I also like to double up on pitches that worked. First pitch curveball on the corner? Let's do another curveball in the same spot (or maybe a little lower).
Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
I also like to double up on pitches that worked. First pitch curveball on the corner? Let's do another curveball in the same spot (or maybe a little lower). -
Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
H&V, sounds like you're describing a "hump day" or "hump inning" kind of thing, and I had some similar experiences and ideas on the issue:
This isn't the exact same thing, but I had a game recently where I was pitching very well with Travis Wood, and into the fifth inning Matt V. or somebody said, "He's pitching well, but without the benefit of a strikeout," which I really hadn't noticed. So I thought, well, that means they've been swinging early, and I've been getting a lot of ground balls. So I just started pushing the edges more (still using catcher's calls, but you just push it closer to the edge of the zone than you would normally), and then I racked up 3 or 4 k's in the next couple of innings. So there, I maybe wouldn't have done anything if the announcer hadn't made me notice, but it gave me an opportunity, with a relatively low pitch count, in the middle of a relatively close game, to switch things up, and keep the hitters off balance. I'm thinking, too, that up to that point the catcher had been calling for lots of low corner fastballs; and about that point I started getting more calls for breaking pitches/movement pitches designed to start in the zone but then go out. Anyway, relevant here is that I was able to take a good start (lots of ground balls, steadily rising confidence) and then shift gears before somebody caught hold of a first pitch fastball, and keep them off balance.
How it applies to your last question, H&V.... I guess I'm saying it's always good to have a notion of not just a "game plan", but a "dynamic game plan", as in, when I'm pitching with this guy, and he starts to get wild in the 4th, what is my best strategy for getting it back? Not that there's a definitive answer, and plans made are often plans scrapped, but.... it just goes to show what a thinking man's game this is, however hot your fastball is. Oh, and yeah, seems like, even with a pitcher who has had some success, there is a "lull" of sorts, where for no good reason those 4 pitch, I'm really trying to throw you a meatball here walks just frustrate you. But you know what? Can't tell you how many times I've been watching my current favorite pitcher (Tommy Hanson) pitch IRL, he'll have 7 ks going into the 4th, not a walk or a 3 ball count all day, and all of a sudden he'll throw 4 straight not even close. BMac goes and talks to him, Tommy wipes the sweat off his brow, and he moves on. Sometimes he gets out of it, sometimes...... well, not. So I'm saying, that's baseball. I think I even remember a time or two when Maddux would just be stubborn and throw four circle changes to the outside corner, miss all four, and everyone in the world would say, "OH my god, the world is about to end, Maddux has lost his control," and then of course the next guy he'd hit that same exact spot 3 times--except this time the ump would call them all strikes. Maddux had a way of making the strike zone come to him. The umpire whisperer. Anyway, waaaaaaaaayyyyyy off topic. long story short, I'm hitting the same kind of "wall" at times, but usually I find a way to push through it. I'm not getting many complete games or shutouts, but I'm getting a fair number of CC Sabathia games--that is, 6+ to 8 innings, 2,3, or 4 runs or even 5 runs (many on solo homers), get in trouble at some point but rally out of it, end up having a QS or near it, hand the bullpen a chance to win it (which they have delightfully started blowing with more frequency....but that's another issue)Comment
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
It's official:
3 ball counts are no longer getting a Christmas card from me.Fastalls down the middle aren't either.
Anyway, I've had a pretty good stretch on the mound lately, minus my seemingly incredible talent on missing wide 3-0. LOL! My K/BB ratio is definitely beginning to look better, thanks to some of the suggestions I've read in here and recieved via PM.
Derelict, Darwin, and Iliveforthis get extra extra special thanks!
I still seem to have innings where I blow it though, and lose all sense of strategy. But all in all, things are definitely coming along. It's crazy how even 100 games in, I'm constantly learning and adjusting my approach. Fine tuning, I guess.
Here's a perfect example of how I broke one of my own rules. Remember, I'm trying to maximize my BB/K numbers with my starters:
Kuroda was dealing the other night. After 8 IP, I had 2 BB and 8 K. Fantastic, right?! He was at 110 pitches. With the game well within my favor (19-1), I decided to let Kuroda attempt the CG.
Single.
And UGH...walk. THAT was on me.
