Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

[kingaddi]

Re: Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

Glad you're happy though.

M.K.
Knight165

You know what this MLB 2k vs. MLBTS remind me of??? It reminds me of Madden vs NFL2K. After Madden bought the exclusive long term rights to the NFL, years after NFL2K was still the better product even though Madden kept ramping the graphics. Madden truly is an arcade style game.

How many years has it been since nano blitzing has destroyed the Madden gameplay? NFL2K never had that issue....

[Knight165]

Re: Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

You know what this MLB 2k vs. MLBTS remind me of??? It reminds me of Madden vs NFL2K. After Madden bought the exclusive long term rights to the NFL, years after NFL2K was still the better product even though Madden kept ramping the graphics. Madden truly is an arcade style game.

How many years has it been since nano blitzing has destroyed the Madden gameplay? NFL2K never had that issue....

I'm not sure what you mean here.
....and I don't think you're grasping the mechanics of guess pitch.

M.K.
Knight165

[bwiggy33]

Re: Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

Haha wow I cannot believe some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread. The Show Arcade? You've got to be out of your flipping mind. It represents its sport better than any other sports video game. It's not even close. MLB 2k is the arcade style game with some sim elements. The reason The Show doesn't capture everyone is because it's too real. Some people don't want to sit down for 45 min- 1 hour and play one game. I know I do because that's baseball. It's fine people don't prefer The Show but to say it's arcade is making me laugh my a$$ of right now.

Also Kingaddi how does a bunch of statistical categories make a game arcade or sim? Isn't the gameplay the true test? The Show may not have as many stat categories, but the numbers are always within the realm you would see in real life. Also looking at a menu screen full of stats doesn't show off whether a game is sim or not. You actually have to play it. Play 20 games of 2k and tell me what you see. I bet you see balls hit in the same exact spots on the field, weird and canned animations, players running into wrong dugouts, etc. It's been that way for years. Needless to say 2k is not dynamic. In The Show anything can happen. In 2k it's all too predictable. 2k has gotten better for the past couple years but it is in no way comparable with The Show. I played 3 games of 2k at a friends house this year and not any more. The reason, because it is in no way respectable to what The Show offers. They are in two different planets. All that matters is that you're having fun though. The Show just isn't for everyone.

[kingaddi]

Re: Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

Haha wow I cannot believe some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread. The Show Arcade? You've got to be out of your flipping mind. It represents its sport better than any other sports video game. It's not even close. MLB 2k is the arcade style game with some sim elements. The reason The Show doesn't capture everyone is because it's too real. Some people don't want to sit down for 45 min- 1 hour and play one game. I know I do because that's baseball. It's fine people don't prefer The Show but to say it's arcade is making me laugh my a$$ of right now.

Also Kingaddi how does a bunch of statistical categories make a game arcade or sim? Isn't the gameplay the true test? The Show may not have as many stat categories, but the numbers are always within the realm you would see in real life. Also looking at a menu screen full of stats doesn't show off whether a game is sim or not. You actually have to play it. Play 20 games of 2k and tell me what you see. I bet you see balls hit in the same exact spots on the field, weird and canned animations, players running into wrong dugouts, etc. It's been that way for years. Needless to say 2k is not dynamic. In The Show anything can happen. In 2k it's all too predictable. 2k has gotten better for the past couple years but it is in no way comparable with The Show. I played 3 games of 2k at a friends house this year and not any more. The reason, because it is in no way respectable to what The Show offers. They are in two different planets. All that matters is that you're having fun though. The Show just isn't for everyone.

Let's embrace debate

Baseball has always been a sport that is rich in statistical information. Anyone who is an historian or a student of the game will tell you this. MLB 2K12's use of sabermetrics brings the game to life because it creates a layer of presentation, analytical insight, and commentary that parallels the real life game. But it is only one piece of the sim-puzzle.

You are too fixated on the graphics. But yes, I am in total agreement that MLBTS is absolutely the best visual representation of the game. Its engine's use of real life physics, and detailed mapping of every elements of the game, makes it the visual benchmark of baseball simulators. But again that is only one piece of the sim-puzzle.

