A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

[Lisa_Bonami]

Of course, Im kidding about the title. Its food for thought for everyone

My question in regards to the relationship between certain Player Rating fields and their effects on the overall statistical results that unfold on the field:

How do you all feel about players having an ACTUAL RATING for Doubles and Triples and what does this rating actually do under the hood of the game? Is it more fore simming or will it indeed act as an influencing modifer during real gameplay action?

I guess the reason I ask this question is because, a piece of me thinks if a player is given a very highly rated TRIPLES rating in their attributes, does the game engine now prescript certain variables to ensure that that player reaches his ratings 'quota' rather then letting true physics run its course every at bat?

Could these ratings be signs of prescripted algorithms in the batting engine that will yield certain ball placements to gaps, regardless of what the player does to counter adjust defensively (ie pitch location, defensive shifting, etc) just so the player reaches these ratings?


The reason I think of this is because, in a nutshell, when a player gets up at bat, are we just seeing the results of prescripted routines playing out before us in a very polished and concealing manner?....or are we seeing true real time physics enhanced with slight ratings modifiers introduced?


How would the engine handle a player that had a baserunning speed of lets say 15 or 20 but had a TRIPLES rating of 99? How would the engine handle this player's at bat?

Or even this scenario, If a player hit a deep fly ball on a very windy day (wind blowing out to center) could it carry out of the park due to real time physics?....How about the dimmensions of a stadium...would they influence a player's homer and extra base hit totals within this engine? For example, if you played with the Polo Grounds as your home field, would it have real world impact by decreasing your team's homers, increasing their extra base hits, decreasing your Pitcher's Homeruns allowed...ect?

Its all just food for thought to try and have a friendly discussion about how you all feel the Attributes and Ratings of a player interact and influence the actual real time physics and gameplay engine when you play. I remember a big discussion that stemmed from the developers with the Front Page Sports Baseball game using only Contact and Power Ratings as modifiers to influence a player's at bat.

At times in MLB 2K games, I felt that no matter what I did and what kind of pitch I threw, the ball would be hit a certain way to a certain part of the field or out of the park and I was wondering if any of this could be contributing to this?

[baa7]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

How do you all feel about players having an ACTUAL RATING for Doubles and Triples and what does this rating actually do under the hood of the game? Is it more fore simming or will it indeed act as an influencing modifer during real gameplay action?

The ratings are so tied into the sim engine. People who be shocked to discover how good past versions of this game actually play when the individual player ratings -- contact and power, primarily -- are lowered by 50% or so. It starts to look like baseball, as in groundballs, dribblers, bloops, infield singles, and everything NOT having to do with constant flyballs. But the developers can't rate players that way, because the sim stats would be all out of whack. So instead we get players on steroids and Out Of The Park gameplay.

[baa7]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

The reason I think of this is because, in a nutshell, when a player gets up at bat, are we just seeing the results of prescripted routines playing out before us in a very polished and concealing manner?....or are we seeing true real time physics enhanced with slight ratings modifiers introduced?

There was a slider in past 2K games that was responsible for creating the type of scripted gameplay you're talking about. I can't remember the name of it, but I see 2K9 has a Batting Success slider for both user and cpu. This would be the same thing. It's essentially a cheat slider that increases the chances of you or the cpu getting a hit. It will "direct" the ball to fall out of reach of your IF/OF, making defensive shifting entirely redundant. What's the point of shifting fielders if the game programming is choosing to place the ball in the vacated spots on the field? I have always played with this slider at ZERO.

I would guess the Doubles and Triples player ratings in past versions of the game were tied in with this slider. If a player had a high triples rating, the AI would select to send the ball in the gap. If the player had a high doubles rating, the AI would select to send the ball into the corner. Yes, IMO the game is full of scripted elements, and I'm saying I believe the biggest culprit is that Batting Success slider -- it was in the past, definitely.

[brendanrfoley]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

I don't like that there is a triples rating.

In real baseball, a triple is more a function of speed than anything else. Fast base runners like Ichiro or Jose Reyes turn what are doubles for anyone else into triples. But Baa is right - the sim engine needs them.

If turning down power ratings does produce better on field results (but sacrifices sim results), there is simple workaround (on the developers side). A rating "modifier" of sort for user controlled games would do the trick.

[Trevytrev11]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

The way I see it doubles and triples are the product of power (or lack of it), quality contact and speed (and often times hustle).

Craig Biggio was a double monster because he hit the ball hard, but lacked the power of guys like Bagwell and Pujols to consistantly hit the ball over the fence and instead many of his harder hits stayed in the yard. He probably squared up on as many or more balls than his teamate Bagwell, but because of his swing or hiw power, his balls didn't carry over the fence and he would windup on second.

Speed also plays a part because there are a lot of doubles he earned, in which other players would have ended up on first from. He ran hard out of the box knowing that every single was an outfielders hesitation away from being a double.

Triples are more of the same, but I think speed plays a bigger role. Also, it doesn't hurt to be left handed. 9 of the top 10 in triples last year were either left handed or switch hitters.

