Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

[cardinalbird5]

For example, your base fastball is 98. You throw high in the zone and it hits 100 and you throw low it hits 96.

This should be based on meter alone. This can be especially annoying online because it encourages users to throw nothing but high and inside pitches. A team like the Cardinals never really throw high fastballs (besides maybe Rosenthal and he still tries to keep the ball down). But I shouldn't have to rely on throwing it high just to add speed and feel like it is the only way I can get the ball past someone.

Also curveballs not being able to break high in the zone is unrealistic too. There are a lot of curveballs called high in the zone that have good break IRL, but this game treats them all as hanging curveballs that have no break to them.

Just a mini rant and I wish they'd change this. Anyone agree?

[kehlis]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

I don't, its true in real life as well.

The real life Cardinal don't throw many high fastballs because they know that regardless of velocity, consistently throwing high fastballs will get you crushed.

The pitcher is elevated on the mound, the ball reaches its destination quicker the the higher the pitch.

[cardinalbird5]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

I respect the argument, but I don't believe it. Even if that is true, it shouldn't be a +-3.5 variance. Also what about submariners and 3 quarter delivery guys??

Cards have plenty of guys who can throw heat btw....just ever since they've had Duncan as their pitching coach they've never utilized the high fastball out of the zone (not in the zone). If any team threw only high in the zone they'd get crushed, but on this game it is the go to pitch.

http://pitchingprofessor.com/article_keep_the_pitch_low.html

"F THERE IS ANYTHING I AM certain about in pitching, it is that the farther up in the game you go, the more successful you can be by keeping your pitches low. There will be exceptions, of course. The classic example will be the power pitchers (like Nolan Ryan) who can retain their velocity and continue pitching upstairs as they age. Most pitchers will achieve greater success by keeping the ball in the lower part or even just out of the strike zone. Several of the reasons for this are:

Lower is faster. Most low fastballs are 1-2 mph faster than the pitcher's high fastball cousins. A radar gun will quickly prove this.
The hitter can see only the top half of the ball. On a high pitch, the batter will see the whole ball.
The low ball is more likely to be hit on the ground and less likely to be hit for distance.
The action on the ball (veer and sink) is heightened when the pitch is low.
Gravity adds to both the velocity and movement of the pitch.
Double plays (the essence of defensive efficiency) are the precious gifts of the low-ball pitcher."

[UK0wnag3]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the term "effective velocity"?

Trevor Bauer talks about it a lot.

[kehlis]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

You read what I wrote but didn't get my point.

I'm not arguing effectiveness, I pitched in college, I know why it behooves pitchers to keep it low in the zone.

And yes, this obviously doesn't apply to sidearm pitchers or submariners nor have I ever seen this reflected in the game for them.


My point was a simple matter of physics.

The ball for an overhand pitcher is released higher than the strike zone, therefore it is coming into the plate at a downward angle. Agree?

Because it is traveling at a downward angle, the higher the pitch, the sooner it arrived at the plate as it had less time to travel.

This is why you will continually see catchers call for a high fastball as a two strike strikeout pitch. It tends to change the eye level for the batter (because most pitchers tend to work down in the zone) and it tends to be the fastest fastball for any pitcher.


Just go back and watch the ninth inning of this game with that kid you guys put in. He trended around 95 but was pretty consistently faster up in the zone than when he pitched down.



NOW, if you want to argue that the variance is too much, you won't get an argument from me. I haven't studied the deviance in the game and really have no desire to.

[cardinalbird5]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

I got your "point". I just don't agree with it. There is a difference.

Based on the physics..yeah that should be true. I don't know if it necessarily is until I see some proof. If you simply looked at pitch charts, pitchers would always be faster higher in the zone because pitchers look to throw them harder. That doesn't mean they get there faster with the same amount of effort.

As you posted that, Rosenthal just tied someone up with a 99 mph fastball down and in, lol.

Regardless....it just annoys me I can't blow a fastball by someone low and inside. I am not looking to start a physics argument. Play online and you'll see what I mean. Pitches low tend to crushed and high pitches get you outs, generally. I don't know so much about the CPU AI either, but it seemed like hardly got tied up with low heat as well.

Not a gamebreaker...but something that always annoyed me. That and the curves not breaking at all when throw high in the zone when in reality pitchers like Wayno, Zito, Carp, Lilly, etc. get a lot of high curveballs (that break the same) get called for strikes. I don't know about the physics on that one.