Control mechanics is another element of the sim-puzzle. Both use similar/same batting control mechanics. With the exception that MLBTS has the 'guess pitch' feature which can be easily turned off. But this brings me to my point which is in the pitching department. MLB2K12 pitching controls are not a simple 'push button' game vs. its counterpart. And because of this, even users of MLBTS would like this feature added to the game. If you go through the Operation Sports - Top Five Wishes For MLBTS 13 - read through the comments section and you will see many references made to MLB2K12 pitching controls:

http://www.operationsports.com/featu...b-13-the-show/

MLB 2K12's version of player career mode is also a better RPG. XPs are awarded to different focus areas depending on what element of your player's game you are developing. Therefore XPs are categorized and spending is restricted to those focus areas. In MLBTS 12, XPs are simply awarded and the user is allowed to spend freely with no restriction - therefore the user can exploit the development of their character. Case in point - it is easier to develop your running speed in MLBTS 12 because of no spending restrictions. While in MLB 2K12 your character has to do something related to a running event such as steal a base, hit for extra bases , etc in order to gain 'running xp'. But again, this is only one piece of the sim-puzzle.

As you can see, MLB 2K12 captures a lot of the puzzle pieces. But, the largest piece of the puzzle being graphics it failed. If MLB 2K12 had the physics of MLBTS 12, but its current 2K graphics, surely the critics would use graphics as the benchmark for a baseball sim and fail to recognized all the different areas that make up the sim experience. But I question if those critics are pro-sim or pro-arcade? MLB 2K12 is one game engine upgrade away from creating an epic baseball simulator. Unfortunately they had a bad product team.

[bwiggy33]

Re: Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

As for graphics I couldn't really give a crap. In fact I never mentioned them once in my post. Are the graphics good in The Show, hell yes, but that's just a bonus to The Show. I care about gameplay. Gameplay blows 2k out of the water in that department. No question the best digital representation of any sport out there.

I respectfully disagree on the pitching. To me the pitching is not good in 2k. I played that game consistently from 2k6-2k10 until I bought a PS3 for The Show. The pitching is the most simple mechanic I've ever used. The concept is great but the challenge was next to nothing and that's with me amping up all pitching meter sliders. It was just way too simple for me, and that's not trying to brag or anything. For me I found it boring because I was simply too good at it. In The Show it may be just the simple push of the button but it's challenging because if you miss hitting the line, you get screwed. Very very simple but really affective and that is why I enjoy it.

[pistolpete]

Re: Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

2ks franchise mode does a much better job of presentation and stat tracking and presentation than the Show does. While the Show did add advanced statistics this year which is nice, they failed to make them sortable by league leaders.

There are no headlines on the Show, but there are on 2k. It's cool being notified with Bryce Harper makes his major league debut.

On 2k the top 100 prospects are ranked. Who doesn't love prospects.

And of course the player card keeps track of awards, in-depth stats, and all sorts of goodies MLB the Show doesn't track.

Stat tracking on MLB the Show is pretty embarrassing.

[hjgilber]

Re: Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

Wow to this convo...The Show completely destroys 2K.

The Show isn't just about graphics. How about it's about the fact that it actually plays like baseball and the game works fluidly and isn't massively bugged.

The Show's GAMEPLAY kills and annihilates 2K. Also, I'm sure The Show will upgrade the stats at some point.

The funny thing anyway, is that you have most of the information available in order to calculate most SABR stats you want yourself. If you can't figure out how to calculate something like wOBA or whatever other stat you are interested in then you probably don't even understand it. So if you don't understand sabermetrics to begin with then why do you care if they are there? If you are complaining that a game doesn't calculate everything for you, you probably don't have the understanding to have a useful application for them anyway. I study sabermetrics myself and do presentations for Vince Gennaro (president of SABR) and statisticians from MLB front offices so I am not just blowing smoke, I know what I am talking about.

I'll say I don't even know what statistics 2K even has in it's presentation anyway because I haven't spent enough time with the game to do so, but my point doesn't change at all due to that.

