SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

[ChaseB]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

You use Barton, I use Nick Johnson as my basis.

I think it is a given that power guys will draw more walks. We know why they do. But guys like Barton and Nick Johnson do not scare pitchers with the homerun. They just have amazing eyes.

I think that's more a result of them taking the pitches on the corner then because pitchers are throwing around them.

That's why I disagree with hitter's eye. It doesn't say anything about location. It just says: Here's a fastball.

I'm for the no swing because it allows those guys that take corner balls to hold up like they would. I'm not sure why you say it has to be incorporated for the human pitcher as well. The CPU hitter already knows not to swing at corner balls and knows this most especially if the hitter has a great eye.

I don't think the no swing force mechanic would be set if you get a pitch over the plate. I'm meaning only for pitches that are balls. Those pitches that you hate yourself for swinging at after the fact because you knew it was a ball but you somehow still pressed the swing button anyway.

Hey, I just prefer to use a player who actually plays baseball in Barton, rather than Mr. Glass.

And don't misunderstand what I said about hitter's eye. When I'm talking about hitter's eye, I don't actually mean it as an in-game mechanic, rather just the user's own actual eyes as he plays the game in his gaming dungeon.

I say the throwing "intentional" balls has to be incorporated for human pitchers because otherwise why else would a user consistently walk someone like Barton or Johnson? It would only work if the AI and user both walk those particular guys that get on base a lot.

But even beyond that, if it comes to taking control out of the user's hands, which inevitably is what happens if the game check swings for you even though you took a full swing, then I think that's not a proper solution. Losing control in a video game is probably never going to be the best solution.

A guy like Vlad Guerrero feeds off bad balls, so does Pablo Sandoval. But the past iterations of this game has no sympathy for people who even swing at corner pitches, let alone off the plate. You end up tapping out nearly every time. There definitely needs to be a wider range of what you can put in play, I'm just saying. And hey, some players are better at that than others. If there was a "bad ball" attribute, that would help tremendously (it should basically redistribute the discrepancy between how you hit good pitches versus bad pitches, all against the player's ratings themselves).

Yeah I think this is another interesting element, but I do think it's a way more unique attribute than someone who takes a lot of pitches.

[CMH]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

All right, Blzer, you're gonna need to show me a visual demonstration because I'm clueless as to what you mean by individual strike zones that tempt someone to swing when strike zone is off.

And Chase (and Blzer too here), I completely understand why no one would want to remove control from the User.

I just don't see how outside of visual representation there would be a way to get patient hitters to behave more patient. If Users control every hitter the same then unless you take control away, you'll never achieve the right balance of patience.

That's the obvious problem with video games mimicking real life. We want control but our control eliminates realism.

[Speedy]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

I understand your point Blzr but it would be honestly weird to see a visual (graphical) strike zone that is 4 inches outside/below/above the normal zone. Regardless, there certainly needs to be a noticeable difference between playing with a hacker and a walker which the current hitting system does not distinguish other than sim results and the ability to make "better" contact.

A nice fix, in my perspective, would be an actual rating rather than numbers -- all based on a full season. If a player would average 100 BBs, 150 Ks, .450 OBP etc. then those ratings could be displayed...injuries/durability/coaching would have a factor in whether those ratings would play out. But hey, that's for another thread.

It seems that with the mindset of keeping The Show realistic, graphic displays or making the ball bigger/smaller/colorful isn't the best choice to which YP is stating -- I agree. Hitter patience, to a degree, will always be determined by how patient the user is...however I still believe that strikes vs. balls should be more discernable with players that get high numbers of BBs. I just don't have the creativity to suggest what revolutionize baseball gaming.

Spoiler

I love the SCEA forum sometimes...really mature discussions without flaming/trolling.

[ryan36]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

I feel the new "true zone" PCI hitting may address this. Say a hitter with better eyes can get his cursor out of the zone faster...isn't that like having quick eyes/hands? For those aggresive style hitter?

[Blzer]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

I feel the new "true zone" PCI hitting may address this. Say a hitter with better eyes can get his cursor out of the zone faster...isn't that like having quick eyes/hands? For those aggresive style hitter?

