The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

[maverick3176]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

I agree with everything you said. I was under the impression that you do have to swing the right analog stick in the general direction.

Example: here's my little strike zone...

123
456
789

Any pitch to zones 1, 4, and 7 would be an 11 o'clock up swing with the right stick. Pitch in zones 2, 5, and 8 would be 12 o'clock up swing and zones 3, 6, and 9 would be a 1 o'clock up swing.

ok...you are gettin. With the current system to hit a fastball in zone 1 and zone 9 you are doing EXACTLY the same thing. Think about how for some pitcher this totally makes them meaningless.

Lets say you are a lefty going against Mo. He throw 2 cutter for strikes to zone 6, then zone 3. Many hitters would back off the plate....now he throws a 2seam at zone 7. In real life that 2-seamer might freez you are you couldnt react to hit and would reach for it and hit it weakly or get totally blown away by it.

with this system...you willl probably destroy that 2 seamer...cuz you were use to the speed and may have even reacted to it...to get a good hit. In real life that is very hard to do. With the hitting system i described...you would maybe attempt to foul it off...with mixed results or you would totally get fooled and be unable to react to that spot

[Trevytrev11]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

I agree with everything you said. I was under the impression that you do have to swing the right analog stick in the general direction.

Example: here's my little strike zone...

123
456
789

Any pitch to zones 1, 4, and 7 would be an 11 o'clock up swing with the right stick. Pitch in zones 2, 5, and 8 would be 12 o'clock up swing and zones 3, 6, and 9 would be a 1 o'clock up swing.

OK, what would dictate the trajectgory of the ball? Ratings? Pitch location (low pitches hit on the ground, high pitches hit in the air, mid pitches hit for line drives?)

I've had this conversation before, maybe with you, I can't remember the name, but what if your up in a situation that requires a groundball to the rightside and pitcher will throw you nothing but fastballs up in the zone. Is it then impossible to hit that ball on the ground? Is it left up to chance? Pitchers usually pitch to the situation (low stuff when trying for a double play, or preventing a sac fly, up when a hitters trying to hit and run or hit behind a runner, etc.).

Let's take David Eckstein for example and say he hits 40% grounders, 35% line drives and 25% flyballs (made up numbers). Would that then mean I have a 40% chance of accomlishing what I want to do by hitting the ball on the ground (understanding the right side part is based on the timing of my swing)?

Those might be his cumulative stats, but I know that Eckstein has amazing bat control and can hit a grounder to the right on an inside pitch if he has to. I've seen him do it numerous times, but this is only a small sample of his total AB's, so these numbers are washed out by at bats in which he is not in these situations.

This is where this situation loses me. With control, I can control, if I am good at it, where and how the ball will be hit. With a timing only system, I lose that because it's either up to the pitch location or hitters stats which won't take this into account and definitely won't understand what I am trying to do.

I guess you system in one up from the current one (or maybe the same..who knows until we play it) as it at leasts forces you to recognize inside, middle and outside, but still, to me, oversimplifies a very difficult thing to do.

[davewins]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

Dave you are killing me dude.

1. How can you say simplistic is better, when the pitching, throwing and feilding for this game are all getting more compllicated and giving the user more control.

2. Your comments about hitting make me realize the problem. Some of us have played baseball, we realize that hitting is an act of true hand eye coordination, that the difference between a homer, a foul ball and miss is inches and those inches are determined not just by timing...but by where I chose to swing the ball. Player attributes should give the user room for greater error...but in the end...i am not simming the game...i want to play it. I think some people dont play baseball and are pure gamers and want simple button controls for things and have no idea how it is nothing like real life.

3. Now with this easy over simplified timing system...you want the timing window even bigger? Would you like a prompt to tell you when to swing so it eliminates all chances of missing the ball. I mean at some point the game needs to have a realistic level of difficulty. Hitting a baseball isnt easy and the game should reflect that.

4. With my hitting system it would allow for options. The current method has no option (classic and swing stick are both timed) for someone who actually wants realism and some degree of difficulty and user control.

5. The game has gone in the direction of sim, realism and increased user control in EVERY aspect except hitting. If you want simple then the pitching system will probably drive you nuts.

Timing window being larger meaning it would be more difficult to make solid contact man!!! Sorry for the confusion but I want it so say every tenth of a second makes a difference in quality of contact opposed to say every half a second. I know those aren't accurate but I just want to use that to explain waht I mean by a LARGER timing window. I probably should of said smaller my mistake.

