Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

[TripleThreat1973]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

FWIW, I play with Fielder speed at zero. It was the first thing I noticed with this game (I'm new to the Show this year). Not only do the Jack Cust's of the world catch most stuff at the track, but they do so while coasting, almost as if it they were bored. For me, this works to my advantage because I can play TCQ or Andruw Jones anywhere in the OF without defensive penalty. So, I'm not complaining because it's hurting me. I'm complaining because I see Cust, Kubel, Vlad, etc coasting to decently struck balls and catching them on the jog, at the track.

With solid hits at zero, I feel as though I could play with no outfielders. Routine grounder, pop up, or strike out. I play as the White Sox, which are a pretty good pitching and lightish hitting team.

But with S'Hits (I love that) at zero, I can have a decent hitter (Alexei Ramirez versus lefties) hit a ball that reads "solid contact, timing perfect" and it'll be a 3-hop routine grounder to short. I check the batting feedback continuosly because I don;t want to complain about the soft hitting if it is, in fact, me that's terrible. But, I'll hit a good hitter's pitch with what seems like good contact and get a routine, ho hum play, and then I'll check the feedback and see "wheelhouse, timing perfect" and wonder why it wasn't even a line drive.

There is no need to fear the AI hitters because the only way they're scoring is if you give up 3 singles in one inning ... and that rarely, if ever happens.

But, it's mostly frustrating when I am pitching. There's just no reason to fear the AI hitters with S'Hits at zero. You know you're not going to give up anything (All-Star, Perfect Sliders) that's going to lead to a crooked number.

S'Hits at 2 results in about 1/3 to 1/2 of the total hits being for extra bases, and 90% of the runs will come via the homer. So, maybe S'Hits at one is worth a try.

Most of my games tend to be of the 1-1 variety going into the 7th ... as if it were Christy Mathewson versus Jack Chesbro.

[TripleThreat1973]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

We all want and expect the perfect game, but realistically we are playing a video game so we just have to keep that in mind every time we see something "funny" that our first reaction is to complain about.

This is interesting to me.

I bought a PS# and The Show just because the game has essentially been the same for 4-5 years without significant innovation. So, i figured the gameplay was darn near flawless. I do really enjoy the game, but what we are discussing here is something significant in terms of how it affects gameplay, outcomes, and realism. In terms of run prevention, having solid outfielders is a major factor in MLB. I would expect The Show to reflect that.

It's not as if they've been spending a ton of time graphically enhancing the game, adding innovation to the controls, etc.

I come to The Show from MVP (Modded PC) and 2K. All I heard about was how the gameplay is so great that you won't even mind the "meter" pitching or the fact that the game rarely changes year to year.

I wouldn't consider this to be something minor. Having would-be DH's cruising the OF as if they were Andy Van Slyke is a big deal. Nothing worth getting all bent ... but worth looking into as it could be something that is easily fixed with some minor changes.

But, no, slider tweaks do not fix the issue. As I learned with 2K games, sliders do not fix programming.

Juan Pierre can literally cover (with fielder speed at zero) centerfield to the stands. TCQ is essentially the same in RF.

After 35 games, I hit my first ball oer an outfielder's head that stayed in the ballpark. Alexei Ramirez hit one high off the wall that Adam Lind missed while jumping. I have never seen, for either team, a ball get over an outfielder's head, one-hop the wall, and then the OF play it off the ricochet and throw it to the cutoff man. 20 years of playing, 10 years of coaching, and a lifetime of observing tells me that is not realism ... and it is a significant aspect, as if drastically affects run scoring ... which causes one to look for other ways of manipulating sliders to increase the run scoring without increasing home runs to the point that it becomes an arcade game ... like 2K.

[teddyballgame78]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

I just hit a line drive double over the LF is was kinda funny he was running with his back turned and stopped then dove and the ball dropped in front of him.

Should note it was Mark DeRosa.

[jim416]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Triplethreat1973

What level are you playing on that you don't fear the AI hitting? Have you put the game on HOF, or LEGEND and you have the same conclusion????

Everyone definitely has different experiences and different talent playing the game, but to say the game is nothing more than a pitching duel up until the 7th, then I dunno. I go anywhere near HOF or LEGEND, game over for me and I'm a pretty good gamer, but I'm going to get my butt handed to me, usually.

This game can be tweaked to please most gamers.

[ParisB]

Not in my experiences TripleThreat. I see plenty of homeruns and doubles from me and the CPU with Solid Hits at 0.

I've found a great balance for me that allows me to forget about some of the problems.

