics.

[LegendKillerOne]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Has anyone considered that maybe just OOTP is better at writing code ? Just because that is true does not mean SDS is garbage is just means like anything in life someone is better than someone else at something

[canes21]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

Wouldn’t, or shouldn’t OOTP have a better “off the field” experience since it’s all their game is based on? Like obviously they’re gonna offer a great sim product, it’s all the game is lol, u act as if the show isn’t really good in that aspect and phenomenal in the area it matters most which is on the field gameplay

I wouldn't say it is that simple. The OOTP dev team is tiny and has not even a fraction the resources that the AAA first party developer SDS has.

Also, the teams for both games are going to split up into different teams, obviously. The Show will have people that work only on CPU logic, others that work only on the graphical side of the game, etc. OOTP is the same way. The guys that are working on the pitching and batting system are likely not the same guys working on the managerial logic.

I think the simplest explanation is just the fact that SDS doesn't prioritize this issue because the amount of people that even realize it exists is far too small for them to care about. Even on this forum that is a small niche of franchise diehards/offline focused gamers, this issue isn't even a killer for more than half the members here, so you know the average casual fan of the series isn't going to be bothered by it.

I don't think it has anything to do with the ability of each dev team. OOTP has talented guys working on the game, so does SDS. I don't see how my posts were indicating that The Show isn't good or "phenomenal" in other areas. The Show does plenty well, it's just issues like this are too big for someone like me to ignore and it basically outweighs many of the positives. The game can play very well all over the field, but when 90+% of my games are going to have the CPU manager mismanaging his team in a way that would never be seen in reality, it takes away from the experience for me.

That's why when I do play, it's typically DD anymore and not franchise mode. I don't have to deal with CPU lacking a brain while still getting to experience the good gameplay along with seeing my favorite players from past eras.

[Redwings19c]

Re: AI Bullpen Logic

The logic is definitely the same for simmed games. 2nd SU man finishing the season with 30 innings while the LRP had over 200

Thanks, I was expecting it. Still a bummer.


Does anyone of you have a link to how to manage the CPU bullpen in a all team control franchise? I remember, you should put the player with the lowest stamina into the LRP slot and shouldn´t use the second SU spot. But what about the CP? Should it be the real CP?

And is there a difference between simulated games and games where you actually face the CPU? Should you then change the Bullpen, when facing a team?