Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

If your controller vibrates (Dualshock controller), that's max effort. This takes according to the lead programmer of the game, one full second for all pitchers.

Anywhere before vibration is estimated by us.

[Ryan97]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

Sorry guys, I'm an oldtimer and I have a question. How do you know when you are at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, or full? Is it just a guessing thing?

There is no such thing. It is only X or hold X till the controller rumbles. Good effort vs Max effort. No timing is involved to assist accuracy.

[KingV2k3]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

Anybody else finding that default (Vet or AS, in my experience) isn't bringing the desired degree of control / accuracy?

I recall reading in Jim Bouton's "Ball Four" that an average major league pitcher should find that the most accurate he can expect a pitch to land is a 12 inch by 12 inch "box"...

Like, if you aim for the low inside corner on a right handed hitter, that pitch could / should end up anywhere from six inches up or down / left or right...

Tough to explain, but I'm sure y'all get that...

It's about the size of a box on a "Hot / Cold Zone" graphic...

Anyway...

On default, I'm seeing pitches land anywhere from 18 to 24 inches outside of their intended target...

I've tired raising consistency to (6 and then 7), and it helps, but that "12 by 12" box is still kind of "outsized"...

I'm thinking of just raising control to 6 and leaving consistency on default, and hope that nails it...

I have ALL the other sliders set, it's just getting this last combo of HUM pitching sliders tight...

Anyone else agree with Jim Bouton's "12 by 12 Box" theory and how I'm trying to apply it?

thanks!

[Geronimo22]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

Anybody else finding that default (Vet or AS, in my experience) isn't bringing the desired degree of control / accuracy?

I recall reading in Jim Bouton's "Ball Four" that an average major league pitcher should find that the most accurate he can expect a pitch to land is a 12 inch by 12 inch "box"...

Like, if you aim for the low inside corner on a right handed hitter, that pitch could / should end up anywhere from six inches up or down / left or right...

Tough to explain, but I'm sure y'all get that...

It's about the size of a box on a "Hot / Cold Zone" graphic...

Anyway...

On default, I'm seeing pitches land anywhere from 18 to 24 inches outside of their intended target...

I've tired raising consistency to (6 and then 7), and it helps, but that "12 by 12" box is still kind of "outsized"...

I'm thinking of just raising control to 6 and leaving consistency on default, and hope that nails it...

I have ALL the other sliders set, it's just getting this last combo of HUM pitching sliders tight...

Anyone else agree with Jim Bouton's "12 by 12 Box" theory and how I'm trying to apply it?

thanks!

I agree with your statement "On default, I'm seeing pitches land anywhere from 18 to 24 inches outside of their intended target..."

But I'm noticing that some days pitchers are more accurate and some they are less accurate. I'm wondering if other factors are coming into play (hot streaks / cold streaks / pitchers BB rating). Maybe that's the true beauty of classic pitching. Maybe that's why its the most realistic. Watch a pitcher who doesn't have his stuff on MLB.tv with the Pitch FX on and you will see him not being "12x12"

I'm working on some random test franchise games to see if I can learn something.

[KingV2k3]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

I agree with your statement "On default, I'm seeing pitches land anywhere from 18 to 24 inches outside of their intended target..."

But I'm noticing that some days pitchers are more accurate and some they are less accurate. I'm wondering if other factors are coming into play (hot streaks / cold streaks / pitchers BB rating). Maybe that's the true beauty of classic pitching. Maybe that's why its the most realistic. Watch a pitcher who doesn't have his stuff on MLB.tv with the Pitch FX on and you will see him not being "12x12"

I'm working on some random test franchise games to see if I can learn something.

I agree that it could be any combo of the factors you mentioned plus road game starts...

BUT:

I'm seeing that what I'm observing is true of not only the starter, but ALL the pitchers who come in from long to middle relief and on...

The thing that got me thinking was the new (to me) "warmup" interface for all pitchers...

When you have a few to a handful of guys warmup, an no one can hit that "box" without even having a batter up, it's a potential problem...

I look forward to hearing more about your insight and testing...

Franchise mode is the place for it, there's no way to tell exactly how the gameplay varies in various modes...so far anyway...

