New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

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  • MrBradSr
    Rookie
    • Jan 2003
    • 208

    #46
    Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

    Hey Kush, a little off topic. Did you get much time with the retail version of 2k7 and did you happen to use the "perfect slider set" in the slider section here? just wanted to get a little feedback on those sliders from someone who helped design the game. I realy enjoyed those and think they fixed quite a bit that was wrong with the game. I've played over 2 seasons worth of games and can hardly wait for 2k8. Thanks in advance.
    XBL Gamertag: BHoward

    Comment

    • PVarck31
      Moderator
      • Jan 2003
      • 16869

      #47
      Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

      Did anyone hear if he said the PS3 demo has been submitted? I thought i did but there was a lot of static.

      Comment

      • KushGamer
        Rookie
        • Jul 2007
        • 322

        #48
        Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

        Originally posted by MrBradSr
        Hey Kush, a little off topic. Did you get much time with the retail version of 2k7 and did you happen to use the "perfect slider set" in the slider section here? just wanted to get a little feedback on those sliders from someone who helped design the game. I realy enjoyed those and think they fixed quite a bit that was wrong with the game. I've played over 2 seasons worth of games and can hardly wait for 2k8. Thanks in advance.
        Actually I didn't use those sliders. About a month after its release, I stopped playing it completely. As we uncovered more and more about how the hitting engine ACTUALLY worked in that game, I just couldn't play it knowing what I knew about the calculations going on. And with some of the ridiculous things that were in that code, I'm surprised you were able to get something that felt good through the sliders. There were so many dice rolls, so much of it was random. The new system is much more heavily tied to user input. 2K7 even had a dice roll to randomly decide to make your swing timing perfect, when it wasnt, seemingly an attempt to counteract the "3 frames of contact" problem.

        Say there was a frame at 10% of the contact window. One at 40%. And one at 70%. 50% is perfect timing. you swing at 11%. Well you missed that 10% frame, so now your swing registers at the 40% frame. Well, this frame was the closest one to 50%, hey lets do a dice roll and see if we decide to make your swing perfect, since perfect wasn't technically possible. It's you're lucky day! We're gonna fake it and say your swing had perfect timing! When really it was at 11% and pretty much sucked. But you hit a homer anyway, cause, oh yeah, you pushed up too.

        So yeah, knowing that kind of stuff, how could I play 2K7 and take it seriously?

        Comment

        • dodgerblue
          MVP
          • Feb 2003
          • 1239

          #49
          Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

          Originally posted by KushGamer
          . 2K7 results felt random. 2K8 results feel right.
          I am glad you think so and I appreciate your passion for the game. I had fun with 2k7 but it just didn't feel right enough to play for very long. If 2k8 feels like the real thing, we will be happy campers! From your previous posts, it sounds like 2K lost a heck of a programmer.
          Pitchers and Catchers Report; Life Worth Living Again

          Comment

          • dodgerblue
            MVP
            • Feb 2003
            • 1239

            #50
            Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

            Originally posted by KushGamer
            Say there was a frame at 10% of the contact window. One at 40%. And one at 70%. 50% is perfect timing. you swing at 11%. Well you missed that 10% frame, so now your swing registers at the 40% frame. Well, this frame was the closest one to 50%, hey lets do a dice roll and see if we decide to make your swing perfect, since perfect wasn't technically possible. It's you're lucky day! We're gonna fake it and say your swing had perfect timing! When really it was at 11% and pretty much sucked. But you hit a homer anyway, cause, oh yeah, you pushed up too.

            So yeah, knowing that kind of stuff, how could I play 2K7 and take it seriously?
            Wow. That sounds really jacked up! Did it work that way for the cpu too? I mean some games I would pitch about 6" off the plate away and the cpu would still hit it out.
            Pitchers and Catchers Report; Life Worth Living Again

            Comment

            • Mr.Wednesday
              The Magic is back
              • Feb 2007
              • 1927

              #51
              Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

              Originally posted by pjv31
              Did anyone hear if he said the PS3 demo has been submitted? I thought i did but there was a lot of static.
              Yea, it was hard to hear. He did say PS3 and 360.
              PSN: PhiNuPi
              XBL: Payday Loans

              OSFC Champion 2013

              Comment

              • jim416
                Banned
                • Feb 2003
                • 10606

                #52
                Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

                I'm surprised you were able to get something that felt good through the sliders.
                So, it wasn't just me. I can't tell you how many times I found the "right" sliders and to play games with my "right" sliders and shake my head in frustration. I'm glad you said that, because that was probably one of the most frustrating parts, i.e., the time taken to make adjustments to get the game to feel right for me. It just never did.

