first pitch meatballs....bug?

[ckarlic]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

Man..wish I would have avoided this thread. I didn't notice this until today after reading this thread. I started a postseason with the Yankees..same bracket as last year..all star default across the board and did see a ton of first pitch fastballs down the middle. I never paid attention to it until I read this thread. I was able to rattle off 14 hits but only scored 5 runs to beat the O's 5-1. I'm going to try to play on HOF to see what happens. Game is still great and will live with it if I have too.

[jmik58]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

First off, I don't agree with attacking anyone involved with making the game period. They've done an amazing job and deserve respect for many reasons. Moving on...

I did a rough "test" tonight and I do see some trends but I'll throw out the raw data for anyone who wants it.

First off, I'm only testing RTTS -- nothing else. I turned the difficulty up to Legend and tried bumping sliders up/down/& default for CPU pitchers -- nothing made a difference that I saw.

I tracked 22 consecutive at-bats in RTTS. I tracked the first pitch only. I recorded the pitch type, ball or strike, and location.

Regarding the pitch type: 20 of 22 pitches were the pitcher's #1 (fastballs in all instances). The other two instances were the #2 (sliders), one of which accounted for one of the first-pitch "balls".

Regarding Strike vs Ball: 19 of 22 pitches were Strikes.

Regarding pitch location: only 3 were in the center square ("meat balls").

So from my observations (both subjective and objective) I would conclude a few loose things.

There is not a "meat ball" issue for RTTS, however, there appears to be a strike frequency issue of mass proportions. At best, I should be seeing around 60% first-pitch strikes, not over 90%.

The choice of fastball seems imbalanced, but it's hard to say considering my RTTS player is so poorly rated (49). If I was pitching and facing someone that "bad" I would just groove my #1 to start assuming they can't hit it. I'm not looking to get into a pitch strategy debate, but I believe #2 and subsequent pitches should be reserved for later at-bats and instances where a talented hitter could punish the pitcher. There is no reason for the pitchers to fear my RTTS player.

I'm curious to see if anything changes as my player improves AND as he moves up to AAA. When his ratings improve, will he be pitched to differently? As he faces more talented pitchers, will their approach change?

Hopefully good answers await.

[nomo17k]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

I think the one bug we can all agree about is that the Pitch Analysis Screen is not very good at counting.

12 first-pitches after 10 batters?

I sometime find what seem to be bugs, but you should also be careful in looking at analysis screens when you ever sim part of the game. The sin engine only keeps track of the pitch that results in some sort of play, so when you are filtering via first pitch, you'd only see them when something happened on first-pitches. That's why sometimes pitches look like that they appear from nowhere; it's probably from simmed portion of the game.

[BlueSkies7776]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

Man..wish I would have avoided this thread. I didn't notice this until today after reading this thread. I started a postseason with the Yankees..same bracket as last year..all star default across the board and did see a ton of first pitch fastballs down the middle. I never paid attention to it until I read this thread. I was able to rattle off 14 hits but only scored 5 runs to beat the O's 5-1. I'm going to try to play on HOF to see what happens. Game is still great and will live with it if I have too.

I hate the internet sometimes. If I didn't see this thread I'm almost positive I would have never noticed the problem. But it could also be placebo effect. You're thinking about the problem being there now, so maybe now it seems like a bigger problem than it really is.

[nomo17k]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

...

The choice of fastball seems imbalanced, but it's hard to say considering my RTTS player is so poorly rated (49). If I was pitching and facing someone that "bad" I would just groove my #1 to start assuming they can't hit it. I'm not looking to get into a pitch strategy debate, but I believe #2 and subsequent pitches should be reserved for later at-bats and instances where a talented hitter could punish the pitcher. There is no reason for the pitchers to fear my RTTS player.

I'm curious to see if anything changes as my player improves AND as he moves up to AAA. When his ratings improve, will he be pitched to differently? As he faces more talented pitchers, will their approach change?

Hopefully good answers await.

Your player's quality definitely affects how CPU pitches to you (e.g., power hitter would be pitched around more). This is another reason why we really should stop discussing RTTS and other modes at the same time.

AI used in the game should be similar, whether you play against it in RTTS or other gameplay modes... but it will pitch differently to different types of hitters so you'd better eliminate that variable.

[nomo17k]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

I would also add that if we were to weigh strike % in certain situation, first pitch for example, we should really also compare that against your overall strike % as well.

