Coco Crisp to Boston....

[Stu]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

I don't think the Red Sox are being forced to move Marte, I just don't think they value position prospects very much. If they can get a proven player in return, they'll do it 9 times out of 10. However, they've done a good job so far of holding onto pitching prospects such as Lester, Papelbon and Hansen. Let's be realistic here, the Red Sox are not and never will be a team that is content with building their team through the minors.

[GBrushTWood]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

From the Cleveland Plain Dealer:

http://www.cleveland.com/newslogs/plaindealer/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_plaindealer/archives/2006_01.html

7:17 p.m.

Depending on how right-hander Guillermo Mota's physical goes, Coco Crisp could be Boston's new center fielder sometime this week.The Indians and Boston, according to a major league source, are considering a six-player trade that would send Crisp and two low-level minor leaguers to Boston for third base prospect Andy Marte, Mota and another a minor league pitcher. The Indians would then trade Mota to Philadelphia for outfielder Jason Michaels.There's also a chance that the Indians could keep Mota, if he passes his physical, and send David Riske or Arthur Rhodes to the Phillies. If Mota doesn't pass the Indians and Phillies physical, the three-team deal could be scrubbed.

- Paul Hoynes

If Mota ends up in Philadelphia, I find this even more stunning. That would mean the Red Sox could have had Jason Michaels for only Mota. Yet, they decided to acquire Coco Crisp at the cost of Andy Marte.
Honestly, I do not understand how the upgrade from Coco Crisp to Jason Michaels is Andy Marte.
If anybody can, I'd love to hear the explanation. As of now, I detest this trade.

[Misfit]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

I don't think the Red Sox are that high on Marte, personally (they were talking about trading him for Julio Lugo, JULIO FREAKIN' LUGO). He has all of the tools but hasn't put it together at any professional level, including winter ball (where he was benched). There is no guarantee Marte will be as good as advertised. As one poster put it, Brandon Phillips was the top position player in the minors a few years ago and look at him. Or better yet, look at Adrian Beltre who is a very comparable player to Marte. While on the other hand, Crisp has had back to back strong seasons and is only 26 years old. His 2005 season was arguably better than Damon's and he gives the Red Sox a center fielder and a lead-off hitter. We all know Stern wasn't going to cut it at either position, and if they got Michaels he isn't going to hit lead-off for the Red Sox. Nor does Michaels have much upside and his range in center is questionable. Crisp will be here for awhile (unless traded), and it is likely he'll get better as well. I personally have liked Crisp for awhile and I think he is one of the best, young, outfielders in the game and this move puts the Red Sox on top in the East (at least on paper). Would I like to see how Marte could be in a year or two? Yeah, but if I'm the Red Sox and I have this deal presented to me now I make it without hesitation. Position players are just too hard to evaluate as prospects to convince me that this guy is going to be a stud.

[CWood2]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

From the Cleveland Plain Dealer:

http://www.cleveland.com/newslogs/plaindealer/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_plaindealer/archives/2006_01.html

If Mota ends up in Philadelphia, I find this even more stunning. That would mean the Red Sox could have had Jason Michaels for only Mota. Yet, they decided to acquire Coco Crisp at the cost of Andy Marte.
Honestly, I do not understand how the upgrade from Coco Crisp to Jason Michaels is Andy Marte.
If anybody can, I'd love to hear the explanation. As of now, I detest this trade.

Include the phrase "two low level minor leaguers" and the fact that we're giving up a pitching prospect, and I'm about to throw up. If that prospect is Manny Delcarmen, a kid I actually met hours after signing to play for his hometown team, I may very well become violently ill........

What is it about Coco Crisp that Theo feels that potential package above is worth it with Ellsbury moving quickly, a big CF FA class next year, and alternatives seemingly in the same deal??? And if we sign A-Gon to a multi-year deal and block Pedroia from being a contributor this year, I guess someone's going to have to brief me on Theo's long term plan again.

[Stu]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

I think you're highly overrating guys like Marte, Pedroia and Ellsbury. They are decent prospects but none of them are going to make a significant contributions to a team like the Red Sox in the next few years. Coco Crisp on the other hand has two straight years of putting up very good numbers at the major league level. You can't avoid making moves like this just to see what guys like Marte might give you two or three years down the road. As Misfit said, position players are too difficult to project and the Red Sox clearly don't value position prospects like they do pitchers.

[Misfit]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

Ellsbury has a lot to prove still, though Pedroia may make an impact this year. I think it's in Pedroia's best interests to start the year at Triple A because he barely got his feet wet there. If he shows that he's ready then they'll give him a chance because there is no way Alex Gonzalez or Cora are going to be lighting it up this year. That's not to say I agree with the Gonzalez signing, I think they're just throwing money away there, but hey it isn't coming out of my pocket. As for Delcarmen, I want to see the kid succeede but I'm not sure he has it. He isn't ready for the majors right now, that much is certain, and because he's a hometown kid I'd like to see them hang onto him and give him a chance to impress in sprint training and at Pawtucket. If he gets moved in a deal I won't be too sad though. I don't think he'll be included in this deal, though.

