Official Barry Bonds Thread

[BGarrett7]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

But the truth is roids don't make you a better player, sure it can help, but to say it can help all is false.

I don't think anyone is arguing against that statement. You seem to be taking everyone generally talking about Barry and how it improved his performance as a generalization towards all players.

[Thrasha]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

I am saying to say all can be better is false, but that is cool I am tired of arguing with you guys, say what you want. But the truth is roids don't make you a better player, sure it can help, but to say it can help all is false. What Bonds did is wrong and he cheated, but to sit here and say it is the worst thing one can do is a joke. baseball and any sport have had players cheat and coaches. They do it to this day. But that is cool, just keep saying I am defending Bonds. I don't care.

The 50/50 is base on the player alone. Some players hit more HR some don't, but does hitting a HR make you a better player than someone who hits for average. Not many players in baseball take roods, because all their coaches tell them it will hurt your swing. That is all I am saying.

Not really sure if I see a clear rebuttal to what you wondering about Cam. Not sure if I could understand some of what he typed as well.

[Stu]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

What!!!!! Ok, wow. What does all that have to do with being stronger. You have to keep in mind that you can lose bat speed if you get to big, you can't even swing a bat. I am just saying to say that roids make a major league hitter better is false, sure it can for some. But to say all is false. Personally I believe it is something you are born with, with being able to hit a baseball. Sure you can teach as much as you can, but I believe it is God given gift!

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now. I don't understand how your hypotheticals apply to this case. Sure, a guy could hurt his swing if he got too big but that doesn't apply here. Bonds was under a program built for him by Anderson, Conte and who knows what other scientists to make him a better baseball player. In his case, it worked.

If roids and being strong made you a better ball player, then you would see a lot of people testing positive for roids. Especially back then, Coaches that I have played for never even wanted us to work out to much. He said it was bad for our bat speed and swing!

How would we see people tesing positive for it when they just implemented testing in the last few years? You also have to keep in mind that they don't test for HGH and the steroids these guys were taking were specifically designed to beat tests once they did implement a testing policy.

[bkrich83]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

What!!!!! Ok, wow. What does all that have to do with being stronger. You have to keep in mind that you can lose bat speed if you get to big, you can't even swing a bat. I am just saying to say that roids make a major league hitter better is false, sure it can for some. But to say all is false. Personally I believe it is something you are born with, with being able to hit a baseball. Sure you can teach as much as you can, but I believe it is God given gift!

If roids and being strong made you a better ball player, then you would see a lot of people testing positive for roids. Especially back then, Coaches that I have played for never even wanted us to work out to much. He said it was bad for our bat speed and swing!

Those theories that coaches never wanted us to work out much as baseball players are long dead. Todays baseball players are in the gym constantly. I have no idea where you are getting this 50/50 from thing, I'd like to know how you came to those numbers.

No one is arguing the point that steroids aren't going to make someone that doesn't have the abilty to hit a baseball all of a sudden a major league hitter. But you take a major league hitter like Bonds, or Palmeiro or McGwire or Giambi, Brett Boone ,etc. and you give them the ability to enhance their bat speed significantly, and you have a significantly better hitter. All of a sudden those balls you may not have gotten on the sweet spot on, or maybe were out in front of a little bit that may have gone to the warning track, are now 5 rows deep in to the seats. That extra bat speed, allows you to wait on that pitch and really get a great look at it, and still be able to get the bat head on the ball. That outside breaking ball that you would normally just rolll over, all of a sudden now you can get some lift on, and yank out of the park down the line. That simply can not be disputed. Simply put, all of a sudden a major league hitter has the ability to hit balls very hard that they wouldn't normally have the ability to do. In other words make them a better hitter.

I don't see many Major league hitters who've lost bat speed due to steroids. Name me a few.

[Scottdau]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

I don't think anyone is arguing against that statement. You seem to be taking everyone generally talking about Barry and how it improved his performance as a generalization towards all players.

True, but when they say roids make you better that is false. Sure some people might hit more HR, but does that make them a better player. All roids did for Bonds is make him hit HR that is it. It didn't prolong his career, his working out when he was young did that! I will say this Bonds numbers back in to the day are more amazing to me then the ones he has now. I am old school, long ball is overrated.

You guys think I am defending Bonds I can care less about Bonds. I just know by personal experience roids do not make everybody a better ball player, but if you believe that, that is cool!

[bkrich83]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

How would we see people tesing positive for it when they just implemented testing in the last few years? You also have to keep in mind that they don't test for HGH and the steroids these guys were taking were specifically designed to beat tests once they did implement a testing policy.

Excellent points.

And you were right, the science of sport specific workouts designed to enhance specific activities in a given sport have advanced light years in the last decade. Look at guys like Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco and Frank Thomas. Those two are about as big as any major league hitters in the history of baseball, they all generated tremendous bat speed and had some of the most prolific seasons in the history of the game.

[Thrasha]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

True, but when they say roids make you better that is false. Sure some people might hit more HR, but does that make them a better player. All roids did for Bonds is make him hit HR that is it. It didn't prolong his career, his working out when he was young did that! I will say this Bonds numbers back in to the day are more amazing to me then the ones he has now. I am old school, long ball is overrated.