Maybe, but it would be more difficult to be precise with it. That's why I never liked that it's a radial kind of cursor (that re-centers after letting go of the stick), it's pretty tough to get right onto the pitch location especially when it's overly sensitive.

[Blzer]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

Oh and remember Speedy, I also suggested that there are different camera angles per hitter based on a lot of numbers, including their ability to perceive/distinguish balls from strikes and how they are versus lefties/righties.

[Speedy]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

Camera angles? Which would change according to the batter/ratings?

[AtlBraves09]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

maybe if it could give a visual cue some how to the user that the ball is going to begin out of the zone. Maybe flash the side of the strike zone a color or something like that. Somethink like 2k does that draws the user's attention to that point of the zone. The user would still have the ability to swing but they would be more focused on the zone and able to lay off of a bad pitch. Especially the head slappers way out of the zone. Hitters that are less patient would not have this cue nearly as much.

[Blzer]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

Camera angles? Which would change according to the batter/ratings?

Well it's not just angles per se, but yeah maybe a little offset if the handedness is different and they're not very accustomed to it. Like if a lefty specialist comes in against David Ortiz, it will look kind of like how it does in The Show now but then if you're a switch hitter, it will be centered up because he's probably familiar and good with this.

I have some other ideas for the kind of "lens" or depth of field you would have that would help/hurt your ability to see balls and strikes. It's too hard to describe though, I can only just see it. Also some very, very subtle camera effects that wouldn't be too distracting but would help with the difficulty, and I can't stress the amount of subtlety I'm referring to.

[Speedy]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

maybe if it could give a visual cue some how to the user that the ball is going to begin out of the zone. Maybe flash the side of the strike zone a color or something like that. Somethink like 2k does that draws the user's attention to that point of the zone. The user would still have the ability to swing but they would be more focused on the zone and able to lay off of a bad pitch. Especially the head slappers way out of the zone. Hitters that are less patient would not have this cue nearly as much.

CMH (aka YP) mentioned about SCEA going down the 2K path to show better hitters where the pitch is but I don't like that sort of help...it's like guess pitch in a different aspect.

Well it's not just angles per se, but yeah maybe a little offset if the handedness is different and they're not very accustomed to it. Like if a lefty specialist comes in against David Ortiz, it will look kind of like how it does in The Show now but then if you're a switch hitter, it will be centered up because he's probably familiar and good with this.

I'm kindly intrigued by having interesting camera angles for the sidearms/submariners...I would think this would put more importance on matchups (and pitchers for that matter) than K/BB ratio though.

I have some other ideas for the kind of "lens" or depth of field you would have that would help/hurt your ability to see balls and strikes. It's too hard to describe though, I can only just see it. Also some very, very subtle camera effects that wouldn't be too distracting but would help with the difficulty, and I can't stress the amount of subtlety I'm referring to.

Yeh, YP stated that if enhancements could be made for better pitch recognition it would be for the hitting system in general rather than focusing it only for better hitters but I kindly agree with a variance...a better depth of field for better hitters and a more "vague" for worse hitters.

Again though, BBs will probably ultimately be up to how patient the user is which is why YP is suggesting the auto-hit stuff. Having said, it's still difficult to discern a ball from a strike sometimes and being able to realize if a pitch is a fastball/curve/slider/2-seamer would greatly help users working to get BBs.

Scenario #1 w/good eye: I recognize the "dot" in the pitch, know this pitcher has a "downer" 12-6 breaking ball and that the pitch is already pretty low...I'm going to lay off with the belief it will be a ball.

Scenario #1/bad eye: I see a pitch at my waste, know this pitcher has a 95-96 mph fastball I need to get ahead of so I swing...for a strike/miss since it was a curve and couldn't "see" it was a breaking ball.

I really believe that is the way to go.

[CMH]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

I'm warming up to the idea of a focal lens adjustment. I can see that working if the idea is to have a hitter recognize what pitch is coming without resorting to balls changing colors or a word popping up saying: "Curveball!"