Ball parks play a role still, but not as much as they did in the early 80's and 90's when some of these stadiums had the old hard turf where a grounder to the left or right of the second baseman would end up rolling to the fence.

If in play the game scripts hits for players to be reflective of their stats (more balls in the gaps just because a guy is supposed to hit doubles), then the logic is flawed in my opinion. Whatever happens when games are simulated doesn't concern me as much as long as the outcomes are realistic, but in game, everything should, IMO, be based of Physics....a double should be the result of me hitting the ball in a location that takes the fielder a little longer to get to, to allow my player to gain an extra base. It should not be predetermined because my player needs a double to get on track for his statistical averages.

[brendanrfoley]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

Whatever happens when games are simulated doesn't concern me as much as long as the outcomes are realistic, but in game, everything should, IMO, be based of Physics.

I see where you're coming from, I just don't know how much I agree with it. High Heat used several factors to judge what happened after a hitter make contact. But very few of them were physics based.

[Lisa_Bonami]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

Wow I see we got some of the Big Brains in here....and you guys fell precisely into my trap!

Exactly!.....And this is why I created this post. I myself almost find the Doubles and Triples Rating an unessecarily and possibly redundant attribute as well! What was just said is what I was thinking when I first saw these ratings in a players profile. it left a very 'unnatural' taste in my mouth and started my wheels turning in a probing kind of way...

I also feel that a Double or Triple should be a purely natural result of a player's speed as well as ability to poke the ball into the gaps....however, do we distinctively need a rating to influence this?...Which brings me back to my original Engine Tester question. Let's say I brought down a player's speed to about 10 or 15 yet left his Triples Rating at 99. What would this do to the game and how would the engine handle??

I personally agree with Baa and feel that my gameplay results should be as real time and natural as possible, of course it should also be enhanced to provide enough variety to depict differences at bat between a Manny Ramirez and a Jose Reyes. But, I dont want the game to completey sacrifice all of that spontenaity just to demonstrate those differences either.

Perhaps its a fine line between statistical accuracy and real time on the fly physics??


Years ago, Earl Weaver Baseball demonstrated a wonderful balance of statistical player individuality and real life physics that didnt cheat. When I say didnt cheat, I mean I was able to build entirely unique ball parks that had huge walls and cavernous outfields and this would entirely change the dynamics of the game as well as the player's performances. Home Run Hitters were now hitting deep outs or more off the wall extra base hits...etc. Heavy winded days would skew results as well depending on the direction of the blowing winds. ...It was brilliant, yet it made normal sense of what you'd expect in a real game.

To me this was wonderful and I was wondering if in today's MLB 2K gameplay, this is reflected in a similar or better yet, as realistic manner....if not, dont you guys think it should?....especially since Earl Weaver Baseball was able to do it back in 1986 with it physics engine on only a floppy disk less than 2mb

[baa7]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

Let's say I brought down a player's speed to about 10 or 15 yet left his Triples Rating at 99. What would this do to the game and how would the engine handle??

I imagine the high triples rating would still "cause" the player to hit more triple-potential hits. But because of his speed, he'd end up with a double or just a single. I don't believe the programming is any more complex than that.

[brendanrfoley]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

I imagine the high triples rating would still "cause" the player to hit more triple-potential hits. But because of his speed, he'd end up with a double or just a single. I don't believe the programming is any more complex than that.

I couldn't of said it any better than that.

[baa7]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

I personally agree with Baa and feel that my gameplay results should be as real time and natural as possible, of course it should also be enhanced to provide enough variety to depict differences at bat between a Manny Ramirez and a Jose Reyes. But, I dont want the game to completey sacrifice all of that spontenaity just to demonstrate those differences either.

Perhaps its a fine line between statistical accuracy and real time on the fly physics??

All sports video games walk that fine line I think. I'm not saying 2K's game is much different than others out there. But the game does have an actual gameplay-altering "cheat" slider that allows you to determine just how much "pop" you what to give Manny Ramirez, for example. The problem with that slider though, is it gives every player the same % of batting success, so I question the whole point of it. It's the player ratings that should define the difference between a hitter like Ramirez and Reyes. The batting success slider simply turns every hitter into Tony Gwynn -- churning out hit after hit.

I should maybe add here that this is what I believe that slider does, based on playing 2K5 through 2K8. I understand if people don't agree, and I'm not meaning to suggest I know for a fact how the game is programmed, because I don't.

[Trevytrev11]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

I imagine the high triples rating would still "cause" the player to hit more triple-potential hits. But because of his speed, he'd end up with a double or just a single. I don't believe the programming is any more complex than that.

Probably, but if so, it seems that logic would be built into (or the combination of) his power, contact, speed and other ratings.

I guess what I am trying to say is hitting triples isn't really a skill, but the result of certain things that are beyond a players control, but are still based on their abilities in other things.

Carl Crawford could hit the same exact ball every time as Chipper Jones and would end up with more triples simply because he is faster and can turn a few of those standup doubles into triples.