You guys think I am defending Bonds I can care less about Bonds. I just know by personal experience roids do not make everybody a better ball player, but if you believe that, that is cool!

Maybe it's me... But when you hit more homeruns than you normally do, you are getting better.

[bkrich83]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

You guys think I am defending Bonds I can care less about Bonds. I just know by personal experience roids do not make everybody a better ball player, but if you believe that, that is cool!

There are dozens of major league ballplayers that would disagree with you.

[Stu]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

True, but when they say roids make you better that is false. Sure some people might hit more HR, but does that make them a better player. All roids did for Bonds is make him hit HR that is it. It didn't prolong his career, his working out when he was young did that! I will say this Bonds numbers back in to the day are more amazing to me then the ones he has now. I am old school, long ball is overrated.

You guys think I am defending Bonds I can care less about Bonds. I just know by personal experience roids do not make everybody a better ball player, but if you believe that, that is cool!

Good lord man. Nobody is saying steroids make "you" better, we're saying they make MLB caliber hitters better. There is no argument here. And yes, a player who hits more HR's is a better player. You're right though, all it did for Barry was help him hit HR's. At twice the rate he ever did during his career up to that point, making him one of 3 players in 100+ year history of the game to top 700 HR's. Yup that's all, no big deal.

Your personal experience does not apply to this argument because we're talking about MLB caliber hitters like Bonds, not Butch from your Wednesday night softball game.

[bkrich83]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

Maybe it's me... But when you hit more homeruns than you normally do, you are getting better.

As I heard Billy Beane say the other day, the most efficient way to get runners on base to score is to hit the ball out of the yard.

[Scottdau]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now. I don't understand how your hypotheticals apply to this case. Sure, a guy could hurt his swing if he got too big but that doesn't apply here. Bonds was under a program built for him by Anderson, Conte and who knows what other scientists to make him a better baseball player. In his case, it worked.



How would we see people tesing positive for it when they just implemented testing in the last few years? You also have to keep in mind that they don't test for HGH and the steroids these guys were taking were specifically designed to beat tests once they did implement a testing policy.

I am just saying this BK, I have been around a lot of roids uses, in baseball and football in college, and they thought it made them better, but it didn't. Coaches encourage players to not take roids, becaseu it will hurt your swing. But everyone is different, I just think Bonds was already a great player. So it is just opinion to say he is better now. Just because he hit so many HR, I would take his earlier numbers. I feel hitting HR alone should not make you a great player. But that is just my opinion!

[Scottdau]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

Good lord man. Nobody is saying steroids make "you" better, we're saying they make MLB caliber hitters better. There is no argument here. And yes, a player who hits more HR's is a better player. You're right though, all it did for Barry was help him hit HR's. At twice the rate he ever did during his career up to that point, making him one of 3 players in 100+ year history of the game to top 700 HR's. Yup that's all, no big deal.

Your personal experience does not apply to this argument because we're talking about MLB caliber hitters like Bonds, not Butch from your Wednesday night softball game.

That is not true, some better sure, but some lose their swing. It is a 50/50 chance, that is all I am saying. If that was the case everybody would be working out and getting stronger, don't see that yet! Maybe I'll ask Butch!

[bkrich83]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

I am just saying this BK, I have been around a lot of roids uses, in baseball and football in college, and they thought it made them better, but it didn't. Coaches encourage players to not take roids, becaseu it will hurt your swing. But everyone is different, I just think Bonds was already a great player. So it is just opinion to say he is better now. Just because he hit so many HR, I would take his earlier numbers. I feel hitting HR alone should not make you a great player. But that is just my opinion!

Those theories about coaches not wanting player to work out and get bigger are long dead. I don't know one that subscribes to that theory any longer. McGwire and Canseco destroyed that type of thinking. And in the decade and a half since then, sport specific workouts based on increasing strength, quickness and performance have jumped ahead light years.

[Stu]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

I am just saying this BK, I have been around a lot of roids uses, in baseball and football in college, and they thought it made them better, but it didn't. Coaches encourage players to not take roids, becaseu it will hurt your swing. But everyone is different, I just think Bonds was already a great player. So it is just opinion to say he is better now. Just because he hit so many HR, I would take his earlier numbers. I feel hitting HR alone should not make you a great player. But that is just my opinion!

Im not BK but I'll respond anyways.

Again, your experience has no bearing on this argument because we're talking about completely different levels of ability. Bottom line, steroid use among MLB caliber hitters will help most of them to get better. I feel like a broken record saying it, but you're just not understanding that the situation is drastically different at that level.

[bkrich83]

Re: Official Barry Bonds Thread

That is not true, some better sure, but some lose their swing. It is a 50/50 chance, that is all I am saying. If that was the case everybody would be working out and getting stronger, don't see that yet! Maybe I'll ask Butch!

Again, where are you getting this 50/50 number. What major league players perfomance suffered from performance enhancing drugs?