I'm not 100% sure it would help people remain patient, but it's a nice idea.

My opinion is patience is not about whether it's a fastball or curveball, but recognizing what's a ball and a strike.

Whatever ends up working sometime in the future will have to ensure that it goes beyond power hitters as we already know there are quite a few guys in the league with great eyes and little power.

[Speedy]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

No, I agree...BBs is mainly about patience and how much the user will work to get a BB but if the user was given "more" of an opportunity to get BBs such as being able to understand pitch and location it would make hitting more enjoyable. Simply put, I really would love to and think SCEA could realistically improve pitch recognition as it would help both the hitter and enhance what is already known as a beautifully graphic game even further.

I'd really love Russell's input on this.

[AtlBraves09]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

No, I agree...BBs is mainly about patience and how much the user will work to get a BB but if the user was given "more" of an opportunity to get BBs such as being able to understand pitch and location it would make hitting more enjoyable. Simply put, I really would love to and think SCEA could realistically improve pitch recognition as it would help both the hitter and enhance what is already known as a beautifully graphic game even further.

I'd really love Russell's input on this.

I suppose you guys would be against some kind of recticle appearing in the strike zone when the pitcher releases the ball. This recticle would show where the ball is starting (inside or outside of the zone) it could also simulate the spin on the ball. Maybe it would disappear when the user swung the bat, or it could appear later for hitters who dont have very much patience.

[CMH]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

I suppose you guys would be against some kind of recticle appearing in the strike zone when the pitcher releases the ball. This recticle would show where the ball is starting (inside or outside of the zone) it could also simulate the spin on the ball. Maybe it would disappear when the user swung the bat, or it could appear later for hitters who dont have very much patience.

If we're going with something visual that flashes up then I can see something like this working.

But, I think many of the hardcore guys want to do away with as many visual cues as possible. I already hate that I'm shown that X=Fastball, O=Slider, etc. Apparently, we'll be able to get rid of HUDs on-screen in 11. If so, anything visual will be gone completely. And I'm a Classic pitcher guy so I never deal with the pitching meter.

I'm really beginning to like the idea of doing something to the baseball that doesn't look cartoonish (so no colors or slow-downs). Something that will allow you to read the seams clearer and identify pitch type.

As for reading balls and strikes, I'll never give up on the automatic no-swing option, but I definitely understand why it's not a favorite.

Anyway, back to the point. It might have to be something visual that is patience ratings based. Whether it's the 2K10 system of flashing the corner of the strike zone, or a baseball sized reticule that flashes quickly to draw attention to the spot of the zone the ball is headed, I'm assuming there is no better solution.

[Blzer]

Re: SCEA needs to find a way to mimic hitters with patience/good eyes

If we're going with something visual that flashes up then I can see something like this working.

But, I think many of the hardcore guys want to do away with as many visual cues as possible. I already hate that I'm shown that X=Fastball, O=Slider, etc. Apparently, we'll be able to get rid of HUDs on-screen in 11. If so, anything visual will be gone completely. And I'm a Classic pitcher guy so I never deal with the pitching meter.

As for this, I've always had an idea in mind on a pitch grips feature using the left stick to determine finger placement, but it still involves a visual on the side that shows what grip your pitcher is going into. The snap would have to follow with the correct right-stick output.

Anyway, back to the point. It might have to be something visual that is patience ratings based. Whether it's the 2K10 system of flashing the corner of the strike zone, or a baseball sized reticule that flashes quickly to draw attention to the spot of the zone the ball is headed, I'm assuming there is no better solution.

Well I guess before we come up with a solution, first we need a question. So what is the question? Is it...

"How can we make a system that's beneficial for players who take a lot of pitches?"

Or is it...

"How can we make a system that gives the disadvantage for players who swing at a lot of pitches?"

In other words, which side are we fighting for? What is the standard now, and how are we trying to alter it? Are we saying that we are already patient with everybody or are we already impatient with everybody? Because I don't want to give the patient players too much of an edge; I'd rather find a way that would make it harder on us for those players who don't see more balls out of the strike zone.