[kehlis]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

Based on the physics..yeah that should be true. I don't know if it necessarily is until I see some proof. If you simply looked at pitch charts, pitchers would always be faster higher in the zone because pitchers look to throw them harder. That doesn't mean they get there faster with the same amount of effort.

As you posted that, Rosenthal just tied someone up with a 99 mph fastball down and in, lol.

Regardless....it just annoys me I can't blow a fastball by someone low and inside. I am not looking to start a physics argument. Play online and you'll see what I mean. Pitches low tend to crushed and high pitches get you outs, generally. I don't know so much about the CPU AI either, but it seemed like hardly got tied up with low heat as well.

My intent wasn't to start an argument my friend.

Have a good evening, lets go Bucs!

[Bobhead]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

I don't, its true in real life as well.

The real life Cardinal don't throw many high fastballs because they know that regardless of velocity, consistently throwing high fastballs will get you crushed.

The pitcher is elevated on the mound, the ball reaches its destination quicker the the higher the pitch.

Yes but that doesn't quite mean a difference in velocity.

Because of the elevation, the high pitch reaches its destination quicker because the distance is literally shorter.

Even if the pitch is traveling at exactly the same speed, there is a noticeable distance in the elapsed time of travel.

Think of the Pythagorean Theorem. The pitcher represents the point opposite the base. The catcher himself is the base of the triangle. (The base is perpendicular to the ground). A high pitch would be the shorter line, perpendicular to the base. A low pitch would be the diagonal, longer line, the hypotenuse... the one you use the formula for.

[stealyerface]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

First of all, are you using Analog pitching whereby you can increase the speed based on your input and effort?

Second of all, balls thrown higher in the zone are typically faster because the pitcher wants them to be.

When you are taught to "climb the ladder", the first pitch is slower than the second, which is slower than the third as you go up the zone.

Why is this? Firstly, especially on college, any 170 pound kid can drop the barrel on a ball low in the zone and send it to the fence. This is why I have argued (since 1987-1991) that college baseball should be played with wooden bats. There is nothing more frustrating than throwing an 0-2 slider down and away to a 5'9" shortstop, and having him lace that ball to the gap, when with wood it would be a ground out to second... but I digress...

If the first pitch low at the knees is a strike at 91mph, and the second is at the belt for 93mph, the natural progression, (and by the way, it is easier to throw the high fastball harder based on spin and how you bend your back) is the last and highest pitch has the most velocity and if it touches 94, that is a +-3mph swing on the same pitch...

Plus, that ball is a LOT harder to catch up with as a batter, as the plane of your swing requires a true front-hand sweep through the zone, versus the balls that are lower can use the weight of the bat to accelerate through the hitting zone to catch up to the fastball. This is why you notice you cannot "blow people away with the fastball low in the zone".

Look at the bomb Chapman gave up to lose the game the other night. There is not a hitter in the league that is going to hit a ball chest high at 103mph. Not going to happen, and no point in arguing. But that same pitch down, where the bat's speed is aided by the downforce of the barrel travelling at a downwards angle, might get hit 500 feet. Same pitch, same speed, but a foot and a half of elevation turns it into an unhittable venture.

Want to see something cool? When you are pitching during a game, keep a close eye on the other team's batter, and his Swing Feedback clues. If you throw something offspeed, and the batter is "late" use the info, and throw the fastball down under his wrists, just below his knees.... You'll start to see batters get blown away with the fastball down.

Pitching is working, and working is hard. My favorite coach ever used to say to me, "Guile and Guise, then one at his eyes".

This meant set the guy up with stuff that makes him think too much, and while he is standing there deciding what he thinks you think he is thinking you will do, put one up in the zone...

Balls thrown up in the zone are faster because the pitcher makes them that way.

~syf

[ill23matic]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

You read what I wrote but didn't get my point.

I'm not arguing effectiveness, I pitched in college, I know why it behooves pitchers to keep it low in the zone.

And yes, this obviously doesn't apply to sidearm pitchers or submariners nor have I ever seen this reflected in the game for them.


My point was a simple matter of physics.

The ball for an overhand pitcher is released higher than the strike zone, therefore it is coming into the plate at a downward angle. Agree?

Because it is traveling at a downward angle, the higher the pitch, the sooner it arrived at the plate as it had less time to travel.

This is why you will continually see catchers call for a high fastball as a two strike strikeout pitch. It tends to change the eye level for the batter (because most pitchers tend to work down in the zone) and it tends to be the fastest fastball for any pitcher.


Just go back and watch the ninth inning of this game with that kid you guys put in. He trended around 95 but was pretty consistently faster up in the zone than when he pitched down.