I do not want simple. I want the game to be harder. I never played 2k7 after seeing videos of inside pitches going yard to opposite field. I was happy and content with The Show except for the fact that hitting was too easy and I could not make it difficult. I would get 10+ hits every single game easily. Most of which were right back up the middle because the timing window was ridiculously inaccurate.

Don't know if you played MVP but think back if you did about the swing analysis and the yellow and green balls. Yellow representing a foul ball light green representing contact and dark green representing the best possible contact and then yellow again if you swung too late for pitches fouled back. Well I basically want there to be a lot more yellow balls but spaced very close to each other in a smaller area and the same with the light green and dark green. I hope you can understand what I mean by increasing the timing window. Surely not to make it easier. To make more difficult but keep the simplicity of user control there.

Basically I think that with the right analog stick and having to put a good swing with that with the addition of perfectly locating the left analog stick where the ball is pitched in the 9 zones it's going to be very difficult. Just like patting your head and rubbing your stomach. If however it was just a button you had to press and move the left analog stick in the exact zone it would be easier but of course the timing window would have to be like I said....It would have to be very crucial timing.

To sum up my feelings I think they need to make the swing a fairly easy motion because when you are in the big leagues your swing is down. Mechanics are among the best and that is not an issue. Seeing the ball and hitting the ball is not as difficult as it seems. The timing window has to be greatly increased to make it more difficult and accurate.

I agree with Trev's points about bat placement on pitches from Mo that cut in and good breaking balls...sinkers etc. I think this game is going to take in to effect the quality of the pitch and location and there is only so much you can do with it. You have to remember at the big league level good pitching shuts down good hitting. You hear about pitchers being unhittable but never batter's being unstoppable. Pitching controls the game and if say Wang's sinker is on you just can't do anything with it even if you located the left analog stick in the "right" spot. There are negatives and positives about it but I think this sysem is better.

[davewins]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

ok...you are gettin. With the current system to hit a fastball in zone 1 and zone 9 you are doing EXACTLY the same thing. Think about how for some pitcher this totally makes them meaningless.

Lets say you are a lefty going against Mo. He throw 2 cutter for strikes to zone 6, then zone 3. Many hitters would back off the plate....now he throws a 2seam at zone 7. In real life that 2-seamer might freez you are you couldnt react to hit and would reach for it and hit it weakly or get totally blown away by it.

with this system...you willl probably destroy that 2 seamer...cuz you were use to the speed and may have even reacted to it...to get a good hit. In real life that is very hard to do. With the hitting system i described...you would maybe attempt to foul it off...with mixed results or you would totally get fooled and be unable to react to that spot

Well I was under the impression (and I still am) that the hitting is going to be moving the right analog stick in the general direction of the pitch. Yeah I know it can't account for high and low pitches but you still have to load back and fire forward and in the right direction to make contact.

I think that your way is good and it makes sense. Believe me I have been playing this way in games for a while. I just think that finally for the first time in a baseball video game we could possibly see things like sinkers unhittable while in previous games all you had to do is hold down on the left stick and meet the ball in the right zone. Good sinkers are pretty much unhittable. That's the way it should be.

I believe it should be an option to hit zone as well and I thought that they still do have the old way of hitting in as well. I could be wrong.

[maverick3176]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

Basically I think that with the right analog stick and having to put a good swing with that with the addition of perfectly locating the left analog stick where the ball is pitched in the 9 zones it's going to be very difficult. Just like patting your head and rubbing your stomach. If however it was just a button you had to press and move the left analog stick in the exact zone it would be easier but of course the timing window would have to be like I said....It would have to be very crucial timing.

To sum up my feelings I think they need to make the swing a fairly easy motion because when you are in the big leagues your swing is down. Mechanics are among the best and that is not an issue. Seeing the ball and hitting the ball is not as difficult as it seems. The timing window has to be greatly increased to make it more difficult and accurate.

I agree with Trev's points about bat placement on pitches from Mo that cut in and good breaking balls...sinkers etc. I think this game is going to take in to effect the quality of the pitch and location and there is only so much you can do with it. You have to remember at the big league level good pitching shuts down good hitting. You hear about pitchers being unhittable but never batter's being unstoppable. Pitching controls the game and if say Wang's sinker is on you just can't do anything with it even if you located the left analog stick in the "right" spot. There are negatives and positives about it but I think this sysem is better.

ok...i think we agree about alot more than I thought

1. the issue of bat placement is really at the core of my problem with this game.