                Glad to hear you say they work this year.

                Comment

                • KushGamer
                  Rookie
                  • Jul 2007
                  • 322

                  #53
                  Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

                  Originally posted by dodgerblue
                  Wow. That sounds really jacked up! Did it work that way for the cpu too? I mean some games I would pitch about 6" off the plate away and the cpu would still hit it out.
                  Yeah, and I was just talking about determining quality of contact. Don't get me started on the dice rolls that went into determining where the ball actually ended up. It was a mish mash of too many different programmers working on it over the years without a clear view of the big picture. It has a pretty clear , logical flow to it now, IMO, and is documented fairly well. Hopefully, someone will take the time to make sure they understand the system as a whole before diving into any one of its parts to improve it.

                  Maybe someone will look at the game and say, "hey, there arent enough HRs". OK, easy fix. I will bump up the maximum power. Yay, there's more HRs!!! Uh oh, QA is telling me they are hitting them 600 feet. Hmmm... well ok, I'll make sure the ball dies faster over time. Crap, now QA says there's no line drives. Oh, I guess maybe at first instead of raising the max power i should have lowered the contact quality required to hit the ball hard, but i didnt even realize there was something called contact quality, because I blindly dove in and increased the max power looking for the quick and easy fix instead of looking at the entire system.

                  That's kind of a dumbed down example of the type of thing that could happen, but I think you get the point. There's just so much pressure to get things done quickly that it is easy to get in the habit of "quick and easy".

                  Comment

                  • budsticky
                    Pro
                    • Aug 2007
                    • 794

                    #54
                    Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

                    Originally posted by KushGamer
                    Yeah, and I was just talking about determining quality of contact. Don't get me started on the dice rolls that went into determining where the ball actually ended up. It was a mish mash of too many different programmers working on it over the years without a clear view of the big picture. It has a pretty clear , logical flow to it now, IMO, and is documented fairly well. Hopefully, someone will take the time to make sure they understand the system as a whole before diving into any one of its parts to improve it.

                    Maybe someone will look at the game and say, "hey, there arent enough HRs". OK, easy fix. I will bump up the maximum power. Yay, there's more HRs!!! Uh oh, QA is telling me they are hitting them 600 feet. Hmmm... well ok, I'll make sure the ball dies faster over time. Crap, now QA says there's no line drives. Oh, I guess maybe at first instead of raising the max power i should have lowered the contact quality required to hit the ball hard, but i didnt even realize there was something called contact quality, because I blindly dove in and increased the max power looking for the quick and easy fix instead of looking at the entire system.

                    That's kind of a dumbed down example of the type of thing that could happen, but I think you get the point. There's just so much pressure to get things done quickly that it is easy to get in the habit of "quick and easy".
                    This is a perfect example of the argument against releasing sports games every single year. Instead, why not try getting the game right and then having a 2 year development period and just releasing a cheaper roster update in the off year. I know this will never happen because of the business..but this answer is a perfect illustration for why it should from a quality stand point. I'm not speaking directly at 2k8 of course. In fact, EA is the biggest offender with this.

                    Comment

                    • MrBradSr
                      Rookie
                      • Jan 2003
                      • 208

                      #55
                      Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

                      Originally posted by KushGamer
                      Actually I didn't use those sliders. About a month after its release, I stopped playing it completely. As we uncovered more and more about how the hitting engine ACTUALLY worked in that game, I just couldn't play it knowing what I knew about the calculations going on. And with some of the ridiculous things that were in that code, I'm surprised you were able to get something that felt good through the sliders. There were so many dice rolls, so much of it was random. The new system is much more heavily tied to user input. 2K7 even had a dice roll to randomly decide to make your swing timing perfect, when it wasnt, seemingly an attempt to counteract the "3 frames of contact" problem.

                      Say there was a frame at 10% of the contact window. One at 40%. And one at 70%. 50% is perfect timing. you swing at 11%. Well you missed that 10% frame, so now your swing registers at the 40% frame. Well, this frame was the closest one to 50%, hey lets do a dice roll and see if we decide to make your swing perfect, since perfect wasn't technically possible. It's you're lucky day! We're gonna fake it and say your swing had perfect timing! When really it was at 11% and pretty much sucked. But you hit a homer anyway, cause, oh yeah, you pushed up too.