[jmik58]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

I keep seeing the discussion turn towards a lack of doubles.

Let me reiterate, this is not just about creating more doubles. The issue with alignment (depth) is that the outfielders get to deep shots to the gaps that they should not get to, or deep shots at the wall at any spot for that matter.

I do realize there are sliders that can help to alleviate the issue of doubles, but the sliders don't move the fielders.

The fact that people can remember singular moments when they've seen a certain type of double or extra base hit, only helps to prove that this is an issue that effects realism.

Again, we're talking about alignment. If you're a fan of baseball, and realistic at that, how can you be ok with something as fundamental as misalignment of players? It should be unacceptable.

Should we lose sleep over it, no. But there's nothing wrong with pointing it out so that something can be done about it.

We pay for the games and have the right to provide feedback as a consumer. SCEA has shown they are willing to listen to consumer concerns and will make real changes. That's my hope for this is that enough of us will simply agree that there is something that needs to be done and let our voices speak loud enough that SCEA acknowledges our concerns.

Maybe something will be done. Maybe it won't. It's worth a shot though.

[jim416]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Well, sorry, I was answering another poster. You've made your point about alignment.
Sliders do effect outcome.

But deep shots to the gaps that aren't caught? They're in the game. I'm not getting this, really. You want different alignment, okay, but there are "workarounds" if a slider is a workaround. That's what they're there for. But, you've made your point about alignment.

[TripleThreat1973]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Triplethreat1973

What level are you playing on that you don't fear the AI hitting? Have you put the game on HOF, or LEGEND and you have the same conclusion????

I only experience that when Solid Hits are set to zero. When I put it at 2 (what I play with), I get nailed when I miss spots. Using the White Sox, on All-Star level.

Again, I was only commenting on the situation when S'Hits are at zero, on All-Star level.

[TripleThreat1973]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

But deep shots to the gaps that aren't caught?

Between the fielders, or over their heads?

I've hit doubles down the lines, in the gaps ... just not over an OF playing normal depth, straight up. On those they Rickey Henderson (jog) back to the track and nonchalantly put a glove up and catch it at the track as if it were a can of corn, ho hum, event.

IMO, what is happening is posters are skimming through the information and interpreting "unable to hit over an OF's head" as meaning "there's no doubles in this game".

Obviously there are doubles, we're talking about the lack of a specific kind of hit ... one that is rather common (as far as X-Base hits go) in MLB.

[jim416]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

I only experience that when Solid Hits are set to zero. When I put it at 2 (what I play with), I get nailed when I miss spots. Using the White Sox, on All-Star level.

Again, I was only commenting on the situation when S'Hits are at zero, on All-Star level.

Well, put the game on VET and then adjust.

And when you say you get nailed when you miss spots pitching. You know you can strike guys out with pitches that aren't even in the strike zone, right?

Anyway, everyone has made their point.

[jmik58]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Well, sorry, I was answering another poster. You've made your point about alignment.
Sliders do effect outcome.

But deep shots to the gaps that aren't caught? They're in the game. I'm not getting this, really. You want different alignment, okay, but there are "workarounds" if a slider is a workaround. That's what they're there for. But, you've made your point about alignment.

Nothing I said was directly related to you so don't take it that way. But to address your statement, I don't believe that all deep shots to the gap are caught.

I'm not talking about any one specific kind of hit that can be categorized or explained or "defined." I'm saying that there are hits where you know it should have landed in but was caught. This doesn't apply to frozen ropes in the gap whether shallow or deep. I'm talking more along the lines of a ball that is hid very hard but spends a few seconds in the air. It's one of those things where you have more of a feel for it. After the hit and subsequent catch you say to yourself, "No way that guy should have gotten to that."

Regarding sliders... I don't understand why we have to use sliders to compensate for misalignment. Alignment should be accurate, and then you use sliders to make adjustments from there. If a correct alignment causes too many doubles, then we move the sliders to help the fielder speed or the hitting.

But I get your point, for the time being we can work around this somewhat by using sliders. But as many have stated already, the sliders don't do enough. So logically it's fair to ask or hope that this is something that is corrected in next year's game.

Between the fielders, or over their heads?

I've hit doubles down the lines, in the gaps ... just not over an OF playing normal depth, straight up. On those they Rickey Henderson (jog) back to the track and nonchalantly put a glove up and catch it at the track as if it were a can of corn, ho hum, event.

IMO, what is happening is posters are skimming through the information and interpreting "unable to hit over an OF's head" as meaning "there's no doubles in this game".