Hanging around in the forum, I often see people showing game results with overall strike % between 70 - 80% (while the stats remain roughly *sim*). IRL, that's not very realistic, but since most users are often not as disciplined as MLB players, the game is probably tuned to play sim even with impatient user hitters.

That's partly why the game overall is tuned to be slightly more strike happy than MLB. If you follow CPU vs. CPU games, walks have been down (about 0.5 - 1.0 per game per team). It turns out this is actually a design decision to make impatient hitters happy.

So that's another factor here.

If your overall strike % is 80% for example and still hit mediocre, there's no reason for CPU to pitch around you... which may results in first pitch strike % near 80%. So this number also need to be interpreted in relation to the overall quality of hitters playing in the game.

[js3512]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

First off, I don't agree with attacking anyone involved with making the game period. They've done an amazing job and deserve respect for many reasons. Moving on...

I did a rough "test" tonight and I do see some trends but I'll throw out the raw data for anyone who wants it.

First off, I'm only testing RTTS -- nothing else. I turned the difficulty up to Legend and tried bumping sliders up/down/& default for CPU pitchers -- nothing made a difference that I saw.

I tracked 22 consecutive at-bats in RTTS. I tracked the first pitch only. I recorded the pitch type, ball or strike, and location.

Regarding the pitch type: 20 of 22 pitches were the pitcher's #1 (fastballs in all instances). The other two instances were the #2 (sliders), one of which accounted for one of the first-pitch "balls".

Regarding Strike vs Ball: 19 of 22 pitches were Strikes.

Regarding pitch location: only 3 were in the center square ("meat balls").

So from my observations (both subjective and objective) I would conclude a few loose things.

There is not a "meat ball" issue for RTTS, however, there appears to be a strike frequency issue of mass proportions. At best, I should be seeing around 60% first-pitch strikes, not over 90%.

The choice of fastball seems imbalanced, but it's hard to say considering my RTTS player is so poorly rated (49). If I was pitching and facing someone that "bad" I would just groove my #1 to start assuming they can't hit it. I'm not looking to get into a pitch strategy debate, but I believe #2 and subsequent pitches should be reserved for later at-bats and instances where a talented hitter could punish the pitcher. There is no reason for the pitchers to fear my RTTS player.

I'm curious to see if anything changes as my player improves AND as he moves up to AAA. When his ratings improve, will he be pitched to differently? As he faces more talented pitchers, will their approach change?

Hopefully good answers await.

To go along with what you were saying about fastballs. We have to remember that in RTTS we're starting out basically as nobodies and when a pitcher faces a rookie or someone just called up to AA or AAA the pitcher's always gonna challenge the new guy with their fastball. One thing I noticed last night was that I faced a pitcher in my RTTS who I had faced already in a previous game and took his fastball deep. This time around though I saw nothing but junk. Everything on the edges, not a single fastball in the zone and nothing good to hit. Ended up going 0-3 against him with two weak groundouts and a strikeout looking on a pitch that I still think should have been called a ball.

[bobtrain]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

There is not a "meat ball" issue for RTTS, however, there appears to be a strike frequency issue of mass proportions. At best, I should be seeing around 60% first-pitch strikes, not over 90%.

The choice of fastball seems imbalanced, but it's hard to say considering my RTTS player is so poorly rated (49). If I was pitching and facing someone that "bad" I would just groove my #1 to start assuming they can't hit it. I'm not looking to get into a pitch strategy debate, but I believe #2 and subsequent pitches should be reserved for later at-bats and instances where a talented hitter could punish the pitcher. There is no reason for the pitchers to fear my RTTS player.

I'm curious to see if anything changes as my player improves AND as he moves up to AAA. When his ratings improve, will he be pitched to differently? As he faces more talented pitchers, will their approach change?

Hopefully good answers await.

Regarding first paragraph: That was my issue. It wasn't "meatballs" but the frequency of first pitch strikes.

Regarding the AI throwing strikes right down the middle because your player is poorly rated. Ok, I get that. However, what if your poorly rated player starts hitting .400+, as are many, then wouldn't the AI say that's not working and change it, as in real life?

[nomo17k]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

AI only adapts its strategy to how you play within a game. Performance in previous games is totally forgotten....

[bobtrain]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

AI only adapts its strategy to how you play within a game. Performance in previous games is totally forgotten....