[GBrushTWood]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

I think you're highly overrating guys like Marte, Pedroia and Ellsbury. They are decent prospects but none of them are going to make a significant contributions to a team like the Red Sox in the next few years. Coco Crisp on the other hand has two straight years of putting up very good numbers at the major league level. You can't avoid making moves like this just to see what guys like Marte might give you two or three years down the road. As Misfit said, position players are too difficult to project and the Red Sox clearly don't value position prospects like they do pitchers.

Honestly, I am sick to death of people disparaging young players coming through the system. By all available metrics and evaluations (both sabremetric and tradtional scouting) Marte is a STUD prospect and in the top 5 within all of baseball. Guys, this is not Hanley Ramirez we have here (a guy who never really had a solid hitting year).
Andy Marte, 2005 for AAA Richmond: .275/.372/.506. By all sabremetrics studies available, success such as this at AAA has a high rate of success in MLB. Marte also apparently possesses top notch defensive capabilities. Basically his only short comings are his lack of speed, his high strikeouts (which is offset by his high walk rate), and his potential elbow injury. I recall Drayton Moore being quoted as saying Andy Marte was the best prospect the Braves have ever moved. In short, Andy Marte has all the indications of being a damn good baseball player.

I'd like to emphasize that there is no way the Red Sox would be making this deal because they feel Marte is not a good enough ballplayer to play on the Boston Red Sox. They must value Crisp very highly? I really don't know, and this all doesn't make sense to me right now, including the news that another pitching prospect is being thrown in (I doubt it's Delcarmen, but who knows???).

I find it very difficult to believe that Theo, et al are dense enough to make a move like this. There has to be more than meets the eye here, so I'm waiting for more concrete info. If the deal finalizes as it stands now (with Mota presumably being selected out of the 2 other pitchers and being swapped for Michaels), I think this is the worst trade the Red Sox have made since Theo Epstein took over.
I'm not jumping off the bridge yet (though it may sound like it), but I really am opposed to moving a player of Marte's calibre in a transaction for Crisp. It's not like Marte is blocked at 3B either... Lowell isn't the long term solution.

[TheLetterZ]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

From the Cleveland Plain Dealer:

http://www.cleveland.com/newslogs/plaindealer/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_plaindealer/archives/2006_01.html

If Mota ends up in Philadelphia, I find this even more stunning. That would mean the Red Sox could have had Jason Michaels for only Mota. Yet, they decided to acquire Coco Crisp at the cost of Andy Marte.
Honestly, I do not understand how the upgrade from Coco Crisp to Jason Michaels is Andy Marte.
If anybody can, I'd love to hear the explanation. As of now, I detest this trade.

I'm also uncertain how there could be a chance that the Indians elect to keep Mota and trade Riske or Rhodes.

If the Phillies get Mota for Michaels, I'll be pissed. A 32 year old with injury problems, coming off the worst year of his career? I'll pass.

[CWood2]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

I think you're highly overrating guys like Marte, Pedroia and Ellsbury. They are decent prospects but none of them are going to make a significant contributions to a team like the Red Sox in the next few years. Coco Crisp on the other hand has two straight years of putting up very good numbers at the major league level. You can't avoid making moves like this just to see what guys like Marte might give you two or three years down the road. As Misfit said, position players are too difficult to project and the Red Sox clearly don't value position prospects like they do pitchers.

Marte is not a decent prospect cam, he's one of the best. Pedroia could EASILY start for us at short half way through the season, and according to his PECOTA projections, would fair very, very well. As for Ellsbury, I bring him up not because I'm confident he'll be the answer for us in CF should we be allowed to wait, but because skills wise, he looks very similiar to Crisp.

Even if we don't value position prospects like everyone else, we need to adjust how they're valued in trades to organizations like the Indians who have coveted Marte for a while.

[Beantown]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

The simple fact that's going through the FO's mind right now has to be Crisp will help us win this year, as well as years to come...Martent have a huge affect until next year most likely.

[Stu]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

Honestly, I am sick to death of people disparaging young players coming through the system.

It's not disparaging young players, it's simply understanding the fact that most of these prospects do not make significant impacts at the major league level. Marte might be a top 5, 10 or whatever prospect, but he is far from a sure thing. When given the opportunity to get a young player like Crisp who has proven he can produce at that level, it's a no brainer. It's the same reason you give up Anibal Sanchez for Beckett. I could understand if we were getting a 32 year old CF on the downswing of his career but Crisp is 26 and not eligible for FA until 2009.