I think if I stop trying to pad my stats in games like these, I'll really be able to begin to stomach those "4 BB, 5 K", and "3 BB, 3 K" performances (which seem to occur pretty often against well disciplined teams).
After 100 games, I've allowed 366 BB's and struck out 762 (a definite improvement from my 50 game mark).
I guess the point of my post is that it seems like the further along I get, the more adept the CPU becomes at putting the ball in play/laying off borderline pitches/holding up on their check swings. So, in turn, I've had to become better at getting out of jams/referencing the Pitcher Analysis Screen/taking chances on mixing speeds and location.
But, the biggest nugget: Ensuring you have at least one (but preferably two) high confidence pitch later in the game. My best starts this month reflected this. So plan for it.
Make this your mantra: Confidence is still king in MLB The Show. Above all else, keep your confidence (overall and ESPECIALLY pitch) as high as possible.Last edited by Heroesandvillains; 07-02-2012, 01:31 PM.Comment
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
Oh...
I'm also hoping to summon Derelict in here.
Early in the year, I exclusively used the API. VERY rarely shaking my catcher off.
Once I reached mid-May (ish), I started to feel as if I needed to call my own game slightly more often to succeed.
Derelict, do you have any stats you can share from your recent testing, or a little more in depth details from your post in the catcher game calling thread?
I've had to constantly adjust as the season has progressed in order to get more consistent results. Though my most dominating performances were almost exclusively API driven, my best long term stretches were generally a mixed bag; called by me a little bit more often. I get torn on the issue from time to time, especially when my backup catcher seems to call such a bad game! LOL!
I'm wondering how strictly going API (like I used to) is working for you Derelict, in comparision to calling a lot of your own game (which I presume you used to do?) ?Last edited by Heroesandvillains; 07-02-2012, 03:02 PM.Comment
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
On the API topic, I am the complete opposite. I just finished April in my play-all Brewers 'chise and I was mainly independent on calling my games. But, as the month went on, I found myself using the API on a more frequent basis, especially on stressed situations. And, to my pleasure, it has worked.
I finished the month 12-11 which while it isn't bad, it isn't great. I should have had about 3-4 more wins as the bullpen was SOOO shaky. Axford finished the month with an ERA of 13+ and has 3 losses. I just cannot get out of the stressful situations and it's cost me in the standings.Brewers | Golden Eagles | Packers | Bucks | Badgers | Fulham FC
PSN: ILFTrev
Ambition. Motivation. Dedication.
www.twitch.tv/ILiveForThisComment
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
I'm really torn on the whole API thing.
My best performances...I mean, my hands down greatest outings with my starter...were early in the year using the API. I'm refering to my mega-K games, mainly. And in each of those games, my walks were also really low.
I then hit a stretch where I couldn't get anything going on the mound. So I began to start calling my own games a bit more (I'd say still 60/40 in favor of the API), and began to dazzle again.
Though, my current dazzling doesn't compare to my early gems. Those were beautiful when they happened!
So I briefly went back to API only (essentially, minus some ridiculous calls, and some 0-2/1-2 stuff), and struggled.
I'm actually leaning towards going back to following the API like I used to. But I'm still a bit tentative. Especially with all these "Russell Martin sucks" (LOL!) notifications I've been getting. But to be honest, he generally calls such a good game. This is why I wanted Derelict's opinion because he's extensively testing this currently. I can't even say for sure whether catcher calling ability actually even exists.I think it does, but some people think they see ghosts. And aliens. It could be all in my imagination!
Last edited by Heroesandvillains; 07-02-2012, 07:02 PM.Comment
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
And..
I still have to wonder HOW similar the CPU pitching logic and API calls actually are? If they are one and the same (which you'd assume they would be), why is it that the API NEVER asks for high breaking pitches? The CPU goes up there all the time when they pitch to me.
Is it because the two are programmed differently? Is it because when the CPU pitches up there, those curves on the upper black are just mistakes?
Obviously, these questions are rhetorical. I just would love to know if following the API is 1:1 with pitching as a CPU?Comment
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
And..
I still have to wonder HOW similar the CPU pitching logic and API calls actually are? If they are one and the same (which you'd assume they would be), why is it that the API NEVER asks for high breaking pitches? The CPU goes up there all the time when they pitch to me.