2. I understand what you mean by timing window and i agree

3. I am all for unstoppable pitchers...i dont mind if I swing low at wangs sinker that the result is that I pound it into the ground each time. My problem is that I (emphasis on I) want to swing low and get on top of it because I am fooled about its location. If Mariano jams me on a nasty cutter (I want to be jammed). With the 2K7 I didnt get jammed I hit bombs when i probably would have been jammed...from what 2K8 sounds like...it seems that I will get jammed but the difference between me getting jammed and getting a hit is SOLELY up to the simulation adn not up to anything I do

4. Also your comment about mapping the swing to a button and lt analog aiming...dude....i have no problem with that...i wish they never went to the swing stick...or if the swing stick was jst an option. As far as using both analogs being difficult...as someone once said...people said that about shooters at one point and now it is second nature. Like you said the rt analog is just a swing...its actually kind of mindless and repetitive...doesnt take much to keep doing it like 2nd nature

[davewins]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

This is where this situation loses me. With control, I can control, if I am good at it, where and how the ball will be hit. With a timing only system, I lose that because it's either up to the pitch location or hitters stats which won't take this into account and definitely won't understand what I am trying to do.

Well a lot has to do with pitch location. There is situational pitching as there is situational hitting. The pitcher knows who is going to be swinging away and who is going to be trying to advance the runner based on the batter up and the score etc etc. Some pitches can't be hit the opposite way no matter how hard the batter trys. I think this is where that system will be good.

I do think there should be an option like in The Show flick the right analog stick for situational purposes before the pitch but I still think the pitch location and type have to be crucial and the swing in order to succeed in what you are attempting to do at the plate.

[davewins]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

ok...i think we agree about alot more than I thought

1. the issue of bat placement is really at the core of my problem with this game.

2. I understand what you mean by timing window and i agree

3. I am all for unstoppable pitchers...i dont mind if I swing low at wangs sinker that the result is that I pound it into the ground each time. My problem is that I (emphasis on I) want to swing low and get on top of it because I am fooled about its location. If Mariano jams me on a nasty cutter (I want to be jammed). With the 2K7 I didnt get jammed I hit bombs when i probably would have been jammed...from what 2K8 sounds like...it seems that I will get jammed but the difference between me getting jammed and getting a hit is SOLELY up to the simulation adn not up to anything I do

4. Also your comment about mapping the swing to a button and lt analog aiming...dude....i have no problem with that...i wish they never went to the swing stick...or if the swing stick was jst an option. As far as using both analogs being difficult...as someone once said...people said that about shooters at one point and now it is second nature. Like you said the rt analog is just a swing...its actually kind of mindless and repetitive...doesnt take much to keep doing it like 2nd nature

Well I will agree that we both care a LOT about the hitting in baseball video games!! LOL.

I honestly think comparing FPS shooters and hitting a baseball in a video game is hard to do. FPS shooters you don't have to think about precise location with the left stick. You are just moving your character with the left analog stick. The right analog stick is the only precise action. The left analog stick is just moving your guy where he wants to go...there is no precise movement involved. There are 9 different locations to move the left analog stick in a very brief timeframe all while concentrating on moving the right analog stick back at the right time and forward at the right time in a smooth manner. I think they should indeed ditch the swing stick. I'm not all for it. I thought at first it was good because it could result in getting fooled on offspeed pitches but I think pressure sensitive button swinging would be good for me with the addition of a true 9 zone strike zone philosophy.

What I don't want to see is Wang's sinker be unhittable like it is in real life when he is on and have it be hittable just because the user can hold down left and in and just wait for it in that zone.

Let me also add a very important feature that I think should be implemented with zone placement. I think that it should be tracking your left analog stick movement all the way up to the point of contact instead of when you first swing the bat (or press the swing button lol). This would make it more realistic when hitting pitches with good movement. I think there would be a penalty in the type of swing you put on the ball though. The more you have to track the left analog stick the less power you will get on the ball because in reality you were partially fooled and didn't put your best swing on it.

[maverick3176]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

Well a lot has to do with pitch location. There is situational pitching as there is situational hitting. The pitcher knows who is going to be swinging away and who is going to be trying to advance the runner based on the batter up and the score etc etc. Some pitches can't be hit the opposite way no matter how hard the batter trys. I think this is where that system will be good.

I do think there should be an option like in The Show flick the right analog stick for situational purposes before the pitch but I still think the pitch location and type have to be crucial and the swing in order to succeed in what you are attempting to do at the plate.

I just know that of all the hitting systems I played. 2k3-2k5 felt the most like real hitting. When I grounded out, popped up, hit a homer or hit a linedrive. I KNEW EXACTLY why. As a pitcher I knew how to make someone ground out or how to really fool the batter. Every know and then there would be a hit that i would say 'how did he do that' (ironically only when i was pitching), but when i pulled and outside pitch for a homer...it was because I was looking there and that what I was trying to do. I could direct the ball by my timing and my bat placement.