[GBrushTWood]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

It's also worth mentioning that Guillermo Mota isn't confirmed to be going to Philadelphia. This is only the rumor, which states that Philadelphia has the choice of Mota, David Riske, or Arthur Rhodes. So, I think we should all keep that in mind when discussing the deal. It's not yet clear that Philadelphia would be willing to move Michaels for Mota. This tempers my anger somewhat, though the mere notion of Mota for Michaels has me steaming..

In fact, it seems unlikely, given that I'm 100% sure the Red Sox have contacted the Phillies about Michaels already, and that Riske seems to be a better choice than Mota. Figured it was worth throwing that in.

[Stu]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

Marte is not a decent prospect cam, he's one of the best. Pedroia could EASILY start for us at short half way through the season, and according to his PECOTA projections, would fair very, very well. As for Ellsbury, I bring him up not because I'm confident he'll be the answer for us in CF should we be allowed to wait, but because skills wise, he looks very similiar to Crisp.

Even if we don't value position prospects like everyone else, we need to adjust how they're valued in trades to organizations like the Indians who have coveted Marte for a while.

But they are all still question marks. Yes they could contribute but how does that help us this year? The Red Sox aren't an organization that builds through the minor leagues. To them, position prospects are bargaining chips (Marte) or cheap alternatives that allow you to spend money elsewhere (Youkilis, Pedroia, etc).

I'm not trying to take away from their potential but like I said in my previous posts, when I'm given a choice between potential and proven ML ability, I'll take the proven player every time.

[Misfit]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

Sabremetrics can't predict the future. Bottomline, there is no way of knowing how good Marte will be while Crisp is a proven major-league talent. Marte was atrocious on defense during his brief time in the majors so I don't know where you heard his defense was top-notch.

Michaels will be 30 on May 4th, Crisp won't be 27 until November. Crisp is a longterm solution for the Red Sox while Michaels is not. The only thing he does better than Crisp is draw walks, and thats something Crisp can improve upon. Otherwise he's older, slower, and has less pop. He's also never even had 300 at bats in a season so who knows how he would fare if he had 500 or more. Crisp is clearly a far better player and if given the two any team would prefer Crisp.

The Red Sox dumped Renteria for Marte. If Marte is as good as some people say, then the Braves could have gotten more for him than just an aging shortstop coming off a 30 error season. It is my belief the Red Sox planned on trading him from the beginning, despite anything they may have said. And if they are going to deal him for a position player, then Crisp is exactly the type of player they should target because he is young and has tremendous upside. Lowell can play his gold glove defense this year and if he fails they can always move Youk over to the third and play Snow at first or deal for a corner infielder. The Red Sox under this regime has yet to give away any good prospects that amounted to anything (though we'll have to wait and see on Hanley) and pretty much got Schilling for nothing. Crisp is also a very good player, and to get a good player you have to give something up of value. Marte can't play center for the Red Sox in 2006 but he can get the Red Sox a proven center fielder.

[GBrushTWood]

Re: Boston to trade Marte and Mota for Crisp

It's not disparaging young players, it's simply understanding the fact that most of these prospects do not make significant impacts at the major league level. Marte might be a top 5, 10 or whatever prospect, but he is far from a sure thing. When given the opportunity to get a young player like Crisp who has proven he can produce at that level, it's a no brainer. It's the same reason you give up Anibal Sanchez for Beckett. I could understand if we were getting a 32 year old CF on the downswing of his career but Crisp is 26 and not eligible for FA until 2009.

I understand what you're saying about most prospects flaking out, and I shouldn't have said you are disparaging young players. However, I think we have some fundamental philosophical disagreement here. Here's my counter to what you just said.

Moving Annibal Sanchez + Hanley Ramirez in the Josh Beckett trade is not comparable to this rumored trade. Coco Crisp is not at the same level of Josh Beckett, who I consider to be a superstar player. Coco Crisp is not a core player that you build around. As I said, he's certainly not a bad player, and I really like him a lot as the center fielder (in fact, I like him more than any other option that's been discussed), BUT, not at the cost of Marte.

Marte is a player you can build your team around. He is a middle of the order type hitter, IMO. He's got power. Good on base %. Good defense. He is a stud in the making, IMO.
Yes, he could flame out. But, how do any players become great Major Leaguers then? Surely a lot of them could have flamed out. Why didn't David Wright crap out though? Why are there any good players? Some of these guys are legitimately great, and I think in the case of a guy like Marte, who has a very HIGH ceiling, it is worth waiting to find out.

I think this is just a core, fundamental difference between how we look at constructing a ballclub though. Doesn't mean that I'm right or you're right.


One other thing I just thought of: I find it quite amusing that I am able to make all these arguments about ball players, most of whom I have never even seen play. I may have watched Coco Crisp play less than 8-10 times last year, and I followed him because he was on my roto team, but that's about it. I've never even seen Marte, just read a lot of about him. Seen Mota pitch once or twice with L.A., not after he **** the bed in Florida. I don't even know what Jason Michaels looks like. Gotta love the Internet...