I'm hoping the game doesn't say, "he hits a lot of triples, therefore on his next hit, the end result of the ball will be in a location that is likely to earn him a triple". I would hope that it is random and when he puts the exact same swing on the exact same pitch as Chipper Jones, he is standing on third and Jones is on second because he had the speed to stretch it.

Or when Pedrioa hits the exact same pitch as Pujols, he is on second and Pujols is crossing the plate because Pedroi's hit went 365 feet into the gap and Pujols's went 397 over the fence.

I would hope in the end that a great physics engine determines both. The hit happens based on the player's ratings vs the timing and location of the swing vs the speed, spin and location of the pitch. The outcome after that is based on whatever happens.

[Trevytrev11]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

I see where you're coming from, I just don't know how much I agree with it. High Heat used several factors to judge what happened after a hitter make contact. But very few of them were physics based.

I guess if the results feel like the are working then that is fine, but if I am using a cursor or a zone system and I get on top of the ball, the ball has to be hit on the ground. If a rating says that is my players hot zone and he actually usually drives those pitches in the air, then why have the cursor/zone.

I guess cursor would be exact on this and zone wouldn't be though, right? If you select the right zone (one of the nine), there is just as good of chance that your bat will be on top of the ball as it will be under it and there is still just randomness to the outcome.

[brendanrfoley]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

I guess if the results feel like the are working then that is fine, but if I am using a cursor or a zone system and I get on top of the ball, the ball has to be hit on the ground. If a rating says that is my players hot zone and he actually usually drives those pitches in the air, then why have the cursor/zone.

I guess cursor would be exact on this and zone wouldn't be though, right? If you select the right zone (one of the nine), there is just as good of chance that your bat will be on top of the ball as it will be under it and there is still just randomness to the outcome.

Very true. High Heat was pure zone (9 zones). Cursor hitting should be much, much more accurate and physics based. MLB Power Pros used the best cursor hitting system I've ever used.

[Lisa_Bonami]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

Brendan...Exactamundo again!.....Power Play Pros is a puuuuuurrrrrr--fect example of cursor based - real time physics hitting. And what Im getting at here is that if you take a game like Power Play Pros (great example again) and MLB 2K, I dont think you see the same infinite variety in the hitting engine. I may be wrong, but it seems like Power Play Pros yields so much more variable spray hitting across the entire field that is simple a joy to behold. Whereas, playing MLB 2K, you really dont get that same infinite variability in your hits around the field.

In MLB 2K, it almost feels as tho your hitting the ball into repetive lanes or areas of predictability. I may be dead wrong. But Im just not seeing that range of possiblity when compared to Power Plays.

In Power Plays, all kinds of unthinkable types of hits are possbile and do occur, from Sqibs, to high choppers, to looping drops down the line, screaming line drives, etc, etc

In 2K, there is almost, dare I say, a light scripted feel to the variety of ball contact and hit placement....And Im wondering if it has anything to do with the overuse of Attributes such as the Triple, Double and other modifiers that were mentioned here??

I mean if we really break down to simplified analysis....what is the different between a HR Rating and a Power Rating?? Wouldnt someone with a high Power rating, eventually jack alot of balls further, thus resulting in more homers? What is the signifigance of the Homerun Rating on top of that?....to artifically ensure that the player hits a certain number of balls out of the park? Wouldnt that artifically influence/conflict with the physics algorithms already incorporated into the Power Rating itself?

As someone mentioned above, I think the signifigance of certain Ratings or Attributes could just be for actual SIM games in which the CPU needs to employ certain computations to achieve statistical accuracy while perhaps these same Ratings may be turned off during Real Played games and the engine could be just incorporating the contact and power modifiers/ratings to determine outcomes?

I'd love to have one of the MLB 2K designers chime in with their input...I think it could help us understand a bit of the ratings and even how certain Sliders impact them globally.

I personally dont think Wind or Stadium dimmensions play any role in the outcome of a batted ball. For arguments sake, Lets say the player made the same exact contact in a Dodger Stadium versus the Polo Grounds. Do you think the stat engine will now artifically compensate the power generated in the swing and contact made needed to drive that ball out of the polo grounds dead center just so it can satisfy the HR rating during that specific at bat?

[Trevytrev11]

Re: A STAT engine question about 2K9...Deep Thinkers Only...

I mean if we really break down to simplified analysis....what is the different between a HR Rating and a Power Rating?? Wouldnt someone with a high Power rating, eventually jack alot of balls further, thus resulting in more homers?

This is where things can get tricky. Hitting a ball hard doesn't always mean hitting a lot of home runs for players. There are guys who just don't uppercut the ball to generate the backspin necesarry to hit a lot of HR's, but still hit a ton of extremely hard line drives that take guys heads off.

There are also guys on the other side. They jack their share of home runs, but also because of there all or nothing approach, get fooled a lot and hit a lot of ballk weakly.

Mostly (and for video games sake) the correlation should be strong, but there are going to be the odd guys out on both sides.