To me at best 2k8 system will make it so i will not see those rare situations in which i questioned how player did that...but it is at the cost of control, fluidity and the realistic feel of hitting.

[kingofdmv]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

Dave you are killing me dude.

2. Your comments about hitting make me realize the problem. Some of us have played baseball, we realize that hitting is an act of true hand eye coordination, that the difference between a homer, a foul ball and miss is inches and those inches are determined not just by timing...but by where I chose to swing the ball. Player attributes should give the user room for greater error...but in the end...i am not simming the game...i want to play it. I think some people dont play baseball and are pure gamers and want simple button controls for things and have no idea how it is nothing like real life.

Here's what you don't seem to get though, MOST, not SOME of us who play this VIDEO GAME have never played played organized baseball. Are you suggesting that we tailor the game to the minority of people who have played organized baseball instead of the majority of people who simply want to play a great game of baseball for a few hours in our hectic lives? Do you really want 2KSports to sell even less of these games in the few years left on their contract because there are 3 pages of instructions on how to hit the ball? Don't confuse the game of baseball with making a great, accessible baseball game.

You want total realism, go outside and play the game. I would like an easy to pick up, fun to play and realistic to a point, video baseball game.

[maverick3176]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

Here's what you don't seem to get though, MOST, not SOME of us who play this VIDEO GAME have never played played organized baseball. Are you suggesting that we tailor the game to the minority of people who have played organized baseball instead of the majority of people who simply want to play a great game of baseball for a few hours in our hectic lives? Do you really want 2KSports to sell even less of these games in the few years left on their contract because there are 3 pages of instructions on how to hit the ball? Don't confuse the game of baseball with making a great, accessible baseball game.

You want total realism, go outside and play the game. I would like an easy to pick up, fun to play and realistic to a point, video baseball game.

Ok...i am not saying they should taylor the game to only people who have played a few days in the minors...I am suggesting that a sports sim should actually somewhat simulate playing the game of baseball. Have you ever even played wiffle ball? If you did you would see the system sux. Also the system should be able to make it so peeps who dont want a challenge and want the CPU to take over can get enjoyment and also so people who are hardcore sim guys can have fun too, without having to yawn. The system that I proposed gave options so that it can be enjoyed by all. I am not upset that the game is so simplistic, I am upset because they are only catering to simplistic fans. YOu arent suggesting that a sim not cater to people who have actually played baseball. If you dont like baseball enough to actually play it...then why play a baseball sim ever. I mean after all the have the exclusive license....shouldnt they cater to all types.

but anyway, I will not be complaining as much about the hitting....i just bought a PS3 today..so i will be getting the Show. I am told their hitting system is a bit more sim and not just timing only

[ballin095]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

way too complex.

[kingofdmv]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

YOu arent suggesting that a sim not cater to people who have actually played baseball. If you dont like baseball enough to actually play it...then why play a baseball sim ever. I mean after all the have the exclusive license....shouldnt they cater to all types.

Yes, I am. You can't cater to the minority while ignoring the needs and wants of the majority. There's only so much 2K can do withing the confines of a gamepad to realistically mimic the game of baseball. If you're using more than a couple of button presses or joystick movements to do a single task, you're complicating matters for most people.

I still don't see the correlation between playing the game of baseball and enjoying watching the game at the park or at home. I enjoy watching boxing. Do I really need to put some gloves on and get in the ring to fully appreciate the sport? A ridiculous notion, as is yours. I've been playing OOTP Baseball for years for the managerial and strategic aspect of it. I don't need to sit in the dugout, flash signs and spit sunflower seeds to fully enjoy that aspect of it.

but anyway, I will not be complaining as much about the hitting....i just bought a PS3 today..so i will be getting the Show. I am told their hitting system is a bit more sim and not just timing only

I guess, if you consider guess zone + guess pitch + timing button press to be more sim then you're right. I guess they have sixaxis hitting but I haven't tried that. Don't get me wrong, it's not that The Show doesn't play an excellent game of baseball, it does, but the hitting is no more realistic than 2K7 or 2K8. I take your statement to mean that you're giving up on the 2K8 hitting system without even playing one game? Kind of harsh, isn't it?

[maverick3176]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

Yes, I am. You can't cater to the minority while ignoring the needs and wants of the majority. There's only so much 2K can do withing the confines of a gamepad to realistically mimic the game of baseball. If you're using more than a couple of button presses or joystick movements to do a single task, you're complicating matters for most people.