Is it because the two are programmed differently? Is it because when the CPU pitches up there, those curves on the upper black are just mistakes?
Obviously, these questions are rhetorical. I just would love to know if following the API is 1:1 with pitching as a CPU?
I think all those high breaking pitches you see from CPU are basically mistakes... he's just hanging those pitches.Comment
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
I still seem to have innings where I blow it though, and lose all sense of strategy. But all in all, things are definitely coming along. It's crazy how even 100 games in, I'm constantly learning and adjusting my approach. Fine tuning, I guess.
Here's a perfect example of how I broke one of my own rules. Remember, I'm trying to maximize my BB/K numbers with my starters:
Kuroda was dealing the other night. After 8 IP, I had 2 BB and 8 K. Fantastic, right?! He was at 110 pitches. With the game well within my favor (19-1), I decided to let Kuroda attempt the CG.
Single.
And UGH...walk. THAT was on me.
I think if I stop trying to pad my stats in games like these, I'll really be able to begin to stomach those "4 BB, 5 K", and "3 BB, 3 K" performances (which seem to occur pretty often against well disciplined teams).
After 100 games, I've allowed 366 BB's and struck out 762 (a definite improvement from my 50 game mark).
I guess the point of my post is that it seems like the further along I get, the more adept the CPU becomes at putting the ball in play/laying off borderline pitches/holding up on their check swings. So, in turn, I've had to become better at getting out of jams/referencing the Pitcher Analysis Screen/taking chances on mixing speeds and location.
But, the biggest nugget: Ensuring you have at least one (but preferably two) high confidence pitch later in the game. My best starts this month reflected this. So plan for it.
Make this your mantra: Confidence is still king in MLB The Show. Above all else, keep your confidence (overall and ESPECIALLY pitch) as high as possible.
That one ("don't leave your starter in too long...") still kills me, particularly in the AL. With the Cubs, I'm almost surely going to want to/need to pinch hit for a guy, so unless I'm pretty sure I want him over a bullpen arm, I don't get into too many "should have taken him out earlier" moments with the Cubs. With the Angels, though.... lots of guys could have had lines like, 7.0, 5 h, 0 r, 5 k, 1bb, if I had done the right thing; instead, I push too far, and their line ends up being 7.1, 6h, 3r, 5k, 3bb; they still get the QS, still even the win.... but I still feel like I could be a little less ego driven (prove that you can get the cg shutout!) and a little more pragmatic. Hasn't quite bitten me hard enough yet, I guess, but I know it will.
The only thing I'd say about confidence, pitch or overall, though, is this: as long as you've been killing it, hitting those spots, as long as it took you to drive that confidence up.... see how quickly it totally disappears if you throw that pitch to the wrong guy in the wrong spot (thinking here of the Yankees-Braves real life game, in Atlanta, where ARod hit the grand slam off of Venters; in the Show, imagine what would have happened to Venters 2sm confidence after that--it could have been totally full, but I bet it would be totally empty after a grand slam). Hard come, easy go. That is the way of pitch confidence.Comment
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
Ok, Heroes, you've asked, and I shall answer. I'm going to play some games tonight, but then I believe it is time to tally some stuff and see what I've got, let's say, tomorrow, and at least have some numbers to look at to compare with my general feeling, which is this:
all or nothing is never the right choice, nor is saying never. Which is to say, the "mixed bag" you mention is going to be, probably, the final answer. Right now I'm using API exclusively just to see how it works, but I've already run into a couple of situations where I have had a decision to make: throw the pitch & location as called, which, in my judgement, would be VERY BAD; or do something else, like shake it off, throw over to first, step off, or just throw the pitch asked for, but essentially "waste" it, as in, make sure it is totally unhittable. If you can. But once this testing phase ends (which it might soon), I think my final answer would be, think about how a pitcher and a catcher really interact. It's almost never the catcher calling the game without the pitcher's input; Bull Durham is a movie, a great one, but one specifically about a veteran catcher schooling a hot young pitcher; once Nuke got to the bigs, and won 20, well, then, I bet he started shaking his catchers off whenever he felt like it (and wore moldy shower shoes, too). On the other side, it's not usually the pitcher doing it solely, either; hence the legendary Maddux wanting Eddie Perez; he and Eddie, or Charlie O'Brien, or whoever, worked together. They'd talk about it before the game. Eddie would make the calls; Maddux would do a lot of shaking off. But eventually, they'd get on the same page, and then, 74 pitches later, complete game win. So, if you take Nuke LaLoushe on the one hand, who could never call his own game, and Greg Maddux on the other, who only needs a guy holding a glove, each of them, I say, would be theoretically better with a smart catcher who knows the pitcher's strengths and weaknesses and helps him however necessary.