Interesting...

I'm finding 6/6 doesn't neuter the CPU...but it does limit the frustration of having pitches land 2 feet from their intended destination...

[Cras]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

I am having one heck of a time with pitching this year. Control is hard. I pretty much have to hold it down until my controller rumbles everytime, otherwise, the ball will go all over the place.

Just tapping the button will result in an almost gurantee ball. Unless I aim for the center of the strike zone, which then the pitch may be a ball, or lucky to hit the black.

Breaking pitches, if I tap the button, odds are the thing wont be close, or will hang and get crushed.

To see what is going on, I created a pitcher and maxed out his ratings, and same thing. If I take him and just tap the pitch buttons, he will walk everyone in sight. If I hold down till it rumbles, then he has a shot, but is still probably wilder than one would expect.

In short, it is very hard. I am having a much harder time with pitching than I have in previous years in this game. I like the idea of throwing balls and having to battle at times, and at times loose those battles, but right now, all my pitchers seem to feel the same. They are all garbage. I fall behind everyone, and I can never dominate a hitter, but hitting corners, because if I aim for a corner, he will just sit there and take it, not even sweat, and the thing will go for a ball. When I am hitting, and I see something close, I have a hard time laying off, especially those low and away sliders, or the breaking ball and falls off the table. If someone has a slider set that makes the AI hitters a little more susceptible to being fooled, I am all ears, because right now, they seem to have too good of eyes. When ever I seem to get in a battle with them always fooling pitches off, it is not because they are getting contact with my pitches out of the zone, it is because I am always throwing strikes, and then I finally miss with one, and he watches it go by and take his base.

[Geronimo22]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

I am having one heck of a time with pitching this year. Control is hard. I pretty much have to hold it down until my controller rumbles everytime, otherwise, the ball will go all over the place.

Just tapping the button will result in an almost gurantee ball. Unless I aim for the center of the strike zone, which then the pitch may be a ball, or lucky to hit the black.

Breaking pitches, if I tap the button, odds are the thing wont be close, or will hang and get crushed.

To see what is going on, I created a pitcher and maxed out his ratings, and same thing. If I take him and just tap the pitch buttons, he will walk everyone in sight. If I hold down till it rumbles, then he has a shot, but is still probably wilder than one would expect.

In short, it is very hard. I am having a much harder time with pitching than I have in previous years in this game. I like the idea of throwing balls and having to battle at times, and at times loose those battles, but right now, all my pitchers seem to feel the same. They are all garbage. I fall behind everyone, and I can never dominate a hitter, but hitting corners, because if I aim for a corner, he will just sit there and take it, not even sweat, and the thing will go for a ball. When I am hitting, and I see something close, I have a hard time laying off, especially those low and away sliders, or the breaking ball and falls off the table. If someone has a slider set that makes the AI hitters a little more susceptible to being fooled, I am all ears, because right now, they seem to have too good of eyes. When ever I seem to get in a battle with them always fooling pitches off, it is not because they are getting contact with my pitches out of the zone, it is because I am always throwing strikes, and then I finally miss with one, and he watches it go by and take his base.

Above guys explained the best way to get control on your pitches. It's not pressing it till it rumbles. It's not tapping. It's 1/2 second to a 1/3 second count that produces the best control.

As for pitches that can fool hitters. Ask Ryan above for some pitching strategies. He mentioned them in another thread (forget which one) about throwing different pitches off the same location.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

Cras,

I feel exactly like you do...but only in certain moments.

I've dominated a ton using Classic.

I find light taps to be pretty useless unless the confidence for that pitch is high. Otherwise, it's 1/3 hold, 1/2 hold, 2/3 hold, or hold to vibrate.

I'm on AS Default, by the way.

Generally, I aim for a quadrant rather than the black unless I'm ahead in the count, have high pitch or overall confidence, or am facing a dangerous hitter (or any hitter in a dangerous situation).

My BB's are near 4.0 per, so I'm not saying I've mastered the system yet, but I'm getting better.