[pistolpete]

Re: Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

The funny thing anyway, is that you have most of the information available in order to calculate most SABR stats you want yourself. If you can't figure out how to calculate something like wOBA or whatever other stat you are interested in then you probably don't even understand it. So if you don't understand sabermetrics to begin with then why do you care if they are there? If you are complaining that a game doesn't calculate everything for you, you probably don't have the understanding to have a useful application for them anyway. I study sabermetrics myself and do presentations for Vince Gennaro (president of SABR) and statisticians from MLB front offices so I am not just blowing smoke, I know what I am talking about.

I can calculate ERA and BA just fine, but I'd rather not have to play my game with a calculator in my hand. I could probably get to the bottom of sabremetrics (assuming they are linear, non-linear and I can't do it) with a couple regressions, but I don't really feel like putting a couple hundred major leaguers into spreadsheets or matlab or whatever stat program people use.

But, you're right I probably don't care enough anyways.

I care deeply my car runs, but since I don't know combustion thermo-chemistry the automobile must be wasted on me.

I care deeply blood flows through my body, but I know nothing about bio-fluid mechanics, so I must not really care.

Just because someone doesn't know how to do something, doesn't mean they don't care about it.

EDIT: I know the Show does ERA and BA.

[DJ]

Re: Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

The Show handles just about all of the fundamentals better on the field. In terms of quality of game play, you can pretty much end your search right away. That said, the pacing and controls of 2K are preferred over The Show's by some people.

Where 2K does a great job is in presentation, commentary, and stat tracking. The commentary and stat-tracking is FAR better than The Show's overall. Presentation is a little more subjective as both games do different things well (and Sounds of the Show gives SCEA major points in this area).

2K baseball tracks an incredible amount of stats during a season and from year to year in franchise. It keeps detailed record info, tracks yearly awards, keeps track of splits, tracks injuries, etc (side note-I love the chronic injuries feature-though The Show has manual injuries which is awesome for different reasons). It's one of the more impressive aspects they have going for them and makes their franchise more engaging on it's own merit IMO (in other words, if game play and AI/sim engine were equal in both games, I'd probably prefer 2K's franchise mode. It's not equal though, which is where The Show really distances itself IMO). It's also worth noting that 2K has the current playoff format and The Show doesn't.

Commentary is excellent (and this is coming from a guy who hates 2 of their 3 commentators) and the level of recognition to season milestones, league info, etc is top notch. Presentation follows suit with a ton of overlays and info.

2K also has a more detailed rating system as well, with individual ratings for positions, how catchers call games, doubles, triples, etc.

The trouble with 2K in all of this is that, while it certainly provides all this info and detail, it doesn't translate as well onto the field as many of the ratings don't mean all that much, the sim engine is flawed, etc. Both games have bugs and some freezing issues reported this year. For what it's worth, I've not had any major issues with either (except a newer 2K issue, which I'll explain in a bit).

2K can be tweaked to play a solid game, but it takes rating adjustments, heavy slider tweaking, etc. That won't solve AI issues of poor bullpen management, guys not covering the field or backing each other up correctly, questionable substitutions, etc. Roster logic is spotty in both games (and, IMO, sports games in general).

Finally, it needs to be mentioned that 2K currently has a near-crippling bug with their MLB Today feature (which impacts the entire game) since Oct. 3. The game simply will hang up on the main screen and not play. You have to change your system clock back to an earlier date to play. This is very minor on PC, but on consoles (especially the 360 now-apparently a dashboard update made this more complicated) it can be a pain. There are steps in the 2K forums here that can walk you through.

To sum up, The Show is "there" already and 2K plays like a WIP..promising, but not quite there. I'd recommend The Show completely. It's more polished, better supported, etc. I like 2K12 and am currently enjoying my franchise in it, but I'd only recommend 2K for PC, fully modded, and steeply discounted. I don't think the gap in quality is even debatable, but there is a level of preference between the two and plenty of people prefer 2K's brand and game play controls/interaction to SCEA's.

This was a well thought-out post.

I obviously love The Show (the game got me to buy a PSP, PS3 and PSVita for cripes sake) and what's been said here by vets like Knight and co. are spot-on with that game.

2K can be an enjoyable experience, though. 2K10-12 weren't terrible games. They have some good things going for them, as mentioned above. The more arcade-like experience can be a nice change-of-pace from The Show, and if you have both consoles, it wouldn't hurt to have a decent baseball title for the 360.