Is that a console memory issue? It would be nice in next gen to get past pitcher/batter analysis so you can see your splits vs. previous hitters/pitchers.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

Wow.

I posted a viable test on this I think like 7 pages ago.

Look, I am not going to judge how any of you play or watch this game. It is not my place. But if anyone here thinks there is a programmed pitching logic issue, it HAS to be tested using CPU vs. CPU games.

This would remove nearly 20 pages of the discussion here. Difficulty level talk, mode talk, slider talk, ratings talk, "should he swing or should he take" talk, etc......

I'm working almost 60 hours a week now, so please don't make me do this myself. LOL! I promise it won't hurt. It'll take probably 220 pitches. Max.

CPU vs. CPU. Any game mode. Default sliders.

Choose two MLB teams. Use the number one starters.

Write down or record the result of the first pitch of the inning. Fast forward to the next half inning. Repeat until the game is over.

Go into game two. Use the number two starters.

Write down and record the result of the first pitch of the inning. Fast forward to the next half inning. Repeat until the game is over.

Go into game three. Use the number three starters. Etc.

That is it.

It's the only reliable way to isolate this issue (if in fact their is one). Is anyone willing to do this and report back?

[dkrause1971]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

Wow.

I posted a viable test on this I think like 7 pages ago.

Look, I am not going to judge how any of you play or watch this game. It is not my place. But if anyone here thinks there is a programmed pitching logic issue, it HAS to be test using CPU vs. CPU games.

This would remove nearly 20 pages of the discussion here. Difficulty level talk, mode talk, slider talk, ratings talk, "should he swing or should he take" talk, etc......

I'm working almost 60 hours a week now, so please don't make me do this myself. LOL! I promise it won't hurt. It'll take probably 220 pitches. Max.

CPU vs. CPU. Any game mode. Default sliders.

Choose two MLB teams. Use the number one starters.

Write down or record the result of the first pitch of the inning. Fast forward to the next half inning. Repeat until the game is over.

Go into game two. Use the number two starters.

Write down and record the result of the first pitch of the inning. Fast forward to the next half inning. Repeat until the game is over.

Go into game three. Use the number three starters. Etc.

That is it.

It's the only reliable way to isolate this issue (if in fact their is one). Is anyone willing to do this and report back?

Did a cpu vs cpu game. Had the same issues. Posted in the thread somewhere.

[BlueSkies7776]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

Wow.

I posted a viable test on this I think like 7 pages ago.

Look, I am not going to judge how any of you play or watch this game. It is not my place. But if anyone here thinks there is a programmed pitching logic issue, it HAS to be tested using CPU vs. CPU games.

This would remove nearly 20 pages of the discussion here. Difficulty level talk, mode talk, slider talk, ratings talk, "should he swing or should he take" talk, etc......

I'm working almost 60 hours a week now, so please don't make me do this myself. LOL! I promise it won't hurt. It'll take probably 220 pitches. Max.

CPU vs. CPU. Any game mode. Default sliders.

Choose two MLB teams. Use the number one starters.

Write down or record the result of the first pitch of the inning. Fast forward to the next half inning. Repeat until the game is over.

Go into game two. Use the number two starters.

Write down and record the result of the first pitch of the inning. Fast forward to the next half inning. Repeat until the game is over.

Go into game three. Use the number three starters. Etc.

That is it.

It's the only reliable way to isolate this issue (if in fact their is one). Is anyone willing to do this and report back?

I'll do it, but what do you mean by fast forward? Is there a fast forward option or do I have to watch the entire game and take note of the first pitch of every half inning?

[jmik58]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

I'll do it, but what do you mean by fast forward? Is there a fast forward option or do I have to watch the entire game and take note of the first pitch of every half inning?

Pause the game and choose "fast forward" for 1/2 inning.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: first pitch meatballs....bug?

Did a cpu vs cpu game. Had the same issues. Posted in the thread somewhere.

If you're really on to something here, you should do more. If you're Nomo or me, do WAY more. LOL( I think 5-10 games would be a decent start.)! That way, it can't be debated. It can be discussed. I've read your posts and love your enthusiasm. It's the only way to prove the issue and direct the discussion in the path that we all wish it will take.

IF there is an issue here, I'd like it fixed too. But it needs to be proven, and the current testing doesn't remove the variables enough.