Obviously there are doubles, we're talking about the lack of a specific kind of hit ... one that is rather common (as far as X-Base hits go) in MLB.

Exactly. It's about certain kinds of hits that should not be caught, and would only be caught on occasion by the most exceptional outfielders if they were lined up in the proper position.

From the sounds of things, people are seeing the occasional hit land in for a hit or over the head of a fielder for a hit. In reality, it should be the other way around. We should be seeing those same hits being caught occasionally.

[TripleThreat1973]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Well, put the game on VET and then adjust.

And when you say you get nailed when you miss spots pitching. You know you can strike guys out with pitches that aren't even in the strike zone, right?

Anyway, everyone has made their point.

When I say "I get nailed when I miss my spots" I say that as it being a good thing ... realistic. I work on the same thing with my HS pitchers ... "If you miss your spot, miss off the plate". Not sure why you would interpret as me complaining that I get drilled when I leave balls over the plate.

All things equal, when I play with solid hits at 2, I get a very balanced game, challenging, and realistic. When solid hits are at zero (everything else remaining the same), it's like playing in the dead ball era (for me, both pitching and at the plate) .... singles and the occassional homer. So, I just play with Solid Hits at 2.

The amount of doubles and K's I experience per game, both teams are very close to MLB averages.

This discussion is about a very specific type of contact to a very specific location on the field. Not about total amount of doubles or anything else.

[jim416]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

This discussion is about a very specific type of contact to a very specific location on the field. Not about total amount of doubles or anything else.

No, you said this....among other things.

But, on MLB10, Jack Cust and Jason Kubel will play similarly to Ichiro and Gutierrez in terms of the balls they get to. I have Pierre in LF and TCQ in RF, and they both get to the same balls. MOF, in 35 games, I haven't had any ball that stayed in the park NOT be caught by TCQ.

I see a noticeable difference in Dunn tracking down a ball/and not (and you aren't talking about over the head above) compared to Pierre. So, and I'm just quoting you, Quentin catches everything hit to right field in the air? That's what you're saying.

Okay, if that's it, but I dunno. I've got a different game, I guess. If that's what you're seeing when you play, cool. But this forum would be on fire if this were the case. If you exaggerated to prove a point...

[ParisB]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

I'm just not seeing it. There's a noticeable difference between a Dunn and an Elsburry/Ichiro type players.

I'm not even talking about simply doubles as a statistic, but just the "feel" of the gameplay with the outfielders. Is it perfect? No, but it plays damn near close to it, especially with Fielder Speed 0 and Reaction at 10 and Solid Hits at 0.

I see loopers drop in front of slow fielders, while the fast guys can snare them. I also see fly balls hit over the heads of fielders too (which is rare in real life anyway, unless it's over CF).

There's really no instance where I thought to myself "wow no way he should have caught that"...

Now as I said, I understand the alignments aren't exactly realistic, but in terms of gameplay it doesn't seem to affect me the same way you guys are saying.

The main problems are in fact fielders are too fast, and hits in general are hit too hard but slider tweaks help a lot.

But as I said, I see plenty of variety. I see outfielders misplay fly balls, hit over their heads or whatever.

I can upload videos and record instances where I see it. Right now I have a video of Elsburry not being able to catch up to a gapper. The exact same hit, an Adam Dunn wouldn't have even came close to catching it like Jacoby did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22b-kurSL90

[jmik58]

Re: Fixing God-like Outfielder Ability

Of course we're all going to have slightly different experiences. I think we all can agree on that.

I don't think it's necessarily my goal to convince everyone that fielders need to be moved. I see what appears to be something that needs to be adjusted for next year's game. If others see the same thing, then this is the place to talk about it.

If others don't see it, this is also the place to explain that.

Accepting that it's very rare there is an issue that affects everyone the same, I think it's enough of an issue to enough people that this should at least be looked at by the devs.

Right now it's as if some of us are at a bit of an impasse over realism of results versus overall realism.

It could be posed this way... Would you rather have A.) or B.) ?

A.) The fielders are misaligned but we can find ways to satisfy the hit variety and possibly increase the doubles over fielders' heads and deep gap fly ball doubles.

B.) The fielders are aligned correctly as they would be in real life, and you get the correct variety of hits, including doubles over outfielders' heads and deep gap fly balls, etc.

I would call A.) an example of realism results. B.) would be overall realism

"A" focuses on the result while "B" has more to do with the overall picture.

"A" can work for some, and for others it's not enough. But if you could have "B", or overall realism, wouldn't you want it?

And that's the bigger point here I think. If SCEA can fix something like fielder positioning, why not have it!?