Obviously if you are only going to pick one, it's MLB The Show.

[BlueSkies7776]

Re: Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

Let's embrace debate

Baseball has always been a sport that is rich in statistical information. Anyone who is an historian or a student of the game will tell you this. MLB 2K12's use of sabermetrics brings the game to life because it creates a layer of presentation, analytical insight, and commentary that parallels the real life game. But it is only one piece of the sim-puzzle.

You are too fixated on the graphics. But yes, I am in total agreement that MLBTS is absolutely the best visual representation of the game. Its engine's use of real life physics, and detailed mapping of every elements of the game, makes it the visual benchmark of baseball simulators. But again that is only one piece of the sim-puzzle.

Control mechanics is another element of the sim-puzzle. Both use similar/same batting control mechanics. With the exception that MLBTS has the 'guess pitch' feature which can be easily turned off. But this brings me to my point which is in the pitching department. MLB2K12 pitching controls are not a simple 'push button' game vs. its counterpart. And because of this, even users of MLBTS would like this feature added to the game. If you go through the Operation Sports - Top Five Wishes For MLBTS 13 - read through the comments section and you will see many references made to MLB2K12 pitching controls:

http://www.operationsports.com/featu...b-13-the-show/

MLB 2K12's version of player career mode is also a better RPG. XPs are awarded to different focus areas depending on what element of your player's game you are developing. Therefore XPs are categorized and spending is restricted to those focus areas. In MLBTS 12, XPs are simply awarded and the user is allowed to spend freely with no restriction - therefore the user can exploit the development of their character. Case in point - it is easier to develop your running speed in MLBTS 12 because of no spending restrictions. While in MLB 2K12 your character has to do something related to a running event such as steal a base, hit for extra bases , etc in order to gain 'running xp'. But again, this is only one piece of the sim-puzzle.

As you can see, MLB 2K12 captures a lot of the puzzle pieces. But, the largest piece of the puzzle being graphics it failed. If MLB 2K12 had the physics of MLBTS 12, but its current 2K graphics, surely the critics would use graphics as the benchmark for a baseball sim and fail to recognized all the different areas that make up the sim experience. But I question if those critics are pro-sim or pro-arcade? MLB 2K12 is one game engine upgrade away from creating an epic baseball simulator. Unfortunately they had a bad product team.

Your second paragraph automatically gets you off in a bad light. He never mentions graphics at all, so it seems like you're trying to use the excuse that people like MLB 12 The Show more because of the good graphics. That's not the case at all.

I might be wrong in this assessment, but I think there are really two (maybe 3) types of Baseball fans. Type A is absolutely fixated and addicted to stats, and type B is more interested in the game itself on the field and how it is played. Obviously Type A preferred games like Heat Heat and other games that excelled more on stats and realistic outcomes. Meanwhile, Type B likes games that excel more on actual gameplay on the field. So for Type A, MLB 2k12 might be the better choice, and for Type B, MLB 12 The Show is the right choice.

I personally fall more into the category of Type B. I love a good game of Baseball on the field and I think a good, realistic game on the field is my most important aspect of any Baseball game. And this is where MLB 12 The Show is fantastic and MLB 2k12 is not quite there yet.

[grahoben]

Re: Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

I'm probably biased since all I have even owned is The Show, but I think it's much better because of the graphics and gameplay.

[pistolpete]

Re: Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

I've played both games....a lot, and I wouldn't really say that 2k has more realistic stats. I'd be tempted to say the Show actually has a better sim engine.

One thing 2k has that I enjoy is it is way easier. I don't know crap about baseball, so if I'm swinging away in a non hitter's count and I happen to put a really good swing on the ball I will be rewarded.

I feel like on the Show you have to know how to approach an at bat as a pro would do in real life. This is a monumental hurdle for tons of people. I've said it before the Show needs to have some kind of arcade or casual game setting like nba2k has. This would make it much more accessible to people like me who never had the patience or skill to get off pro setting.

[daflyboys]

Re: Which game: MLB 2K12 or The Show?

I still don't see The Show to date as having worked in realistic fielders' movements once you take control. What good is it to have the player model look fantastic, but still pivot, change direction, change speeds, etc. as if it is still a 32 bit engine?