It's all about confidence. Don't even consider throwing a low confidence pitch in a necessary strike situation. Take that poor pitch and build it up in low stress scenarios. Use it as a get-me-over pitch but for a first pitch strike against a 7, 8, or 9 hitter.

But again, don't paint unless you have to or the advantage in the count. Try to aim to the area you want, but just off the black into the strikezone. Your pitcher ratings will determine meatball vs. black painting.

[Cras]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

I think you are right with the aiming for a quadrant. I created a guy with max control for everything, and if I try to paint the corner, its a ball. Every time. He will just sit up there walking everyone. Then that tanks his confidence, and then he cannot throw a strike to save his life.

I read somewhere else that there are only two ways to throw in classic. A "normal effort", which is just a press of the button, and a "maximum effort", which is holding down until the controller rumbles. This however I do not believe. A tap is just worthless, the guy will not throw in the zone with that action, it does take something like a 1/2 throw. And it is frustrating to find where that perfect release point is.

I still see an issue where it is a breaking pitch that barely misses, and I mean just miss, and sometimes it is in the zone and it is called a ball, and the hitter just stands there and watches it go for a ball. I still think the CPU hitters are broken. It has always been something taht stood out to me in this game, is that the CPU hitters are too good with knowing what pitch you are throwing and have too good an eye. And it is a slippery slope to start messing about with sliders to give the CPU more holes in their swing, because you run the risk of making them totally inept.

Pitching has always seemed to me to be the weakest part of this game, by far. Hitting felt good before, and now feels better than ever, with the new spin physics, hitting is very very fun in this game. Pitching is just horrible. I almost hate it, and becaue of it I almost hate this game. I like having a dominate pitcher be able to dominate once in a while and strike people out, but it is just so hard to do in this game. I can switch over to pulse pitching, and paint then things get extreme. The pitcher becames waaaay to accurate.

Classic pitching has the right idea. It is ratings based (or so I thought, with all this talk about 1/3, 1/2 button presses, it seems to be quite player based on its success), it generates a good number of balls out of the zone to get realistic pitch counts. But just too darn often I see great pitchers miss their spots by huge amounts and render the guys great breaking and off-speed pitches utterly worthless.

[KingV2k3]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

I think you are right with the aiming for a quadrant. I created a guy with max control for everything, and if I try to paint the corner, its a ball. Every time. He will just sit up there walking everyone. Then that tanks his confidence, and then he cannot throw a strike to save his life.

I read somewhere else that there are only two ways to throw in classic. A "normal effort", which is just a press of the button, and a "maximum effort", which is holding down until the controller rumbles. This however I do not believe. A tap is just worthless, the guy will not throw in the zone with that action, it does take something like a 1/2 throw. And it is frustrating to find where that perfect release point is.

I still see an issue where it is a breaking pitch that barely misses, and I mean just miss, and sometimes it is in the zone and it is called a ball, and the hitter just stands there and watches it go for a ball. I still think the CPU hitters are broken. It has always been something taht stood out to me in this game, is that the CPU hitters are too good with knowing what pitch you are throwing and have too good an eye. And it is a slippery slope to start messing about with sliders to give the CPU more holes in their swing, because you run the risk of making them totally inept.

Pitching has always seemed to me to be the weakest part of this game, by far. Hitting felt good before, and now feels better than ever, with the new spin physics, hitting is very very fun in this game. Pitching is just horrible. I almost hate it, and becaue of it I almost hate this game. I like having a dominate pitcher be able to dominate once in a while and strike people out, but it is just so hard to do in this game. I can switch over to pulse pitching, and paint then things get extreme. The pitcher becames waaaay to accurate.

Classic pitching has the right idea. It is ratings based (or so I thought, with all this talk about 1/3, 1/2 button presses, it seems to be quite player based on its success), it generates a good number of balls out of the zone to get realistic pitch counts. But just too darn often I see great pitchers miss their spots by huge amounts and render the guys great breaking and off-speed pitches utterly worthless.

Bingo!

This year, pitching is so frustrating (compared to the 07-10 versions I played the heck out of) it's crazy...

I went to 6/6 and it FINALLY felt "right" to me, until the inevitable 5th inning meltdown (minimal fatigue, good confidence...just that "third time through the order" boost that seems to happen)...