Ok, that's all conjecture, pop culture and hero worship; after I play some games tonight, I'm off of work tomorrow, and when my thumbs get tired, I'll stop and tally some numbers and report back on a number of different such topics. And then we'll see what I have to report, fwiw.Comment
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
Ok, Heroes, you've asked, and I shall answer. I'm going to play some games tonight, but then I believe it is time to tally some stuff and see what I've got, let's say, tomorrow, and at least have some numbers to look at to compare with my general feeling, which is this:
all or nothing is never the right choice, nor is saying never. Which is to say, the "mixed bag" you mention is going to be, probably, the final answer. Right now I'm using API exclusively just to see how it works, but I've already run into a couple of situations where I have had a decision to make: throw the pitch & location as called, which, in my judgement, would be VERY BAD; or do something else, like shake it off, throw over to first, step off, or just throw the pitch asked for, but essentially "waste" it, as in, make sure it is totally unhittable. If you can. But once this testing phase ends (which it might soon), I think my final answer would be, think about how a pitcher and a catcher really interact. It's almost never the catcher calling the game without the pitcher's input; Bull Durham is a movie, a great one, but one specifically about a veteran catcher schooling a hot young pitcher; once Nuke got to the bigs, and won 20, well, then, I bet he started shaking his catchers off whenever he felt like it (and wore moldy shower shoes, too). On the other side, it's not usually the pitcher doing it solely, either; hence the legendary Maddux wanting Eddie Perez; he and Eddie, or Charlie O'Brien, or whoever, worked together. They'd talk about it before the game. Eddie would make the calls; Maddux would do a lot of shaking off. But eventually, they'd get on the same page, and then, 74 pitches later, complete game win. So, if you take Nuke LaLoushe on the one hand, who could never call his own game, and Greg Maddux on the other, who only needs a guy holding a glove, each of them, I say, would be theoretically better with a smart catcher who knows the pitcher's strengths and weaknesses and helps him however necessary.
Ok, that's all conjecture, pop culture and hero worship; after I play some games tonight, I'm off of work tomorrow, and when my thumbs get tired, I'll stop and tally some numbers and report back on a number of different such topics. And then we'll see what I have to report, fwiw.
FYI - H&V and others - I never use the API, have it turned off. I have always enjoyed the satisfaction (or frustration) of calling my own game.Comment
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
I went back and played MLB 10 today and boy, I have no clue how to use Classic pitching in that game. Served up too many meatballs.
What are the differences between Classic in 12 and in 10? I'm using Knight's 2000 roster and it is great, but giving up 20 hits a game isn't a lot of fun.Currently Playing:
MLB The Show 25 (PS5)Comment
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
I'm pretty confident that the Pitch Control slider has no effect on classic pitching. I've tested the slider over a hundred games at different values and haven't seen that much of a change. I cranked it up to 10 and I still don't come close to hitting any spots. I would think on 10 it would be "automatic" that you would hit every spot you choose.