                      So yeah, knowing that kind of stuff, how could I play 2K7 and take it seriously?

                      Wow, I appreciate the very honest and open answer. Its one thing to have a random poster say something negative about the game, but an actual game designer?? Well if nothing else your honesty in this post, makes me feel like you're being legit in all other things in regards to 2k8. for what its worth, I don't use the swing stick, and don't hit a lot of homeruns. I got a lot of low scoring games and played about .600 baseball using the Cubs.

                      I guess what I take from this, is if I liked 2k7, I will love 2k8
                      XBL Gamertag: BHoward

                      Comment

                      • bukktown
                        MVP
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 3257

                        #56
                        Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

                        Kush, I just want to thank you very much for your candor. And for all of the work that you put into fixing the hitting system in 2k8.

                        Comment

                        • KushGamer
                          Rookie
                          • Jul 2007
                          • 322

                          #57
                          Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

                          Originally posted by budsticky
                          This is a perfect example of the argument against releasing sports games every single year. Instead, why not try getting the game right and then having a 2 year development period and just releasing a cheaper roster update in the off year. I know this will never happen because of the business..but this answer is a perfect illustration for why it should from a quality stand point. I'm not speaking directly at 2k8 of course. In fact, EA is the biggest offender with this.
                          I think pretty much every sports game dev agrees that releasing a game 2-3 times a hardware generation is ideal. Fill in the interim with downloadable content. Still have free roster updates, but every year during spring training, do one massive one and charge $5-$10, maybe even $20. Charge for downloadable special teams, unis, stadiums. There has got to be a way to make a profit and give devs enough time and resources to put out a truly new game in every way that feels completely polished.

                          Comment

                          • EnigmaNemesis
                            Animal Liberation
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 12216

                            #58
                            Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

                            Originally posted by KushGamer
                            I think pretty much every sports game dev agrees that releasing a game 2-3 times a hardware generation is ideal. Fill in the interim with downloadable content. Still have free roster updates, but every year during spring training, do one massive one and charge $5-$10, maybe even $20. Charge for downloadable special teams, unis, stadiums. There has got to be a way to make a profit and give devs enough time and resources to put out a truly new game in every way that feels completely polished.
                            /agree

                            I wouldn't mind every other year, if they could have a "episodic content" for the off-season of not releasing a box game, and having new schedules, uni's and quick stadium passes in an update .... with a few sound files for commentary.

                            I also think people would be more excited about the "new version" 2 years later as well.
                            Boston Red Sox | Miami Dolphins

                            Comment

                            • KushGamer
                              Rookie
                              • Jul 2007
                              • 322

                              #59
                              Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

                              Originally posted by EnigmaNemesis
                              /agree

                              I wouldn't mind every other year, if they could have a "episodic content" for the off-season of not releasing a box game, and having new schedules, uni's and quick stadium passes in an update .... with a few sound files for commentary.

                              I also think people would be more excited about the "new version" 2 years later as well.
                              I would think that would definitely kill the malaise surrounding sports game releases. You have got to think it would boost sales of the "box version" considerably, since so many people are turned off every year by it being "the same game". But Madden is among the highest selling titles of any game out there year after year. So, I guess they figure if Madden can milk that cash cow, why can't other sports games? For whatever reason, other sports just dont sell as well. I think this formula worked much better in the genesis days of much smaller teams and much lower expectations of sports games.

                              Comment

                              • EnigmaNemesis
                                Animal Liberation
                                • Apr 2006
                                • 12216

                                #60
                                Re: New interview with Ben Brinkman on The Sports Anomaly.

                                Originally posted by KushGamer
                                I would think that would definitely kill the malaise surrounding sports game releases. You have got to think it would boost sales of the "box version" considerably, since so many people are turned off every year by it being "the same game". But Madden is among the highest selling titles of any game out there year after year. So, I guess they figure if Madden can milk that cash cow, why can't other sports games? For whatever reason, other sports just dont sell as well. I think this formula worked much better in the genesis days of much smaller teams and much lower expectations of sports games.
                                I also think a lot of Madden's success, is that football games are crazy popular compared to other sports games, and a major factor that EA releases the game on any game machine under the son. So it reaches anyone and everyone.

                                But I know personally, I would be more excited about a more polished and added to (especially as games get more and more complex each console cycle) baseball game if it were released every two years. Just thinking about how much they can add, and how much more fresh it would feel. /drools
                                Boston Red Sox | Miami Dolphins

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