After that, I put in a decent reliever with good control and he proceeded to "expand" the starters 18 x 18 "box" by about 300 percent...

Ridiculous...

Got him out, put in an even higher rated guy...same result...

I know pitch sequence and the "quirks" the game punishes and falls prey to, etc...

Just haven't seen this wide a variety of control issues using classic in the many years previous...

I'm prob going to just have to get over "slider guilt" and keep jacking up control and consistency until I can get through a whole game without at least a couple of my pitchers suddenly turning into guys who couldn't throw out the first pitch without it landing in the stands...

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

Cras,

Again, I have moments where your post could be mine. But, minus the absolutes.

What difficulty are you on?

I've thrown some serious gems this year. 3 F'ing brilliant starts with CC before he got hurt, a CG SO with Kuroda (who's sucked otherwise), a 3.45ish with Phil Hughes...

And three performances of 9 K's or more with my starter. And I'm still in April.

Yeah, I'm sporting a 4.11 team ERA but my schedule has been tough. I'm averaging over 7 K's per game as a team. My hits allowed are also less than my IP.

I'm on Default AS. Are you on HOF or higher, or did you change any sliders at all?

[Cras]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

Cras,

Again, I have moments where your post could be mine. But, minus the absolutes.

What difficulty are you on?

I've thrown some serious gems this year. 3 F'ing brilliant starts with CC before he got hurt, a CG SO with Kuroda (who's sucked otherwise), a 3.45ish with Phil Hughes...

And three performances of 9 K's or more with my starter. And I'm still in April.

Yeah, I'm sporting a 4.11 team ERA but my schedule has been tough. I'm averaging over 7 K's per game as a team. My hits allowed are also less than my IP.

I'm on Default AS. Are you on HOF or higher, or did you change any sliders at all?

I had thought I was on All-star pitching, but it actually looks like I am on HoF, so that may be the problem right there. I was cranking up the human pitching sliders, I knocked up consistancy a notch to see if it would stop the times when I aim for one corner and the ball ends up going to the opposite corner, like I aim for low and away and the ball ends up hitting up and in, or right over the middle and it gets hit hard.

I am going to follow your lead and go to All-Star and see if that helps me.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

I had thought I was on All-star pitching, but it actually looks like I am on HoF, so that may be the problem right there. I was cranking up the human pitching sliders, I knocked up consistancy a notch to see if it would stop the times when I aim for one corner and the ball ends up going to the opposite corner, like I aim for low and away and the ball ends up hitting up and in, or right over the middle and it gets hit hard.

I am going to follow your lead and go to All-Star and see if that helps me.

LOL!

I think SCEA nailed pitching this year. BB-wise, SO-wise, realism-wise, etc.

Last year, I tried HOF for about 3 games and nearly broke my controller. AS Default is where it's at.

Check out my one month update in the Franchise Progress Thread. I have two games left until April is over so look for it in a few days. Needless to say, I think you'll be impressed.

[KingV2k3]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

I'm beginning to think that it's POSSIBLE that control and consistency were adjusted from earlier iterations to account for the new "signature" interface:

Pulse Pitching

Since that incorporates user control (thereby making pitchers more accurate), the "default" control MAY have been lowered to compensate...

That's the only thing I can think of to explain why "C" control, decently rated middle relievers can't hit the broad side of a barn on 6/6, even during warmups, with no batter in the box...

I could be wrong, but it makes sense that SECA could adjust things to "feature the new feature"...

[Cras]

Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012

There was definately a bit of difference there going back to AS. I was messing about with the ILive and Authentic sim sliders, which are quite a challenge, and they called for HoF pitching.

I still have human pitching control and consistancy at 6-6, not at default yet. Results were better. My dominate pitcher felt dominate, he still was wild at times, gave up a pair of runs on some garbage hits, when I couldnt find the plate, walk a guy, and had to just lob it in to stop throwing balls.

But then regained control. Ended up striking out 8 or so. I think I also need to take into account that my skill with this game is just not as good as some people here. HoF hitting seems quite hard, yet so many people say they get good results. I do know that HoF pitching is way above my head.