I still don't see the correlation between playing the game of baseball and enjoying watching the game at the park or at home. I enjoy watching boxing. Do I really need to put some gloves on and get in the ring to fully appreciate the sport? A ridiculous notion, as is yours. I've been playing OOTP Baseball for years for the managerial and strategic aspect of it. I don't need to sit in the dugout, flash signs and spit sunflower seeds to fully enjoy that aspect of it.



I guess, if you consider guess zone + guess pitch + timing button press to be more sim then you're right. I guess they have sixaxis hitting but I haven't tried that. Don't get me wrong, it's not that The Show doesn't play an excellent game of baseball, it does, but the hitting is no more realistic than 2K7 or 2K8. I take your statement to mean that you're giving up on the 2K8 hitting system without even playing one game? Kind of harsh, isn't it?

1. The problem is that it does not work for all audiences...they should have options. Instead they are catering to the group that dont really appreciate the sport instead of catering to all the hardcore and the coach potatoes. Btw...i think understand how to throw a punch and incorporating that into a game is EXACTLY why the FIght Night series is so good. The sim aspect is good...that is why they have changed the throwing, feilding and the pitching controls in 2K.

2. No I havent playe 2K8...I have played every version of 2K even when is was the World Series baseball game. Now, I have read enough on the game, where I understand that the things I hated about 2K7 are in 2K8. I am giving up on the system...2K has made alot of bad decisions and after going on the Show boards it is clear...I am not alone and 2K is actually losing business.

3. This is why there decision is bad...someone like you will probably buy any POS game they put out because clearly you arent too picky. On the other hand they have lost me as a customer despite me being with them for over 10 years. Losing loyal customers is always a bad idea

2.

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

Here's what you don't seem to get though, MOST, not SOME of us who play this VIDEO GAME have never played played organized baseball. Are you suggesting that we tailor the game to the minority of people who have played organized baseball instead of the majority of people who simply want to play a great game of baseball for a few hours in our hectic lives? Do you really want 2KSports to sell even less of these games in the few years left on their contract because there are 3 pages of instructions on how to hit the ball? Don't confuse the game of baseball with making a great, accessible baseball game.

You want total realism, go outside and play the game. I would like an easy to pick up, fun to play and realistic to a point, video baseball game.

I would have to say that you're missing the new wave in gaming. Games like Fifa08, NHL08, NHL2k8, even Assassins Creed are getting deeper and deeper control schemes. They are trying to, through controller input, mimick real life bio-mechanics and actions. Now not everyone is feeling it. They go and buy wii's. Because they don't want total stick control they want "fun." but Fifa08, NHL and Assassin's Creed sold plenty and, better yet, got great reviews. Bring the High Def, CGI character, fully controllable future. Maybe they can find a spot for 2 more buttons on the controller.

[kingofdmv]

Re: The best hitting system EVER. I think I will call it TOTAL REALISM OFFENSE

1. The problem is that it does not work for all audiences...they should have options. Instead they are catering to the group that dont really appreciate the sport instead of catering to all the hardcore and the coach potatoes. Btw...i think understand how to throw a punch and incorporating that into a game is EXACTLY why the FIght Night series is so good. The sim aspect is good...that is why they have changed the throwing, feilding and the pitching controls in 2K.

2. No I havent playe 2K8...I have played every version of 2K even when is was the World Series baseball game. Now, I have read enough on the game, where I understand that the things I hated about 2K7 are in 2K8. I am giving up on the system...2K has made alot of bad decisions and after going on the Show boards it is clear...I am not alone and 2K is actually losing business.

3. This is why there decision is bad...someone like you will probably buy any POS game they put out because clearly you arent too picky. On the other hand they have lost me as a customer despite me being with them for over 10 years. Losing loyal customers is always a bad idea

2.

Wow, the arrogance from your reply is amazing. You know best and anyone that disagrees with you is couch potato that'll play anything that's put in front of them. It can only have one button to press though because we're too ignorant to do anything else. Is that correct? Sorry son, I'm what you call a hardcore couch potato. I'm watching baseball and talking baseball from February till October. Again, just because you've played the game and I never have doesn't give your opinion any more merit than mine.

Listen, if I want a sim game I'll play Out Of the Park Baseball or Puresim, not The Show or 2Kwhatever. If I want a video game with shiny graphics, I'll play those games. I've given up my hope that someone will be able to combine those two types of games, even though High Heat came close.

You want options, I want them to just pick a direction and get it right. If it's toward the sim side, good for them as long as they go for it 100%. I'll buy it if that's the case. Trying to make everyone happy usually means no one is happy in the end. That's all I'm trying to get across.

So go ahead, take your ball and go over to the Show boards. I'm sure you'll be complaining over there in no time also.