NOW, if you want to argue that the variance is too much, you won't get an argument from me. I haven't studied the deviance in the game and really have no desire to.

He's talking velocity. 98 is 98 no matter if its at the letters or at the knees. Radar guns don't work by tracking the time it takes the ball to go from release to the catchers mitt. And that's a rather elementary assessment on why to call for the high fastball. You got the changing of the eye level correct, but there are tons of other reasons why a high heater is called, ie hitters more likely to chase when trying to protect w two strikes, chasing because they are worried about a breaking ball, how difficult it is for a hitter to square up a high heater, etc.

And technically the fastest fastball is an inside one because the hitter has to get the bat head out quicker to make contact. If your barrel lags behind it can still make late contact w a ball down the middle or away, whereas the thinnest part of the bat is going to be in the hitting zone on an inside pitch if u don't get your hands through the zone quicker

[cardinalbird5]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

First of all, are you using Analog pitching whereby you can increase the speed based on your input and effort?

Second of all, balls thrown higher in the zone are typically faster because the pitcher wants them to be.

When you are taught to "climb the ladder", the first pitch is slower than the second, which is slower than the third as you go up the zone.

Why is this? Firstly, especially on college, any 170 pound kid can drop the barrel on a ball low in the zone and send it to the fence. This is why I have argued (since 1987-1991) that college baseball should be played with wooden bats. There is nothing more frustrating than throwing an 0-2 slider down and away to a 5'9" shortstop, and having him lace that ball to the gap, when with wood it would be a ground out to second... but I digress...

If the first pitch low at the knees is a strike at 91mph, and the second is at the belt for 93mph, the natural progression, (and by the way, it is easier to throw the high fastball harder based on spin and how you bend your back) is the last and highest pitch has the most velocity and if it touches 94, that is a +-3mph swing on the same pitch...

Plus, that ball is a LOT harder to catch up with as a batter, as the plane of your swing requires a true front-hand sweep through the zone, versus the balls that are lower can use the weight of the bat to accelerate through the hitting zone to catch up to the fastball. This is why you notice you cannot "blow people away with the fastball low in the zone".

Look at the bomb Chapman gave up to lose the game the other night. There is not a hitter in the league that is going to hit a ball chest high at 103mph. Not going to happen, and no point in arguing. But that same pitch down, where the bat's speed is aided by the downforce of the barrel travelling at a downwards angle, might get hit 500 feet. Same pitch, same speed, but a foot and a half of elevation turns it into an unhittable venture.

Want to see something cool? When you are pitching during a game, keep a close eye on the other team's batter, and his Swing Feedback clues. If you throw something offspeed, and the batter is "late" use the info, and throw the fastball down under his wrists, just below his knees.... You'll start to see batters get blown away with the fastball down.

Pitching is working, and working is hard. My favorite coach ever used to say to me, "Guile and Guise, then one at his eyes".

This meant set the guy up with stuff that makes him think too much, and while he is standing there deciding what he thinks you think he is thinking you will do, put one up in the zone...

Balls thrown up in the zone are faster because the pitcher makes them that way.

~syf

I use meter and im not asking for pitching advice. I know why and when pitchers like to use high heat, but the ball shouldn't magically increase in velocity.

And even if the ball did get there faster...that doesn't increase its actual velocity. Chapman has such long arms that he is actually releasing the ball closer to the plate, but this doesn't increase the velocity. It just lowers the reaction time you have.

So in this game high heat adds 2-3 mph and if they throw inside you have even that much less time to react.

Thanks Bob for an actual explanation too.

[ill23matic]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

Lmao. Thanks for quoting that, missed it the first time. Wow

[nomo17k]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

Perhaps the pitch speed should respond accordingly to the "effort" that the pitcher puts into one, rather than the game giving it an automatic boost of +/- 2 mph or so based on the pitch height.

[ML]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

When you try to throw harder and tend to overthrow usually you throw the ball harder but high/up in the zone... That could explain why its harder in the top of the zone because a pitcher is really trying to blow it past the batter and in turn is overthrowing?

[rjackson]

Re: Pitches magically increasing/decreasing in speed due to location is unrealistic.

It has been proven that the amount of time that a batter has to respond does vary by pitch location. From a catcher's perspective and a right-handed pitcher, it looks like this: \

So in this scenario, high and tight to low and away on a right-handed hitter gives the least amount of time to respond.

I accept this as fact. I would agree though that it is overstated in the game. But you do have more time to respond to a pitch high and outside rather than inside in that scenario above.