Anyone else have a similar experience with that slider? It seems consistency is the only one that has a true effect on hitting your spots.Comment
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
Ok, so I looked through what I've got, and I've got around 54-55 games to tally up overall; only the last 12-14 have to do with the catcher experiment. It's going to take a while to tally (it's part math and part archaeological dig--my handwriting, in pencil, scrawled in near darkness makes it hard to tell my 1's from my 7's and any number of things; note to self--it's the 21st century, keep your notes on your laptop!), but I've looked the numbers over, and have a couple things to say (real numbers will appear at some point, I promise):
--going with catcher calls all the way (in other words, doing just what the API says) is not the answer. I knew I had been "cheating" in a way all along; I was going with the pitch, taking the location as advice, and sort of fudging a bit; the last 2 games, 1 with the cubs and 1 with the angels, I ABSOLUTELY went with catcher calls all the way, not questioning a thing and trying to put it exactly where they wanted. Results: Angels: Weaver 4.1 IP, 11h, 7er, 1k, 1bb (dontrelle willis let him down, allowed 2 or 3 inherited runners to score in a bad 5th inning all around); Cubs: Samardzija 5.0, 4 h, 4 r, 3 er, 4k, 3bb (on the same night he killed my Braves IRL--quick, someone call Alanis, is that irony or not?), followed by R. Wells 2.0, 4h, 4 er, 0bb, 0 k. So, either that is a big coinkydinky, or I had been essentially letting the catcher make the pitch selection, and then I had been using his location as advice. Now, I have to say, that's what classic is about--if you want me to hit THAT spot, I have to actually aim it WAY OVER HERE--which, as we have learned about classic, often means the pitch goes..... well, you name it, it can happen. So, numbers to follow, but the lesson is this: using API to suggest pitches is pretty good, as all 4 catchers I used were pretty good at mixing it up (relatively; they all relied heavily on the pitches in order, that is #1 got 50% or more of the calls, and #2 was pretty high, too; #4 & 5 rarely ever got used), particularly later in a starter's outing, and GENERALLY do a good job of both helping keep confidence high and staying away from low confidence pitches in tough situations (I say generally because both Ross & Conger now have asked me to throw low confidence breaking pitches in 3-2 counts where I really did not want to walk the guy--essentially asking me to hang a 3-2 breaking ball, with runners on base, in tight games--that's a strategy to be considered, but very, very carefully!). So, I would say, if you have trouble calling your own game, or get in a tight spot, see what your catcher has to say; I'd rely on him more for pitch selection than location, I guess. I'll say this: if you have confidence in a catcher, and have a decent pitcher, those first 3-4 innings can be a breeze; just let the catcher call the game until it gets tight (you throw a walk, you give up a couple hits in a row all of a sudden), and then start thinking. I imagine that's what a lot of real pitchers do; Hey, if I can throw my fastball and my change for 3 innings, get some quick outs, then I'll start breaking out the other stuff the next time through. And for that kind of basic thing, most catchers do a good job.
--and finally, since this is the pitching discussion, I thought I'd say, classic is so fun, I'd never go back anyway, but my stats indicate that my overall numbers are actually better with classic, esp since I've tweaked sliders and learned a few things, than they were in the old meter days. I'm looking at some old stats compared to what I've been putting up recently, and it looks good, makes me happy, and makes me think I've got the right sliders and the right mindset to be able to pitch well most of the time--and, here's the kicker: I'm learning to do what the "great ones" supposedly do, which is, anyone (ha!) can throw a 3 hit shutout with their best stuff; the great ones are the ones who can go 5+ and keep their team in the game when they have nothing at all. But looking at some of my old stats (lots of 7 or 8 inning games, witha few complete games thrown in, low runs, no walks, high strikeouts, but lots of hits given up and high pitch counts) vs new stats (no complete games, but lots of quality starts, more walks, less strikeouts, less hits given up, LOWER pitch counts...), I seem to be winning & losing similarly, but these are just much, much more realistic and more pleasing. I think, by the time I'm done with 2013, I'll have a game where it all works just right; not a nono, but just a good 2 or 3 hit shutout. I've been on the verge a few times, just haven't quite gotten it, and I'm trying not to push it. Anyway, 50 or so games worth of classic pitching stats being tallied and will come soon, but... for tonight, I'm gonna go play one more game then get some rest, we celebrate 4th of July hard and alllllllll day long in my family!Comment
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Re: Classic Pitching Questions and Discussion 2012
Had two gems last night where I went with the API about 80 percent of the time. Stepping off when I wanted another suggestion, or going with my gut in high pressure and 2 strike situations (though rarely the latter).
CC shined in game one against BAL, going 7 IP, 3 hits, 2 BB (both in the 2nd inning), 7 K.
Banuelos, in game two, goes on to throw one of my all time favorite games since like May! 7.2 IP, 5 hits, 1 BB, 8 K!!! I think he officially made the rotation last night, by the way.
Martin and I were on the same page all day long. It honestly felt pretty good. BAL is a great confidence booster!Comment
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